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Victor
6th January 2004, 02:37
Here's a question that just came to me?

Where did the side kick come from in Okinawan Karate?

Looking at the kata was it the Hiagonna/Miyagi connection, which incorporated the Side kick into their kata?

To my view, the earlier kata didn't seem to use it. Such as the Matsumura Passai not having the side kick later versions of Passai seem to have adopted?

Any thoughts?

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

Gene Williams
6th January 2004, 03:47
I don't know. Seisan has it, and it is pretty old. Sanseru has it, Kururunfa has it. They are pretty old. I would guess that it came from China, like so much else. We only use it to knees and legs, which seems the intended use. I have heard TKD guys say it was used in the old days to kick people off of horses, but TKD guys usually don't know what they are talking about:D Plus, if that is the best you have against a mounted warrior you are in for a long (or short) afternoon. I wonder if it didn't start out as a stamping kick with the heel and evolve from there.

sepai 85
6th January 2004, 03:50
I apologize for my ignorance but I always thought those were konsetsu geri, and not yoko geri sorry for any mistake ?

CEB
6th January 2004, 04:13
Originally posted by sepai 85
I apologize for my ignorance but I always thought those were konsetsu geri, and not yoko geri sorry for any mistake ?


The next to last kick in Seisan is often a sidekick done to the rear (6 O'clock). Often referred to as sakuto geri. Sometimes it is kensetsu geri also. When in Rome....

I like to use english when discussing these kicks because in many goju schools Yoko Geri is round kick not side kick. Reason is because the target is the side of the body. Chudan uke is often reffered to as Yoko uke because it blocks out to the side.

As far as the other kicks I can't speak for Shito Ryu. Side kick and kensetsu geri do have some similar mechanics I guess. Maybe Kensetsu Geri is side kick thrown to the correct target area the others are just being polite :)

Rob Alvelais
6th January 2004, 07:20
Ed,

That kick in Seisan, for Shito Ryu is just like in Goju (as you indicate). For our particular group, it's a regular side kick. But, for shito kai say, and for seito, it's a kansetsu geri.

Rob

Gene Williams
6th January 2004, 11:29
There are 4 side kicks in our Seisan, all are joint kicks done with a strong thrusting motion aiming for the knee or lower leg of the opponent.

sepai 85
6th January 2004, 13:04
thank you
I appreciate you clearing that up.

CEB
6th January 2004, 15:06
Originally posted by Gene Williams
..... I wonder if it didn't start out as a stamping kick with the heel and evolve from there.

This is a very insightful observation, with age comes wisdom!

There are two versions of Sanseiru ( 3 counting Uechi Ryu) that I know of. One is credited to Higaoshionna Kanryo and the other to Higaoshioanna Kanyu I'm told. They were different people some think they were the same man I think they were wrong. One version you see in Shodokan Goju Ryu, To'on Ryu and Ryuei Ryu. The other version you find in all other Goju Ryu. In one you can find the low stamping kick. You shifts the hips as you rotate the heel in you opponents guts following putting the guy down. Very brutal technique.

CEB
6th January 2004, 16:15
FWIW

Off the top of my head, of the Older forms from the Shorin Ryu system I am familiar with only Rohai (Rohai Chu) has a side kick type technique.

Nyuck3X
6th January 2004, 17:47
Shorin-ryu (Chibana-ha) has stomping sidekick
in our Itosu and Matsamura Passai(Sho/Dai).
It's done with a pulling motion. One possibility
is an arm lock followed by a sidekick to the back of the knee.

I believe it's done in Matsubayashi's Tomari Passai too.

Besides the change in names, the frontkick in Heian Nidan
was changed by Funakoshi to sidekick.

CEB
6th January 2004, 18:33
Originally posted by Nyuck3X
Shorin-ryu (Chibana-ha) has stomping sidekick
in our Itosu and Matsamura Passai(Sho/Dai).
It's done with a pulling motion. One possibility
is an arm lock followed by a sidekick to the back of the knee.

....

In Matsumura Seito there are cresent kicks in Paisai Sho and Dai. is this where other schools stomp. I can really see the cresent kick terminate with a stomp to the back of the knee.

Disclaimer: I'm a Goju Guy.

Rob Alvelais
6th January 2004, 19:32
Originally posted by CEB
This is a very insightful observation, with age comes wisdom!

There are two versions of Sanseiru ( 3 counting Uechi Ryu) that I know of. One is credited to Higaoshionna Kanryo and the other to Higaoshioanna Kanyu I'm told. They were different people some think they were the same man I think they were wrong. One version you see in Shodokan Goju Ryu, To'on Ryu and Ryuei Ryu. The other version you find in all other Goju Ryu. In one you can find the low stamping kick. You shifts the hips as you rotate the heel in you opponents guts following putting the guy down. Very brutal technique.

Our sanseiryu has kansetsu geri (ala seisan) before most of the turns (ala seisan).

Rob

Gene Williams
7th January 2004, 01:56
Originally posted by CEB
In Matsumura Seito there are cresent kicks in Paisai Sho and Dai. is this where other schools stomp. I can really see the cresent kick terminate with a stomp to the back of the knee.

Disclaimer: I'm a Goju Guy.

We do crescent kicks in Bassai Dai and Sho and do bunkai as a high load for a stomping kick to the top of the knee or back of the knee or foot. The side kick at the beginning of the kata is done also with a pulling motion.