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Cantarone
27th December 2003, 13:01
The Genbukan e-magazine publish an article about the conection between Tanemura Sensei and Daito Ryu, also informs about Tanemura Sensei having awarded recently a Menkyo Kaiden in Daito Ryu Aikijutsu and Daito Ryu Kenjutsu(??????).
I think is a little weird and strange, no offence for Genbukan people, but.......strange.
Anyone with more information about this matter?

Regards,

John Lindsey
27th December 2003, 15:38
Can you provide a link to this article?

Cantarone
27th December 2003, 22:31
you can find it in www.takaharudojo.org in the Iroiro magazine.
but most of the information is in spanish or flemish.
Regards,

John Lindsey
27th December 2003, 22:44
Ah, I looked at it and it appears to say that Tanemura Sensei received Menkyo kaiden. I thought you said he awarded someone menkyo kaiden. I think he received it on Dec 17th? I don't know anything about it, but I will find out. I know he has been studying it for many years, and also Itto-ryu. I will try and find out from what branch it came from...

Neil Yamamoto
27th December 2003, 22:46
How about cut and paste the section you have in question for us? My spanish is rusty to sort through all of it.

Cantarone
27th December 2003, 22:57
Originally posted by John Lindsey
Ah, I looked at it and it appears to say that Tanemura Sensei received Menkyo kaiden. I thought you said he awarded someone menkyo kaiden. I think he received it on Dec 17th? I don't know anything about it, but I will find out. I know he has been studying it for many years, and also Itto-ryu. I will try and find out from what branch it came from...

Yes John, you right, Sorry, my bad(english).
I prefer not to cut and past, with that maybe Im breaking some copyright.
BTW, Itto-ryu means Daito Ryu Kenjutsu? Because Tanemura Sensei also got a Menkyo kaiden in that ryu.

John Lindsey
27th December 2003, 23:08
I do not think so, but I am trying to find out the story now. I know that Tanemura Sensei studied under Sato Kimbei, and I think he trained under Yamamoto Kakuyoshi. In our Kokusai Jujutsu Renmei, a little bit of Daito-ryu is studied for godan, which I am working on, so this is all very interesting. Tanemura Sensei once said that it is important to continue to study martial arts, no matter your age or how much you think you already know.

MarkF
28th December 2003, 09:51
There is a thread in Spanish on the subject, where one poster is questioning the validity of Tanemura actually having actually studied it and whether or not this is something which attracts more attention, and by that more students, and such.

The poster who answered said he had written the article, that he had seen with his own eyes and that the proof is there in the densho (prueba=densho?).

He says that Grand master Tanemura has a large and successful school, the Genbukan, and doesn't need to attract anyone or anything, that he had received, on December 10, the menkyo kaiden in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu.

This is what it says about the subject:

"Siempre estoy abierto a nuevas opiniones. aparte del Menkyo Kaiden obtenido el 17 de diciembre 2003 (sensei me lo ha confirmado el mismo dia por teléfono) tambien ha tenido entrenamiento en Daito Ryu / Hakko Ryu por parte de Sato Kinbei."

My Translation (and I see E-budo has been mentioned on that forum by the poster who started this thread):

I am always open to other opinions, and apart from the Menkyo Kaiden received on the 17th of december 2003 (sensei has confirmed it to me himself the same day on the telephone) he also had training in Daito-Ryu/Hakko-ryu under Sato Kinbei.

another copy/paste:

"...tengo la fortuna de conocer a mucha gente que si la practica y que dirigen dojos, tanto en Hokkaido, Tokyo, Osaka y otras ciudades japonesas, ninguno de ellos ha oido hablar de esa supesta conexion y mucho menos de la legitimidad de un nuevo Menkyo Kaiden."

Translation (and I apologize to Cantarone if I have misunderstood any of this):

...I have the good fortune of knowing/meeting many people who train/practice it and who run dojo[in Daito-Ryu], many in Hokkaido, Tokyo, Osaka and other Japanese cities, none of them have heard anything said of the supposed connection, much less the legitmacy of a new Menkyo Kaiden."

As Neil asked for cut and pastes, I've left out the name of the other party in the thread on the forum of that website and only took what was directly relevant on the subject.


Mark

Cantarone
28th December 2003, 23:16
Mark,
Traslation is correct. Before start this topic I asked directly to Genbukan Spain about the new menkyo kaiden and I mentioned that if the explanation does not look so convincing I will post in this forum where some specialist in daito ryu can verify the authenticity of the menkyo kaiden.
Its not my intention to start any flame war and I got the feeling that the person who runs the genbukan spanish website is an honest and dedicated person. Is just that a mekyo kaiden is a very serious thing and I will like to know the legitimacy of the menkyo of Tanemura Sensei.
Regards

Renshi
29th December 2003, 20:37
He says that Grand master Tanemura has a large and successful school, the Genbukan, and doesn't need to attract anyone or anything, that he had received, on December 10, the menkyo kaiden in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu.

On the 17th of december 2003 in a telephone conversation between myself and Tanemura Sensei , Sensei told me the following :


I just returned from Okinawa and I could receive Menkyo Kaiden in Daito Ryu Aiki and sword

These are exactly Sensei's words.
And this is what can be found in the membercenter forum of the spanish website.

Sincerely

Nathan Scott
29th December 2003, 22:17
Wow, this is all news to me.


I know that Tanemura Sensei studied under Sato Kimbei, and I think he trained under Yamamoto Kakuyoshi.

John, this relationship between Sato Kinbei and Yamamoto Kakuyoshi appears to be legit (though I don't know to what degree either one of them learned the art). These two seem to have issued densho pretty freely though, judging by the number of people claiming lineage to one of both of them. Yamamoto is credited as being the last student of Takeda Sokaku, and is listed in his eimeiroku as such.

Here is an existing threadon Sato Kinbei:

Sato Kinbei and Daito ryu (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15143)

Didn't know that Tanemura Sensei ever studied any Daito ryu, and I definitely have not heard of Daito ryu in Okinawa!

For the record though, just about anyone being issued a Menkyo Kaiden in Daito ryu is going to have a tough time being accepted by the DR community. Kondo was issued a MK by Tokimune, and as such, may be able to issue MK himself. The only other branch holding a Menkyo Kaiden (specifically) in DR is the Kodokai, and I don't know how the MK issue is handled within the Kodokai (Horikawa Kodo, founder of the Kodokai, was issued MK by Sokaku/Tokimune).

Interesting,

chrismoses
29th December 2003, 22:28
I was under the impression that there was no Menkyo Kaiden for weapon arts (sword specifically) per se in Daito Ryu curriculum. Anybody else know more about this than I?

Chris Li
29th December 2003, 22:56
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
John, this relationship between Sato Kinbei and Yamamoto Kakuyoshi appears to be legit (though I don't know to what degree either one of them learned the art). These two seem to have issued densho pretty freely though, judging by the number of people claiming lineage to one of both of them. Yamamoto is credited as being the last student of Takeda Sokaku, and is listed in his eimeiroku as such.

Sato has a site (with an English section) here (http://www.jujutsu.com). Sato Kinbei was actually a doctor, and the site lists a long list of arts that he was certified to teach in. He taught Yoshimaru Keisetsu, who has published a number of books on Daito-ryu in Japanese, and who was originally a fairly senior student of Yukiyoshi Sagawa before leaving him for Sato and Yamamoto.

Other than that I can't speak for legitimacy one way or the other.

Best,

Chris

Brian Griffin
29th December 2003, 22:56
Dear Mr. Vermeeren,

Thank you for attempting to clarify this matter.
I believe some of the misunderstanding may be due to the poly-lingual nature of this discussion.
It appears that a conversation in (I presume) Japanese has been translated into Spanish, and the Spanish has then been re-translated into English.
This sort of thing can often allow unintended inaccuracies to creep in.

Originally posted by Renshi
On the 17th of december 2003 in a telephone conversation between myself and Tanemura Sensei , Sensei told me the following :

I just returned from Okinawa and I could receive Menkyo Kaiden in Daito Ryu Aiki and sword
These are exactly Sensei's words.
In the earlier posts, you reported that Tanemura s. received a menkyo kaiden on December 17.

In this quote you report that the conversation took place on December 17, and that Tanemura s. said he "could receive Menkyo Kaiden."

In English, that verb construction is used to describe a future possibility that is uncertain. It is not used to describe an event in the past, nor is it used for a future event whose outcome is already certain.

Let me illustrate by re-translating (back into Spanish) the quote that you posted:

Acabo de regresar de Okinawa y es posible que yo pueda recibir Menkio Kaiden...
Is that what Tanemura said to you?

If so, that's very different from claiming that Tanemura has received menkyo kaiden.

Would it be possible for you to report Tanemura s.'s words in the language he spoke them?

If he has received menkyo kaiden, from whom did he receive it, and how did that individual gain the authority to grant menkyo kaiden?

John Lindsey
29th December 2003, 22:58
I did ask Tanemura Sensei about this via email, and it seems he does not want to say anything at this time. He is rather a private person in regards to his own training. For instance, I do not know what certification he has in Itto-ryu or iaido, but I know he has studied both. Elements of Daito-ryu have been in our KJJR system since I started back in 1994.

John Lindsey
29th December 2003, 23:07
Let me translate a little of what Tanemura Sensei said via English, based on what I know about how he speaks. "Could receive" means that he completed the requirements and did receive it. Another way of translating it would be "was able to receive, and did receive."

While his English is very good, it can be confusing if you are not familiar with how he speaks.

Nathan Scott
30th December 2003, 00:14
So John, the Daito-ryu type techniques you've been learning - are they similar to anything you've seen in the other popular DR branches (videos, photos)?

Just curious types of things might have been included in Tanemura S.'s art.

Regards,

Cantarone
30th December 2003, 03:52
I do not doubt that Tanemura Sensei HAS receive a MK in Daito Ryu, if he and people from Genbukan says so, there is no point to doubt about it. I guess that they are honest people.
According to me, the issue begin with WHO gave that MK and if that MK have any legitimation. Personally, I do not think so.
Besides, I'm still puzzle about the MK in Daito Ryu Kenjutsu.
Finally, one thing is to have some techniques of Daito in the curriculum of Genbukan jujutsu and another completely different thing is to claim a full knowledge or mastership of Daito Ryu.
There are very few real masters and legitimate people of Daito Ryu, I think most of us know their names and I'm sorry but Tanemura Sensei is not one of them.
Most probably Tanemura Sensei is a great martial artist, honestly speaking I do not know much about him, but a MK in Daito Ryu do not appear suddenly and even less, refuses to speak about his MK and its origin.
I can say that I'm MK in any ryu, but as I'm refusing to give more details or explanations I want all of you to believe my legitimation(that is what Tanemura wants to). No, that's not the way.
Regards,

John Lindsey
30th December 2003, 04:13
Please remember that this whole thing started not because Tanemura Sensei suddenly announced to the world the MKD, but rather because he told one of his senior students, who then posted it to the internet. At least that is how I think it happened.

So, it is not like he is making a big deal about it, and not saying anything to back it up. He is not saying anything at all about any of it, at this time.

BTW, there is not a Genbukan Jujutsu, but two distinct organizations, with the Kokusai Jujutsu Renmei being the 3nd one.

Renshi
30th December 2003, 07:05
Let me translate a little of what Tanemura Sensei said via English, based on what I know about how he speaks. "Could receive" means that he completed the requirements and did receive it. Another way of translating it would be "was able to receive, and did receive."

John is correct here. Sensei spoke to me in english.

All other details concerning to his Menkyo Kaiden are his to share or to keep private.
If Sensei doe not want to speak out about this matter on this moment than I will surely not do it in his place as it is not my task.

Sincerely,

Cantarone
30th December 2003, 11:04
Originally posted by John Lindsey
Please remember that this whole thing started not because Tanemura Sensei suddenly announced to the world the MKD, but rather because he told one of his senior students, who then posted it to the internet. At least that is how I think it happened.

So, it is not like he is making a big deal about it, and not saying anything to back it up. He is not saying anything at all about any of it, at this time.

BTW, there is not a Genbukan Jujutsu, but two distinct organizations, with the Kokusai Jujutsu Renmei being the 3nd one.

No John, everything starts because it has been publish an article in a Genbukan oficial e-magazine the MK news and the "strong" conections between Daito Ryu and Tanemura Sensei.
What I do not like are the double standars, if someone claim an lineage or MK, in this very website its everything analize, why not with Tanemura? Because he refuses to speak about it? That only make the whole thing more suspicious.

Renshi
30th December 2003, 11:16
No John, everything starts because it has been publish an article in a Genbukan oficial e-magazine the MK news and the "strong" conections between Daito Ryu and Tanemura Sensei.


The Iroiro no Mono is not as you say an official Genbukan magazine but the Takaharu Dojo member magazine . The magazine only speaks in name of the Takaharu dojo , all written in it is my responsibility and not Tanemura Sensei's.
The magazine is published in dutch and spanish since the Takaharu Dojo members speak either one of both languages.
If it were an official Genbukan magazine it would have been written in english.


¿ Tienen Daito Ryu/Hakko Ryu y Takeda Ryu lazos con nuestras artes marciales ?

Sí, muy cierto. Aparte del hecho que las conexiones históricas existen aún el hecho de que Tanemura Sensei ha entrenado en estos sistemas a través de Sato Kinbei Sensei y que él cuenta con los menkyos y denshos necesarios para poder impartir clase en ellas.

This is the spanish text of the article you are referring to. The other post about Sensei's "new" menkyo kaiden titles is not from the magazine but from the spanish website.

Cantarone
30th December 2003, 11:40
Originally posted by Renshi
The Iroiro no Mono is not as you say an official Genbukan magazine but the Takaharu Dojo member magazine . The magazine only speaks in name of the Takaharu dojo , all written in it is my responsibility and not Tanemura Sensei's.
The magazine is published in dutch and spanish since the Takaharu Dojo members speak either one of both languages.
If it were an official Genbukan magazine it would have been written in english.



This is the spanish text of the article you are referring to. The other post about Sensei's "new" menkyo kaiden titles is not from the magazine but from the spanish website.



So, and please correct me if I'm wrong. Tanemura Sensei got a MK in Daito Ryu akijutsu and Daito Ryu Kenjutsu(again, I do not know what the hell is this, but anyway....) but he do not want to speak about it.
There are real and strong conections between Tanemura Sensei and Daito Ryu(conections that no one else had discover yet).
Ok, I guess that now we should sit, shut the mouth up and wait until Tanemura wants to speak about his Daito, most probably at the time to include Daito in his teaching(I bet for it).

Just one question, did you publish or did you made any public announcement about the Mk of Tanemura Sensei? If so, then I think that people interested about Tanemura's Daito can ask for its legitimacy.

Nathan Scott
30th December 2003, 17:45
Mr. Cantarone,

The problem is that ANYONE can claim anything in any art. I can claim to be a Menkyo Kaiden in the Genbukan, but if I don't tell anyone who awareded it to me or show evidence of this award, very few people will believe me.

I mentioned previously that I've never heard of Daito ryu in Okinawa. There are some groups in Kyushu, but most of them are the Saigo-ha group (where they are centered), perhaps some of Kondo's group, and maybe a few individuals from other branches scattered around down there. I also mentioned that there are only one or two recognized instructors in Daito ryu that may have the authority to issue a Menkyo Kaiden in the art, and frankly, we would have heard about it if there were someone well known like Tanemura Sensei training seriously enough and for enough years to have earned a Menkyo Kaiden above all the other senior instructors who are all well known.

"Daito ryu kenjutsu" is new to me as well, and doesn't sound right.

But I'm all for being polite about this, and willing to wait until or if more information is offered.

Regards,

Cantarone
31st December 2003, 02:03
Mr.Scott,
I agree with you, to be polite and politically correct is clever and advisable, even the clues indicate something wrong.
Normally when something looks fake finally turn out to be fake, but time will show the truth, we will see...........
Still, is very sad because, and in that I'm sure, is all about MONEY.
Regards.

Cantarone
1st January 2004, 09:04
I just found the public announcement of the MK of Tanemura Sensei, is in the most important martial arts forum in Spain.

http://www.hispagimnasios.com/foros/viewtopic.php?t=10155


Translation is(more or less)

"After some years of training under a Master in Hokkaido, Tanemura Sensei has achieve a MKD in Daito Ryu Aikijutsu and Daito Ryu Kenjutsu.
Those ryu are teach in the Kokusai Ju jutsu Renmei as well as Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Asayama Ichiden Ryu , Yagyu Shingan Ryu , Tenshin Ryu , Bokuden Ryu , etc...

In the coming issue of Iroiro No Mono you will find an article about Daito Ryu and its conections(relations) with Sato Kinbei, Tanemura Sensei and Takeda Ryu"

Which means that Genbukan is now going to teach Daito Ryu?????????
As I said, is all about money.

Renshi
2nd January 2004, 09:49
Which means that Genbukan is now going to teach Daito Ryu????????? As I said, is all about money

"In his mind the thief thinks everybody steals"

Techniques of Daito Ryu are already been instructed for years now in different DAN levels of the KJJR program

chrismoses
2nd January 2004, 17:30
The techniques of Daito Ryu have also been taught for years within mainline Aikido but to claim a Menkyo Kaiden in the art is a very bold statement. Claiming a Menkyo Kaiden in Daito Ryu *Kenjutsu* makes it not only bold but suspect. With as few legitimate Menkyo Kaiden holders as there are in the world (and thus as few who are in the position to award another Menkyo Kaiden) any new license should be well known and properly announced and documented. Anyone asked Stan about this? I'd be curious to know what he thought. I'm all for being respectful, but this includes the respect for Daito Ryu and it's rather rarified licensing.

Disclaimer: yes I know that Aikido is different than Daito Ryu, I'm assuming the arguments made for what makes it different would hold to techniques taken out of context of the Daito Ryu curriculum and taught within the art in question as well. Just wanted to make sure that assumption was clear.

John Lindsey
2nd January 2004, 17:43
Which means that Genbukan is now going to teach Daito Ryu?????????
As I said, is all about money.

Really? What special knowledge lets you make such a claim? I am very surprised that you would even say such a thing, and it leads me to think that you do not have the best intentions in this whole affair.

As I said before, it will never be taught as part of the Genbukan. I doubt that we will see any change to the KJJR system as well. I suspect that it will be like our Itto-ryu training, you will have to move to Japan to study it. So far (as far as I know), only Kotaro Tanemura is studying Itto-ryu with his father. We may see some Daito-ryu at a taikai, but it will never be the focus of our training. There will be no change to the kyu or dan system. If one wants to study Daito-ryu, they will have to wait until after 3rd dan and request it, only after studying Asa Yama Ichiden ryu probably, since that is how Tanemura Sensei likes to do it...

Once again, until Tanemura Sensei or his teacher release some kind of formal statement, we can't say very much until we know the facts...

scoundrel
2nd January 2004, 18:22
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
I mentioned previously that I've never heard of Daito ryu in Okinawa.

There is one DR study group in Okinawa. I've attended one of their seminars they sponsored for an instructor from the Kodokai.

John Lindsey
2nd January 2004, 18:53
Forget about Okinawa, unless you want to talk about Tanemura Sensei's vacation :). Hokkaido is what you want...

Cantarone
3rd January 2004, 06:44
Originally posted by John Lindsey
Really? What special knowledge lets you make such a claim? I am very surprised that you would even say such a thing, and it leads me to think that you do not have the best intentions in this whole affair.

As I said before, it will never be taught as part of the Genbukan. I doubt that we will see any change to the KJJR system as well. I suspect that it will be like our Itto-ryu training, you will have to move to Japan to study it. So far (as far as I know), only Kotaro Tanemura is studying Itto-ryu with his father. We may see some Daito-ryu at a taikai, but it will never be the focus of our training. There will be no change to the kyu or dan system. If one wants to study Daito-ryu, they will have to wait until after 3rd dan and request it, only after studying Asa Yama Ichiden ryu probably, since that is how Tanemura Sensei likes to do it...

Once again, until Tanemura Sensei or his teacher release some kind of formal statement, we can't say very much until we know the facts...

Mr.Lindsey,
Are you surprise with my statment? What´s the point of your comments about my intentions?

My intentions are very simple, to point out a MK in Daito Ryu that looks fake. What´s wrong with that? It happens every day in this website, just check Baffling and Bad Budo. If I wanted to be unpolite, I could post this thread in the Bad Budo Section straightawy.
And when someone is claiming a MK which is fake, which reason is behind such claiming? Money, pride, I can not think about any other reason.
And what happen when the person who claims the MK does not want to talk about it and to give more details? Simple, it looks even more fake.
I do not want to think that your post is motivated because you are a Genbukan member, otherwise and if that is the case, please let me know(And to the rest of the forum)when you are posting as a moderator or as a Genbukan member. Mode Moderator/Mode Genbukan will do.
I apreciate many things of this website, specially the tremendous knowledge of some of its members and the impartiality, I hope that even if we talk about Tanemura Sensei, E-Budo is not going to lose that impartiality. If that is the case, please feel free to expel me as a member and to erase all my post, this is your "house" and you can do anything you wish to.
Regards,

Gary Gabelhouse
10th January 2004, 04:43
Hello All,

My Daitoryu Aikijujitsu teacher is Kenkichi Ohgami-Sensei from Nishinomiya, Japan--a senior student of Takuma Hisa. I recently received an email from him deriding the crop of those claiming Menkyo Kaiden. Many named in this link, including very LARGE names in Daitoryu have never received, in a legitimate way, Menkyo Kaiden. Simple as that.

Takuma Hisa received Menkyo Kaiden from Sokaku Takeda--I have seen the proof of that. Some claiming Menkyo Kaiden in Daitoryu, in fact, did not--for there was no one with which they studied to offer such--legitimately.

My perspective is to drop all of this Menkyo Kaiden business and train. It is my personal belief that NO ONE living today has receieved a Menkyo Kaiden in the Daitoryu line of Sokaku Takeda.

Best Regards,
Gary Gabelhouse

Finny
10th January 2004, 09:30
So... can we assume you're saying the man who recieved MK from the son of Sokaku Takeda is ************

Cos it would seem to me that recieving Menkyo from Tokimune would kinda put you in Sokaku's 'DaitoRyu line'.:rolleyes:


ADMIN NOTE: DO NOT CUSS!

Nathan Scott
10th January 2004, 23:12
Folks who have been following this forum for a while know that I don't have reservations about asking "hard questions" to those making suspicious claims, usually regarding the use of a specific art name (as opposed to the catch-all names, like aiki-jutsu, etc.).

First of all, I've yet to see Tanemura Sensei "bragging" or claiming anything out side of something that may have been said over the phone to one of his students. This is really not much to go on. We could ask that Tanemura Sensei offer a statement regarding this subject, but I don't think that it is right to be jumping all over him or anyone else until we have at least "heard the claim" and in most cases give the other party a chance to offer their side of the story.

Also, ANYONE can claim to have any rank IF someone awarded it to them. It might not in all cases be wise, moral, or legitimate, but the question lies with WHO awarded the rank - not as much with who received it. If someone is awarded a rank by someone that THEY KNOW is completely bogus, they should not ethically claim it. But since we can't prove what person believes or not, we find out who awarded a given rank, and get one step closer to understanding the weight of such a rank and perhaps the context in which it was given. Making claims and having those claims respected by your peers are two different things. As I said before, let's wait and see what comes of this for a little longer before we all freak out. Tanemura Sensei is not some back-yard flookie with no formal experience. A little tact wouldn't kill any of us, especially on John's forum.

As far as who really has "orthodox" MK, and whether there really is a "mainline", etc., suffice it to say that (believe it or not) there is still a great deal of DR dirt and politics that is not public knowledge. Much of it probably shouldn't be, but those in the art are more likely to know what the politics are than those surfing the internet are. Not to say that there all DR members are objective or without an agenda, but... ;)

Just some things to consider,

Gary Gabelhouse
11th January 2004, 01:24
Hello All,

I respectfullly stand by my words. This Menkyo Kaiden nonsense is just that--nonsense. No one with which we currently train--myself included, have received such, I am certain. I have seen the postcards and correspondence from the the 1960's and 1970's. No one has mastered the entire art in the last two generations from Sokaku Takeda.

However, if you need to believe...then do so. As Bob Ross says, "It's your world, and sometimes we have to make some big decisions in our world."

In Budo,
Gary Gabelhouse

Chris Li
11th January 2004, 02:07
Originally posted by Gary Gabelhouse
I respectfullly stand by my words. This Menkyo Kaiden nonsense is just that--nonsense. No one with which we currently train--myself included, have received such, I am certain. I have seen the postcards and correspondence from the the 1960's and 1970's. No one has mastered the entire art in the last two generations from Sokaku Takeda.

Well, I have to say that "mastery" of the art and whether or not a menkyo kaiden was issued legitimately are, basically speaking, two seperate issues. Kodo Horikawa, Kondo Katsuyuki, and Takuma Hisa are all generally accepted as having received menkyo kaiden legitimately. On the mastery side, I suppose that if anyone can be said to have "mastered" the entire art it would have to be Sagawa Yukiyoshi, although there are others out there too...

Best,

Chris

Chris Li
11th January 2004, 02:09
Originally posted by Gary Gabelhouse
My perspective is to drop all of this Menkyo Kaiden business and train.

Then why get involved in a discussion on the topic?

Best,

Chris

Nathan Scott
14th April 2004, 21:27
Hi all,

A few things:

I've renamed this thread to better describe the contents and to enhance information searches.

Also, I came across an old thread in this forum that may be relevant:

Hokushin Aiki-Bujutsu/ Tanemura Katsumi (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1110)

Any chance that these "Tanemuras" are getting confused? Did Tanemura Shoto ever go by the name Katsumi or some other first name?

I noticed the following reference to "Takeda-ryu" in the translation of this announcement:


"In the coming issue of Iroiro No Mono you will find an article about Daito Ryu and its conections(relations) with Sato Kinbei, Tanemura Sensei and Takeda Ryu"

I wonder if we are talking about the Nakamura-ha Takeda-ryu group? They seem to have had some relation to Sato Kinbei and Takamatsu Toshitsugu:

Takeda ryu Aiki no Jutsu/ Ichio Oba (Seibuden) & Nakamura Hisashi (Nakamura-ha) (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15229)

Any new news on this subject to report from anyone in under Tanemura Shoto Sensei?

George Kohler
14th April 2004, 21:51
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Any chance that these "Tanemuras" are getting confused? Did Tanemura Shoto ever go by the name Katsumi or some other first name?

No, not the same person. Tanemura sensei's given name would be Tsunehisa. I personally think the Tanemura Katsumi was made up by whoever it was that started Hokushin.

Filip Poffe
3rd May 2004, 22:18
Dear all,

Tanemura Sensei's title in Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu is Kyoju Dairi (certified instructor).

If Tanemura Sensei feels the need to explain more about this, I'm sure he will do. The rest are rumours ...

All the best,

Jeffery Brian Hodges
4th May 2004, 04:57
As for the comment of Daito ryu sword, I would venture to say given all of sensei's study of Itto-ryu and its connection to Daito ryu that is probably what meant, Ono-ha Itto ryu that is.

Kendoguy9
21st May 2007, 05:13
Hello all,

I'm sorry for bumping this old thread but I think if I started a new one Mr. Scott would just have to merge them anyway.

A few years ago when this thread was started Mr. Tanemura was not claiming any rank in Daito-ryu, and everything was hearsay from a few private phone calls. While searching the net about Daito-ryu I stumbled across the Genbukan/Kokusai jujutsu website. It looks like Mr. Tanemura now is officially claiming menkyo kaiden in Daito-ryu (5/20/2007; http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?ryu_soke). I am very curious about this.

You can count the number of menkyo kaiden level Daito-ryu people on one hand (Mr. Hisa, Mr. Horikawa, Mr. Inoue?, Mr. Kondo). Last I heard Mr. Tanemura was studying with the late Mr. Sato and Mr. Nagao, both students of Mr. Yamamoto. Since none of them had menkyo kaiden, and only kyoju dairi I can't see how they could have issued a menkyo kaiden. Since there are a number of Genbukan members on this forum I hope someone can help me better understand what is going on. Maybe the title awarded was kyoju dairi, and menkyo kaiden is a mistake by the webmaster?

Below please find the list currently appearing on the Genbukan website:

Martial Arts Organizations
Genbukan World Ninpo Bugei Federation - President
Kokusai Jujutsu Renmei Federation - President
Nihon Kobudo World Federation - President

Mastered Ryu-Ha / Schools
Hontai Yoshin Takagi Ryu Jujutsu - 18th Soke
Hontai Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu - 18th Soke
Gikan Ryu Koppo-Jutsu - 14th Soke
Asayama Ichiden Ryu Taijutsu - 18th Soke
Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin-Ryu - 18th Soke
Amatsu Tatara Bumon & Shumon - 58th Soke
Shinden Tatara Ryu Taijutsu - 55th Soke
Shinden Kito Ryu Bojutsu - 55th Soke
Bokuden Ryu Jujutsu - 15th Soke
Itten Ryushin Chukai Ryu Jujutsu - 3rd Soke
Chinese Martial Art Hakkesho - 5th Denjin
Araki Shin Ryu - Menkyo Kaiden
Yagyu Shingan Kacchu Yawara - Menkyo Kaiden
Tenshin Koryu / Shindo Tenshin Ryu Kenpo - Menkyo Kaiden
Kijin Chosui Ryu Daken-Taijutsu - Menkyo Kaiden
Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu Yamamoto-Ha - Menkyo Kaiden
Mugen Shinto Ryu Iai-Jutsu - Menkyo Kaiden
Shinden Fudo Ryu Daken-Taijutsu Tanemura-Ha - Soke
Shinden Fudo Ryu Taijutsu Tanemura-Ha - Soke
Kukishinden Happo Biken-Jutsu Tanemura-Ha - Soke
Togakure Ryu Ninpo Tanemura-Ha - Soke
Gyokko Ryu Kosshi-Jutsu Tanemura-Ha - Soke
Koto Ryu Koppo-Jutsu Tanemura-Ha - Soke

Trained / Studied Schools
Iga Ryu Ninpo
Kumogakure Ryu Ninpo
Gyokushin Ryu Koppo-jutsu
Tenjin Shinyo Ryu Ju-jutsu
Yoshin Ryu Ju-jutsu
Onoha Itto Ryu Ken-jutsu
Shindo Munen Ryu Ken-jutsu
Taiwado Ju-jutsu
Shindo Muso Ryu Jo-jutsu
Kageyama Ryu Ken-jutsu
Kito Ryu Ju-jutsu
Shin Kage Ryu
Shikomizue Jutsu
Takeda Ryu Aiki-no-jutsu
Kendo
Judo
Karate
Aikido
Taikyoku-Ken
Kei-i-Ken
India Martial Arts

Best regards,

Jeffery Brian Hodges
21st May 2007, 05:21
Dear Sir,
I was able to meet Nagao Sensei in 2005,along with others at Japan Tai Kai his technique was incredible.

Not sure about the website, but the Fundamental Ninpo Taijutsu book in Japanese has Tanemura Sensei listed as Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, and Mugen Shinto Ryu Iaijutsu, Kyoju Dairi.

Nathan Scott
21st May 2007, 05:47
Not sure about the website, but the Fundamental Ninpo Taijutsu book in Japanese has Tanemura Sensei listed as Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, and Mugen Shinto Ryu Iaijutsu, Kyoju Dairi.

Mugen Shinto-ryu iaijutsu is an art that Yamamoto Kakuyoshi founded, so this would make sense if he were studying with the Yamamoto-den line.

Based on the listing of arts studied from his webpage, it looks as though Tanemura Sensei may have in fact dabbled in "Takeda-ryu Nakamura-ha" stuff as well.

BTW, I've got no problem resurrecting old threads as needed. That's actually my basic idea.

Regards,

George Kohler
21st May 2007, 17:18
Based on the listing of arts studied from his webpage, it looks as though Tanemura Sensei may have in fact dabbled in "Takeda-ryu Nakamura-ha" stuff as well.

Tanemura Sensei does not do the "Nakamura-ha" stuff, which I think was changed a lot by Nakamura. He does what Sato learned from Oba Ichiro, including some kukishin-ryu bojutsu.

Samurai Jack
21st May 2007, 17:48
After looking at the list Kendoguy9 posted, if it is accurate, and I am being sincere, I wonder where Mr. Tanemura finds all the time?

Eric Baluja
21st May 2007, 19:06
...I wonder where Mr. Tanemura finds all the time? With due respect to Tanemura S., I gotta say that's hee-frickin-larious!

I think only Tanaka Fumon comes close to this level of multi-tasking.

Hoping we can all take a joke...

Nathan Scott
21st May 2007, 19:41
Tanemura Sensei does not do the "Nakamura-ha" stuff, which I think was changed a lot by Nakamura. He does what Sato learned from Oba Ichiro, including some kukishin-ryu bojutsu.

Hey George,

No kidding? I wasn't aware that there was more than one line of "Takeda-ryu Aiki-no-jutsu" out there. The only "extant" line I ever hear about using the Takeda-ryu name is the Nakamura-ha. Do you know if Sato formally taught/ranked in Takeda-ryu as well?

Regards,

George Kohler
21st May 2007, 22:47
Do you know if Sato formally taught/ranked in Takeda-ryu as well?

I'm not sure if he gave any rank in it, but he did teach it.

Kendoguy9
21st May 2007, 22:57
Dear Mr. Hodges,

"Dear Sir,
I was able to meet Nagao Sensei in 2005,along with others at Japan Tai Kai his technique was incredible."

I hope you're not calling me sir. Chris works just fine :)

I have no doubt that Mr. Nagao is very talented, in fact I would be suprised if you said otherwise. I don't think you can get a kyoju dairi in Daito-ryu with out a LOT of skill. However his talent in aiki is not really what I am wondering about, but rather his ability (or Mr. Sato's) to issue the ranks found on the Genbukan website.

"Not sure about the website, but the Fundamental Ninpo Taijutsu book in Japanese has Tanemura Sensei listed as Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, and Mugen Shinto Ryu Iaijutsu, Kyoju Dairi."

From the sound of it, it seems like an overzealous webmaster made a mistake. I have no bone to pick with Mr. Tanemura. I was just curious about the rank claimed on the website. When this topic was last active it seems like everyone involved let it go since Mr. Tanemura was not making any public claims about Daito-ryu. Now that it is posted on his public website, I think it is a fair topic of discussion.

Best regards,

Nathan Scott
10th July 2007, 06:09
For more information, please see the following thread:

Yamamoto-den Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu (Yamamoto Kakuyoshi) (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?p=447496)

Regards,

Kendoguy9
27th July 2007, 05:17
Hello all,

I have found one of (I assume) Mr. Tanemura's students in Spain doing a Daito-ryu Yamamotokai kata online.

http://genbukan-ninpo-bugei.com/Downloads/get=1.html

Best regards,

SamHaLe
29th July 2007, 17:41
Hello all,

I have found one of (I assume) Mr. Tanemura's students in Spain doing a Daito-ryu Yamamotokai kata online.

http://genbukan-ninpo-bugei.com/Downloads/get=1.html

Best regards,


nice to see... In Wado-Ryu from Hironori Ohtsuka Meijin, we also have this true Idori...

Wado-Ryu, better way :)