Have you guys ever have put on some Kali armor and just gone ape on each other?

[shonuff]

You guys know that a lot of kali guys like to whack each other. Have you guys ever dreamed of going off and ordering yourself a jo length rattan staff and whacking some dudes with it?

I've been having certain urges of adapting the jo to whacking on those who practice the indonesian stick arts and those who use similar length sticks. Let the quarterstaffs and kali stick perish.

Heh heh. . .

[ChrisMoon]

Oh no it is happening here too...

[gmlc123]

Sounds like you need to find a Kendo dojo and a comptitive sport for the ego than an art like Jo.

A post truly worth deleting.


Originally posted by shonuff
whacking some dudes with it?

I've been having certain urges ...

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by shonuff
Let the quarterstaffs and kali stick perish.
And this thread, as well.

[Chuck.Gordon]

You get ARMOR in Kali nowadays?

Geez, back when I sampled a couple of years with one of Inosanto's students, we didn't GET armor. We got whacked.

Seriously.

And as for putting on armor to test jo waza ... whyever FOR?

It's not as if it's a method designed for 21st century combat. It's a wonderful thing, but it ain't military CQC ...

Sigh.

Chuck
(Who really enjoys classical budo, but has no illusions about it's 'combat' effectiveness in the modern battlefield or street corner)

[shonuff]

Gonnosuke is stirring in his grave. The guy liked getting into scrums as the legend goes. WTH? Remember the whole story about him? How he lost and decided to pay Musashi back? And developed his own Jo fighting system. . . GEEZ!!!

Aiki-Jo people need not apply to whacking people around with jos. Too violent for you.

Gonnosuke's jo was a dueling weapon. Time to whack some people around. Time to pick on kendoka, too. ::evil_look::

Escrima guys do wear armor. Gungfu.com and Kombat Instruments sells Kali armor. They got tired of mixing and matching kendo, fencing, and hockey equipment.

Many of the dudes who do the indonesian, indian, and thai stick whacking arts use staffs of similar size to the jo whack each other. I think street cops in indonesia use a staff like the jo.

Just cause it's a "traditional" japanese/okinawan weapon doesn't mean you can't use it to bust on some thugs. Look at the tonfa and how cops beat down people with it.

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by shonuff
Gonnosuke is stirring in his grave. The guy liked getting into scrums as the legend goes. WTH? Remember the whole story about him? How he lost and decided to pay Musashi back? And developed his own Jo fighting system. . . GEEZ!!!

Gonnosuke's jo was a dueling weapon. Time to whack some people around. Time to pick on kendoka, too. ::evil_look::
In Gonnosuke's time people also duelled to the death. Shall we be really traditional and bring that back, as well?

The title of this forum is Koryu Bugei: Jo. "Going ape" on each other is not part of Koryu Bugei.

Perhaps you should be on another forum; realultimatepower.com maybe. Or watching The Last Dragon over and over again. Bruce Leroy had some real moves, didn't he? The Shogun of Harlem tried going ape on him, but he kicked some butt! Sho 'nuff! :rolleyes:

[ulvulv]

Than the name should be changed to
Sicko Whacko Dude Jo Jutsu

Maybe the kamae as well:

Whacky no kamae
Motherfuc kasumi no kamae
Jo-Man no kamae
etc etc

[Mekugi]

I heard someone once say:

This isn't a silly game, huckleberry.

Although I do find duct taping pillows around myself and having my 8 and 12 year old cousins chase me around with wiffle bats a lot of fun.

"I AM PILLOWMAN! YOU SHALL NOT STOP ME MWAAHAHAHAA!"

[shonuff]

I'm not talking about killing people. The dog brothers whack themselves with sticks and have pitbulls as their school symbol. I would hardly consider them nitwits. They are respected martial artists who whack each other with sticks, duel each other, and don't kill each other.

Modifying the traditional jo training for more sports oriented duelling isn't a bad idea. The kenjutsu guys did it with kendo.

[Mekugi]

<post deleted>

AHHHHH forget it..I was going to say something dry and witty. Pshaw.

-R

[ChrisMoon]

<post deleted>


Awww shucks, I had a great one liner reply all set up.

[Jack B]

<post deleted>

Me too.

[ulvulv]

oh, you guys are so smart and literate, where do you get all that inspiration?


:nw: :nw: :nw:

[Neil Yamamoto]

I dink it’s a good idea t' bash each odeh wid dgo t' learn bou' what works 'n doesn’t. I regular habe my students attack me wid a jo or bokkan 'n while I’be been hit numehous times in de gord, I habe suffehid no loss of cognitibe abiltiby at all. Real, I haben’t. Lee me lone!not at all… really….

[Joseph Svinth]

Japanese MA are, like everything else in Japan, kata-based. Indeed, they must be, otherwise they lose their Japanese character. So, given this, why try to make them something they're not?

On the other hand, if you've always dreamed of whacking fellow masochists with your woodie, then what's wrong with trying one the many extant arts that do just that?

For example, if you like Western MA, look into singlestick or juego del palo. See, for instance, http://ejmas.com/jmanly/articles/2002/jmanlyart_wolf_0202.htm and http://ejmas.com/jwma/articles/2000/jwmaart_wolf_0500.html .

Likewise, if you live in Africa, then try one of the indigenous arts. An example is South Africa's Nguni stick fighting. See, for instance, http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_Coetzee_0902.htm .

[shonuff]

The techniques and motions gone through cross over in many staff arts. But one thing I've seen from stick fighting videos is that the people with short staves use their staves like a bokken or baseball bat. They won't shift their hands, change their stance, shorten their grip. They strike with the short staff as they do with a sword. They keep the stick in a fixed grip. It's like they are whacking with a shinai.

I was wondering if you could get away with all the hand shifting and sliding with grappling gloves on.

What does sparring have to do with the kata? Learn the kata. . . learn the basic striking motions and then go out and put your striking ability to the test.

[ulvulv]

before you are able to test your techniques in a "hostile" environment, you have to know your stuff pretty good. As jodo is a highly complex and diverse art, such mastery takes some time too achieve. My guess is that the more you work to achieve a proficiency in this art, the less interested you are in putting your abilities at "test". Not because you are afraid that all those years of practise add up to nothing in "the real world", but the true test of your ability does not lay in beating a guy around wearing padded gear. There are plenty of arts that have gone trough quite a degree of degeneration trough the adding of sporting and sparring elements. i am not talking about kendo, which I personally view as a good martial art that I kow trough practise. It is good to get out in the shiaijo, and have a go at the opponent. Beating people trough superiour technique and spirit is a great experience( I have been told ;) ), but too much shiai and to little basic and kata , and your form rots away.
To spar in jodo seems quite meaningless. I had a great practise-experience with a aikidoka somewhat ten years ago though. he knew that I had done some jodo, and he knew his aiki-jo quite well after many years. We chased eachother around the dojo for quite a while, putting both effort and intent into it. It was a great test to timing, reaction, handling and movement. Padding would just allowed sloppiness. I discovered that there was many thing from my "regular" jodo that i couldnt do. That does not prove that those techniques are bad.
As an inspiring excperience-yes
As something to do on a weekly basis as part of my practise-hardly. Dojo-time is to precious too waste on such play on a regular basis.
if you want a fullblast whack-experience, do kendo, instead of trying too invent a new "way".
Picking up a long chanbara- stick, "whackwhack-gotcha!!" doesnt prove or develop a thing.


:nin: :karatekid :nin: :karatekid :nin: :karatekid

[gmlc123]

You're missing the point, that the art of Jo is for pure self-defence ie. counter attacking only. If you attack first, you WILL be hurt. BTW where in the SMR kata is there an example of Shidachi attacking someone.

If you really wanted to test your skills then why the armour? scared of being hurt?

If you're referring to Shu-ha-ri in your statement below.. then your concept of this is a little misguided. Along with you understanding of Mu (egoless), which is what I personally find an offense to the art of Jo with your comments on bastardising it for the sake of your own urges.


Originally posted by shonuff

What does sparring have to do with the kata? Learn the kata. . . learn the basic striking motions and then go out and put your striking ability to the test.

[Jack B]

Would you consider shidachi as initiating in Hosomichi? What about the preemptions of imminent attack in Ichiriki, Oshizume and Seigan? Several of Okuden appear to be preemptive also.

How about after crossing weapons, as in Kasumi etc?

[gmlc123]

Uchidachi always initiates, even in the Chudan Kata you mention.. ie. uchidachi places his right hand on tsuka. His intent is to draw and cut you down.

In Hosomichi the same applies, except that for safety you don't put your hand on the tsuka until after Shidachi strikes. In application, uchidachi would do so b4 you strike, and Shidachi would also use kesa giri, not men as your initial strike.

Kasumi is just like tachiotoshi. Awase (meeting of swords) is symbolic, and in application uchidachi is going to cut you from Hasso... not meet at Awase. If you've ever seen Tachi otoshi done in application you'll know what I mean.

Kata form and application of Kata are slightly different things. In any event, you may seemingly react in certain kata pre-emptively, but this is only after uchidachi has initiated the threat against you and you counter or temporarily break his intent depending on the particular Kata.

[ulvulv]

question from a lowly seitei-ist with only sporadic exposure to koryu: In the kasumi-application you describe, do you perform hikiotoshi as the swordsman attacks you? I mean, as you do not meet in chudan versus kasumi no kamae. Where does he attack? I dont clearly see how much you have to peel of the original kata to do this application. Care to do a small description? Direct action from kasumi no kamae to gyakute uchi?

[Andy Watson]

...that's uchidachi and shijo not shidachi.

I have heard it said that in all kata's where the shijo appears to initiate the attack, that this is a pre-emptive counter-attack.

That may or may not be taken with a bit of tongue in cheek.

[gmlc123]

hmmmm. Hikiotoshi.. no. Not quite sure if you're asking about Shidachi's targets or Uchidachi's? and whether you're referring to how the Jo strike works directly from the kamae ie. first sequence only?

Uchidachi's opening sequence in the example application is to cut from hasso directly with kesa giri hasuji to the closest open target available on shidachi in kamae (next time u do the kata as uchidachi, walk in and think about it.. while shidachi waits in kamae)

Shidachi Kamae. The kamae in Kasumi is a traditional koryu bojutsu kamae.. and in regards to Jo application and response to uchidachi's opening attack I've seen the application done similar to Bo ie. the first two moves or sequences are bit like tachi otoshi, and another that involves just the first sequence from kamae. The latter involved irimi ie. moving offline and the other using kiri-otoshi (relates to de-ai or timing) principle of uchikomi (penetrating strike) whilst not moving off-line.

Does that help? sorry if I misunderstood your question.



Originally posted by ulvulv
question from a lowly seitei-ist with only sporadic exposure to koryu: In the kasumi-application you describe, do you perform hikiotoshi as the swordsman attacks you? I mean, as you do not meet in chudan versus kasumi no kamae. Where does he attack? I dont clearly see how much you have to peel of the original kata to do this application. Care to do a small description? Direct action from kasumi no kamae to gyakute uchi?

[Andy Watson]

SHIJO!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

:smash:

[ulvulv]

Originally posted by Andy Watson
SHIJO!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

:smash:

Doesntttt theeeee ticccccccs affect your jo-pppppppractise?

[Andy Watson]

Y-y-y-y...yy-y--y--y-y-y-y-yy-ye-y-ye-OF COURSE THEY BLOODY DO!

[Earl Hartman]

May I ask where you have heard the term "shijo" used? I have never heard anyone use it, at least in the koryu group in which I practice. Is it a seitei thing?

[gmlc123]

Likewise, I've never heard Nishioka Sensei or Relnick Sensei ever use the term shijo to refer to shidachi.

Where is it from? is it something a teacher made up so that foreign students wouldn't confuse uchidachi and shidachi.

Either way, we all know what we mean... shidachi=shijo=shidachi.

[Bambi]

Originally posted by shonuff
I'm not talking about killing people. The dog brothers whack themselves with sticks and have pitbulls as their school symbol. I would hardly consider them nitwits. They are respected martial artists who whack each other with sticks, duel each other, and don't kill each other.



errmm no, it aint. Unless it's a pitbull with some serious hormone problems. It's an Akita you twonk. :rolleyes:

I'd love to have that as an advert for the arnis guys i train with "we don't kill each other" ;)

[Andy Watson]

Aha, maybe this is something which has only emerged from seitei jodo. It is written using these terms in the ZNKR manual.

Regards

[Earl Hartman]

Well, just as I suspected. No wonder I had never heard of it.

Glad we cleared that up.