Japanese sword / Some tips for the buyers

[H. Hoshino]

Dear Japanese sword enthusiasts,

It is very dangerous to buy and collect Japanese swords without the proper knowledge.

The reasons include the following:

1. There are too many junk swords floating in the US. In the 1940's, there were many swords made by the Australian soldiers and by the Indonesians.

2. There are many non-Japanese swords made recently in China, in the US garage & in Japan.

3. There are many unscrupulous sword dealers in the US. They make shady manuevers. I met a lot of victims in the past 3 decades.

4. The majority of the swords in the US are not polished. Therefore, we cannot see the Hamon, Ji-hada & Hatarki to identify the swords' birthplace, production year or swordsmith location.

5. If you cannot distinguish the Gendaito from the Hantanto, you will be taken in by the unscrupulous sword dealers. These 2 swords look very alike, but the true value is totally different. The Hantanto were made from 1941 to 1945 for military use. The Gendaito were produced from 1868 to present time. The 3 military swords ( Hantanto, Manshuto & Kikai-zukuri Gunto ) are illegal to own in Japan.

Will be talking with you.

Sinceely,

H. Hoshino / On a Happy Day in San Francisco, California

PS. The terminology: Hamon ( Temering line ) / Ji-hada ( Texture ) / Hataraki ( Special effects after Yaki-ire or tempering process ) / Hantan-to ( 1/2 machine-made sword ) / Gendaito ( Modern-day swords ) / Kikai-zukuri ( 100 % machine-made sword ) / Manshuto ( Manchurian swords ) /

[Tim Atkinson]

H. Hoshino,

I would like to hear more about the Australian soldiers making gunto. I served in the Australian Army for ten years and have not heard or read of this.

I hope you could expand on this issue.

When, where and why were these swords made?

If they were made, they would have to be in very small quanities.

Looking forward to your supply

[gmlc123]

Tim

Hopefully, Hoshino-san will elaborate in more detail for you.

BTW I have heard of this story from a knowledgable friend, retired ex-solicitor.

He mentioned that at the end of the war, some of the US troops organised for the springs of Jeeps and other scrap metal to produce katana in Papua New Guinea for returning soldiers. The indigenous locals under supervision of US soldiers actually produced the swords which were sold to returning US and Australian soldiers as momentos for a tidy profit.

[Tim Atkinson]

Greg,

possibly I miss understood, I thought that he was saying the aussie diggers produced the swords themselves.

I have seen a couple of examples of what you talk of, I could not see how anyone could believe that they anything other than a cheap copy of the "real thing".

I guess though, if you had no previous exposure to a Japanese sword you may be taken in. But you would still have to think that it was a very poor example of a Japanese sword.

[pgsmith]

It is very dangerous to buy and collect Japanese swords without the proper knowledge.
That is an extremely true statement. It is also very dangerous to send them to polishers without the proper training. We should all be very careful who we send our swords to and who we buy them from. Always check with the Better Business Bureau to make sure there have been no complaints against the person you are purchasing swords or getting work from.

Very true words Mr. Hoshino.

[gmlc123]

Tim

I agree 100%, but that's from our perspective knowing a little :) and now that I'm thinking of it.. it may have been the Aussie troops doing it and selling to US troops.

It was many years ago he told me, but I'll check with him and send you a PM.

[H. Hoshino]

Dear my fellow Martial Artists,

I am glad that you have shared your experince and knowledge with others. Hopefully a lot of novice MA students hear our conversation pertaining to the Japanese swords.

The US soldiers were better paid than the rest of the Allied soldiers right after the WWII. Anything that looked like the Japanese swords were sold well, therefore, the imitations Japanese swords were made by the Australian soldiers and Indonesians for selling their products to Americans for small profit. Possibly, they did not want other people to know their secret business deal.

Regarding the Tsuba made by the Indonesians: They look too far away from the real thing. The shape of Tsuba is basiclly round and the drill was used for making the various holes.

Regarding the Pusedo Japanese swords: They were secretly made by the Australian soldiers in the Port Moresby and other locations ( Islands ) where the Americans stationed. The Tsuka was covered with lizard or snake skins and then cord wrapped. The inferior Fuchi and Kashira intact. The cord warpping is poorly done. In the Saya, there are usually 2 Seme-gane ( Tightening rings ), Koiguchi and Kojiri, covered with lizard skin ( One side ) & sanke skin ( the other side ). The proportion of Tsuka and the Saya is totally off. After selling all their products, they run out of the materials, therefore, the soldiers often destoryed the brand new Jeep to get some parts and made the pseudo-Japanese swords afterward.

Sincerely,

H. Hoshino

On a Happy Day in San Francisco, California

[Cady Goldfield]

Dear Mr. Hoshino.
Why is it illegal to own military (half/full-machine made; Manshu) swords in Japan? I had heard that the Japanese government wanted to destroy swords that were not made by traditional forging and smithing processes - is that the reason?

It's great to have some solid history and information about what to watch for when collecting swords. Thanks for sharing!

[H. Hoshino]

Dear Cady San,

I thank you for reading my educational message.

I would like to give you & share some more information about the Hantanto Gunto other Gunto.

The 3 military swords ( Gunto ) were made for the Imperial Japanese soldiers during WWII as the waeapons. The Japanese Government does not recognized them as the antique artifacts. Technically speaking, the Kottou-hin ( Antiques ) must be over 100 years old in Japan.

1. Kikai-zukuri ( 100 % machine-made ) Gunto / Identification tips: The Tsuka portion is made of aluminum, no real Tsuka-maki. / There is one Kanji character ( Na or Tou ) appeared in front of numeral numbers by the Habaki-moto. / A simple locking mechanism by the Tsuba intact. / There are Hi ( Grooves ) on both sides of the blade. / The true value: $ 75 more or less.

2. Hantanto Gunto / Identification may be difficult since there are both Mumei-to ( without inscription ) and Zaimei-to ( With inscription ) exist. One of 4 military markings ( Kanji chararcter of Na, Gi, Sho or Na ) is often appeared in the Nakago area. The Hamon are Sugu-ha ( Straight ) or Sanbon-sugi ( Zig-zag ) or Tagariba ( Pointed ). / They are officially called " Sunobe " or " stretched metal " / Made of bar stock ! / Since they were not folded, therefore, no Hada ( Texture ) visible in the blade. / The normal length is anywhere from 63 cm to 66 cm. Note: One inch = 2.54 cm / Oil quenched ! / The file marks: Taka no Hane ( Hawk feather ) if they were made in the Seki area. / They were made in the Gifu-Ken ( Prefecture ) or Aichi-Ken mainly. / The true value: $ 350 more or less !

Note: In 1985, I have met an senior & executive NBTHK memebr ( Lives in the Kyushu area now in his early 80's ) and he told me that the Hanatnto are shame of Japan's products during WWII !

3. Manshuto Gunto / The Omote-Mei: The Kanji characters " Mantetsu-Saku " appeared in the Nakago as always ! / The Kanji characters " Koua-Ishin ( Put Asia in one heart ) " also appeared ( Not always ) in the Nakago. / The Hamon is Sugauha as always ! / Other Kanji appeared in the Nakago as the Ura-Mei: Kanoto-Mi ( 1941 ) Mizunoe-Uma ( 1942 ) Mizunoto-Hitzuji ( 1943 ) Kinoe Saru ( 1944 ) Chu-shun or Naka-Haru ( Mid spring ) Chu-shu or Naka-aki ( Mid fall ) / The true value: $ 450 more or less.

Note: I had an excellent Manshuto for my Tamehi-Giri ( Test cutting ) training from 1981 to 1990. I bought it in 1981 for $ 125 and performed the restoration work accordingly. This Manshuto cuts so much better than other Gunto I ever had in my collection.

The Japanese Government certified Katana-kaji ( Swordsmiths ) produce the authentic Nipponto ( Japanese swords ):

1. The 2 blades per month

2. Material: Nothing but Tama-hagane ( Iron bearing sand )

3. Koshiki-Tanren-ho ( The old fashioned folding & forging method )

The above mentioned swords produced by the Katana-kaji are officially recognized by the Japanese Government as the Artifact value Japanese swords.

Cady San, if you visit the SF Bay area, I can meet you personally and show you some of my Hantanto swords for comparison & for your study. I have 2 Manshuto, 8 Hantanto & 2 Kikai-zukuri Gunto in my collections now. They are used for educating my students during the weekly and monthly sword study meetings at my Dojo ( Martial Art School ) in San Francisco, California.

Will be talking with you again.

Sincerely,

H.Hoshino / On a Happy Day in San Francisco, California


PS. I had a few visitors from Japan in 1995. They were all Japanese shop ownwers in Tokyo. They have never seen the Hantanto before, so I let them hold in their hands for inspection. At that time, I had approximatley 35 Hantanto. Since the Hantanto are illegal in Japan, the majority of the sword collectors never seen them in the past.

PPS. In 1996, I have visited the Tokyo area and have seen 2 Hantanto registered in Japan. The Togi has been done skillfully and they looked like the Gendaito. Both Hantanto's military markings were removed from the Nakago area. The prices were amazingly $ 2,000 & $ 2,400.

[Sammy Briggs]

Mr. Hoshino,

By chance, are you the same Harunaka Hoshino from San Francisco who was the head of the "Ninja Empire" in the late 1980's/early 1990's, and author of the video set entitled "Ninja Style Kenjutsu"? Unless I am thinking of a different person, I believe that you are now in charge of the San Francisco Japanese Sword Society.

http://members.aol.com/Sfkatana/

I believe that I've seen you at a few shows in the past. You usually had a very large booth with more than a couple swords for sale. I may be thinking of a different person however... You seem to know quit a bit about Nihonto. Please feel free to share your background with us so we know who we are speaking with. Are you a member in good standing with the NBTHK, NTHK, JSS/US, or San Francisco Token Kai?


Thank you in advance for your reply,

Sammy Briggs
Hokuzan Dojo

[Cady Goldfield]

Dear Mr. Hoshino,

Thank you for all of that information. I am copying and saving it!

I have three Hantanto that my uncle brought back from Japan in 1948. He gave them to my father, who gave them to me. One is mounted in an old tsuka (perhaps from a family katana). The second is mounted in a military tsuka made during WWII. The third is an unmounted blade that came in a carved wooden container that looks like a bokuto.

The blades match your descriptions completely, including the filing pattern and the kanji, hamon (Sanbon-sugi) and unfolded, oil-quenced steel.

It's quite interesting to see that even these unfavored blades have an interesting history. I also was told that the Japanese consider these swords to be shameful to their swordmaking tradition. Is it true that any such gunto brought into the country are smelted down and destroyed by the government?

Cady
P.S. Thank you for the invitation, which is most generous. The next time I am in the Bay Area, I will certainly write ahead to see whether it is convenient for you to meet.

[H. Hoshino]

Dear Japanese sword enthusiasts,

I like the Hantanto and the Manchurian swords for Tameshi-giri and Kenjutsu training. They are excellent weapons. Some Hantanto were really used for decapitation by the Japanese soldiers during WWI in the Pacific.

I had a friend who visited from Tokyo in 1993 and purchased 3 swords through the local gun show in San Francisco. I told him about the 2 of them were Hantanto and he did not take me seriously. The 2 Hantanto were confiscated and destroyed at the Narita Airport when he returned to Japan. Only one Koto was officially registered at the Narita Airport.

If he was coming back to the US, these 2 Hantanto maybe returned to him upon leaving Japan. He is a college professor in Tokyo and married a Japanese wife. He had to abondoned his 2 Hantanto at the Narita Airport.

Will be talking with you again.

Sincerely,

H. Hoshino


PS. Terminology: Han tan to ( 1/2 forged sword ) or Han-gitae-gatana ( The same Kanji were used ) /

[Kendoguy9]

Hello all,

I would like to caution anyone interested in Japanese swords about Mr. Hoshino. He is indeed the ninja master from the 80's. He has published many articles in old Budo mag's about Nihonto. While some of the stuff he says is true, his craftsmanship is awful.

He has a VERY poor reputation in the nihonto community. He is known for destroying priceless swords he "polishes." Although he claims to be a sword polisher he is not. There are also rumors that swords sent to him for "evaluation" of value, were mysteriously lost in the mail. He has also been banned from some sword and gun shows.

He often will post quizzes about the subtle terms of sword collectors and attempt to impress the unwary with jargon and lingo.

I would suggest checking out the Nihonto and Token Kenkyu Kai mailing lists and asking people on there about him. Also check out http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm. As for information about gendaito and gunto I would check out the works of Yoshindo Yoshihara and Leon Kapp.

Please be careful with your swords,

[Grisha]

This might be a little off topic but how high quality would a Paul Chen Pratical Plus Katana be for training, or a Folded Tiger Katana of the same maker but 3 times more money than the Practical Plus due to the folding techniques?

Any suggestions?

[Soulend]

I would like to caution anyone interested in Japanese swords about Mr. Hoshino. He is indeed the ninja master from the 80's

Mr. Covington, is this the same guy that used to drive around in a van with 'Ninja Master' or something similar on the side?

If this is the same gentleman, I have read a number of accounts of folk who have sent nihonto to him to be polished, and got them back ruined - if they even got them back at all.

[Eric Baluja]

In the '70s he was known as Chih Yuan, I believe, and claimed to be a grandmaster of kung fu, coinciding curiously with the popularity of kung fu in the '70s. In the '80s he claimed to be a grandmaster of "Fuma-ryu ninjutsu," coinciding curiously with the popularity of "ninjutsu" in the '80s. I'm a little surprised he didn't change his name to "Gracie" in the '90s -- oh wait, I forgot, he would have had to enter competitions and actually prove himself.

Stay away; stay very, very, very far away.

[Sammy Briggs]

For a second, I thought I was the only one who knew of Hoshino's reputation. Yes, he is the guy who used to drive the ninja van and went by a Chinese name. He claims to be born in Tokyo, but who knows. I thought he was Chinese. Since he did not respond to my question about being in good standing with any of the prominent token kai, I assume that he is not a recognized member of any of these organizations.

It seems pretty apparent what his scheme is. Martial artists have never really been known for their sword evaluation skills. Hoshino seems to recognize this and is trying to capitalize on it. From out of nowhere, he creats some posts with some interesting facts and bits of information to catch peoples attention make himself seem credible. He has since, wasted no time in pushing his "hantanto" as a good "martial arts" grade swords and has invited the unsuspecting to come study handle wrapping and what not at his dojo. He has even offered to perform an "official" kantei on blades free of charge. I can imagine that any blades with potential will have to be sent to him for closer inspection.

Unfortunately, Hoshino probably does know a bit about nihonto. By knowning more than the buyer, many shady sword dealers are able to make easy money from those who simply don't know any better. Who do you trust? The sword community is small. Go to any local token kai and ask who is reputable. Just make sure to get second opinions.

I'm sure that Hoshino will walk out the door just as quickly as he came in.


Sammy Briggs
Hokuzan Dojo

[Tim Mailloux]

I too have been warned of the reputation of Mr. Hoshino. Just as I found this thread is was in the middle of a PM to the site admin concearning Mr. Hoshino and his shady past.

Stay very far away from this person, and keep your blades even farther away.

[Cady Goldfield]

That's good to know, and thanks for the heads up.
Regardless of his past and reputation, however, I found Mr. Hoshino's basic information on gunto to be very helpful, and it corroborates what I have learned from other sources.

And, I have no pretentions of my hantanto being of any use as martial arts weapons. ;) Fortunately, my own instructor is very knowledgeable, as well as a highly skilled bladesmith. He provides the best advice and information on blades that I need to know.

[Tim Mailloux]

Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
That's good to know, and thanks for the heads up.
Regardless of his past and reputation, however, I found Mr. Hoshino's basic information on gunto to be very helpful, and it corroborates what I have learned from other sources.

And, I have no pretentions of my hantanto being of any use as martial arts weapons. ;) Fortunately, my own instructor is very knowledgeable, as well as a highly skilled bladesmith. He provides the best advice and information on blades that I need to know.

Cady,
Useful information or not, it is quite obvious to those familiar with Mr. Hoshino’s reputation that his sole purpose for joining this forum and providing his interesting tid bits of information is to drum up business and possible rip off more unsuspecting customers.

Remember that not everyone is as lucky as you to have a blade smith for a sensei. Most JSA people now next to nothing about nihonto and are very easy to rip off. It is the civic duty of those members of this forum familiar with Mr. Hoshino’s reputation to warn the E-budo community.

[Cady Goldfield]

No arguement there, Tim. I just thought you were referring to me, since I was asking questions.

[Soulend]

Originally posted by Eric Baluja
In the '70s he was known as Chih Yuan, I believe, and claimed to be a grandmaster of kung fu, coinciding curiously with the popularity of kung fu in the '70s. In the '80s he claimed to be a grandmaster of "Fuma-ryu ninjutsu," coinciding curiously with the popularity of "ninjutsu" in the '80s. I'm a little surprised he didn't change his name to "Gracie" in the '90s -- oh wait, I forgot, he would have had to enter competitions and actually prove himself.

Stay away; stay very, very, very far away.

Interesting, as according to this article (http://www.prweb.com/releases/2003/1/prweb53743.htm) he was born in Japan. Yet he apparently went by a Chinese name in the 70's, and yet another source I have has told me that he is in fact Korean.

[Finny]

and, incredibly, once he is called out, he stops posting.

"Will be talking with you again" - somehow I think not.:p

[Richie112]

Originally posted by Finny
and, incredibly, once he is called out, he stops posting.

"Will be talking with you again" - somehow I think not.:p


I think you will find he is actually still posting in other threads.

[Soulend]

Yeah, he stops posting in the thread in which he is called out and simply starts another. Quite frankly, given his reputation, I am shocked that he has the cojones to post here at all.

[Finny]

I think you will find he is actually still posting in other threads
Of course, that's the point I was making. While I personally haven't had any experience with the man, and so probably should have kept me mouth shut, I have heard of his.. err antics before.
Taken together with the previous advice from well respected forumites, and it seemed a bit odd to me that he was always happy to chime in with some reasonable but quite basic explanations of terminology (as well as advertising his "appraisal/tsukamaki etc etc" services), but when he is called out over his suspect reputation, he mysteriously vanishes, only to appear on another thread.

....things that make you go:shot:

[glad2bhere]

Dear Grisha:

".....This might be a little off topic but how high quality would a Paul Chen Pratical Plus Katana be for training, or a Folded Tiger Katana of the same maker but 3 times more money than the Practical Plus due to the folding techniques?...."

I beleive this is where the source of the purchase becomes very important. For instance, I have had nothing but good things reported about BUGEI TRADING CO who sell Paul Chen/ Hanwei Forge swords. Its not that the swords are somehow specially made for these folks but rather that James Williams who headsup things at BUGEI is pretty much a stickler for quality control and the satisfaction of the customer.

Comparing this with the same sword purchased from a lesser known purveyor, you could possibly get the same sword for a lesser price, but I doubt the quality control would be there. In my training performance is everything and price---- even furniture--- take a backseat. For this reason I recommend a well-regarded source over a less expensive one. Failing that I would be guided to whatever source my teacher chooses, and support his recommendation. In my case (Kum Bup) my teacher has purchased from Sehyun. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[koeikannidan]

I had nothing but trouble getting my sword back from Mr Hoshino. Anyone want personal advise on how I almost did not get my sword back from this man, please email me. He was paid to polish, make new tsuka, and saya and almost five months later I still dont have everything that was promised and paid for.

[koeikannidan]

I had nothing but trouble getting my sword back from Mr Hoshino. Anyone want personal advise on how I almost did not get my sword back from this man, please email me. He was paid to polish, make new tsuka, and saya and almost five months later I still dont have everything that was promised and paid for.
I never recieved my saya and its has now been 8 months. he was paid $290 upfront for the work. He will not return emails nor telephone calls. I am going to take him to small claims court to get my money from him. Unbelieveable, what an honorable samurai(sensei). Beware people when deeling with this man........................

[glad2bhere]

....and people wonder why I have such a burr under my saddle about mixing commerce and MA traditions. The issue is not so much that someone wants to make an honest income from providing a service. Rather, I get tired of the bad apples casting a cloud over an entire family of activities. FWIW.


Best Wishes,

Bruce