Hand Positions

[Chrono]

Ok, this is totally a beginner question, but since I am one I'm going to ask.

Why, when holding the sword, does the hands need to be apart? I'm thinking that if you hold it with the hands together it makes the sword more tip heavy and if they're apart it makes the sword equal with weight. Is this right?

Jon

[HanashiBugeisha]

Yes, when holding with both hands...hands are apart with your right hand near the top of the tsuka and your left hand toward the bottom. Remember, you do not hold it like you hold a tennis racket or baseball bat. You hold it properly when the V your thumb and hand make are on the top of the tsuka.

If you imagine you are holding a wet towel that needs to be wrung out...and you twist your right hand (upper hand) to the left...and your left hand (lower hand) to the right...you will have the basic grip. There are a myriad of things that go into proper grip...including how tight you hold the sword and how loose your fingers are (pinky and ring fingers actually grip the sword the tightest...the other fingers merely guide the sword if you will). Remember, don't grip so tense that you are white knuckled and tiring.

If you have access to a sensei that can show you, it would be much better than trying to learn on your own or from a book. However, with that being said, I would wholeheartedly recommend Mr. Dave Lowry's book, "Bokken: The Art of the Japanese Sword". It will prove to be a timeless reference for you...and does cover many of the fundamentals that you may be looking for. But as I said, no book is a substitute for proper instruction.

Good luck in your endeavors.

Regards,

Matthew Ash

Wichita, Kansas

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by Chrono
Why, when holding the sword, does the hands need to be apart?If you want to do a little experiment, take a bokken or even a broomstick. Hold it with your hands together and try to swing it down and then stop precisely on a given point in space.

Now, try it again with your hands apart.

I think you'll see that with your hands together you have very little control of the tip (kissaki) in either the up/down or side-to-side planes.

With your hands apart you have very good control.

As you move on to more and more complex techniques, combinations, etc. this precise control becomes essential.

That is only one reason. You'll also find that in some waza your right hand becomes a fulcrum that your left hand (the "power hand") rotates the sword around, etc.

In summary: hands apart = speed, power, control.

I hope this helps to answer your question.

[Chrono]

Yes, it answers my question perfectly, thanks.

Matthew, I just got the book and a bokken. I guess it's time to do some reading.

Jon

[Chidokan]

remember physics lessons at school and the lever principle? There you go!;)

[Brian Owens]

This thread does make me wonder about baseball, though.

Batters are told to "choke up" on the bat, get their hands together, etc. Yet some (Edgar Martinez comes to mind, sorry to see him go but we all have to retire someday) seem to have plenty of power, and enough accuracy to hit a little target hurtling at them at 80 to 100 mph or more.

I haven't quite figured out how they do it. (I was asked to leave Little League by my "fellow players" lest we lose every game we played. ;) )

Of course, they only have to make one swing at a time. And if they hit their target they throw away their "weapon" and run like mad.

Crazy! :D

[Chrono]

Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
Of course, they only have to make one swing at a time. And if they hit their target they throw away their "weapon" and run like mad.

I'm guessing they just choke on the bat to get more power in that one swing (or three). But then what do I know. I was even scared to swing the bat when I was in Little League.

Jon

[Brian Owens]

Despite my presence, the team did manage to do well in the league that year. As a reward our coach took us to see a Seattle Rainiers game at Sicks' Stadium.

(For any history buffs out there, that'll give you an idea of when I was in little league.)

[Tim Mailloux]

Originally posted by Chrono
I'm guessing they just choke on the bat to get more power in that one swing (or three). But then what do I know. I was even scared to swing the bat when I was in Little League.

Jon

The reason you choke up on the bat in base ball (ussually only in little league) is for control. The shorter the amount of bat past you hands, the less weight there is to control. Again, this is ussually only in little league where either a kids father bought him a bat slightly too big so it will last him more than one season, or the kid is using team equipment which consists od a few bat for the whole team to use. Not every one is the same size.

Now when adults swing, they generally want there hands close together, and as far down the shaft of the bat as possible. This is to generate speend and power (the same applies to golf and tennis). It is simple physics. The longer the bat, the faster the end of the bat travels. Which means more power. The same would apply to a sword. If you were to keep your hands close together, as far down towards the kashira as possible, you could generate faster swing speed. However your control would be comprimised greatly.

One more thing, wheather you swing normally or choke up on the bat you want your hand together to maximise your reach. Again it come down to bat speed and power. The longer your reach, the farther the end of the bat is from your center, the faster the end of the bat is traveling = more power. It is all about centripical force.

[Dan Harden]

Tim writes
This is to generate speed and power (the same applies to golf and tennis).

The longer the bat, the faster the end of the bat travels. Which means more power. The same would apply to a sword. If you were to keep your hands close together, as far down towards the kashira as possible, you could generate faster swing speed. However your control would be compromised greatly.
It is simple physics.

Uh..No...it is not. Clubs and bats are geatly weighted for added momentum. Swords are not. There are enough "baseball swing" sword guys; we don't need more. Sword is a different power/speed generation.

Sword is not the same as these sport, foward-weighted objects and never will be.

a. Not all sword is left hand power around the fulcrum of the right hand.
b. Not all power is generated in a swing. Particularly a big swing.
There is a demonstratable amount of speed that can be generated from a Jodan through breathing and collapsing your diaphragm and posture bringing the edge down. This has nothing to do with the hand speed at all as the force is not in the hands-they work yes-but they follow.

c.There are extremely fast small cuts with right-hand/ left-hand lever power that are fast enough that the eye cannot follow easily. These work inside. The generation of tip speed happens in a very small arc with the tip remaining "latent" for continual target acquisition.

d. There is deflection/parry that actually increases the tip speed through the contributing factor of the opponents force to increase your spiral-in to an inside cut.

e. Then there is the stab from European and Japanese work. Fast speed which is leg, hand and body work.

All these are variants to a tip in motion and not one would make any improvement through use of a closed grip. In fact the closed grip would be an inhibitor in all but one; the stab/ lunge.

Acceleration of a tip has a start, mid point, and follow through. In these stages there is an increasing and decreasing force. The initial start and a gathering momentum from weight at speed. You will very rarely want or should be thinking of some big movement that results in a completion of momentum and force. Most of the time you would be interrupted as your target acquisition would be happening somewhere between the initial generation of force and a gathering momentum. So at any point in the cut you may need to be generating speed with something other than weighted momentum.
For this reason SWORD is therefore _NOT_ all about centripical force as the sport topics you stated.
In cases of the parry/deflect where one would wish to re-acquire in a continual vector the enhancement of tip speed from the rebound or slide is greatly increased with levering of the hands in a wide spacing-not closed grip.
It takes little force to cut. Which makes being able to do so in small spaces a worthwhile study to be able to do that very thing.

Cheers

Dan

[rache]

most baseball players miss two thirds of the time anyway...

[hyaku]

The grip depends on the ryu. Power is basicaly generated by the hips not the arms and hands. Any tension used before the end of a cut will simply hinder smooth action.

Hyakutake Colin