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Glenn Lapierre
30th December 2003, 23:04
Well this is my first post. I have been viewing a number of related subjects here on this site, and it is very informative to say the least. I have a very breif amount of time practicing Aikikai, but may be looking for something different according to a playful incident which happened the other week. Heres what I mean.
A few pals and I were hanging out, and I was telling them about my 6 month introduction to the art of Aikikai, and showing them a couple of basic moves, so I show this guy a basic Ikkyo, and Tenkan to the ground with his arm pinned 90 degrees to his side. Fine up until this point. While laying there he says to me that he should be able to get out of it easy enough, so he trys, and does, just buy wiggling around crazily. Fair enough.:( Now I realize that practicing at the dojo and a real life confrontation are quite different. This fellow outweighs me by 40 pounds, so we give it another try. I'm thinking maybe I was lacking in technique somehow. This time I make sure to apply all my weight on his upper bicept and elbow area. Again by wiggling violently. Now I would consider myself pretty green at Aikikai, but have found myself thinking that in a real life situation, I will need alot more skills. However I'm begining to wonder if something abit rougher and more brutal would be in order to subdue a lunatic on the street. Naturally I begin to think of Jujutsu.
From reading the posts and reading material on my own, I cant seem to differentiate between Aiki-Jujutsu and Jujutsu? Is there a difference between the two? I'm thinking of taking something more aggressive, and would like to know the difference if there is a difference.
Can someone give me some insight on this please.

Carlos Estrella
31st December 2003, 01:36
Rather than dare to answer the question about the difference between "aikijujutsu" and "jujutsu" (not to mention jiu-jitsu and the other variations), let's keep this simple... there are MANY PEOPLE who can defend themselves successfully using aikido just like there are many who cannot. The technique isn't as important as if it's the RIGHT ONE FOR THE CIRCUMSTANCES. Personally, I've used variations of aikido techniques in restraints used in law enforcement, but I was also in a position NOT to allow the person being restrained from "wiggling out" of a hold. In your case, it sounds like you were doing the equivelent <sp> of two untrained people practicing and countering and counter-countering until you got bored (not saying you actually DID that, but I wasn't there <g>.

Spend some more time learning the techniques and speak with your instructor when a moment permits. Maybe aikido isn't for you, but I would doubt jujutsu or aikijujutsu is if all you are looking for are self-defense moves. The training required to use such arts to properly defend oneself is long and difficult - you may want to look for a nontraditional self defense class or possibly JKD, Krav Maga, etc.

If you STILL want aiki, stick with it - the "understanding" comes later - honest!

Regards,

Carlos

PS: I LOVED BC (especially Vancouver during the Symphony of Fire!)

Jake McKee
31st December 2003, 05:11
Hi Glenn,

The basic ikkyo pin is not an effective pin to completely control an opponent, in my opinion. It will usually work against aikidoka who aren't familiar with groundwork, however try it on a BJJ guy and he'll be out in a second.

Daito Ryu has a plethora of pins to control your opponent on the ground. It is interesting to ask oneself why Ueshiba hardly kept any of them in Aikido.

Best,

Jake McKee
www.budovideos.com

PRehse
31st December 2003, 06:01
Originally posted by Jake McKee
Daito Ryu has a plethora of pins to control your opponent on the ground. It is interesting to ask oneself why Ueshiba hardly kept any of them in Aikido.
You sure about that.

But Carlos is generally right - basic Aikido practice (like basic Daito-ryu or name your Jujutsu system) is geared towards the newbie off the street. If your dojo does not progress beyond the basics relatively soon then you have to ask yourself what you want out of practice and can you get it there.

The standard Ikkyo pin of Aikikai is how they choose to introduce you to owase in general. Properly applied with a gyaku grip, proper placement of the knees and control of the elbow, it is not so easy to get out of. Or more to the point difficult enough that if uke struggles you can up the response.

Lots more you can do. For example when uke is still on his knees, instead of pulling away - place your knee on the shoulder joint and push down while pulling the arm up. Not really a pin but ... Ikkyo itself done full bore from tachi doesn't really need a pin.

PRehse
31st December 2003, 07:06
I have time on my hands and I really did not answer the original question.

First I have to quickly say that generally speaking, especially when in the street pins are not a good idea. The more complicated the worse they are - since generally you are also tied up. Hopefully not as much but if said lunatic has friends .......

Pins in the older traditions are often a prelude to dispatch or at the very least to disarm the aggressor. The idea of holding someone indefinately until help arrives (assuming they are not there already) really does not figure into the equation.

A lot of Aikido dojos tend to forget what some would call common sense approach to self defense but I could also say the same of other martial art traditions including some that consider themselves all tough and rough. Still if self defense is your major concern it is far better to join a dojo (it could still be Aikido) that at least tries to keep it in mind when they train.

As an aside messing around with your friend and making your discovery is good. It's real easy to get sucked into the it works in a dojo therefore it will work everywhere mentallity.

Glenn Lapierre
31st December 2003, 08:30
OK guys you'l have to take it easy on me, like I said I'm very new to MA and have no other arts background. I did not do very well expressing myself there, I'll try again.

I really love to train in Aikido.

CARLOS, you are right when you say that the right move should be used for the appropriate condition, this is my inexperience at it's finest.

JAKE now that I'm thinking of what you said, combined with what CARLOS has said. I do not think this would be an ecceptable pin to use, and I was trying to prove a point with a pin that could have been substituted for a better variation, and for a person of his stature.

And to address Pete. I did apply a Gyaku grip the third time, With my knee tight to the body, with the arm raised 20 degrees higher and he did have quite abit more trouble with this. He got out, but I was not willing to crank on his wrist any harder, but I guessed if I did, he may well not have made it out. PETE i do see alot of other options when training, but I feel as though I have been doing it for only a very short time, and my sensei would disapprove due to this fact. He teaches I think what you would consider the traditional(Hombu) and absolutely no rough stuff is allowed. So I do try to read between the lines so to speak. I've come up with all kinds of stuff in my head, but unfortunately that is where it must stay. For now.

Lastly the reason I had posted this here is because, I thought that alot of the moves lacked the finish I was thinking of in Aikido, combined with the fact that I was thinking of adding groundwork in the form of Judo (whitch I had not mentioned) and put that all together...... that is how I came up with Jujutsu. So this is why I did not know where to put this thread.

I spoke with a AIki-Jujutsu fella today, and went down to meet him to talk about comming down and participating for a class. I just dont know if it sounds what I'm looking for. It doesnt sound like There is anything Aiki about it. He says they teach alot of dirty tricks and such, this goes against eveything I've been taught up to now? How are these training sessions conducted without getting injurys? I kinda assumed that because it is called Aiki-Jujutsu that it would not be this way?

Any thoughts?

Glenn Lapierre
31st December 2003, 08:49
CARLOS

What is JKD, Krav, Magna I am not familiar with these.

Jake McKee
31st December 2003, 09:43
Hi Peter,

Originally posted by Jake McKee:
Daito Ryu has a plethora of pins to control your opponent on the ground. It is interesting to ask oneself why Ueshiba hardly kept any of them in Aikido.

Peter wrote:
You sure about that.

If you research Daito Ryu techniques, and I'm not just talking about the ikkajo section of the hiden mokuroku, I mean really research deeply, you'll find a countless number of very interesting - and painful! - pins in the Daito Ryu as taught by Tokimune Takeda. Far more than have made it into any aikido group that I've been exposed to.

Peter wrote:
The standard Ikkyo pin of Aikikai is how they choose to introduce you to owase in general. Properly applied with a gyaku grip, proper placement of the knees and control of the elbow, it is not so easy to get out of. Or more to the point difficult enough that if uke struggles you can up the response.

If you've seen this pin applied in most Daito Ryu groups, you'll see that they don't just pin and hold, but they also attack the joint. This is done by placing a knee on the the upper arm and lifting the forearm which, if applied fully, would result in a break. You can see Ueshiba was still somewhat practicing this way in his demo from 1935. So you're right that there are various ways of increasing the effectiveness of this pin. I see this pin as a basic exercise, not a way to completely control the uke.

Best regards,

Jake McKee
www.budovideos.com

Carlos Estrella
31st December 2003, 15:09
Originally posted by Glenn Lapierre
CARLOS

What is JKD, Krav, Magna I am not familiar with these.

JKD is short for Jeet Kune Do, which is the art synthesized by Bruce Lee. Forgetting acting for a minute - Lee was a very capable fighter and won more than he lost if history is accurate (on the street, not in the ring or movies). His amalgamation of several traditional and nontraditional martial arts is very effective according to its many students and teachers.

Krav Maga is a modern martial art invented in Israel. It is also seemingly effective in street and even battlefield hand to hand combat situations. I have little additional information but go into other forums in e-Budo and you are sure to find out more.

Back to the original thread... and just to be VERY CLEAR - AIKIJUJUTSU is not just rough aikido. You mentioned that a friend who does aikijujutsu does an art that has alot of "dirty tricks?" I can't speak for ANYONE'S art on that point, except to say that all of the aikijujutsu I've experienced has used techniques that aren't exactly "fair play" but not what I would call "dirty."

One more thing - no one was trying to come down on you or anything - in fact, the responses given were very tame and constructive. If you thought otherwise, I apologize. Keep in mind though that some who visit here aren't as polite about this issue but if you want good advice, you take your chances here <g>.

Regards,

Carlos

Ron Tisdale
31st December 2003, 15:17
If you research Daito Ryu techniques, and I'm not just talking about the ikkajo section of the hiden mokuroku, I mean really research deeply, you'll find a countless number of very interesting - and painful! - pins in the Daito Ryu as taught by Tokimune Takeda. Far more than have made it into any aikido group that I've been exposed to.

While I would probably agree in general, I would also recommend checking out Amos Parker Shihan, and his instructors in the yoshinkan. Even some reclining pins are still in some portions of aikido. And a lot of teachers know things they don't often show in class. Sometimes I wish they would show more...sometimes I understand the reasons they don't.
Ron

szczepan
31st December 2003, 17:10
Originally posted by Glenn Lapierre

Any thoughts?
You can't use directly a classic techniques from the dojo. They are done on non-resisting PARTNER that actually HELPS you all the time.
If you start playing wiht your friend - his is not partner anymore, he is ATTACKER - may be friendly one, but attacker. And he is resisting and countering your technique.

To be able to deal with such situation you need first train with very moderate resistance in a dojo. Slowly you will learn how to adapt classic techniques in dynamic situation, when attacker is actif and not passif. Then progresively increase resistance.

Traditional Jujutsu or Aiki-jujutsu will not help you, they dont practice against resisting or actif and countering attacker. You must find aikido instructor (if you love aikido)willing help you and who is able to handle such difficult situation. A research is not easy.

If you don't find aikido instructor, closer thing will be learning judo or brasilian jujutsu. They have sparrings with full resistance and counters in safe way.

Qasim
31st December 2003, 19:17
Ultimately, you aren't trying to injure your friend. So no matter what the technique is, you're going to stop short, apply minimal pressure or release for concern of injuring him. Just like you aren't trying to injure your dojo mates.

"Nuff Said :mst:

Cady Goldfield
31st December 2003, 19:57
Glenn,

To answer you question as directly as possible, the difference is that aikijujutsu goes a step beyond the basic mechanical control that jujutsu is all about. Aikijujutsu employs soft, internally generated, subtle movements that add more power to both the kuzushi and the pins and controls. There are also some additional tactical methods that add to the effectiveness of application. It is a more sophisticated level of jujutsu, but you need to start with jujutsu to learn the basics needed to comprehend and apply aikijujutsu.

The problem is, the word "aikijujutsu" has been commandeered and mis-applied by a lot of schools that do not, in fact, teach it. Usually, it's some form of aikido and maybe a mix of other arts that the instructor has attempted to modify into something more "combat" oriented.

There are very few places to learn genuine aikijujutsu, and those are small, often closed groups. Basically, if you see an advertisement for a commercial school claiming to teach aikijujutsu, it isn't aikijujutsu.

FWIW

Mike B. Johnson
31st December 2003, 22:39
Hi,

Posted by szczepan:

"Traditional Jujutsu or Aiki-jujutsu will not help you, they dont practice against resisting or actif and countering attacker."

Well Szczepan. I don't know what in depth experience you have with Classical Jujutsu or Aikijujutsu but your experience is not mine. In fact a comment like yours makes me seriously question your veracity. I have visited and trained in many traditional dojos in my 20 odd years experience. I am a longtime judoka and kickboxer. I am used to actual fighting. I know of more than several good traditional dojo's that practise against resisting partners. In fact, most of my experiences with LEGIT traditional jujutsu & aiki have been good.. To make a generalization like the one above is blatantly inaccurate in my experience. Case in point. I just visited a very traditional dojo in Colorado. If you think you could wiggle out of one of this particular sensei's traditional pins, you better be prepared for a hospital visit and a long bout of physical therapy. He put one on me that felt like a hammer! I could'nt move without dislocating something.

If you're ever in the Seattle are look up Dave Slocum and attempt to escape his aikijujutsu clutches. He'll comment from direct experience with both BJJ and Aikijujutsu. He was a longtime aikijujutsu student of Don Angier and one of the first american students of Hickson Gracie.

Glenn, Watchout with asking for unqualified opinions, they are like #$%#$%. I prefer to ask about personal experience.

BJ

Mark Jakabcsin
1st January 2004, 01:41
"Traditional Jujutsu or Aiki-jujutsu will not help you, they dont practice against resisting or actif and countering attacker. "

The ignorant shout loudly again displaying their ignorance.

mark

PRehse
1st January 2004, 02:33
Originally posted by Ron Tisdale
While I would probably agree in general, I would also recommend checking out Amos Parker Shihan, and his instructors in the yoshinkan. Even some reclining pins are still in some portions of aikido. And a lot of teachers know things they don't often show in class. Sometimes I wish they would show more...sometimes I understand the reasons they don't.
Ron
Echo

A training partner of mine is in the unique position to have many years in both Shodokan Aikido and one of the Daito Ryu lines. The places he trains depends on the teacher not the the name so for example he refuses to train with his local Daito Ryu group (he considers it a joke) but travels quite a distance to train with another. Yes I'm being vague. I'll bring up this thread again during our road trip this weekend (we're off to see Peter G. in Hiroshima) but I know what his answer is going to be and it gels with what I've seen and felt.

There are differences of particular waza, training methods and emphasis but technically he has seen nothing in Daito Ryu that he hasn't seen in Shodokan and vice versa. He considers the Daito Ryu he studies as softer than Shodokan. Now why is his opinion different than that expressed on these forums? I have my own ideas as to the answer.

Even within the Kyu and Shodan syllabus of Shodokan Aikido there are several pins that I have never seen in Aikikai dojos but I am not fool enough to say that they aren't practiced there also. Stick around enough and train with the right people and you will see some interesting stuff.

PRehse
1st January 2004, 03:39
A quick qualifier - I used the term fool with regard to myself if I made the statement based on what I know. Not calling anyone else that.

When I first started Aikido I visited a 10 tatami dojo in a small shrine near Tsuchira, Ibaraki-ken. The whole lesson was very static but powerful pins - several being variations on a theme. Hurt like hell - some I haven't seen since.

I want to make it clear that there is a lot I could learn from top rate teachers outside of my own chosen core. It's why I explore and cross-train.

I still stand by my assertation that there is far less difference than many who live and train across the pond would like to believe.

Glenn Lapierre
2nd January 2004, 06:26
I think from the responses that have been posted here, It is plain to see that I have plain and simply not put enough time into my practice of Akikai. I do not have a wide variety of Aikido or Aiki-Jujutsu, or even Jujutsu styles to chose from in my area for that matter. There is only one of each art around my area. There are some of these different styles offered in the larger city of Vancouver, and within some time I'm sure I will get around to trying the different styles.

The Aiki-Jujutsu fella that I was refering to, has a police influence, and this is where the dirty side must be derived from. This bunch includes kicks to the groin, eye gauging and similar stuf like that. This sort of thing would be appropriate for the street/street fighter, but as mentioned above I dont think this sounds like the path that I had wanted to persu originally. We do have an Aikidoist in our group that has made drive into the city to attend a Yoshinkan group a few times, and I will quiz him on his experience and how he has liked them.

I will agree with those of you who have mentioned about the need to train with partners and thier added resistance. As I said, I believe that the dojo where I train seems to be quite complacent. We only have one practitioner who is now just shodan. I believe that it has taken aprx 7 years for him to achieve that level. From most of the information I have read that seems to be a normal timeframe. There is also a few second and third kyu practitioners, with the rest of us mostly beginers. This may be where my uncertainness is comming from, the fact that the only hard and fast Aikido I have witnessed has been from video. I'm sure thats because we are all on the less experienced side, and my instructor is adamant about not inflicting injury, witch of course comes with experience. I do realize that this artform is a long practicing art, before you will feel more than comfortable in a split second confrontation. I am determined to put in my time, and do not expect instant results in any way.

I value all posts here, and take them for what they are. In my case I would consider myself an inexperienced Aikidoka, these posts for me are a great learning aid and I am not offended in the least about all your thoughts on my topic of choice. I will continue to train to the best of my ability, and begin to research the different styles of Aikido to enhance my preception and understanding on what I believe to be my chosen path.

Since comming to this conclusion, I will post my Aikido concerns in the proper section.
I have found this to be very helpful and please keep the comments comming.

Glenn Lapierre
2nd January 2004, 11:00
In the above post I reget to have said that I train with less experienced practitioners,as they are all more experienced than I. Maybe it would be wiser to say that we are a smaller club with very few shodan.

The guys I train with are excellent by my standards, and class is, I think, carried out in the more traditional manner. Our class is qiiet, light hearted and well mannered. Noone except shodan or higher rank wears Hakama, so I may assume that when I see other Aikidoka in Hakama that they may be of higher ranking with more experience and not nesessarily so. Due to the fact that I have never trained in any other manner anywhere else, and do not have a full understanding of all the other variations going on out there, I can only hope for now, that dedicated practice under the supervision of my instructor will pay good dividends with more time. I am sure it will.

Looking forward to practice:)

Ron Tisdale
5th January 2004, 14:49
Mr. Glenn Lapierre,

Your attitude is so refreshing. Many newbies come on these boards with an attitude that does not match their experience. You, on the other hand, show a courtesy and willingness to learn that will be *very* helpfull to you in your journey. We often jump all over the rude ones...it feels great to commend you for your attitude.

Sincerely,
Ron Tisdale

Glenn Lapierre
5th January 2004, 15:32
Ron

Thanks for the words of encouragement on this issue. I was originally concerned with my practice, at least partially due to an injury that occured at work and have been unable to train these last few months. I also could have to much time on my hands which led me to thinking, or should I say doubting my abilities in some fashion. I really love to train Aikido, and realize that in due time I will experience different applications as I progress. I sometimes regret that it has taken me until the ripe ol age of 34 to begin but hey better late than never eh? After my arm is abit better I may consider adding some Judo to my training.

Thanks again Ron, your post has refreshed me back in return:D

szczepan
5th January 2004, 20:15
Originally posted by Mark Jakabcsin
"Traditional Jujutsu or Aiki-jujutsu will not help you, they dont practice against resisting or actif and countering attacker. "

The ignorant shout loudly again displaying their ignorance.

mark


]Originally posted by Mike B. Johnson
"Well Szczepan. I don't know what in depth experience you have with Classical Jujutsu or Aikijujutsu but your experience is not mine.

Sooooo both of you are saing that Traditional Jujutsu or Aiki-jujutsu have sparrings? Do you practice sparring on regular basic? What are rules? Are there juges?
I'm sorry, I didn't know that.
I would like to know, that is a name of school that practices those sparrings, and if one can observe it?

ps. instructor with sparring background, but who teachs in traditional way, doesn't count, of course.:D
I undestand that in your dojo ppl with no sparring history spar, do they?

Mark Jakabcsin
5th January 2004, 21:14
Szczepan,
You are just too funny. First you write:


Originally posted by szczepan
Traditional Jujutsu or Aiki-jujutsu will not help you, they dont practice against resisting or actif and countering attacker.

Then you write:


Originally posted by szczepan
Sooooo both of you are saing that Traditional Jujutsu or Aiki-jujutsu have sparrings? Do you practice sparring on regular basic? What are rules? Are there juges?
I'm sorry, I didn't know that.


As if the ONLY method of training against 'resisting or active (actif) and countering attacker' is competitive sparring.

As if to say the only method of training realistically is to have rules and judges. Like that's realistic.

Oh, don't get me wrong, competition has it's place in training and it sure can be fun but it is by no means the end all be all of resistant training. Nor is it the ONLY method to train against 'resisting or active (actif) and countering attackers'. IMO, there are several other methods of training that offer far greater realism to the resisting uke than sparring, one of my favorites is scenario training. Another is free style (no rules or judges so it wouldn't meet your description of competitive sparring, although it surly supplies a resistance attacker. You know, what you wrote in your first funny post).




Originally posted by szczepan
I would like to know, that is a name of school that practices those sparrings, and if one can observe it?

Why would you personally check it out???? No, you have already stated on other forums your total reluctance to step out from behind the keyboard. It's far safer to stay out in cyberspace isn't it.

Heck, once again a top notch instructor from another art you bash will be in your neighborhood for a seminar January 17th, but I am sure you won't attend. Far to risky. Heck if you did you would probably only watch, never ask any questions and certainly never step up to the plate and actually do the work with the instructor. Nope that would be far to much to ask from a cyber-warrior.

mark

Cady Goldfield
5th January 2004, 21:21
Sczcepan has never asked (humbly or otherwise) to visit anyone's dojo that I know of to get first-hand experience.

PRehse
6th January 2004, 00:37
Originally posted by Glenn Lapierre
I sometimes regret that it has taken me until the ripe ol age of 34 to begin but hey better late than never eh?
That's about when I and I believe Ron started.

szczepan
6th January 2004, 04:22
Originally posted by Mark Jakabcsin
Szczepan,
As if the ONLY method of training against 'resisting or active (actif) and countering attacker' is competitive sparring.

As if to say the only method of training realistically is to have rules and judges. Like that's realistic.

Sparring is quite good tool, safe and is used in MMA. It develops good fighters.


Originally posted by Mark Jakabcsin

IMO, there are several other methods of training that offer far greater realism to the resisting uke than sparring, one of my favorites is scenario training.
Would you like to explain what is it "scenario training"?


Originally posted by Mark Jakabcsin

Another is free style (no rules or judges so it wouldn't meet your description of competitive sparring, although it surly supplies a resistance attacker. You know, what you wrote in your first funny post).
No rules? HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA....please Mark, don't try to be more funny than me ;) And what allows ppl to survive such "free style"? :D :D :D


Originally posted by Mark Jakabcsin

Why would you personally check it out????
mark
That would be first traditional jujutsu or aikijutsu dojo with sparring in the world. Worth to check it out.

szczepan
6th January 2004, 04:25
Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
Sczcepan has never asked (humbly or otherwise) to visit anyone's dojo that I know of to get first-hand experience.

That is waaaaaay off topic :p

Szczepan(humbly or otherwise)

chrismoses
6th January 2004, 05:47
"Sooooo both of you are saing that Traditional Jujutsu or Aiki-jujutsu have sparrings? Do you practice sparring on regular basic? What are rules? Are there juges?"
-szczepan

Correct me if I'm wrong folks, but up until really recently dojo storming was a pretty common phenomenon. Pretty much all of the classical jujutsu schools had to put up or shut up from time to time. This was espescially true of newer arts like Judo AND Aikido. I've read countless stories of people showing up at the old Aikido hombu and the uchi-deshi at the time having to prove what they were training was good enough to stay. Same thing happened with Judo. Kano Sensei didn't pull the rules for Judo out of thin air. Sumo was also a common thread between arts. O-Sensei was known to be quite good at it, as was Sokaku Takeda.

For a specific concrete example, Takamura-Ha Shindo Yoshin Ryu most certainly has sparring. I really wonder where you come up with this stuff...

Glenn Lapierre
6th January 2004, 07:51
szczepan

I will try to answer your Question as best this novice can.
Although I have started my training fairly late in my opinion, I can tell you that I am most inquizitive fellow, I must know why things work. I had spent quite abit of time researching the art of Aikido before I had ever placed a foot on the mat. The reason for doing so was that I wanted to know the history behind it and the reason for which it was created. I believe that a person can stop an attack without escalating that same situation. This takes far more sophistication in my opinion, as well as many others I believe.

I realize that the artform stems alot from the Jujutsu realm, and was refined to a more peaceful defence system, and gives the person being attacked a choice. Maybe even to teach that person something or another.

Going back to my inquizitivness, I do test my partner in almost all cases, quicker, lighter, then strongly resisting, or maybe even stepping into him or away. He must then deal with these issues if he were to complete the movement. (not always that easy) Out on the street we would have the ability to bring to submission, teach, let the individual rise to his feet, and if they have not learned anything by that and comes again, well we could just up the intensity some and do it all over again. Although we are not training to break any bones or incapacitate someone for trying to harm us, from my experience, as well as reading between the lines while training, I do not believe this would be a problem at all either, if we chose to do this of course. And after saying all that.... If the only choice you have is to try and break someones arm or leg or rib or jaw, and that doesnt seem to work, what would you say that your other choice would be in that situation? Dont get me wrong, I'm not knocking Jujutsu at all. An excellent art in its own right, just with different principals.

In my experience Aikidoka are not ussually getting manhandled, they are most likely handling the man if they are good enough, witch I am not yet. That is why I continue to train in this art.

Just my .02 though

Ron Tisdale
6th January 2004, 14:36
Originally posted by PRehse
That's about when I and I believe Ron started.

Correct, at least for yoshinkan. I tried some aikikai when I was in my mid to late 20's, but I was just too much of a klutz. Hey Cady, what is the ettymology of 'klutz'?

Ron :)

Mike B. Johnson
6th January 2004, 22:33
Sczcepan..bud,

You posted this?

"That would be first traditional jujutsu or aikijutsu dojo with sparring in the world. Worth to check it out"

Has anyone ever told you that you don't know what you're talking about? If not, I'm here to pass on the bad news to you.

Now its true many traditional jujutsu and aiki schools don't teach freestyle until a very advanced level. ( a mistake in my opinion but heck, I'm an old Judoka. ) but almost all traditional jujutsu schools I'm familiar with do have some form of freestyle training to develop spontaneous execution of technique. The fact that you say they don't just highlights your lack of experience and questionable qualifications to comment on the subject.

I believe Araki ryu, Takenouchi ryu, Yanagi ryu, Fusen ryu, Kito ryu, Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu and Tenjin Shinyo ryu all practise various forms of freestyle training. There's probably a great deal of others that I am not familiar with.

FYI, Semi pro boxer and kickboxer Dave Slocum also of the Yanagi ryu used to mix it up with Don Angier on a regular basis when I visited there in the early 1980's. It looked like David and Goliath!

BJ

Mark Jakabcsin
7th January 2004, 02:31
Szczepan,

Do you have any more short bus wit or wisdom you care to share?

mark

Becky Sheetz
9th January 2004, 19:01
I agree, Glenn, your attitude is very refreshing. Kudos! Let me begin by qualifying my response to your question about the difference between jujitsu and ajj by saying, I have never seen good non-ajj jujitsu practiced, at least not by my definition of really being able to control a larger opponent. That's not to say it doesn't exist, of course, so my opinion will be scewed based on my first-hand observations.

Aiki-jujitsu employes aiki, as does aikido. Let's start here, as you are familiar with it. Basically, people will put forth many theorums and philosophical treatises as to the relationship between aikido and ajj. My EXPERIENCE has been that, typically, ajj is far less contingent upon a compliant opponent/partner than aikido and the intensity of the locks is quite often more severe. Again, as to my experience, my sempai recently had wrist surgery to repair some severely torn cartilage. My sensei has had both of his wrists broken. A very senior sensei I train with had his wrist broken in sankjo by his instructor while training in Japan. That's what I mean by intensity of locks. Again, to make a gross, blanket statement, this is not common in the aikido I've seen and felt. As a result, this intensity coupled with greater compliance naturally leads to greater control of an assailant out in the world.

As to the ajj/jujitsu difference, this is somewhat abstract, but you'll generally find these to be true. In no real order:

1. Coordination of upper and lower body in movement. I've heard it said about one blend of, let's us the convention of rjj for regular jujitsu, that students are to focus on the hands because jujitsu is all in the hands. Ajj, like aikido, surely is not and after 6 months I'm sure you have an appreciation for this and for what happens when you move your upper body first or lower body first when trying to move an opponent: nothing!

2. Deadweighting and movement. The use of moving into and around an attacker and, when locking or throwing, deadweighting to fully apply the locks and to break his balance are themes of ajj

3. Circular movement. I've never seen tenkan done by rjj, for example. Nor circular blocks. . .

4. Breaking balance. These elements of breaking your opponent's kuzushi by moving into him or around him and unbalancing him are of the ajj variety.

5. Muscle versus technique. Again, a gross generalization and one that I'm sure a rjj proponent will be quick to correct me on, I've seen common techniques like shoulder, hip and other throws done by jerking and muscling the opponent rather than BLENDING with him. This is a great approach if you are a body builder. But I'm 5'6" and I've learned that it's technique or bust.

6. Blending. Ajj is about using your opponent's ki and blending with him, not about attrition of inflicting your own ki on him. The latter is more of a karate philosophy as well as the muscle versus technique I mentioned above.

This is just a quick overview of what comes to my mind first. Surely others can add more. Now, you will surely find rjj that employ some of these themes, but the QUALITY of the application of these themes is key. I've heard one very senior rjj practitioner whose name 90% of you would know talk about breaking an opponent's balance, but from watching him on the mat, I did not get the impression he really understood execution and what that mean off of paper, so to speak.

I hope you will find this instructive and will not think that I've sounded like a know-it-all. I've only shared with you what I do know in hopes of answering your question. Frankly, I resent the somewhat elitist attitude that I've experienced from those who profess great wisdom than they possess.

A question for you, Glenn: Where do you live?

Cady Goldfield
9th January 2004, 19:26
Becky,
Good AJJ uses no jerking or muscling at all. It is completely relaxed, and very soft.

Ron Tisdale
9th January 2004, 20:24
Again, as to my experience, my sempai recently had wrist surgery to repair some severely torn cartilage. My sensei has had both of his wrists broken. A very senior sensei I train with had his wrist broken in sankjo by his instructor while training in Japan. That's what I mean by intensity of locks.

Does this strike anyone else as simply a lack of control? Either that, or very bad ukemi?

RT

Cady Goldfield
9th January 2004, 20:42
That's what I was thinking, Ron.
In my experience, complete control can be gained and kept over another without causing joint damage... It can even be done without causing pain - although pain can very easily be added if desired (it is not needed, though, as the opponent is unable to move).

A system that depends on pain and damage to be effective, has some inherent flaws, IMO. Don't get me wrong -- pain and damage can be very useful in combat methodology; they just should not be necessary to make aikijujutsu locks work.

chrismoses
10th January 2004, 01:17
Becky, I find many of your comments to be overgeneralizations. There are some excellent jujutsu schools out there and there are some equally crappy "aikijujutsu" schools. Remember all these naming conventions are pretty new. Jujutsu was one of the catch all terms for fighting with your hands (in general).

If you ever get a chance to check out Toby Treadgill or any of his students from Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin Ryu, you might be surprised how "aiki" he and his students movements can be. If Toby's out there, hope you didn't take that as an insult. ;)

A lot of what people are calling Aikijujutsu these days is either Jujutsu/judo wearing a hakama or Aikido with lots of injuries. I don't think either is a very accurate representation of the real stuff. Hell, even Prof. Ron has an "Ayee-key jujitsu" video series out...

Dale Seago
10th January 2004, 01:46
Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
Becky,
Good AJJ uses no jerking or muscling at all. It is completely relaxed, and very soft.

That seems, from my reading of her post, to be what she was trying to say. . .

Cady Goldfield
10th January 2004, 01:54
Originally posted by Dale Seago
That seems, from my reading of her post, to be what she was trying to say. . .

Oops! You're right, Dale. I misread #5 and thought she was saying the opposite.

Ah well, it's Friday. Time for a glass of sake to add to the brain muddle. :D

Becky Sheetz
10th January 2004, 03:29
"Does this strike anyone else as simply a lack of control? Either that, or very bad ukemi?"

I'd say the same thing if I didn't know each situation. I'm not bragging. I've never hurt anyone due to lack of control nor have any of my teachers. Sure, you get a hyperextension here or there, but sometimes those just happen. But each case was a lock applied well--too well, but that's not the point of my post. I'm unclear on why you chose to focus on what you perceive as the negative in my post instead of helping to address the gentleman's question. I think this is a great forum, but get disconcerted with the negativity that sometimes runs along the undercurrent.

Christian, if these jujitsu folks you are speaking of are using aiki, isn't it aiki-jujitsu then? Maybe I need a definition explained to me. . . Again, I'm posting based on my experience, and I'm sure others have experiences that are different. I did my level best to answer what I believed to be a well-intended question. Other perspectives are welcome, I'm sure.

Dale, thanks for coming to bat for me, sir.

Dale Seago
10th January 2004, 03:59
Becky,

Just on the face of it, Ron Tisdale would seem to have a valid point. On the other hand, I realize these things can sometimes "go bad" on you before you can do anything about it and the technique ends up actually doing what it was designed to do. Your further explanation is helpful.

Christian, if these jujitsu folks you are speaking of are using aiki, isn't it aiki-jujitsu then? Maybe I need a definition explained to me. . . Again, I'm posting based on my experience, and I'm sure others have experiences that are different.
Well, maybe in a techical sense, but the ryuha may not call itself that. For example, in the Takagi Yoshin ryu jutaijutsu which Masaaki Hatsumi teaches, there's far more "aiki" than in most aikido I've seen, but I haven't really heard the term used when training in it in Japan.

As an aside, did you get any of those books on executive protection from ASIS I recommended? If you're still thinking about getting into that line of work, you might want to consider the fact that one of my company's protection teams was ambushed last weekend in Iraq. We did all the right things and fought through, but still lost two agents KIA.

Cady Goldfield
10th January 2004, 14:40
Becky,
One of the inherent flaws of the Internet, is that it limits users to verbalizations. There are some things that can only be communicated by demonstration in person, as I'm sure you realize.

Your aikijujutsu may not be my aikijujutsu, may not be someone else's aikijujutsu. We can never know what those differences are without being on the mats together. So, while we may do our best to verbalize our experiences, there is no way we can accurately convey those experiences in this medium.

Using a loaded term like "aikijujutsu" opens a whole can of confusion, because there are so many interpretations of what "aiki" is, and so few actual authentic lineages of what is generally accepted to be authentic aikijujutsu.

These forums are a poor medium for a subject that needs physical expression.

As for effectiveness as indicated by damage, good jujutsu alone is effective because of the way in which it manipulates and sets up joints for potential damage. The key in training, though, is to stop short of that damage. To go beyond is careless, irresponsible and shows a lack of control and focus, IMO.

Sure -- accidents happen on the mats. Sometimes uke fails to take a breakfall properly or at the right time; other times, tori miscalculates his movements and goes too far in a lock. It doesn't take much to cause damage, whether you're doing p/k or grappling arts. The question is, does the practitioner have the presence of mind to control his power?

Carlos Estrella
10th January 2004, 15:20
Originally posted by chrismoses
Hell, even Prof. Ron has an "Ayee-key jujitsu" video series out...

You haven't truly LIVED unless you've seen it in person - when I was in high school two decades ago I saw him at the Empire State Nationals doing what I am sure HE thought looked cool. It may have even been effective (to be sure, I would've been bewildered enough to pause long enough for his techniques to actually WORK on me!).

FWIW

Carlos

Carlos Estrella
10th January 2004, 15:30
My original jujutsu teacher is in your neck of the woods and he introduced me to Daito Ryu years ago. Although a true beginner here, I have been involved with martial arts in one for or another since the late 70's and have developed some opinions that may be relevant... the Daito Ryu I saw was from what is considered a more "esoteric" school I believe, yet it was definitely effective. I was locked in ways that I can't BEGIN to describe when it comes to the pain, yet my wrists and arms and back and legs, etc. were all ok (except for the usual pain when receiving those locks). NO ONE however, except maybe some of the "experts" from other styles that were at the seminars I went to, showed any lack of restraint or malice, and we all LEARNED!

If the "aiki" you are experiencing requires a call to 911 afterwards (and u r NOT a mugger <g>), then RUN, don't walk, to another school.

FWIW,

Carlos

Cady Goldfield
10th January 2004, 19:43
What Carlos said.

The pain is exquisite. The kind that induces what I like to call, "The Primal Scream" -- it comes straight from the limbic part of the brain, and you swear it's coming from someone else until you realize that everyone is looking at you... ;)

And yet, as soon as the lock is released, the pain is gone. And, there is no damage. Your body releases endorphins, and you walk away feeling better than you did before.

But many of the techniques work without causing pain at all; you can cause pain, but that is not what makes the technique work. It's the mechanical lineup and your subtle internal controlings that make it work.

Some techniques cause pain as a byproduct and you can't help it -- it's just part and parcel of the technique. But the pain is, again, just a byproduct; it's not what is making the technique work.

And, some techniques - kumi uchi particularly - is meant to break spines, rip out shoulders, lethally concuss heads. Do you really want to carry those to fruition in the dojo? There is no room for carelessness. You never perform these methods to fruition. Getting there - the kuzushi, the setup - and taking it right to the edge... where just a fraction more would be lethal... that's plenty and enough.

chrismoses
10th January 2004, 21:11
The term Aiki has been used by various schools of armed and unarmed combat. It's use as a *type* of art seems to have been popularized by Ueshiba Sensei at the suggestion of Onisaburo Deguchi, his spiritual advisor. This makes it a relatively new classification. Daito Ryu adopted the term Aiki after Ueshiba Sensei, apparently Takeda Sensei felt the term was appropriate. I'm not sure what the history is of the Yanagi Ryu's naming, I would suppose that it was initially simply called Yanagi Ryu and the art type was added on later for clarification. Rich, Johnny, any comments?

For me the difference between the Jujutsu I have felt and the Aikijujutsu (and for that matter good Aikido) is "the hole". In a good jujutsu throw, as uke I feel good and dealt with, and I have a pretty good idea of what just happened. In really good Aiki waza, there's always the sensation of falling into "the hole". Hopefully that concept is clear to others out there. I used to attribute that sensation to more moralistic/spiritual explanations, but due to certain, er, training opportunities :) over the last year, I've certainly come to think of that sensation more in mechanical terms. For me, that's really the only discernable difference, and I would argue that any good Jujutsu has aspects of Aiki and that any good Aiki has aspects of Jujutsu. I see them more in analogue terms rather than digital (ie: turn the dial from go-ju-aiki rather than hit a button with no grey area between the paradigms of movement). There, clear as mud...

Finally, Toby's school does not use the term aiki per se, although some of their techniques are referred to as myojutsu (mysterious techniques) and look and feel very much like what is often called aikijutsu.

Thanks in advance for corrections and clarifications, I try to get my facts straight before posting, but you know how it is...

Ron Tisdale
12th January 2004, 15:28
Hi Becky,

No negativity inteneded. Your post left a certain impression, and I asked others if they had the same impression. Apparently at least a few did. Thanks for your clarifications though. I recently had a conversation in the aikido section of this board that someone could interpret in much the same way as I interpreted your comments. So its not like I'm picking on you...just calling them as I see them. The trick is not to take it personally.

Take care,
Ron

Cady Goldfield
12th January 2004, 17:08
Ditto what Ron said!

Glenn Lapierre
13th January 2004, 05:03
Sorry to not have gotten back to my post sooner, but I have been taking in all that has taken place, and happy to see the responses that all of you have posted in my regards.

One of the reasons that I posted my original question of the differences between AJJ and Jujutsu, is the fact that I have been wondering about counter attacts against kicking. What does one do then? Does AJJ or Daito Ryu have defence against kicking? Is there a MA that uses the Aiki for strikes like Aikido, covers grappling and groundwork like Judo, and learns to defend against feet, and if so is it Aiki?

And Becky, I live an hour out of Vancouver BC. I may be doing some traveling ther in the future for some training. My arm is getting better slowly, but I will have to give it a month or so after it feels 100%.

Cady Goldfield
13th January 2004, 14:54
Glenn,
I can't speak for gendai jujutsu, as I haven't a background in it, but traditional and classical/koryu jujutsu are famous for counters to kicking. Keep in mind that anything you can do to lock a striking or punching arm, you can do to a kicking leg, with very effective and powerful results. Aikijujutsu, provided it's the real thing (i.e. from a classical/koryu system) is jujutsu with aiki. In that respect, it uses the same vectors as jujutsu, but is powered by the additional "perks" that aiki offers.

I came to these arts from a long background in karate and early taekwondo (which was karate), and so am an experienced kicker, puncher and striker. Knowing (through legs-on and hands-on experience)what I know now, I would never try to kick a jujutsuka/aikijujutsuka without a very good strategic setup!

Ron Tisdale
13th January 2004, 15:01
Daito ryu and Aikido both deal with kicks well, in my opinion. The kicks that are most problematic are the same ones that cause problems for any other style; low, stomping kicks, thai kicks to the large muscles on the legs, knees (if you include them as kicks) during close in grappling.

For aikido, if you presume entering correctly (never presume), kicks aren't really much of an issue as far as which technique to use. I see the styles that disregard blocking / parrying as having the most problem here. For someone who uses kicking as a pre-emble to hand techniques, your maai turns out to be a little closer to a weapons maai. These long range kickers are not too difficult to handle if you are used to entering with both x-step and shuffle-step movements.

People who set up their kicks with punches, moving comfortably in and out of both ranges are much harder to deal with in my experience. Here, an ability to parry, use passing blocks, and atemi (all found in some styles of aikido), comes in very handy.

The biggest problem is fighters who like close in standing grappling (thai boxers esp.). They don't mind getting hit, they use knees and short stomping kicks as well as traditional thai kicks, and if they are able to tie you up, you're toast. So you have to get to the safe spot, get them to turn into or away from you, and use that momentum to work your technique from there.

The bottom line is, enter, ushiro nage, irminage, sokomen iriminage, make them turn into you with elbows or strikes, and use those handles for your other techniques. I'll let someone with more experience in Daito ryu speak to that if they wish.

Ron (all this is just in my experience only...find a good fighter to train with and test, test, test)

Nathan Scott
13th January 2004, 17:59
[Post deleted by user]

Cady Goldfield
13th January 2004, 18:58
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Sounds like "East Coast Style"! ;)


:laugh:
Yer a bad boy, Nathan.

Nathan Scott
14th January 2004, 08:34
[Post deleted by user]

Becky Sheetz
19th January 2004, 19:19
Thanks to you all for your responses from what I admit may have been a defensive post (from me) at the outset. I really can't comment on my one instructor's wrist being broken in Japan. He did not elaborate except to say that his teacher was demonstrating a technique, broke it and then told him it would heal. Was it intentional? I don't know. As for my sempai, he had repeated injuries to his wrist, even under VERY controlled situations and locks. Upon examination, doctors learned that his bone structure in his wrist is highly abnormal and makes nikyo not such a good idea for him to take. We know that now, but didn't know it any of the times he was injured. We thought it was a bad sprain, and that's what they said when he went to the emergency room. This has taught us all to treat large, otherwise inactive people very gingerly, however, until we understand their bodies better. I'm sorry if I puffed up my feathers and insulted/mislead anyone.

Dale, I have not made the information you sent me a priority at this point, but do plan to look into it in the future. I'm sorry for the loss to your group and truly hope you, your wife and your colleages will remain safe.

Chrismoses, are you refering to the disillusionment of of aiki related throws when you refer to "falling into the hole?"

Andrew
19th January 2004, 19:55
Hey Cady,
How were the hollidays? Whats everyone been up to? Where has Dan been? I have not herd from him in a while. Maybe its the East Coast training. Well having fun in the sun. Wish everyone was here. drop a line any time.

Cady Goldfield
19th January 2004, 21:52
Hey Andy!
Nice to hear from another one o' them brutal East Coasters. :D

The weather has been nasty cold. We broke records in orcester and Boston. Soak up the balmy Cuban breezes while you can.
You should just call Dan. He is too swamped to read e-mail or E-Budo lately. I'll let him know you've been dropping by E-Budo occasionally.

Please don't break anyone's wrists or dislocate any shoulders down there. We need all our troops. ;)

chrismoses
19th January 2004, 23:39
'Chrismoses, are you refering to the disillusionment of of aiki related throws when you refer to "falling into the hole?"'
-Becky

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, are you asking if I'm disinchanted with Aiki throws or that I've seen through the illusion typically built up around the mechanical explanations of Aiki throws?

(Genuinely not trying to be difficult here, just didn't want to answer and have to retract my statement after further clarification.)

;-)

Becky Sheetz
20th January 2004, 01:48
Oh, what I meant was were you describing the method of, as uke, being unbalancing and disorienting as the sensation of falling into the hole? I'm not quite sure what you mean, but I'd like to understand it better. Thanks in advance.

ChrisMoon
20th January 2004, 04:15
Originally posted by szczepan
Sooooo both of you are saing that Traditional Jujutsu or Aiki-jujutsu have sparrings? Do you practice sparring on regular basic? What are rules? Are there juges?
I'm sorry, I didn't know that.
I would like to know, that is a name of school that practices those sparrings, and if one can observe it?

ps. instructor with sparring background, but who teachs in traditional way, doesn't count, of course.:D
I undestand that in your dojo ppl with no sparring history spar, do they?


Szczepan seems like you might already have your mind made up but Takenouchi Ryu does have sparring. I am willing to bet it is not the only one, it is just the one I have experience with so far.

Steve Delaney
20th January 2004, 05:16
Tenjin Shinyo ryu also contains sparring in it's syllabus. FYI

gnu2thisplanet
20th January 2004, 21:19
Originally posted by Ron Tisdale
Does this strike anyone else as simply a lack of control? Either that, or very bad ukemi?

RT

Actually, when I studied a ajj in Japan, being an outsider, I was intentionally damaged by senior shihan to the point of needing medical attention. This goes on not through lack of skill but application of it.

Sebago Suazo

Becky Sheetz
20th January 2004, 21:26
gnu2thisplanet, what was your response? Did you quit? Heal and go on? Find another dojo? Just curious . . .

don
20th January 2004, 22:57
Originally posted by gnu2thisplanet
Actually, when I studied a ajj in Japan, being an outsider, I was intentionally damaged by senior shihan to the point of needing medical attention.

Who were you studying with?

chrismoses
21st January 2004, 00:05
"Actually, when I studied a ajj in Japan, being an outsider, I was intentionally damaged by senior shihan to the point of needing medical attention. This goes on not through lack of skill but application of it."
-Sebago Suazo

I'd say that was an excellent example that a__-holes are everywhere, not just stateside...

Nathan Scott
21st January 2004, 00:53
[Post deleted by user]

MarkF
21st January 2004, 13:36
The dojo is not for injuring others - this is reserved for "bad guys". Your partners are your classmates, and even if you are the "teacher", you're all learning together and cannot do so without each other. There is an implied trust when performing techniques on each other that shite will do their best to perform techniques to their aite at a level that is just short of causing serious injury

Thank God for that. IF it weren't true, after forty years of making that many enemies, the last twenty would have been spent in a cave somewhere, playing randori with a tengu or something, I'm sure I would have thought was real by now.

I don't think I have trained at any dojo doing any thing that didn't have some form of randori/sparring/freestyle, or anything else one wishes to call it, but some want to show off by showing just how much pain they can inflict. Screaming loudly should be notice that if one goes any further your friend will become your enemy.

Taryu jiai does have a long record, going back a long way, even the full-bore safe kind has a long history. Effective technique to the loser was probably of more value simply because the loser found something better than what he brought to the game.

Jikishin-ryu, a precursor to kito-ryu had a form of freestyle or 'ran' as early as the late 18th century and even called the style Judo (or more probably jiu no michi). Still, whether you wish to call it modern or otherwise, most does have early roots, and I'm sure a few "discussions" broke out well before the Internet and CyberSpace.

Thankfully, most "discussions" ended sometime in Meiji or we would be arguing over painful dentistry or something equally exquisite in delivering pain.


Mark F.

gnu2thisplanet
22nd January 2004, 04:59
Hello Again,

I was delayed in posting because of technical difficulties.

Those were interesting responses to my post.

Regarding who I was training with? I must say that since none of them are public figures, it would certainly be a breach of etiquette to discuss them in a public forum. But If I had, they would now be known as A-holes teaching in a dojo that is to be avoided.

In the old days when I used to read a lot of martial arts books I found a number of references to the severe greetings that gaijin students could expect when visiting traditional dojo.

For me the really interesting question is how did I handle it? Bandages, accupunture, and the knowlegde that it couldn't go on forever. I look back on it now as a rite of passage. At the time I would have begged to have it stop if I thought that would have helped.

cheers

Sebago Suazo

Joseph Svinth
22nd January 2004, 05:57
You know what Leopold von Sacher-Masoch said: "Whoever allows himself to be whipped, deserves to be whipped."

Dan Harden
25th January 2004, 15:41
Andy
I sent you two replies toyour private email and when you reply its as if you didnlt read them-sort of like starting fresh.
Did the military censor them or something?
Good to hear yer showing the boys who want to bang with lug like you what "old style" can do.
remember to play nice.
I'll try firing off another one with my real email address. I am working instead of going to church today(Kate went up me one side then the other..ain't ever gonna teach HER jujutsu)
When you coming home? How is the family?
Glad to see you avoided this nonsense here. As Nathan has reminded us no one here should be discussing anything about anything till we're all menkyo-which none of us will ever be so.............
become Japanese and get one in six to fifteen years and be anywhere from excellent to just an embaressment.


I have a question or two
What is Aiki?
What works?....really
How does one know, how would one know.
Can you bang with it?
Then you're only guessing about it-and-you.
I have met VERY few who can answer that to my satisfaction.

Dan

Dan Harden
25th January 2004, 16:17
I tried to go back and delete my entire post as I promised myself I would never post here again. I forgot E-budo's time limit.
Andy don't respond here-just email me.

Have fun
Dan

John Lindsey
25th January 2004, 16:35
I tried to go back and delete my entire post as I promised myself I would never post here again.

Bye Dan.

gravity121
22nd February 2008, 14:06
Hi guys,

I have been looking through a lot of threads and forums and either haven't found the answers or the thread that gives the answers. Can any tell me the difference between

jujutsu
aikijujutsu
aikijitsu

also can anyone tell me the meaning of the names. ie, taekwondo the way of the hand and the foot.

Thanks

No1'sShowMonkey
22nd February 2008, 16:33
This is a pretty well discussed topic on here, actually.

If any of you more experienced / learned types on here read this and find error or weakness, please fix my mistakes and give me a good thrashing.

This thread (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2006) and this thread over at Budoseek (http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=13340) contain frank discussion about the central issues of aikijujutsu. There are probably other really very good ones, but I appreciate this thread's straight forwardness. Also, a good deal of the posters are coming directly from Aikijujutsu lineages (but also, several of the key posters are distinctly NOT aikijujutsu practitioners. gotta love objective argumentation.) and can speak in an educated fashion about the subject matter.

In short:

Jujutsu - The Art or Study Of (Jutsu) Pliancy, Flexibility, Gentleness (Ju). Jujutsu can be subdivided many times on many criteria. Several of the key subdivisions are:

1) Koryu Jujutsu. "Koryu" refers to 'classical' martial arts - a much debated topic that implies a creation of pedagogy before the end if the Meiji era and the end of the samurai class. Koryu jujutsu is often sogobudo, meaning that it has large amounts of armed techniques - this is because koryu jujutsu comes from a time when Japan was a weaponized society and often jujutsu had its genesis in battlefield techniques.

2) Goshin / Gendia Jujutsu - Goshin translates as 'self defense', roughly. Gendia translates as 'new' or 'contemporary'(?).

a - Goshinjutsu is the art or techniques of self defense and is a 'defanged' version of koryujujutsu based largely off of the evolutionary development of Judo by Jigoro Kano during the late 19th and early 20th century. Most modern goshinjutsu are 'Gendai Budo' - see below.

b - Gendai jujutsu is a form of jujutsu with its nascent moment after the Meiji Restoration. Depending on who you talk to, this can even include the much vaunted Daito Ryu. Other famous ryu include Hakko Ryu (http://www.hakkoryu.com/display/dsp_main.cfm?page=introduction) or Danzan Ryu (http://www.danzan.com/). Even Aikido (though aikido is generally just referred to as 'gendai budo'). Generally these systems, being based in koryu, have 'koryu waza' - techniques that are directly linked to the old styles - mixed in with more modern applications, teaching or organizational methods.

Often times Gendai jujutsu are centered on a distinctly demilitarized teaching style as without the necessity of the Sengoku Jidai - the Warring States period of nearly uninterupted civil war in Japan - which was the raison d'etre for jujutsu, gendai arts are more 'civilian' as a result and tend to have a more humane philosophy that de-emphasizes the killing and instead emphasizes spiritual development or harmony. This is strikingly similar to the jutsu-do paradigm.

3) Juijitsu / Jujitsu - Though spelling is a strange demarcation, generally speaking the e-budo (and to a certain extent the martial arts community at large) consider these two spelling subdivisions to indicate one of two phenomenon - derivations of catch wrestling or other forms of "grabs 'em and beats 'em" styles of fighting that are currently popular in MMA and Brazilian Juijitsu as made popular by the Gracie family.

a - "Grabs 'em and beats 'em": Turn on WEC, UFC, WFC (Whatever Fighting Championship) and you will see tons of practitioners of this 'style'. Heavily adapted from shoot fighting, catch wrestling, sambo, judo and a few other things thrown in for spice, this kind of fighting is easily recognized.

b - Brazilian / Gracie Jujitsu - These guys (http://www.gracieacademy.com/) are currently vogue throughout the world after taking the UFC by storm in the '90s. From what I understand, their style is based centrally around ground fighting and is a derivative of Judo / Kano Jujutsu style methods of throwing and joint locking; the 'ne waza' or ground fighting in Judo / Kano jujutsu in particular.

Aikijujutsu - The Art or Study of Pliant, Flexible, Gentle Harmonized Energy. That is a crappy definition that is a sloppy semi-direct translation. I hope that someone will step in and give me a good slapping and say 'this is what it really means, you dolt'.

As explained in the linked articles Aikijujutsu refers to a particular kind of martial art based around key lineages from the Aizu prefecture in Japan. These include (to the best of my knowledge) Yanagi ryu and Daito ryu. These are, as far as I know, the only accepted ryu of genuine aikijujutsu. I would trust the words of someone from that community first, however.

These arts are based around cultivation of certain martial skills in the practitioner to exploit momentary advantage in a sudden and seemingly fantastic way. There are tons of explanations as to the hows and whys of this very moment but This Particular Article (http://swordforumbugei.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1202), I felt, did a great deal to give me perspective on what/why aikijujutsu was - far more so than any cursory discussion before.

I believe that one of the more distinctive and interesting bits of Daito Ryu is the pedagogy contained therein... Which leads to the next section.

a - Aikijujutsu in the rougher form / Daito ryu jujutsu - Daito ryu includes several arms in its teaching. One of these is jujutsu a la Daito ryu. Famous practitioners include Morihei Ueshiba. From what I understand, this is an advanced form of jujutsu but is mechanically just jujutsu, though it does lay the groundwork for later study.

b - Aikijutsu - This term would refer to the 'aiki enlightened', advanced and sophisticated techniques of Daito ryu that employ aiki in open hand fighting. The use of aiki principles provides those moments of incredible ability from timing, sensitivity and extreme skill.

c - Aiki no waza - Aiki no waza translates as "aiki technique" in that these are the principles of aiki boiled down and taught to cultivate that particular method of sensitivity and timing in a student. Again, pedagogy is a core piece of understanding here: the student learns isolated, difficult to explain and understand skills through a very particular method of teaching a very particular thing.

Again, I must point out that this is just based off of my own reading and research - hardly exhaustive compared to the work done by many of the people here.

I leave the post to those of the boards to clarify, challenge and otherwise fix.

- Chris McGaw

Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter.
~ Ernest Hemmingway

No1'sShowMonkey
22nd February 2008, 16:36
Oh and it is e-budo policy to post your full name with every post. You agreed to this when you signed up. Mods are pretty strict about this.

- Chris McGaw

Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter.
~ Ernest Hemmingway

Cady Goldfield
22nd February 2008, 16:39
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jujutsu
Found that on Google. :)

gravity121
22nd February 2008, 22:26
Thanks for the info Chris, very detailed. I appreciate it and the links. Its good to get definitions of the names too. Sorry bout the name thing, didn't have my signature set up earlier.

Nathan Scott
24th March 2008, 21:30
[Post deleted by user]

Nathan Scott
27th April 2010, 19:48
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