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View Full Version : Why Kata are different from one style to another.



Old Dragon
7th January 2004, 18:50
I would like to throw out something for dicussion. I am looking for different ideas and theory's on this.

In the Okinawan styles, many of us have the same kata. IE, Nihanchi, Nifanchi, Tekki shodan, nidan, sandan.

Nihanchi in some styles starts from the left and in some styles starts from the right.

Kusanku, Konkudai, are all from the original same root, (I beleive ) and yet from style to style there can be anything from major to minor differences.

Anybody have any history on why this happened?

I mistakenly posted this to the kobudo section and it would not allow me to delete and start over, but in fact the same principle applies to koubdo as well. I know several versions of Chatan yara no sai, they are basiclly the same but at the same time can have some very distinct differences.

Mike O'Leary.

Rob Alvelais
7th January 2004, 20:45
I remember reading somewhere that the instr's of old tended tended to teach semiprivately. The implications of that, is that there wasn't the need to standardize teaching methods and one could customize and adapt the training to the individual student. Consequently if you learned something it may have been tailored to you and your physical attributes. And, if I learned the same thing, it might be different because we have different physical attributes.

Add to that, differences that occur because of the maturation of our sensei, and the time frames in which we learned. So, if you learned something from your instructor at one point in his development. And, later on, I learned that same thing, it may be different because sensei may have changed things a bit in the intervening time.

I see that in Shito Ryu. Tani Ha kata is a bit different than Shito Kai, which is a bit different from Itosu Kai, which is different from what Kenzo Mabuni teaches. All learned from Kenwa Mabuni, but at different times.

Rob

Matt Wolfson
7th January 2004, 21:08
I agree with the reasons stated earlier. the only thing I would add would be to consider the example of having a bunch of people sitting around in a circle one person whispers in the person next them's ear and then they inturn whisper it to the next person etc etc till it comes full circle. out of the countless times I have seen this done I have not seen the same message make it all the way around. people hear what they wnat to hear. interpert that and then pass on there interpretation. I think the same holds through for kata. With that many people in the linage there is bound to be variations....
-Littlepond

Sochin
7th January 2004, 23:01
O"Sensei Richard Kim would teach us variations of the same kata - a Chinese version, an Okinawan version , a Japanese (usaually called Shotokan) version and (the correct one! :) ) a Shorin-ji version.

Our Shorin-ji clubs would learn these at the same seminars as a number of Goju clubs. Inevitably, by the end of the seminar, all the Shorin-ji kata were Goju-ized with shorter steps, tension in some places, strange :) ways of footwork in turning, etc.

Sometimes I've seen bigger differences inside one club than across different ryu...

Old Dragon
8th January 2004, 06:22
I have to admit that I never thought through the concept of teaching only a student or two at a time. Of course as the sensei developed he would have subtle differences, even if it was credited to an ailment that prevented a certain stance over the years. Of couse the student that trained 20 years later would have something different.

Another concept that was run by me recently was \\\\


" So you got all these guys training in Karate, karate to them was like jogging to north america, everybody did it and everybody did it different"

"So along comes this war, and they of course get to busy to train, years later two guys are sittin in a pub talkin about Nihanchi, and he says... well you know when you step to the left...... and the other guy goes WHAT???????? you step right.............. Now you got to understand that these two guys just got contracts to teach the marines on okinawa and the american government is paying a few bucks a month to teach each marine...................... and in fact these two guys are old buddies......... and when someone says "how come there is a difference" They backed each other up and stammered and stuttered and said.............. Oh we are different styles.....


I know.... its a bit tongue in cheek the way I told it, but you know sometimes the most human story just may be what happened..hahahha

Have you ever had a student go to an open tournament and flub the kata but fake it... and fake it so well the judges (who were not of the same style) were not sure if the kata was done properly or not but darn....... wasnt it done with snap..hahahhahah the secret was in not letting the judge know you screwed up.

It is food for thought.


Mike O'Leary

hobbitbob
10th January 2004, 03:14
Even in the same system, there can be great variations. I have seen major variations in Bassai Dai in terms of speed, timing, and emphasis in Denver, Karlsruhe, Seattle, and Baltimore.

Old Dragon
10th January 2004, 11:23
Yes I have seen variations of the same kata in Isshin Ryu also. I find that they can usually be attributed to differences in Bunkai. sometimes they are as was mentioned earlier about sitting in the circle and how it changes as it goes around.

I have wondered also as to body style and if that would affect things. Long and lean vs short and stocky can have a dramatic affect on how a person is able to perform a technique. So once again take to body styles taught in the same dojo, Isolate them for 20 years and I am sure you will come up with some variations.


Mike O'Leary

tallpaul50
12th January 2004, 20:47
Everybody's making good, valid points and I have often asked myself that question also.

How about this angle...because a senior ((or not so senior) student breaks away from his sensei and starts his own system, and because of this, makes changes to the kata that HE feels are more to his liking and way of thinking.

Nyuck3X
13th January 2004, 01:21
Originally posted by Hobbit Bob


I have seen major variations in Bassai Dai in terms of speed, timing, and emphasis in Denver, Karlsruhe, Seattle, and Baltimore.

Ah, Passai (Bassai, Patsai). My favorite when comparing.
Passai Sho (Itosu Passai) and Dai (Matsamura Passai) are basically
the same kata but the first utilizes chudan uke and the latter
jodan uke. I see it this way, the chudan uke is good for a man
of broad shoulders and the jodan uke for those a little shorter.
Though I don't know how tall Matsamura was, it was said that Itosu
was a broad shouldered man so when he taught Chibana, he taught
him his version. When Chibana found that Matsamura performed it
differently, he adopted both into his syllabus. Maybe for those who
might find some use for it.

That's my spin on it.
Then there's Tomari Passai...:D

Old Dragon
13th January 2004, 19:42
Everybody's making good, valid points and I have often asked myself that question also.
How about this angle...because a senior ((or not so senior) student breaks away from his sensei and starts his own system, and because of this, makes changes to the kata that HE feels are more to his liking and way of thinking.



This has definatly happened. I had a dicussion With Fumio Demura regarding Shushi No Kun, and he told me he had made changes to the kate from what Shinken Taira had taught him. Most of the changes were minor and centered around what he refered to as teachable situations.


Paul....... a note... please sign your name at the end of the post. Group rules......... thanks.......


Mike O'leary

tallpaul50
24th January 2004, 02:58
Paul....... a note... please sign your name at the end of the post. Group rules......... thanks.......


Mike O'leary [/B]

Sorry Mike..I'm used to other forums I guess where everybody is anonimous (sp?) I guess! lol

Blackwood
24th January 2004, 03:43
Funakoshi renamed many of the katas when he taught them in Japan.

I have seen changes to katas in the few years I have been practicing. When Sensei goes to Okinawa there is usually some small change that comes out of it. But we are amazingly consistant across the country, another advantage of a central testing location for black belt.

Old Dragon
24th January 2004, 08:19
Indrid, Isshin Ryu starts by moving left. Also they stand upright with the toes slightly turned in.

This stance is actually the same as the okinawan horse stance that has toes turned out only from that position turn the toes in. The horse stance is not quite as deep as in many styles and the feet therefore are slightly closer together. Isshin Ryu is noted for its upright stances.

The moves are exactly the same as Other okinawa styles. It is interesting that somehow this was reversed over time, which came first was probably the move to the right, but in fact, because nihanchi is mirror image in both directions nothing is lost. The nihanchi Isshin ryu performs is the same as Tekki Shodan or nihanchi shodan in some styles.

Kevin73
24th January 2004, 19:00
I also believe that the version of Naihanchi that Choki Motobu taught went to the left first as well (trying to remember the video I've seen of Motobu's son performing the kata).

Nyuck3X
24th January 2004, 19:03
Kobayashi/Shorin-ryu uses the pigeon toe stance too. We call
it Niahanchi dachi. Very similar to Goju's Sanchin dachi only
not as severe. I know some schools teach it with Kiba dachi
(toes pointing straight) and I was told it was because you can
generate more punching torque this way. The problem I found
is that it creates an opening for a groin strike. You also have
to consider people's physiology. Some have greater hip rotation
(meaning they can not rotate their hip sockets in or out as much)
than others, making it more difficult to maintain this stance.

Peace.

Old Dragon
25th January 2004, 09:37
Tatsuo Shimabuku, the founder of isshin ryu studied with Choki Motubu, now i never knew that his nihanchi went to the left. That is a very interesting piece of the puzzle... thank you.

As to using the pigeon toes stance.......... think of it as a quick move from a forward stance... to block a groin shot. Stand in a forward stance and shift the forward foot in to block, the pigeon stance has undergond a lot of criticism for just as you say, but think of it on the angle instead of straight on. I struggled with this stance for many years not really understanding it. In the last few years I have come to a better understanding of using it on the angles and not as a fighting stance but as a quick transition position. Then it makes for good coverage.

Isshin Ryu is known for its shorter upright stances. All stances in IR can be attained from one position by shifting. The shifting of course is movement with out stepping. For example we can change the direction of the body by shifting the direction of the hips and feet. So we shift from one stance into another. Another thing about this shift is that an incoming attack is allowed to "glance" off the body. Shift back to the forward stance and it will propell and supply power to a counter punch. we refer to it as "economy of motion"

It is one way of dealing with things.

Nihanchi is a very minimal kata compared to others, but I think it is that way because of the "big" lessons in it.
Mike O'leary

Old Dragon
25th January 2004, 09:39
Funny you should say that about mirroring the students. After a class where I have done the exact same thing with the kids class I have on one or two occassions found myself having to think for a minute which way it starts..hahahhahahha glad to see that I'm not the only monkey that has had occasion to "fall out of the tree"


Mike O'leary

chizikunbo
9th February 2004, 18:04
I beleive that it is this way because of different interpretations from various provinces in okinawa and if one teacher thought something should be done one way, and taught it to his students, they would also be teaching differently, than the original kata's.

Timothy.G.B.
13th February 2004, 19:01
I understand that some schools teach variations on the same kata depending on what level one is learning the kata at.

If a certain student happens to leave the dojo and he/she has learned a certain level of the kata, then that is the level they will teach.

Maybe this would account for the variations?


Tim Black

Old Dragon
14th February 2004, 02:47
I understand that some schools teach variations on the same kata depending on what level one is learning the kata at.

Tim: Are you refering to different versions such as Sho and Dai, or is it an example such as they change the kata?

Do you have an example or style that does this. I am aware of differences such as shushi no kun sho and shushi no kun dai, virtually the short (sho) and long version (dai) and many ryuha have this.

Mike O'Leary

Old Dragon
14th February 2004, 02:51
Indrid.....you know Isshin ryu hahahhahahaha

We pigeon-toe it too, and our horse is only shoulder width. We tend to bend our knees more and that is the biggest difference. Otherwise everything is the "same, same" (some of the Isshin katas are simpler, if that's the right word).



Same same.............its a common saying among Isshin Ryu... apparently Shimabuku used to say it meaning........ yes.. same as that.


Mike O'Leary.

Timothy.G.B.
16th February 2004, 18:38
Old Dragon:

I was referring to different ways of teaching the same kata. For instance I have seen at least three different ways of doing Naihanchi Shodan, but I think it is based on the same basic concept as sho and dai for other katas.

Big, long movements at the beginning stages, then shorter and shorter movements at later stages. I have even seen different moves taught at the same point in the same kata, depending on what the instructor wants to teach the students.

The way I understand it is that the big movements at the beginning help the student develop proper technique in the large muscle groups, which are needed to do the more refined movements.

I am still trying to learn karate so, please, I present these ideas as only my understanding of the topic and not as a statement of "what is" or "what should be" in anyone else's karate.

Sincerely,
Tim Black

Old Dragon
17th February 2004, 01:30
Thanks Tim: Yes I do the same, teach half a kata to the kids, call it sho........ makes learning easier for them. Also Yes I focus on specific moves and "tune them up" later, again just a learning tool ss



You stated....

I am still trying to learn karate so, please, I present these ideas as only my understanding of the topic and not as a statement of "what is" or "what should be" in anyone else's karate.

Sincerely,

Tim Black


Me too,,,,,, always be a student......... I have been a student for a long time.... sensei says one day I just might learn hahahhaha

Mike O'Leary