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musashi-uk
28th December 2003, 12:12
This is the first thread I've posted on E-budo.com, hopefully everything's correct!
Part of my martial research has led me into the traditional training and body conditioning methods of Okinawa/China. Does anyone know of any supplier who deals in traditional training equipment such as the chi-ishi, makiwara, kongoken etc? - or are practitioners of these styles expected to construct these personally? I realise that there are many 'wall' type makiwara available (I have one myself), however I was specifically looking for the 'tapered post' type (tachi-makiwara).
Also, does anyone know the amount of weight used with the traditional aids (stone padlocks and iron ring)? Do practitioners stay with the same resistance or do they progressively increase the weight over time?

Thanks for any help in advance!

CEB
28th December 2003, 16:39
Originally posted by musashi-uk
... Does anyone know of any supplier who deals in traditional training equipment such as the chi-ishi, makiwara, kongoken etc? - or are practitioners of these styles expected to construct these personally? ...

Yes there are some suppliers. The stuff is ridiculously overpriced. Most implements are easily made yourself. Ishi Sashi I buy. Chi Ishi, Makiwara I build. Kogoken I need help on because I don't have a welder. If your have access to an arc welder they are pretty simple t construct out of pipe. Tetsu Tama you can buy from Wing Lam or you can go to a bearing supply shop and get some large steel balls. About the same price either way. Around $30 US.


Originally posted by musashi-uk
... I realise that there are many 'wall' type makiwara available (I have one myself), however I was specifically looking for the 'tapered post' type (tachi-makiwara).

Shureido used to sell them I think. They were overpriced. You can make your own a lot cheaper If you are going to plant it outside. It requires some tools. The taper is important because it provides low initial resistance and increaseing resistance as the punch extends through the makiwara.



Originally posted by musashi-uk
Also, does anyone know the amount of weight used with the traditional aids (stone padlocks and iron ring)? Do practitioners stay with the same resistance or do they progressively increase the weight over time? [/B]

Depends on how strong you are. Many of the exercises don't work large muscle groups as much as they work connective tissue strength. Chi Ishi you can vary the effective weight of the exercises by by changing the leverage of it by choking up on the thing or working it close to the end of the handle. That said some exercises do work large muscle also.

An old school karate teacher needs to teach you this. You need to be taught the exercises by a teacher who knows them or you may hurt yourself a lot more than you help yourself. If you are going to try this completely on your own you would be better off going to a gym and working weight machines or being taught how to lift free weights. There are important principles you need to know in any form of weight lifting. If you have a good knowledge of physiology and keneisiology (have no idea how to spell this, my best guess) from prior weight training use that knowledge for you benefit but I still don't recommend doing it. You can acquire most the benefits of hojo undo in the weight room. Grip Strengthening is probably the one facet you may be lacking on a comparative basis. The other maybe general tanren conditioning. But the weight room has a lot of advantages over karate hojoundo. I like to do both.

Just like any other facet of marital arts you just can't teach yourself as effciently or as safely as you can learn from a good teacher.

I've been thinking about learning how to do Kenjutsu. Do you know a good place I can buy a really sharp sword? :)

Good Luck

musashi-uk
29th December 2003, 00:37
Thanks for the quick reply, much appreciated. As far as buying a Shinken is concerned, obviously, the best place to look would be Japan. The only time we use live swords in our practice is when performing tameshigiri (cutting practice), or when we get to around 5th dan!. For safety, we usually do all our kata practice with either semi-sharp or pure training blades. I am very lucky, in that our dojo is linked to one of the traditional schools in Japan (Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu), our Headmaster being Iwata Norikazu Sensei. This means that we can usually get very good deals in swords from Japan.
Being a Kendo practitioner, you may know, that buying a quality Shinken isn't cheap! You're gonna be looking at thousands! Some suppliers however, provide cheap alternatives for cutting use for around £200-£300. Obviously, rough around the edges...but will do the job regardless!
It is usually found that some schools (like ours) has one or two quality shinken for club cutting use. This may be the case for yourself, it's worth a try.
I've also noticed that you train in Goju Ryu. My research has also led me to assessing the effectiveness of 'Mawashi uke' (Circular block) as a valid defensive technique in karate. My base style is Wado Ryu, which doesn't have this technique in kihon, but it can be found in the more advanced kata. Unless you have a good knowledge of traditional bunkai (not the usual crap) from sources such as the Bubushi and can extract the information located in these kata, techniques like mawashi-uke will not be effectively practiced. I've noticed that many of the 'original' styles seem to train in this technique from a very early stage. This is one of the only 'real' defensive movements that I have found, as again you will know that most of the techniques labelled as 'blocks' in Japanese styles, are in fact potent striking techniques (part of Master Itosu's strategy from the early part of the century, to promote karate in the educational system for children). I was just wondering what your view is on the validity of mawashi-uke coupled with correct taisabaki, as I am using this to great effect in my practice.:D

CEB
29th December 2003, 01:51
I was kidding about buying a shinken and teaching myself kenjutsu. It was a joke. An exaggregate parallel to teaching yourself Okinawian hojo undo. I play a little social Kendo and I do MJER because most my Kendo freinds do this. Our MJER branch does tamashigeri. We are under Miura Hanshi in MJER and SMR. But the arts I am experienced in are Goju Ryu and Judo.

The essence of most Goju Ryu can be found in Tora Guchi ( some call it Mawashi Uke ). I think Toguchi Sensei was quoted at saying something similar to this. Whether he did or not it doesn't matter to me I believe its true. It can be a VERY offensive technique or it can be a simple deflection push away. There is more depth in that technique than any other technique in Goju Ryu.

All techniques need to be coupled with a correct tai sabaki and ashi sabaki. The correct sabaki can vary greatly to the situation. There are few absolutes. Sometimes the correct sabaki is to drop back and sink (certain engaged grappling situations.) Sometimes it is forward angles done light on the feet. There are many correct things. Incorrect ways are ways that don't work.

If you don't have good knowledge of Bunkai from a good teacher you aint doing Goju Ryu. Problem is that there are teachers teaching Goju Ryu with dojos and lots of students but lets say maybe they needed to go back for more lessons. Maybe they are 2nd generation incompetents who knows these days. If you have a good teacher that is great. If you don't you will probably never realise you don't, so people should just have fun doing whatever it is they do.

Reading a translated copy of the Bubishi also isn't going to do anything for you if you don't have a solid foundation under an actual Goju Ryu teacher. The Bubishi is a bunch of disjointed notes. For example the 48 kumite techniques will not teach you a thing unless you have learned your kumite techniques from a teacher and practice them with a partner. Pictures in the book don't convey a whole lot of what is going on in the technique and descriptions are nonexistant.

I don't really don't know what I can say about tora guchi over the internet that can help you. Its a hands on kind of thing.

Be careful with your wrist, elbow and shoulder joints if you try to teach yourself hojo undo. I don't know what constitutes your personal research. If you seek out help from senior practitioners this would be good. If you are just going off written text from books or internet I wouldn't waste much time with it. Just invest the extra time into the weight room. You don't have to lift for mass. It is easier to find good weight lifting instruction than it is to find authentic hojo undo instruction. It isn't rocket science but there are a few things you need to know.

Also don't drop any hojo undo tools on your feet this can hurt a lot. Ishi Sashi will hurt the tops of your feet. Forget what people sometimes say about conditioning the feet, Ishi Sashi will hurt your feet. Maybe the stone padlocks should have rubber handles. :)

Gene Williams
29th December 2003, 02:27
The White Possum likes a nice sturdy tree limb to practice his meditative techniques.

CEB
29th December 2003, 02:31
Originally posted by Gene Williams
The White Possum likes a nice sturdy tree limb to practice his meditative techniques.

Or a nice porno movie :).

chizikunbo
3rd January 2004, 15:35
You can buy these types of things a good quality from Bushi Fitness!
Here is the page, http://www.bushifitness.com/shopping_cart.htm

Hank Irwin
4th January 2004, 12:44
You can also find weapons making info at www.geocities.com/bushinoji

Gene Sensei, I leave today for Vegas, back on the 25th, will give you a call when I get back and schedule a time frame I can come by.

Harry Cook
5th January 2004, 23:20
If you are ever in the North-east please get in touch; I would be happy to take you through the hojo undo drills and the tora-guchi/mawashi-uke applications. As for acquiring your own training tools chishi are easy to make, all you need are some old tins, lengths of thick dowelling and some concrete. My kongoken is quite heavy and bigger than the standard Okinawan models, but it is suitable to my size - I had it made by the local blacksmith. If you want a kongoken made to your own specifications I have a friend who will make this kind of equipment for you. His name is Stan Pike, and you can find him on the internet, or look in the Jan/Feb edition of Men's Health magazine where he is featured in an article on kettle-bells etc.
You don't really need to graduate to heavier versions of the training implements; you can often increase the resistance by changing your grip to alter the balance point.
Harry Cook