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Joseph Svinth
13th October 2000, 11:35
There is an interesting discussion going on here:

http://www.budoseek.net/ubb/Forum26/HTML/000008.html

I have some strong opinions on the topic that are stated there, but please follow the links provided at BudoSeek before discussing the topic here, otherwise the discussion will make no sense at all.

yamatodamashii
13th October 2000, 14:07
If these colonels were Lances under me, I would currently be giving them a lecture on "Good initiative, bad judgement".

MarkF
14th October 2000, 07:13
While the Army and Air Force get occasional itches for new "close quarter training" programs, it seems the Marines scratch the most.

The description of a marine in fatigues wearing a black belt certainly is not new. Go to any of the Nindo ryu websites, and there will be at least one or two links of people dressed exactly like this.

The benefits of this are going to be all those whose business cards are changed to "Kung Fu Marine Close Quarter Training Instructor" just below the two patches suggested by the article.
:shot:

Mark

Kolschey
14th October 2000, 13:02
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MarkF


The benefits of this are going to be all those whose business cards are changed to "Kung Fu Marine Close Quarter Training Instructor" just below the two patches suggested by the article.


Mark


Darn! You've been reading my mind! Seriously though, I can't help but wonder what sort of political implications would come with a ranked system. Who would administer the grading, and under what conditions? I would be curious as to whether there is a proposed mechanism in place for quality control, particularly given that part of the proposed curriculum is "creative visualisation".
Having read Strozzi Heckler's account of training Green Berets in Aikido, it would appear that this is an outgrowth of some of the issues which he found compelling. It does seem, though, that many of the people who have service experience are less that impressed. Is the entire premise flawed, or simply in need of intensive modification?
How should the USMC (or other branches) make appropriate decisions about the relevant skills and training in an H2H curriculum?

yamatodamashii
14th October 2000, 13:12
I think that hand to hand combat training in the military is necessary. LINE, Monadnock, even Combat Hitting Skills, were definitely highlights of my USMC training; I was sorry to hear of some of them being disbanded.
I think it would be GREAT to have a system like this in place in the military--I just don't think that the contemporary incarnations of judo and aikido are the way to go. How about we have W. "Hock" Hochheim run one camp, and let Paul Vunak run the other. Marines don't need to "explore each other's energy" (I say, pausing to spit :( ). They need someone who can teach them how to REALLY take somebody apart after their defensive position runs out of ammo.

Joseph Svinth
14th October 2000, 17:14
1. According to the October 2000 "Marine Corps Gazette", USMC operating forces currently do not have enough ammunition to support weapons requal, let alone live fire FTX. (5.56mm ball costs about 20c a shot, .50 cal a bit over a dollar.) Yes, the US Government just gave 20 million rounds to Bosnia, but hey, that's different.

Anyway, reductions in ammo budgets save several million dollars a year. One can buy a lot of kung fu lessons for a couple million dollars a year, you know?

2. Let's say everyone in the Marine Corps becomes Gracie himself. As the Secret Service, does that bother you? Not much, you have Uzis. Now, let's say everyone in the Marine Corps learns to shoot like Lee Harvey Oswald, capable of making multiple hits with a bolt action rifle while shooting downhill at accelerating targets at 200 yards range. As the Secret Service, does that bother you? I suggest it does; your solution is give those kids a wrestling mat.

3. A simple and enjoyable test. Go to the video store and rent two movies, "Tribes" and "Full Metal Jacket". Heckler's program is similar to "Tribes". Ignore Jan Michael Vincent; what is the impact that sort of training has on the DI and the rest of the platoon? Speaking as a parent and taxpayer, was the rest of the platoon and the Corps hurt or improved by the exposure? Next view "Full Metal Jacket", with Lee Ermy Jr. playing LtCol Bristol. Ask the same question.

Now, assume both programs are extremes. Toward which end of the spectrum do you think a Marine Corps of the 21st century should go, and why.

yamatodamashii
14th October 2000, 21:08
I didn't have that information about Marines not being able to re-qual--that's a very serious problem. There is a very good REASON that all Marines are riflemen.
MY point, ignorant of that, was simply that if we're going to do hth training anyway--why not do something more practical and combat oriented?

[Edited by yamatodamashii on 10-14-2000 at 03:26 PM]

Joseph Svinth
15th October 2000, 08:03
LtCol Bristol is both Force Recon and senior in the International Hoplological Society, so in theory his program should be about as practical-ap as exists anywhere.

Be that as it may, the fundamental question is what is the bottom line? Is the goal of a martial arts program (anybody's program) killing and being killed? Or is it learning to remain cool under fire and to make sound judgments under severe stress? If the former, why not do what Henry VIII did and recruit from the prisons rather than the high schools? The recruiters' job would be so much easier. But if the latter, then what is wrong with learning to breathe, center, and relax?

Meanwhile, I keep reminding myself that the discussion is probably moot because, as was sent to me offline, these programs always FAIL due to one or more of the following reasons:

Unit commanders refuse to support these programs because they don't want injuries and potential repercussions.

It isn't made mandatory in the way basic skills training, swim qual, rifle qual, and chemical warfare training are.

It isn't a normal part of "daily PT".

There is no provision for friendly cross unit competitions. After all, there is no kata, kumite, tameshiwari, etc.

Which is just as well, otherwise soon we'll have to deal with the problems of trying to explain to people why our classes don't guarantee you black belt in 247 hours like USMCDojo.

yamatodamashii
15th October 2000, 08:20
The reason that recruiting isn't done from prisons is that people in prison USUALLY have a history of disobedience :) . If we're gonna teach hand to hand, teach hand-to-hand that's useful. If we want to center and relax, teach Transcendental Meditation. It's a LOT quicker.

Other than that, I completely agree. USMCdojo?!? LMAO!

By the way, I hope you didn't take offense at my jibe in the member's forum. My recent exposure to your "living encyclopediahood" has been giving quite a "big fish in a little pond" syndrome... :)

kusanku
15th October 2000, 20:22
Yamato- I agree with you that military programs shold be centered on military objectives.Joe however also has a point.

How about: Breathe, Center. Relax, and shoot?

yes, I got on the member's forum too, that was just too funny.

I also read Heckler's book on training Special Forces.I was in the USAF on a four service base at the tail end of the Vietnam era, and used to train in martial art at the base dojo with members of all the services, including the SF guys and the Marines, also army and Air Force..

Professionals,all. The marines were marines, and that means riflemen, and the SF guys were as pleasant a bunch of cross trained rangers as you could ever wish to meet. Not at all the picture of people that the movies give but very much as Heckler describes them in his book.

If you had something real, they respected it, no matter what it was, but they would systematically probe any claim made to see where the weakness was.

The Marines on the other hand , would find out by the simple expedient of putting you in the sights, and charging.

Both methods were effective and you had to be ready and you'd better be real.

We all hit it off quite well, which always has made me wonder about myself.:SD

At any rate, what type H2H training do I think a twenty-first century Marine Corps needs?

Mission specific stuff.And if you are going to have variable missions, you had best have training suited to the different type missions.

Is there a place for sniffing flowers and finding yourselves?Good Lord.

I think Colonel Bristol's stuff will instill fighting spirit.Maybe the Spartan stuff needs to be left out of it.

But Heckler is not a military man, never was, he was never even in the Air Force:-), and he's teaching Marines?I remember Tribes, and Full Metal Jacket too. Extremes is right.

I kinda want the guys from Full Metal Jacket nearby if the base is getting overrun. Or at least the ones from Firebase Gloria, including especially the Air Cav.'Suicide Mission yes indeed yo ho, yo ho...:-)'

I don't care if they found themselves and commune with themselves or not.


And if I recall correctly, on the firing range, the instructions were something like, relax,breathe, hold, squeeze,bulls eye.

yamatodamashii
15th October 2000, 21:56
Heckler? Who is Heckler?

Robert Carver
15th October 2000, 22:34
But Heckler is not a military man, never was, he was never even in the Air Force:-), and he's teaching Marines?

I am in the process of reading the book "In Search of the Warrior Spirit" by Richard Strozzi Heckler. You should reread the book John. Richard Strozzi Heckler is former Corporal Richard S Heckler, USMC. He served in the mid-sixties. Says it right there in the book.

Anyway, the book is excellent. Definately recommended reading whether you agree with his approach or not.

kusanku
16th October 2000, 04:27
SoHeckler was in the USMC? Didn't come off that way, I must have glossed over that part.

He fit with the SF guys like Iron and Cheese.

Anyway, his approach is the mystical Aikido of the Uyeshiba -ites.

Which is impressive until you consider Yoshinkan or something else used by the Tokyo Riot Police. maybe that's what they ought to teach them.

I still think Col. Bristol may have, at leas physically, a better approach.

Not the best though. I actually think they should revive for the combat mission, the Applegate-fairbairn-Sykes CQB stuff, for the peacekeeping mission perhaps the judo approach or the yoshinkan aikido type stuff, for the embassy guards maybe the SPEAR system of Tony Blauer, and for Police missions the chin na restraint techniques with strike backup.

Heck, if they're not going to give them any ammo, they need the best.

Seems kinda strange though.

The meditation stuff, maybe they should teach that and maybe not, I really wonder.

I have had my trouble with some of the hombu aikido philosophy when it came time to put it in practice, and I wonder why this is being taught U.S. Marines, is all.

really, for Marine Close Quarter combat, usually the rifle is going to be present, and if not and you want simple, I would suggest basic karate.

Something on the lines of what is taught in, maybe , Okinawan shorin style. My teachers were both ex marines in these arts.

They picked them up real well.

Joseph Svinth
16th October 2000, 06:08
Personally I think the true fundamental is breathe, center, and relax. Do I need to drop the hammer? No? Well, if I'm breathing, centered, and relaxed, probably I won't. As a result, no regrets. But if yes, then the round goes center mass. It is sad, but it is necessary.

Fear is not good for teaching breathing, centering, and relaxation.

Visualizations are good, too. However, they need to be selected better. If we assume Spartans, Zulus (Shaka liked literal witch-hunts, kinda like McCarthy, only he had his victims impaled), and the Imperial Japanese are not the best military role models for post-modern combined arms militaries, who would we recommend?

Well, let's start by thinking about how the Marines are likely to be used. They are going to be inserted into somebody else's back yard.

So in World War II there is Okinawa, where Eugene Sledge's book "With the Old Breed at Pelelieu and Okinawa" lets you know exactly what life was like. In Korea, there is Frozen Chosen. The Marines went in slow, to MacArthur's disgust, and came out slow, to the consternation of the Chinese. And in Vietnam, there is comparison and contrast, the Foreign Legion at Dien Bien Phu and the Marines at Khe Sahn. (Air superiority is the key lesson there; never forget that the USMC provides about 15% of US tactical airpower, and probably 60% of its non-helicopter close-air support. "The Great Santini" is the novel and movie of Marine air of the post-WWII era.)

Meanwhile, if you're simultaneously trying to teach ethics (and the importance of thinking things through), well, there's always SSgt Matthew McKeown, a Parris Island DI who one night in the mid-1950s decided to conduct some unauthorized night training in which half a dozen recruits died. There is Oliver North, selling cocaine for contras and then wrapping himself in a flag and running for Congress. There is the A-6 driver who, flying too low, snagged the gondola in Italy and then destroyed the film in the flight recorder to cover his tracks. And there is Lee Harvey Oswald, who was either set up or the finest rifle shot in history.

These examples, good and bad, within our grandparents' lifetimes, come not from outside, but from inside, our Corps. Tatamae and honne are not entirely Japanese, we just call them different things. And me, I want to tell kids why they are part of the finest combined arms force in the world, the US Naval community. These colors don't run is the lesson we teach, from our own history, our own examples, our own blood.

yamatodamashii
16th October 2000, 08:09
I'm going to discuss this visualization thing, but I want first to establish that I remain unimpressed by either program--I'm not arguing IN FAVOR of "the Spartans"--I just think that Mr. Svinth (is Joe okay?) may be missing the point.

The idea of visualizing the "Spartan Warrior" (at least, in my opinion) is akin to having someone with a moral dilemma ask themselves "What would my hero do?". What's being created is an historically inaccurate, idealized "charicature" of the "perfect warrior", to provide a character reference for hostile situations. It is NOT being suggested the the Marines actually re-create the historical lifestyle of the condom namesake.

I also notice that you never got around to suggesting any POSITIVE role-models. Respectfully, I suggest that that is because role-models are people, all of whom are flawed (even if only through cultural bias, like the Spartans). I might suggest "Chesty" Puller--THE Marine--as a role-model. He was tough (swimming with a .50 cal, anyone?), inventive (oh, like... air superiority), and eloquent (come on, you apes! You wanna live forever?). However, I am quite certain that, given the time and resources, I could dig up any number of deleterious things to say about him--off the top of my head, his policy that "a Marine isn't a Marine unless he's had at least one NJP."

------------------------------------------------------------
Change of Topic:

I think that, by now, it goes without saying that I fully support your ideas about the US Naval community and "the colors that never run".

:)

OOOH-Rah!

[Edited by yamatodamashii on 10-16-2000 at 05:25 AM]

Joseph Svinth
16th October 2000, 20:42
Yes, Joe is fine.

***

Puller's SON'S book is kinda scathing. Still, Puller's finest hour was probably when he schmoozed Congress following the Parris Island deaths caused by McKeown.
The book by SLA Marshall's grandson is also somewhat scathing. Nevertheless, both books up forgiving, too; like Bull Meecham in "The Great Santini" (who is based on Conroy's father), the subjet of the investigation ends up being a multidimensional human being rather than a fictional hero.

Tactically speaking, Sledge is my idea of the perfect Marine -- he went something like 118 days in the line at Okinawa and never got a Purple Heart. He was a PFC, jotted notes in his Bible, and went back home to become a college professor. Around age 60, he published his Bible jottings for his children, and the children sent some to Marine Corps Gazette, and the result was a fine book.

Another fine book is "Requiem for Battleship Yamato", which describes the naval portion of the Okinawa campaign from a Japanese perspective. "Just as my physical body is on the point of dying, my soul finally ignites; with everything stripped away, only that which is truly me remains," says author Yoshida. Which is the point both Bristol and Heckler are trying to take their charges, albeit by different routes.

Now, a book that colonel likes is Steven Pressfield's "Gates of Fire". I found it anachronistic and poorly written -- the middle dragged -- but it's Amazon's #657 best-seller, and I guess the Helots can't be wrong. There are hundreds of reviews at Amazon.com and the book only costs $6 in paperback, so you can't go too wrong.

Dan Daly was the one who said, "C'mon you SOBs, you want to live forever?" The occasion was a human wave attack at Belleau Wood in 1917 that led to appalling casualties and several future Marine generals (who were then lieutenants) saying that they would never do anything like that again. (And so far as I know, they never ordered anyone to do so during their watch.) Daly's two Medals of Honor are interesting; he got his first for machine-gunning a human wave attack at Peking and his second for leading a human wave attack in France.

The entire 1950-1951 campaign is worth close study. At Chosen, the USMC's General Smith ignored General MacArthur, ignored 8th Army's General Almond, and ran his campaign slowly and methodically. His Marines still got into Seoul ahead of Dugout Doug -- Doug never did forgive them for ruining his photo opportunity by having US flags waving all the way along his triumphant advance into the city -- and trashed the Koreans going up to Yalu and the Chinese coming out. "When you hear the pitter-patter of little feet, it's the US Army in full retreat" was not something Smith wanted said about the Marines, so, as he told the press, "We went in as United States Marines and we'll come out as United States Marines." Smith had moral courage to tell his commander no, and to put the welfare of his men and the accomplishment of his mission above his officer evaluation report. The Pentagon certainly wouldn't want that kind of Marine to be a role model for the 2000s, now would it?

And you know why they still don't let Marines be in charge of joint task forces if they can help it? Because back in 1944 Howlin' Mad Smith (different Smith) fired a New York National Guard general named Ralph Smith (another different Smith) for incompetence. Which Ralph was, but Marines aren't supposed to fire Army generals in the middle of a campaign. (Among other things, Ralph wouldn't start an attack before 8 a.m., and always ended by 4 p.m., as that was how it was always done on maneuvers. Even the Japanese found that a little shocking. But Ralph had great political connections in New York, and as a result the Marines were never put in charge of a joint operation again. Maybe now it will be different, but I doubt it -- the Naval services have a different perspective on command responsibility than the Army.)

Now, if you want fire-team level heroics, there is Manila John Basilone -- check the Medal of Honor citations to learn what he and his watercooled Browning M1917A1 .30 caliber machine gun did to a Japanese battalion. From the Army, there is Sergeant York, who, trusting in God, captured a heavy weapons company by himself while the rest of his company lay pinned face down in the dirt.

And, while reading, don't forget Ron Kovacs' "Born on the Fourth of July." Imagine yourself without legs for the rest of your life, Lance Corporal. That is part of the reality of soldiering, too.

Then go to the other extreme and read the biography of SAC commander Tom Powers (no relation to Guy): As a B-29 general in March 1945, Powers circled Tokyo for hours without his oxygen mask so he could bask in the smell of a quarter million Japanese burn, and upon returning to Tinian his first words to his superior, Curtis LeMay, were, "It looked like hell." Twenty years later, as chief of Strategic Air Command (the B-52 and missile force), Power said (and believed) that if, following a nuclear exchange, there were three Americans and two Russians left alive, then it would be counted as an American victory. When made, "Dr. Strangeglove" was not a fantasy.

Anyway, one purpose of visualization is to know in advance what you are willing to kill for, die for, and live with afterwads. But another purpose of the reading is also to make us aware of our enemy as well as ourselves. Know your enemy, know yourself, you will be victorious in a hundred battles.

To know your enemy, you have to become him in your mind. What seems irrational to you is the heart of his belief. If I am a Spartan, then I must know whether I prefer goat intestines or sheep testicles in my sausage. Like Fox Mulder, I must live inside the head of the monster. I must know his fantasies, his nightmares, his dreams, his obsessions. And I must be grounded enough that when I peer too long into the abyss that I don't fall in.

Picture yourself Odysseus chained to the mast as you pass the Sirens, not as Achilleus dragging dead Trojan heroes behind your chariot.

A positive spin is for politicians and generals; unvarnished truth is for the sergeants and lieutenants.

***

As for actual H2H programs, starting next month I will post the instructor's manual for "Air Crew Self-Defense Techniques", February 1963, at EJMAS. (My attitude remains one of don't create something new until you know what has already been done. Otherwise your invention may not be new at all.)

Kid tested, mother approved, it's a combination of Shotokan karate and Kodokan judo, with a little Tomiki aikido, wrestling, and boxing thrown in...

yamatodamashii
16th October 2000, 21:19
Originally posted by Joseph Svinth


Another fine book is "Requiem for Battleship Yamato",


Yamato! :)


Originally posted by Joseph Svinth


Dan Daly was the one who said, "C'mon you SOBs, you want to live forever?"


Ummm... I'm just gonna go stand in the corner... at least until I quit blushing. Shouldn't be more than a week or two... :(



Originally posted by Joseph Svinth


Smith had moral courage to tell his commander no, and to put the welfare of his men and the accomplishment of his mission above his officer evaluation report. The Pentagon certainly wouldn't want that kind of Marine to be a role model for the 2000s, now would it?


Heaven forfend!


Originally posted by Joseph Svinth



(Among other things, Ralph wouldn't start an attack before 8 a.m., and always ended by 4 p.m., as that was how it was always done on maneuvers. Even the Japanese found that a little shocking.


Not that this is on quite the same level of error (hey, it's (relatively) peace-time), but I have a friend in the reserves who just told me that his Lt. can't fill all the billets in platoon; he believes that, for example, only a Sergeant can be a "Platoon Sergeant". (sigh...)


Originally posted by Joseph Svinth


And, while reading, don't forget Ron Kovacs' "Born on the Fourth of July." Imagine yourself without legs for the rest of your life, Lance Corporal. That is part of the reality of soldiering, too.


If the rank reference is to me, I'm a Corporal (if it's about the book--haven't read it yet... sorry). Other than that--I absolutely agree. That lies close to what I was trying to convey recently in the NHB vs. koryu thread (about perceived threat; dog brothers vs. real guy with machete).


Originally posted by Joseph Svinth


Anyway, one purpose of visualization is to know in advance what you are willing to kill for, die for, and live with afterwads. But another purpose of the reading is also to make us aware of our enemy as well as ourselves. Know your enemy, know yourself, you will be victorious in a hundred battles.


OOH-Rah, Sun Tze!


Originally posted by Joseph Svinth


To know your enemy, you have to become him in your mind. What seems irrational to you is the heart of his belief. If I am a Spartan, then I must know whether I prefer goat intestines or sheep testicles in my sausage. Like Fox Mulder, I must live inside the head of the monster. I must know his fantasies, his nightmares, his dreams, his obsessions. And I must be grounded enough that when I peer too long into the abyss that I don't fall in.


Hmmm... I know that the more complete the visualization is, the better it tends to work... But 'complete' STILL doesn't mean 'historically accurate'. And really, some of that's more than I need to think about (sheep testicles... gak!). A 'complete' visualization of an idealized "Spartan Warrior" will be just as effective in making subconscious imprints as an historically accurate image of Spartan soldier(perhaps more so, since it will be easier for the trainees to identify with the idealized charicature)--and a lot less likely to make the trainees lose their lunch.


Originally posted by Joseph Svinth


A positive spin is for politicians and generals; unvarnished truth is for the sergeants and lieutenants.


Here, here!


Originally posted by Joseph Svinth


As for actual H2H programs, starting next month I will post the instructor's manual for "Air Crew Self-Defense Techniques", February 1963, at EJMAS. (My attitude remains one of don't create something new until you know what has already been done. Otherwise your invention may not be new at all.)

Kid tested, mother approved, it's a combination of Shotokan karate and Kodokan judo, with a little Tomiki aikido, wrestling, and boxing thrown in...

I'm looking forward! Keep it real, sir!

[Edited by yamatodamashii on 10-16-2000 at 03:39 PM]

Neil Hawkins
17th October 2000, 04:30
I have been involved with training the military (in an unofficial context, I must stress) and have found a limited amout of 'touchy-feely' is essential in tempering the weapon that is the mind.

We must remember that the origins of CQB come from a time of war where it really was your life or mine, now-a-days, the conflicts tend more toward police actions, like UN deployments. This is a situation when a clear head and a calm mind will do more to ensure your survival than fast fists and a killer instinct.

There are people that disagree with Grossman on Killology (dicussed on the Budoseek thread), but on the whole I think what he says makes sense. We must remember what is going to happen after the soldiers' tenure is up, do we really want to release hardened killers onto our streets? Many of the marines that go through this training will only serve 6 years or less then get out.

As I said before what we want is a finely honed precision weapon, we must train the mind, accountability is important, so is compassion and anger management. But effective skills are crucial and so a balance of both is needed. I tend to agree that this training should be tailored to the students, SF need diferent skills from general infantry.

The sort of thing that should be taught to all personnel should be more self defence based, after all statistically most of the troops have more chance of being mugged or beaten up in a bar than performing H2H in combat.

Are they going to train the women recruits as well? Again they have more chance of being raped than going into a H2H combat situation.

Good points all round, the good stuff always comes up when I'm on holidays and can't live on-line :)(BTW. Mark, having a wonderful time, one grading down, one to go, I never left Australia just flew 16000km's around it!)

Regards

Neil

yamatodamashii
17th October 2000, 05:09
Let me know if I'm just bogging this down in semantics... Sometimes I do that and don't catch myself.

If the stated goal of the program were to teach every Marine self-defense to prevent muggings and rape, I think that Judo or Aikido would each be up to the task. However, what I remember Gen. Jones saying was that he wanted a H2H program to continue the Marines' tradition of being an elite military force--and I do not believe, based on what I read, that that is what is being provided by this training.

And YES--I'm still blushing.