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Shikiyanaka
9th January 2004, 15:18
Hello Forum,

I am wondering about one thing:

As in the general forums there is the distinction between Ryukyuan Unarmed Martial Arts and Karate; which would be the definition for the differentiation between those two?

Does Okinawa Karate belong to "Ryukyuan Unarmed Martial Arts" or to "Karate."

Is "Ryukyuan" meant as a geographical description or does it mean that it is a heritage of Ryukyu Kingdom times, and if the latter is yes, why than this is not also true for "Karate."

I know that there were many feedbacks from Japan proper to Okinawa, like the dan/kyû system, the "nessesity" of changing Tôdi to Karate, the Jûdô-gi or the martial arts ranks of Kyôshi, Hanshi... and others.

As in this neither the "Ryukyuan Unarmed Martial Arts" nor the "Karate" is pure and historically and culturally independent from one another, where there is the distinction to be made?

Gene Williams
9th January 2004, 21:43
The word "karate" was first used in 1904 by Hanagi Chomo in his book "Karate Soshu Hen." He was Okinawan; karate is an Okinawan art.

Shikiyanaka
12th January 2004, 10:44
Guten Tag Gene,

does it mean that it was written Karate 空手? I ask because the Tô of Tôde can also be read Kara, thus giving -- > Karate 唐手. In the latter case it would have been shown through the Furigana から in the text to let the reader know of the pronunciation.

Did anyone check the original and can tell that it really was Karate 空手? (It's not that I doubt it)

And what was his explanation of using the new ideograms? Did he use them throughout the text?
http://www.quastl.de/shisa.jpg

Rob Alvelais
12th January 2004, 15:01
Andreas,

From Unante, by John Sells.

...Although the term karate ("empty hand") was certainly known by this time it was definitely not commonly so. In fact, one of Itosu's more senior students, Hanashiro Chomo, had already written a book called Karate Shoshu Hen. This was the first public reference to karate as "Empty Hand".

The footnote for Karate Shoshu Hen in Mr. Sells' book indicates that it was also known as Karate Kumite and was published in August 1905.


Rob



Originally posted by Shikiyanaka
Guten Tag Gene,

does it mean that it was written Karate 空手? I ask because the Tô of Tôde can also be read Kara, thus giving -- > Karate 唐手. In the latter case it would have been shown through the Furigana から in the text to let the reader know of the pronunciation.

Did anyone check the original and can tell that it really was Karate 空手? (It's not that I doubt it)

And what was his explanation of using the new ideograms? Did he use them throughout the text?
http://www.quastl.de/shisa.jpg

Shikiyanaka
12th January 2004, 15:39
Hello Rob,


This was the first public reference to karate as "Empty Hand".

this makes it clear, because the "empty" Kara character of course is the new one...

Shikiyanaka
23rd January 2004, 10:54
Hi Indrid,

I am a karate fan, and I also train. I wonder if the differences claimed between Okinawan and Japanese karate are bearing some kind of discriminative character. Just some thoughts...


The original kanji meant "Tang" to signify its Chinese roots (we all know this). Karate as it is understood nowadays was a Japanese term that steered clear of any "Sino" references.

I remember it were the Okinawans who chose to change the term in order to be able to promote the art better in Japan proper. :) They wanted to spread it in Japan. They accepted opening a branch of Butokukai. They took up the Dan/Kyû system and Japanese titles. And they are Japanese: Okinawans voted for being returned to Japan in the 1970s. When Okinawans saw the Japanese spread the art around the world this caused them to demand their piece of cake. That's ok...

All the Okinawan and most Japanese styles have lineages leading back to the same sources. And they all have one thing in common: they all believe they are the best. They styles are found in Japanese Bugei lexica, were the discription of Karate says that it stems from Tôde, that's all.

Okinawans went to USA were they do the same thing the Japanese did 30 years ago. It is about having good sales managment abilities, and most important, some historical authentification which shines back on the potential students: in theses days of the "rule of lineage" (Japanese are world-champions in lienages) this seems to be very important, if not the crucial point; "you do karate, hah! And can you trace your lineage back to Wanshû, Kusanku, Waizhinzan, Ryukyu Ko, Feng Zuishi, etc. pp? If not, fall down on your knees and pray for mercy, you unauthentic amateur." ;)

And as there are so many a people who actually can trace their lineage back in this way or another, one has to indulge in details. Its like selling assurances and often has a highly discriminative character... I guess there are quite a lot of guys who only recently have been gentled by some Okinawan stylists, and now pick on everything Japanese, always their now authentic lineage in their guard. I am sure Okinawans are quite aware of how this argument of how such a lineage may attracts people, who themselves are quite aware what "weapon" is giving to them.

The funny thing is that in all this confusion who's right and who's wrong everyone seems to seek liberation by being appointed king by themselves.

Blackwood
27th January 2004, 02:43
"After all, many Americans still believe that Volkswagen are handcrafted by dwarfs in the Schwarzwald." A German technical supervisor in the VW-factory in New Stanton/USA.

But they are! There or in Mexico or Brazil. They don't make them in the US anymore. Haven't for many years.

(I work at the VW of America HQ)

Shikiyanaka
27th January 2004, 08:13
There or in Mexico or Brazil.

What? Handcrafted by dwarfs??? :cool:

Are the dwarfs only in the Schwarzwald or also in Mexico and Brazil???

Shikiyanaka
27th January 2004, 08:34
(I only ask because I will fix the citation, and give reference to you, if this is ok. Thank you.)

Old Dragon
4th February 2004, 08:20
For the original kangi of the word karate and the history surrounding the change to "empty hand" read funakoshi's books.

My understanding is that Funakoshi changed the kangi to read empty hand as someone said to introduce it to the japanese. It was in the 1920's I beleive when Funakoshi first began teaching in japan. Prior to that the japanese had no karate, at least this is what I have read. Karate is an okinawa art. the japanese had kempo, judo, ju jitsu but not something that was a combination of hand and feet striking techniques as the base.

The comment about Ryu Kyu and what it means to the karate world was correct, it refers to the Ryu Kyu Archapelago, or the group of islands that make it up, one of which is okinawa.

The okinawans gained experience in the martial arts from many sources because of their location and availability to the "trade" routes in the 17th and 18th century. My understanding is that it was originally refered to as Chinese hands because that is where it had originated or at least the concepts and techniques that people had brought to the island. Okinawa karate is reported to be White crane boxing related and Chinese boxing. I have no definition as to what the difference is between the two.

I have also seen versions of Samshin, the version I saw was almost to a tee, Uechi Ryu Sanchin. I think the thing here is that I have read theories for 20 years as to this connection, I beleive that people may have altered original kata that resembled each other to make the truth verifiable. I'm not sure But it seems over the years Samshin and Sanchin (Miyagi version) have come to resemble each other more and more.

Now maybe someone can help me put a little history here in perspective. I have heard that Miyagi developed his sanchin based on moving in one direction was easier to do the conditioning exercises and checks, now known as the testing procedure and I have also heard that he was taught that version by his teacher. I have also been told that the version that moves in several directions was actually the first version.......... now if that is true the version i have seen that resembles uechi ryu is a fake...... because this version is supposed to have been practiced in China prior to Miyagi?


Anyone got any history on this?

Old Dragon
5th February 2004, 00:55
So I was thinking of this dicussion today and came across this.

I hope I am not infringing on a copyright here but I only found a hard copy so I am going to paste it.


Sanchin by Harry Cook
Okinawan karate can be divided into two basic types: Shuri-te, Shorin Ryu and Naha-te, Goju Ryu and Uechi Ryu. Of the kata taught in both Naha-te systems there is no doubt that Sanchin (Three Battles) is considered to be the most important. Teachers from both styles continuously stress that, in Kanbun Uechi's words, all is in Sanchin.
Historical Background China
Both Naha-te styles have their roots in Chinese boxing methods, specifically in the systems to be found in Fukien and Kwantung provinces. A number of Fukien styles use one form or another of Sanchin, the best known being the Five Ancestors Boxing (Wu Tsu Ch'uan), White Crane (Pai Hou Ch'uan), and Tiger Boxing (Hu Ch'uan).
Wu Tsu Chíuan was created by Ts'ai Yu Ming (often known by the southern Chinese reading of his name Chua Giok Beng). He was born in a small village near the town of Ch'uan-chou in Fukien province in the middle of the nineteenth century (1853 or 1860: the sources do not agree), into a wealthy family involved in the manufacture of sauces. Although he had to work in the family business he had sufficient wealth and time to devote to the study of the martial arts. His first teacher was Ho Yang from Honan province. After Ho Yangís death, Tsíai Yu Ming spent ten years studying a wide range of different styles as well as gaining some knowledge in traditional Chinese medicine. He combined elements of five other styles (hence the name Five Ancestors) to create his own method. From his teacher Ho Yang he learned a system of Shaolin boxing, probably Lohan Ch'uan, and to this he added elements from T'ai Tsu Ch'uan (Great Ancestor Boxing), Pai Hou (White Crane), Ta Mo Ch'uan (Bodhidharma Boxing), and Tai Sheng Chíuan (Monkey Boxing). He also added various weapons to his art, including the staff and sai. It seems likely that the version of Sanchin practised by the Wu Tsu Ch'uan boxers was taken from Fukien White Crane.
Ts'ai Yu Ming opened a school in his village to teach his art. The school was known as the Jen I Tíang (Hall of Virtue and Righteousness). Over the door hung a sign inviting students to enter to Study the method of Sanchan) or Three Battles (better known by the Japanese reading, Sanchin)


Guy Power MA is a retired U.S. army officer who has served in Europe and Japan where he became a student of Taizaburo Nakamara and subsequently his representative in the U.S. Guy currently lives in San Jose California works where he helps manage a large government installation. His work of the ban on martial arts by American authorities after WWII is being published in its entirety in issues #13 - #16 of Dragon Times



Mike O'Leary (Harry Cook is a well known practioner and writer in the martial arts. )

chizikunbo
14th February 2004, 21:50
Originally posted by Shikiyanaka



Does Okinawa Karate belong to "Ryukyuan Unarmed Martial Arts" or to "Karate."


I would say it depends on which style you are talking about, for instance I would put Shotokan in Karate, Shuri-Te in Ryukyuan Unarmed Martial Arts;)

Old Dragon
14th February 2004, 22:47
Shotokan is Japanese and threre for not Okinawan, You must understand that from a Karate Historical background Only Okinawan karate would be considered Ryu Kyu.


mike O'Leary