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View Full Version : I would not have told that (or why doesn't Ed Boyd like Suparimpei)



Gene Williams
4th January 2004, 20:12
Hi Ed :D
In a thread a while back, I remember you said you didn't see much to Suparimpei:o Well, I taught it this morning to my senior student. I haven't taught that kata before, although I have been doing it for about 10 years. I've just never had anyone senior enough to learn it yet. It gave me a chance to reflect on the kata a bit. You are right that it is mostly basics (all kata are, aren't they;) ), but it is definitely a kata for someone who has been training for many years. The techniques and stepping in the kata, as well as the breathing, assume a level of focus and power that takes a while to develop. Any way, just wanted to start some more discussion of this really interesting kata.

CEB
4th January 2004, 23:20
Yes and when you remove the repeated postures the stepping and techniques come alive even more. The repetitions hide the waza if that makes any sense. Probably doesn't, I'm not good with words.

Breathing can get real involved, depends on the teacher. Alot of people do the form without many of the distinct breathing patterns we do. ( pechurin lite :) )

Heck don't wait for people to be senior enough to learn it. If you do that they'll be too old to do the damn 360 cresent kick followed by the double mae tobi geri. :) Brown belts should learn the pattern fine enough. Just don't teach them the secret stuff ;)

But my favorite katas are still Shisochin, Kururunfa,Tensho and Sanchin. ( also Naihanchi Shodan but don't tell anybody that isn't really one of ours).

There are some really interesting things that could be discussed here if you would lead us on a discussions section by section of the form. We would need more than me and you for this to be interesting. Lets see if there is interest. Just comparing breathing paterrns and hand techniques could be kind of neat. I like the Shito Ryu version its kind of cool too and there are differeneces in Goju versions.

shisochin#1
5th January 2004, 00:01
Well damn you always miss the good stuff when you just cant get your self out of bed. Maybe I can get motivated next sunday.Sorry I missed yall this morning.

Gene Williams
5th January 2004, 11:43
Hi Ed, We do not do a nidan geri after the mikazuki/turn; just a regular mae tobi geri. We do the breathing, but not as heavy as goju, shorter breaths. Lots of ippon ken, relying on accuracy to small, vital targets rather than power/hydrostatic shock. I notice that when Higaonna does the kata, he steps in hanmi a lot. I always tend toward sanchin, at least in "feeling" even if my stance is more straight up. I was taught that the punches after the gedan uke and ude uke go right over the wrist of the blocking hand. The beginning of this kata is much like Seisan. Lots of hip on the turns!

Rob Alvelais
5th January 2004, 16:22
Originally posted by CEB
[B]
Heck don't wait for people to be senior enough to learn it. If you do that they'll be too old to do the damn 360 cresent kick followed by the double mae tobi geri. :) Too late, Ed! ;-)

But my favorite katas are still Shisochin, Kururunfa,Tensho and Sanchin. ( also Naihanchi Shodan but don't tell anybody that isn't really one of ours).
Lovely kata that Kururunfa. I think the Goju version is more aesthetic.


Rob

Rob Alvelais
5th January 2004, 16:27
Originally posted by Gene Williams
[B]Hi Ed, We do not do a nidan geri after the mikazuki/turn; just a regular mae tobi geri.

In the *real* shito version, ;-) :-P

It's a different tobi geri. Front leg kicks first.

Rob

Gene Williams
5th January 2004, 16:40
Our's does, too:p We end right foot back after turn, step with right then kick left, then right...so there:nw: But it isn't nidan geri, just mae tobi geri. Kururunfa is a great kata. On the throw after juji uke, do you bend at the waist or drop to a squat? Kuniba used to do one thing sometime and another later. I drop to a squat because that feels right and it is what I have seen most.

Rob Alvelais
5th January 2004, 18:18
Originally posted by Gene Williams
Kururunfa is a great kata. On the throw after juji uke, do you bend at the waist or drop to a squat? Kuniba used to do one thing sometime and another later. I drop to a squat because that feels right and it is what I have seen most.


Bend at the waist. That's how Kenzo Mabuni teaches it. I've not looked at the Shito Kai version in some time, but I think they do too. Anyway, I do know that the goju version squats down, and yes, the squat makes one feel less self-conscious.

Rob

CEB
5th January 2004, 19:20
Originally posted by Gene Williams
The beginning of this kata is much like Seisan. Lots of hip on the turns

Go to the very beginning before any turns. Something I do that not every body does or at least they do not stress as much as some others do is the degree or sinking after the 3 sanchin punches. The part where the wrists pull in and the palms push out. The stance softens here and dan tien sinks down. A lot of kata now is real rigid. The head should not necessarily stay very level in kata ( depends on the kata and level of the practitioner and reason for the kata etcÖ) Then again you donít want your beginners being too loosey goosey with out any strength in their legs or posture.

What did survive (hopefully) from southern chinese kungfu in our kata are the 4 cornerstone principles of sinking, rising, swallowing and spitting. These are methods of power generation. You can think of this as coiling and rising, pulling and pushing. Most Goju doesnít start until you are very in close. It is a grappling system design to control you opponent to put him in postion that you can control him and kill him with you strikes if you have too. In some versions Pechurin you should see a lot of coiling and sinking in this opening move. You should see this sinking in Seisan also in the opening when the right hand open hand cuts down on the left open hand.


Originally posted by Gene Williams
Hi Ed, We do not do a nidan geri after the mikazuki/turn; just a regular mae tobi geri.
But when you land in Shiko dachi you are probably at 90 degrees to the front. A lot of Goju is and I think Shito Ryu does also. I do a 45 degree Shiko Dachi. Iíve have been taught both. The 45 I think is older and it fits the bunkai better IMO.


Originally posted by Gene Williams
We do the breathing, but not as heavy as goju, shorter breaths. Lots of ippon ken, relying on accuracy to small, vital targets rather than power/hydrostatic shock.

The breathing isnít necessarily heavy. Especially in the opening. There are 3 ways to do Sanchin. Most people do Pechurin with Moderate Sanchin breathing without the heavy tension (Sanchin method #2). The first Sanchin method is used for developing muscle strength and is not recomended for older students. My teacher told me I should not do Sanchin that way anymore. I donít feel that old. The third way to do Sanchin is with no dynamic tension and very very quickly. After you are taught Seisan our Sensei says it becomes practitioners choice which way you open your katas that have Sanchin punching ( slow or fast). Seisan is the next to last kata in our syllabus. I know some dojo in our org. that teach Seisan for Sandan though. I usually do the punches quickly.

You can breath very loudly without tension. Loud breathing isnít harmful or necessarily real tense Ibuki. It has to do using the voice box to push a lot of air through a small hole I think. I have a habit of breathing real loud because I want people to hear my breathing patterns when I do kata. I catch myself in the dojo alone doing this and it aggravates me. I donít mean to do it then. No real harm other than a dry throat sometimes, but there is know good reason for it either just habit.

What I meant by ďBreathing can get real involved, depends on the teacher. Alot of people do the form without many of the distinct breathing patterns we do. ( pechurin lite )Ē wasnít in refenernce to the heaviness of breath but was that some people just forgo the intricate patterns. A breathing pattern that builds lung capacity and ties the techniques into the 4 principle cornerstones is during the double tora guchi followed by ura kake uke grab yonnukite portion of the kata. On the tora guchi (mawashi uke) it is full inhale and partial outhale on the open hand presses. That means you are retaining breath then you let it all out on the nukite. Some people donít have this they just inhale and exhale fully on every technique.

Originally posted by Gene Williams
I notice that when Higaonna does the kata, he steps in hanmi a lot. I always tend toward sanchin, at least in "feeling" even if my stance is more straight up.

That is probably the same stance we call Re no ji dachi. We use it in Seiunchin but not in Pechurin

Originally posted by Gene Williams
I was taught that the punches after the gedan uke and ude uke go right over the wrist of the blocking hand.

There are two places where we punch right over the wrist. One is where you speak of though our ďude ukeĒ is done with either open hands or with ippon ken. The other is earlier follow the turn and Ďdouble punching looking thingiesí after you step forward the top arms bend in and drops then the bottom hand punches over the wrist. Interesting thing to note here. I do not chamber the hand before punching over the top. I was taught it came from where it is. I think most chamber before the punch now. Iíve seen old footage of Shinjo recently and was happy to see that he does this the same way. Then I saw some video footage of Shinjo later in life and then he chambered but then again this was done at a public demo of Okinawian masters and the old footage was done for his students.

Originally posted by Gene Williams
Our's does, too:p We end right foot back after turn, step with right then kick left, then right...so there:nw: But it isn't nidan geri, just mae tobi geri. Kururunfa is a great kata. On the throw after juji uke, do you bend at the waist or drop to a squat? Kuniba used to do one thing sometime and another later. I drop to a squat because that feels right and it is what I have seen most.
Our Kururunfa is done dropping down back straight. Similar to Sonkyo posture from Kendo.

Rob Alvelais
5th January 2004, 19:59
So, is this our refuge from the "Kata is stupid and worthless" threads?

Rob

Gene Williams
5th January 2004, 20:59
Rob, I don't know. They may chase us over here, but since this is a Ryukyu thread maybe the mods will run them back to the gendai karate thread:karatekid

Gene Williams
5th January 2004, 21:07
Ed, I think less rigidity comes with time in the arts under senior, traditionalist teachers. Kuniba, Higioshi, and Ruiz always said that at senior levels you move more naturally and more in keeping with your spirit during the kata and with your understanding of the moves. Re: sinking, etc. We do have sinking and rising in our kata. The "spitting" is mainly from Naha stuff and it isn't emphasized as much. Swallowing is done against choking techniques, I was told. It is not stressed much in our ryu. I do the Naha kata with tension and more pronounced breathing because most of our stuff is Shuri and I feel I need the balance. Our breathing and tension are not as forceful as Goju, generally. Higioshi said that kind of breathing is bad for your throat and heart.

CEB
5th January 2004, 21:37
Swallowing I was taught is much more of a general principle. Has to do with movement, rooting, ki , physical power generation etc... not just the physical act of swallowing. The technique you mention is very very good and will buy you sometime in a choking situation. You swallow and press the tongue hard to the roof of the mouth. There have been some guys who claimed they could not be choked because of the technique but they were a little over optimistic I fear.

You may be right about the health issues. Some really good Okinawian Goju men have died young (50s and 60s). Especially considering the Okinawian reputation fro longevity. At least before we went over there and started feeding them cheeseburgers. The high profile Japanese Goju men have seemed to fair much better. May be the Sanchin.

Gene Williams
5th January 2004, 21:42
Hi Ed, We discuss the swallowing/floating, etc. in terms of in/yo, I think. We talk a lot about gripping the floor with your toes and feet or turning over eggs in sand. We also talk about imaginary lines from the itten to the anus and the top of the head to the anus through the itten. Kinky:D

Old Dragon
6th January 2004, 00:47
He Gene: ....

Well just so you know the truth about Mixed Martial arts and how they are so superior to those mickey mouse okinawa styles... oops.. sorry guys... wrong post. hahahhah

Just joking, Gene invited me here .


In regards to spitting and swallowing. I was taught it was part of what we call the 5 principles. Push, Pull, Rise and Fall and Hara or Center. Push being the equivalent to spit and Pull to swallow. Many of these principles are dicussed in the Bubishi, and the Kempo Go Qui, In the go qui there is a dojo kun that has been adopted by isshin ryu. One of the statements is "The act of spitting is neither hard nor soft" It refers to pushing being a soft or hard technique depending on the intent and mechanics.

Examples of Push and Pull are punching and the draw hand relationship. I have studied with Advincula Sensei and Tamayose Sensi in relation to these concepts and discovered this.

1. Its like ying and yang, you cant have push without pull, and similarialy rise without fall. Its like there is no day without night. They have to occur together as a team.

2. In Most cases that I have found, and I am looking for somewhere it doesnt happen, You will normally find Rise with Push and Fall with Pull. You can have in somesituations Rise and pull and Fall and push but I am still working on the mechanics of that, I think I need another 20 years.

These are body mechanics combined with transition from stance to stance, Now add Hara or the center and you have someone shifting in his stance to avoid an attack rather than stepping, which is theoreticlly slower.

Now add the 8 directions of the Compass (or as some may know it the 8 directions of the wind) the directions are gates, gates through which you may enter or exit, or through which you may lead your opponent.

Someone said earlier in this thread that Goju was for working in close and basiclly tying up the opponent (my paraphrasing, hope I got the intention right) In order to effectivly do this I think you will find that shifting in stance will become necessary as opposed to stepping in and out. I have worked with several Goju People and find that they sometimes refer to it in different dialects or names but the philosophy is the same.

A little test of this is to face your opponent in a forward stance and then by simply shifting the rear foot shift into a horse stance. You will find that an incoming punch to the body will now glance off the body. At this point simply shift the foot back to the forward position and it rotates the hip to fire a reverse punch. I know its simple, and we didnt even talk about assisting the evasion with a block which you should, It is my hope you can do this and then you will understand where I am going hahahahhahaha

8 directions or gates, 5 basic principles and you have what is reffered to by some as the 13 hands. I know there are more interpretations of this but in many circles it is basic sabaki training and strategy. It allows a fighter to move inside and yet keep moving to avoid and to generate power.

Nihanchi is a great one for shifting also, I was taught that by adapting a proper forward stance that is positioned in such a way to cause balance and one that is relative to the other stances. By relative I mean that from this forward stance you can shift into any of the other stances. By shifting weight and direction you can access all of the other stances. (Somehow writing this down doesnt seem to explain it right but I'm trying)

An example of this would be in receiving an attacking punch to the body again one could simply !!!! 90* so you would be facing off to the side in a cat stance, originally coming from the forward stance again. Understand also that pivoting back into center would then allow for the counter to have lots of power.

I have been working with this for a few years now and find that to get in side is great, working inside seems to require a slightly different training than the sport fighting which seems to happen from 12 feet away. My expereince is also that real life happens nose to nose, the distance is close quickly and not given back.

A couple of other comments about this thread.

Gene: I do not no suparempai but I have gone through the experience of teaching a kata for the first time, weird eh? hahahhahahaha I hate it when they keep you on your toes.. but I guess that is what students are for. I know know about you but the first time I taught Shi shi no kun, a senior bo kata, I was nervous as all get out, because it was the first opportunity in 15 years for me to teach it. It is a dan kata and I had not up until then had a student "stick it out to that point"

Mike O'leary,
Thanks for inviting me.

Gene Williams
6th January 2004, 03:38
Most of these concepts are incorporated in the kata and the student will "discover" them if the kata is taught and performed correctly. It is better to do the kata and then the applications with a partner and learn to feel what you are doing. The Okinawans and Japanese do not spend as much time as Westerners discussing concepts. It is easier to act your way into a new way of thinking than it is to think your way into a new way of acting.

Old Dragon
6th January 2004, 06:52
Yes Gene I agree:

We seem to chatter about it constantly and the Okinawan's seem to just do it. I trained under Tamoyse for Kobudo, and for days on end all we would do was basics. Over and Over and over....... many students began finding reasons to "not be there in the morning" (morning was basics, afternoon would be kata) My legs ached so bad after a week of this..hahahhaha But Sensei did not speak much english and he would smile and make you freeze position. Then he would walk around with a room full of students in a deep horse stance, holding that position while he walked around and made small adjustments to the position of the bo, or the stance or the posture. Then we would go on to the next move.

It was great. But you are right, he did not talk about it much even through the interpreturs. He speaks a little english now and still he is quiet and absolutly a perfectionist as to your form and position. A great Sensei.


I agree also about it all being in the kata. As I said in another post. I have been working Seisan since 1981 and still I find things in it when I am working on it intently.

As to the statement about about acting your way into a new way of thinking............................ I think that is remeniscent of Practice, Practice, Practice, and when your all done that practice some more. (Sensei AJ Advincula) hahahhaha He would love your comment.


Mike O'Leary

CEB
6th January 2004, 15:23
Originally posted by Gene Williams
Most of these concepts are incorporated in the kata and the student will "discover" them if the kata is taught and performed correctly. It is better to do the kata and then the applications with a partner and learn to feel what you are doing. The Okinawans and Japanese do not spend as much time as Westerners discussing concepts. It is easier to act your way into a new way of thinking than it is to think your way into a new way of acting.

Thanks Williams Sensei,

This gives me hope still. I started a conversation on a closed list of various Goju Ryu Yudansha on this subject. It aggrevates the hell out of me that I am not able to adequately find straight forward language to describe our most basic principles of our karate. I think I have an adequate feel for these principles but you would think after 20+ years of Goju lessons I could put the principles in words. We have a brown belt who is 6'6" 315 pounds and a local bouncer. You do kakie kumite with him you get a pretty good feel for the principles soon enough I believe. But I don't think I can do a good job of TELLING someone what the principles are. Nice post.

Also very nice post O'Leary Sensei for coming closer to putting into word what I feel is true.

hectokan
6th January 2004, 16:00
So, is this our refuge from the "Kata is stupid and worthless" threads?

Rob,I would not call it a refuge,more like a place to question sensei original teaching without seeming dissrespectful.There is no reason to find refuge here Just remember.. do suparimpei like sensei say's.why the need to talk or question a thing?Why even collaborate among yourselves?Talking about the subtle differences & exchanging ideas can be viewed as anti-karate and bigtime dissrespectful to your own ryu & senseis.


Shame on all of you. :kiss:

sepai 85
6th January 2004, 19:34
good afternoon everyone

I am a mere shodan with very minimal knowledge but I have seen suparempie , leared shisochin sanseru sepai seisan and tensho. I have a few questions more for the sake of getting other peoples views I can get corrections from my sensei but I wish to see where other people stand on kata.

it is my belief that even if a kata's movements are basic then they can still have some advanced/vicius bunkai take geki sai dai itchi for example there is a few take downs pressure points throws and breaks and it is a basic kata, IMHO there is nothing wrong with basics you need to built from them.

in sanseru is there audible breaths taught in your ryu , because as far as I know the jundokan does not do sanseru with an audable breath if clarification is needed I am refering to after the third punch with your left hand your left hand pulls back and your right hand extends I have seen certian people do this certian ways but as far as i know the jundokan does not do an audable breath how is it done in your ryu ?

good day everyone
your in shugyo

Rob Alvelais
6th January 2004, 19:35
Originally posted by hectokan


Shame on all of you. :kiss:

You've not seen my kata, evidently. I have no shame. ;)


Rob

Gene Williams
7th January 2004, 01:49
Originally posted by hectokan
Rob,I would not call it a refuge,more like a place to question sensei original teaching without seeming dissrespectful.There is no reason to find refuge here Just remember.. do suparimpei like sensei say's.why the need to talk or question a thing?Why even collaborate among yourselves?Talking about the subtle differences & exchanging ideas can be viewed as anti-karate and bigtime dissrespectful to your own ryu & senseis.


Shame on all of you. :kiss:

Hector, Shame on you. You just can't stand it and have to run over here just to take a jab. Now run on back to gendai thread so you can put right crosses and wrestling techniques in Suparimpei and re-name it Gracie One or something:p

Old Dragon
7th January 2004, 02:04
Gene: I thought it was UFC #1?????????

Quote:
Now run on back to gendai thread so you can put right crosses and wrestling techniques in Suparimpei and re-name it Gracie One or something



Now If Suparimpei is Gracie ONE... then what the heck is UFC #1??? sheesh.............. and here I was about to announce to the world my new style.

Man..... One minute I'm a master and the next I can't reach level 2 of "Karate masters rule the world" version 2. on my play station.

Has anyone got a set of rubber chucks I can play with?

Mike O'Leary

Gene Williams
7th January 2004, 02:06
Hector, It is encouraging and validating to know that we are doing the same kata that others before us have done for hundreds of years, in some cases. We ask the same questions they did, struggle with the same moves, and gradually discover the same things. It has been a long time since many of us did the kata because "sensei says" or just like he did. We grow into the kata our own way. BUT, it is the same kata. Although no two people will do it with the same spirit, or see exactly the same things in it, it is the same kata. It is far more of a challenge to practice the same kata everyone else does and embody it more fully and completely than it is to make up our own. It is nice to have a body of kata that will always challenge us and always present new discoveries and techniques. There is also a certain peace and satisfaction that comes with that. You should try it sometime:cool:

Old Dragon
7th January 2004, 02:59
If I may be so bold to add one more thing to that last post.

If somone did not do the kata "just like Sensei" then eventually all the technique would be lost.

Mike O'Leary

Goju Man
7th January 2004, 04:42
Ok guys, no mma talk. But what about all the people mentioned over there that changed, added or removed things to karate? Why is it we're frouned upon for questioning things and they were praised for it? Gene, your shito ryu would not exist. All of us goju practitioners would be doing a much different sanchin kata, uechi ryu would have three kata, kyokushin wouldn't exsist, basically all the "chinesey" stuff you didn't like about Lee is what you would be doing. Nevermind having a discussion about the nuances of suparunpei. I wonder if you practise the mikasuki geri? It's in the kata. Jumping front kick? It's in there.

I have a tape of Tsuogo Sukamoto doing suparunpei that is pretty good.

Rob Alvelais
7th January 2004, 05:23
Well, it looks lik this thread is hijacked.

Manny,

You've not heard of the concept of Shu Ha Ri? It's not changing things that's the problem. It's changing stuff before you've learned the thing that you're attempting to change. Change is normal and natural. But, when you change a traditional system, it's no longer a traditional system. One shouldn't call it that. If I introduce jump kicks into Sanchin, I couldn't call it Goju any more, could I? (Well, I could, but I probably shouldn't.) I don't find Bruce's revelations particularly bright or earthshattering. From a traditional stand point, I look at it and say, Yeah, so? "Absorb what's useful." Yeah, you mean, like a roundhouse kick or uramawashi geri? You mean, like when Mabuni sent Iwata to learn from Ninjutsu Seiko Fujita? Or when Mabuni went to seek out Uechi for training? Or as in that famous Ryukyu Tode Jutsu Research group that brought in Gokenki to teach White Crane? "Discard what's useless." Yeah, just don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Perhaps you should thouroghly learn that thing you're thinking about throwing out, before you make a determination of its worth? You see, I see these things as being part of traditional karate, however, if I change what I'm doing, karate wise, I"m not doing traditional karate any more. I can't be. After all I will have just created it, so it can't be "traditional". I should call it something new. Maybe Rob-Hahaha Shito Ryu, maybe Baka Ryu. But not Traditional Shito Ryu. I also thouroghly regect that Traditional Karate Tm = JKA Shotokan. There are other traditional styles, aside from JKA. And, if the JKA frowns on those practices, I don't see why I or Gene or Ed should care, since we're Shito and goju stylists, respectively.

Rob



Originally posted by Goju Man
Ok guys, no mma talk. But what about all the people mentioned over there that changed, added or removed things to karate? Why is it we're frouned upon for questioning things and they were praised for it? Gene, your shito ryu would not exist. All of us goju practitioners would be doing a much different sanchin kata, uechi ryu would have three kata, kyokushin wouldn't exsist, basically all the "chinesey" stuff you didn't like about Lee is what you would be doing. Nevermind having a discussion about the nuances of suparunpei. I wonder if you practise the mikasuki geri? It's in the kata. Jumping front kick? It's in there.

I have a tape of Tsuogo Sukamoto doing suparunpei that is pretty good.

Old Dragon
7th January 2004, 06:15
Ok.. so were back to it but I must admit that I am a little surprised to see it here.

I study Isshin Ryu, I learn the way Shimabuku did it to the best of my ability. My Sensei tells me.. "This is what Sensei did" then we play a little and he says.. "this is what I do"


He is quite adamant that we teach students what Shimabuku Sensei did because that is Isshin Ryu. We learn the history specific to Isshin Ryu and its roots. We learn how Shimabuku sensei came to his conclusions after studying Kobudo, Shorin Ryu, and Goju Ryu. We learn that our Sanchin comes from Miyagi Sensei, that our kobudo comes from Shinken Taira, and we learn the root and reason behind the rest of our kata.

I have been told "Study with whom you will, learn from whom ever you can get to teach you, don't be narrow minded and listen for the lesson because sometimes you will miss it".

I teach bunkai for the kata at several levels. Our basic bunkai is what Shimabuku taught, we also experiment and play and explore other ideas and options. We will always be aware of what is Isshin Ryu and what is ours, we will never mix those up. We follow the lessons and influence of a master that we have respect for and whose process of exploration and discovery we admire.

If you were to study a traditional martial art you would find that there is much more to it than learning how to fight. (I've said this several times in the last few weeks) If you have never studied traditional Karate this will not make sense, but that is why others feel the need to convince us that we are closed minded and narrow. Of course they probably dont have the discipline to study one field of thought for more than a few years. They want the quick and easy answers, a kick from the UFC, a punch from a MMA, anything that looks flashy and easy to learn.

Kata is a waste of time I keep hearing............... Following your sensei is an inferior method of training.


Find any successfull people in this world, you will find somone who first mastered their craft, by following the direction of a master. Then they developed thier own creativity........ (Now that is why it is an art) At no time did they abandon their master or his craft, they simply took it with them with respect for what has gone before and a respect for those efforts of the teachers of before.


Mike O'Leary....

PS: round kick to slow....... front kick'em in the knee and watch him fall. No knee..........No fight.


of course you cant do that in sport.......then again I never arrested anyone in the ring. Only in real life.

Goju Man
7th January 2004, 12:44
Thanks for the replies. There are some very good thoughts. First off, I would like to say that I haven't abandoned Goju altogether. I love it, probably because it was my first martial art. I do realise that there are many reasons why people train in it. I don't do it for just the sake of combat, although I have found usefulness in some things. But why would you not call something you changed traditional? I find that a strange comment when there are so many "changed" versions of Goju, for example that are all labeled "traditional". If you were to hold that true, Goju itself would not be traditional. It was altered, several times. The only art close to it's original version would be Uechi Ryu, without the kata Kanei added.
Secondly, why do we refer to MMA as a "style"? It is a combination of different disciplines of combat, including karate. Many people in MMA have extensive karate backgrounds. But how long do you have to train in something before you've learned enough of it? 10? 15? 20? 30 years? Many of us have had that much and all in between. Why did Joe Lewis discard the practise of kata? Why did Bill Wallace discard it's use? I'm not saying it has no value whatsoever, but it's not the end all, especially if your purpose is combat effeciency. That being said, I still like kata, but for a different reason.;)

CEB
7th January 2004, 13:44
Originally posted by Goju Man
...Why did Bill Wallace discard it's use?

He never used it. So he couldn't discard it. He told me himself over dinner at Gabatoni's after one of the several visits he has made to our dojo over the last 20 years. He learned the kata he needed so he could be awarded a black belt then he ditched the kata patterns he has memorized. Lets keep this pissing contest crap in the gendai karate free for all forum. No one goes into the Koryu sword forum and says your stuff is outdated and stupid because of the advent of guns. We were discussing the 4 cornerstone principles of Naha Te. Don't anyone even reply to this unless it concerns Ryukyu principles or Pechurin kata. Please.

Rob Alvelais
7th January 2004, 16:13
Originally posted by Goju Man
But why would you not call something you changed traditional?
Manny,
I use the term Traditional to indicate that the style was extant prior to WWII, as does my instructor. If I create something new, like a brand new kata, how can that thing be traditional? The process is traditional and time honored, but that thing is not. That's all. Worth, is another thing that I haven't addressed at all. I don't use "Traditional" to denote any sort of value.


I find that a strange comment when there are so many "changed" versions of Goju, for example that are all labeled "traditional".
Not Nisei Goju. Not Chinese Goju. Not USA Goju. Those are American Eclectic systems. They came into being after WWII. Again, you'll note that I made no comment whatsoever as to whether they're good or bad. Just that they're not "traditional" in the sense that I use, and have always used the term, when it comes to MA.


If you were to hold that true, Goju itself would not be traditional. It was altered, several times. The only art close to it's original version would be Uechi Ryu, without the kata Kanei added.
The various sects of Goju (aside from those mentioned above) were extant prior to WWII. They're traditional. They also try to pass on the teaching of Miyagi as they understood it.


Secondly, why do we refer to MMA as a "style"? It is a combination of different disciplines of combat, including karate. Many people in MMA have extensive karate backgrounds.
"Who's 'we', white boy? ;) :D I think that most of us use the term not to denote a specific style, but a collection of different styles and arts and mixes thereof. Much like one says Karate, or Kung fu. Not to denote a specific style.


But how long do you have to train in something before you've learned enough of it? 10? 15? 20? 30 years? Many of us have had that much and all in between.
Depends. Depends on your acumen and talent, dilligence, and what your purpose is. If your goal is to become a kumite champion, then I'd think that you could discard kata right away. But, Manny, I've written on that before. Gene, Ed and I are in agreement,IIRC. Why do you keep wanting to pummel that dead horse? You keep bringing it up. Are you looking for "Permission" somehow? What's up?



Why did Joe Lewis discard the practise of kata? Why did Bill Wallace discard it's use? I'm not saying it has no value whatsoever, but it's not the end all, especially if your purpose is combat effeciency. That being said, I still like kata, but for a different reason.;) Their goals were different from most karate people. They entered the tournament scene early on, and looking back, it appears that they decided that they wanted to focus on fighting for one ring or another. So, quite sensibly, they devoted their time to those activities, and didn't spend precious training time on activities that wouldn't directly affect their goals. It's the old addage, if you want to become a world class swimmer, swim. Don't ride a bike. Again, this is something I've written about. Why resurrect it?

Rob

Doug Daulton
7th January 2004, 18:17
Ok folks. I have now recieved two reports on this thread. I've read the thread over and do not agree that it has "has no place" in this forum. That said, I do see significant topic drift and some bleed over from topics best left in the Gendai Budo/Karate forum instead.

So, consider this a group warning. Bring this thread back to a discussion of Ryukyaun Unarmed Martial Arts (i.e. "How does Supraenpei compare to Kusanku"? might be nice). Else, I will close this thread.

Regards,

Doug Daulton
Moderator

Rob Alvelais
7th January 2004, 18:46
Good call, Doug.

Rob

Richard Horrowi
7th January 2004, 21:06
I guess Meibukan and Shoreikan Goju Ryu are as well not traditional Arts because they were created after WW2, including Matsubayashi, Seibukan and a few others, however those practitioners will tell you they practice Traditional Karate.

Touguchi added Gekisai Dai San- Nagamine- Fukyugata Ichi- Zenryo Shimabukuro added Wanchin?????


So.....

RH

Rob Alvelais
7th January 2004, 21:12
Originally posted by Richard Horrowi
I guess Meibukan and Shoreikan Goju Ryu are as well not traditional Arts because they were created after WW2, including Matsubayashi, Seibukan and a few others, however those practitioners will tell you they practice Traditional Karate.

Touguchi added Gekisai Dai San- Nagamine- Fukyugata Ichi- Zenryo Shimabukuro added Wanchin?????


So.....

RH


Wow, you're right, Richard. 1947. Nagamine just missed the cut off. I move we give him a pass! Any seconds? ;-)

Rob

Richard Horrowi
7th January 2004, 22:43
Others creating New Kata or systems are they Traditional? All these were developed after WW2 and some of their lineages are very questionable. Again some not all.

Hidy Ochai Washin Ryu
Mas Oyama Kyokushin Plus Variuos Offshoots
Tak Kubota Gosoku Ryu
Eizo Onishi Koei Kan
Ryu Kyu Kenpo Seiyu Oyata
Tatsuo Shimabukuro Isshin Ryu
Mamarou Yamamoto Yoshukai

I believe maybe some find a problem if a caucasian who has 20 yrs or more in Martial Arts be it one system or two, decides to create his own system gets abum deal from all the hippocrites.

Benny Urquidez Urquidokan no one can say this man isn't qualified to start his own system, or it is lacking.

Joe Lewis is his relative short Karate stint he's been there and can do whatever he wants.

Chuck Norris UFAF he's another that comes to mind.

You guys can say whatever but most of what the SFA writes is true.

Later,

RH

Goju Man
8th January 2004, 04:03
Very interesting answers. Richard, I am impressed with your knoledge. I will continue this in the other forum, but I think you made my point better than I. Thanks. The masters always believed that karate had room for improvement. It is only us weterners that believe we are not the wiser. I bet thay are laughing up there. I'll be happy to continue this in the karate forum. Sorry Doug.

CEB
9th January 2004, 20:44
Originally posted by CEB
...The part where the wrists pull in and the palms push out. The stance softens here and dan tien sinks down....

This is wrong. The use of the term soften is wrong. I could say well what I meant was the stance compresses and be fooling myself into feeling better about the whole situation but after 2 nights of paying more awareness to what I was doing I must say the word 'soften' was no accident :(. When I was sinking I was giving up the outward pressure on the knees too much. From here I can still rise and spring if necessary but the knees seem dangerously weak to me. I feel like I'm OK in Kakie though. The hands-on aspects of Kakie and Yaksoku Kumite helps me, I think. This weakening in the knees seems mostly to be an occurence
in solo forms Seisan and Suparunpei.

You know its a bitch when you lose your sensei before its time and you only see him once or twice a year. 20 years of Goju Ryu lessons and I still have questions. Slow learner I guess. Time to be planning a road trip soon. Have a good weekend.

Gene Williams
9th January 2004, 21:39
Originally posted by Richard Horrowi
Others creating New Kata or systems are they Traditional? All these were developed after WW2 and some of their lineages are very questionable. Again some not all.

Hidy Ochai Washin Ryu
Mas Oyama Kyokushin Plus Variuos Offshoots
Tak Kubota Gosoku Ryu
Eizo Onishi Koei Kan
Ryu Kyu Kenpo Seiyu Oyata
Tatsuo Shimabukuro Isshin Ryu
Mamarou Yamamoto Yoshukai

I believe maybe some find a problem if a caucasian who has 20 yrs or more in Martial Arts be it one system or two, decides to create his own system gets abum deal from all the hippocrites.

Benny Urquidez Urquidokan no one can say this man isn't qualified to start his own system, or it is lacking.

Joe Lewis is his relative short Karate stint he's been there and can do whatever he wants.

Chuck Norris UFAF he's another that comes to mind.

You guys can say whatever but most of what the SFA writes is true.

Later,

RH

There is a big difference between the people you list and Joe Lewis, Chuck Noris, and Benny Urquidez. Give me a break. None of these three could by any stretch be called a traditional martial artist. Most of the "new" styles you named developed out of older orthodox styles, even retaining the old kata. Give me a break and take this crap back to the gendai thread. Start your own ryu...see how long you are remembered.

CEB
21st July 2004, 00:33
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