MSR Gyaku Inyo Shintai & MJER Yaegaki Ura

[Tim Mailloux]

I have been taught the MSR waza Gyaku Inyo Shintai (MJER Yaegaki Ura) slightly different by two different MSR teachers. I am just curious how some of the E-Budo MSR & MJER practitioners do this technique.

There is only one difference between the two different ways I have been taught this waza. After the first half of the technique, after you perform the first noto and return to tatehiza. You opponent makes a last ditch effort to cut you. His target is your right leg. You quickly perform nukitsuki and parry his blow to your leg. Then you finish him off for good.

Mune version: Draw the blade, when it clears the saya you drop the tip towards the ground (The edge should be facing your left) and in one fluid motion you cut across your body parrying your enemies strike to your right leg with the spine of the blade.

Shinogi versoin: Draw the blade, when it clears the saya you bring your right hand just to the right and slightly above your right knee. The tip of the sword is about 2 feet infront of your right foot pointed towards the ground & the spine of the blade is facing the ground and the edge is pointed up. You receive the strike with the side of your blade.

My question to those out there is do you use the mune or the shinogi of your blade to parry the blow? Like I said earlier I have been taught both ways and have always been curious about this.

[Aozora]

The parrying move you're talking about is called sunegakoi... I was taught that it's done by simply letting the sword fall and putting a little "oomph" into the "slap."

The position the sword winds up in is slightly angled, so that the mune takes the brunt of it first. Just my two cents...

[A. Bakken]

Shinogi.

[Tim Mailloux]

Originally posted by Aozora
The parrying move you're talking about is called sunegakoi... I was taught that it's done by simply letting the sword fall and putting a little "oomph" into the "slap."

The position the sword winds up in is slightly angled, so that the mune takes the brunt of it first. Just my two cents...

Your profile states that you train MJER and you parry with the mune.

So we have one for mune (MJER guy)
and one with shinogi (MSR guy)

I wonder if the break down with remain consistant between the MSR & MJER guys. The odd thing is that the two teachers who taught me this technique two differnt ways were both students of T. Mitsuzuka sensei at the same time.

[Ralutin]

Hi,

My fellow students and I practice MSR and we are taught to parry with the shinogi.

[Earl Hartman]

In his book MJER Iai Heiho Chi no Maki (Earth Book of MJER Iai Heiho) Masaoka S. writes that the target of the enemy is not she shin but the right (leading) shoulder. The enemy is cutting kesa at you, so as you move backward to avoid the cut, you draw the sword and allow the cut to slide down the outside of the blade (if you just moved your upper body out of the way, the cut would wind up missng your shoulder but cutting you in your leading leg, which is still within range).

There are, of course, many variations depending on where the enemy is striking, and in his book Masaoka S. discusses many of the kaewaza to the basic technique. I assume that the outside of the shin is one possibility.

[Erik Tracy]

Hi Earl,
In our ryu-ha of MJER we have two versions of yaegaki:
1)omote - which has the 'block' after the first kirioroshi/noto
2) ura - which has a second standing nukitsuke after the first kirioroshi/noto instead of the block.

So, maybe I'm remembering this wrong but shouldn't the MJER comparison to MSR be for yaegaki omote, not ura?

For the omote variation, as you have described, did Masaoka S. describe the bunkai?

Assuming that you have completed the first kirioroshi on 'uke' (and he is now 'cutdown' - prone), what would allow him to return attack with kesa?

Thanks,
Erik Tracy

Oops - forgot to add that we are taught to do the variation for the block with the whole shinogi-ji, not just the shinogi.

[Earl Hartman]

As I said, this is just one version that Masaoka S. gave. I'm not sure that you necessarily have to assume that the enemy is prone. Of course, regardless of the position of the enemy, I always wonderd why you would put your sword away before you knew the guy was dead. I've always looked at Yaegaki as a general approach to the "Well-what-would-you-do-if-you-thought-he-was-dead-and-then-he-attacked-you-after-you-had-resheathed-your-sword"? problem. The "standard" version is just one possibility. Masaoka S. gives kaewaza for a cut to the left hand or to the other leg also.

Of course, if the assumption is that he's prone, what's the point of doing another standard nukitsuke after the first noto? (I have seen this version also, but always assumed it was a MSR thing, since we didn't do it.) What are you cutting at if the guy is supposedly face down on the floor?

[Erik Tracy]

Our bunkai describes 'uke' as prone after the first kirioroshi, and his last effort is to return an attack to the shin/leg/general right side lower area.

The block for yaegaki omote is followed by the second kirioroshi to his exposed back/spine.

No right or wrong implied, just curious about the bunkai and various kaewaza.

Thanks,
Erik

[ulvulv]

Originally posted by Earl Hartman
As I said, this is just one version that Masaoka S. gave. I'm not sure that you necessarily have to assume that the enemy is prone. Of course, regardless of the position of the enemy, I always wonderd why you would put your sword away before you knew the guy was dead. I've always looked at Yaegaki as a general approach to the "Well-what-would-you-do-if-you-thought-he-was-dead-and-then-he-attacked-you-after-you-had-resheathed-your-sword"? problem. The "standard" version is just one possibility. Masaoka S. gives kaewaza for a cut to the left hand or to the other leg also.

Of course, if the assumption is that he's prone, what's the point of doing another standard nukitsuke after the first noto? (I have seen this version also, but always assumed it was a MSR thing, since we didn't do it.) What are you cutting at if the guy is supposedly face down on the floor?

His buddy, I have been told, who rushes in for revenge

[Iron Chef]

Originally posted by Earl Hartman
As I said, this is just one version that Masaoka S. gave. I'm not sure that you necessarily have to assume that the enemy is prone. Of course, regardless of the position of the enemy, I always wonderd why you would put your sword away before you knew the guy was dead. I've always looked at Yaegaki as a general approach to the "Well-what-would-you-do-if-you-thought-he-was-dead-and-then-he-attacked-you-after-you-had-resheathed-your-sword"? problem. The "standard" version is just one possibility. Masaoka S. gives kaewaza for a cut to the left hand or to the other leg also.

Of course, if the assumption is that he's prone, what's the point of doing another standard nukitsuke after the first noto? (I have seen this version also, but always assumed it was a MSR thing, since we didn't do it.) What are you cutting at if the guy is supposedly face down on the floor?

I think it is all just excuses to practice some technically challenging moves. :laugh:

Like Sodome! There you draw your weapon 3 times. I'm like Mr. Hartman. I mean if it is fight why are we so quick to put the sword away anyhow? What Sodome does teach us is how to do a very awkward and difficult series of movements and I think this is probably very beneficial to our swordwork. The main thing it teaches is that Ed really really sucks at performing Sodome.

[Andy Watson]

I would absolutely agree with Ed here. A lot of the kata have very little practical explanation other than teaching us the core sword skills.

However, regarding Gyaku Inyo Shintai in MSR in our little division in Europe we block with the shinogi/shinogiji.

One interesting thing our teacher showed us is that this technique will rarely work if you pre-empt the attack and place the sword there as a "blocker", the opponent will crash right through it. The only way to successfully "block" is to meet the opponent's sword and beat it off.

[Earl Hartman]

Ummmmm.......**koff, koff**

Ahem.

"Beat off the opponent's sword"?

Yeah, I guess that would work.

Now I know why they call in "Inyo Shintai"


:D

[kruger]

Please count me in the "MSR student using the shinogi" column.

Mark Kruger

[Andy Watson]

Earl

What would be your interpretation as to how this technique works then?

[Earl Hartman]

It's a JOKE, Andy.

[Andy Watson]

What my technique or your statement?

Us Brits don't understand humour, please remember!

:kiss:

[Earl Hartman]

What I said was a joke, Andy. Didn't you see all the smiley faces?

I have heard that Brits don't have sex ("No Sex, Please, We're British", etc.) but the "Brits don't understand humor" thing is news to me. Quick, somebody tell Monty Python!

Now, let's move on, or I will have to taunt you a second time.

[Chidokan]

Andy's a southern pooftah, so you have to make allowances...:D
I use the edge if I interpret tekki being fast and me slow,otherwise...
From my notes...some people may use my kae waza as their main waza...
As tekki attempts to cut your right knee/shin continue the left foot back, stand on the spot drawing the sword forward, and only very slightly down. With the sword half to 3/4 drawn move the left foot to the rear accelerating the draw of the sword. Explode the sword from the saya to begin the parry, the hips should still be square but the left foot should be travelling backwards. When the sword is just about to start the parry pull the left hip back, hence the left foot points out at about 45 degrees and left leg straight. At the same time drive the hara forward, forcing the right knee to bend forward. The feeling should be one of driving back the attack. The parry is about straight, about 8 to 10 inches forward, at about monouchi position on the junction of the mune with the upper surface (shinogi ji) of the blade. The tanden should be forward, shoulders should be well back, DO NOT LEAN THE UPPER BODY FORWARD. There should be a line from your centre, through your right knee and on to the monouchi of your sword. The pressure should be forward at tekki.
Do not stop, square the hips driving the left knee down to the right foot, forcing the sword forward, and hence tekki’s sword back. The feeling is of pushing the sword away with the twist of the hips. Without stopping at this position sweep the sword to the left and up in a feeling of uke nagashi, making sure the right hand does not cross the centre line. Drive the body under the rising sword. Keep an upright posture, Do Not settle down onto the heels at this point.
As you pick up the tsuka with the left hand extend the right foot, drive the hara forward and perform a strong, but calm, kiritsuke. There is no real need to let the kissaki drop too far below horizontal unless you “see” tekki as being flat on the floor.
Complete the form as in Mae.

Kae Waza 1 - Shimamura Ha

SUNE GAKOI (Shin Guard)

Start as in normal yae gaki, do nukitsuke, kirioroshi, yoko-chiburui and partial noto, i.e. to the end of 6 above. You can also do the nukitsuke with the left knee 2 to 4 inches off the floor to make a difference between the two branches of the school.
This time you can also step through with the left foot keeping the same height, pushing off the back foot. The kiritsuke can be done with the right knee just 1 inch off the floor, on completion of kirioroshi allow the right knee to settle on the floor.
Instead of parrying an attack to your shin (as in 7 above) visualise another opponent attacking and perform a nukitsuke forward as you draw the left foot back. This should be a normal nukitsuke, hence no need for any great migi hanmi. Keep the left knee 3 to 6 inches off the floor. Cut forward as you step back, NOT after having stepped back. The hara must still be pressing forward.
Drive the left knee to the right foot bringing the sword through furi kamuri, extend the right foot forward and perform the normal kiritsuke driving forward with the hara so that the right knee is forward of the right knee.
Finish as above.

Kae Waza 2 - Tanimura Ha

Start as in normal Yae Gaki, do nukitsuke, kirioroshi, yoko-chiburui and partial noto, i.e. to the end of 6 for the standard form. In this case keep the left knee on the floor for the initial nukitsuke as standard in Tanimura-Ha.
Beginners stand up fully when stepping through with the left to do the standard kirioroshi. Seniors step through quickly and low.
Instead of parrying an attack to your shin (as in 7 for the standard form) visualise another opponent coming in behind the first attacker, or the attacker making off. To start with dropping the left knee to the floor and step the right foot well forward performing a normal nukitsuke, driving the hara forward. The left knee can remain on the floor. This is done if tekki is close (or you are very quick). The left knee can also be 3 to 6 inches off the floor as you cut nukitsuke to give you further reach, or if tekki is retreating. As you get better at this you will simply be able to drive through from the crouched posture at the end of the partial noto and hence go straight into the nukitsuke without dropping the knee. This should be a normal nukitsuke, hence no need for any great migi hanmi.
Drive the left knee to the right foot bringing the sword through furi kamuri, extend the right foot forward and perform a standard kiritsuke.
Finish as above.
This will either kill the thread or get people talking!!:D :D

[Andy Watson]

Tim

Northern b*st*rd!

Earl

Your father was a hamster and your mother smelled of elderberries!

No offence taken.

[Andy Watson]

Earl

A certain Jigme from the colonies has kindly explained to me what your joke was referring to.

Now I get it!

:idea:

Sorry, the long dark winters here make us a bit slow.

[ulvulv]

heavy on the coffee, mr hamilton? ;)
there are subtle indications on speedy typing:

"with the hara so that the right knee is forward of the right knee."
hehe

After reading trough the first part a couple of times, I slowly came to the realization that it is how I actually do the kata! even though I am in the mmmsrrrr- category, and not myeeeer. The kaewasa as well, but when I "pull myself" into the final kirioroshi in stead of cutting from the spot where I "land" after the parry, i dont let my right knee remain forward of the right FOOT, I adjust the foot to the usual position, 90 degree knee/ankle.

how is your book progressing? Will it be only for the inner circle, or are you going to earn zillions of punds, spreading it to the masses?

[Chidokan]

Neil and I have finished the first draft(the bit I posted was from his seiza no bu section so he takes the rap for speedy typing!;)should say ankle..) We split it between us, and have added some training exercises, a history, some other relevant sections on choosing kit, etiquette etc (no more which sword questions on E-Budo???...dream on!) The hard part has been deciding who to aim the book at, initially it started as a collection of notes because my memory is crap, then it changed to our club only, now we intend to put it on general release. A friend on Kendo World magazine has offered to publish, and having seen their other books I am happy to go with that. Any money made will go to the club for...more seminars! Its been a real challenge, made me ask a lot of questions I'd not thought of before, and it has dawned on me why so many MA books are full of photos! I'd recommend writing a book for anyone, it really makes you look hard at what you do. When the final draft is ready, we are sending it off to Japan for checking (and to give Iwata sensei a good laugh...:rolleyes: )
Should be finished towards the end of the year.

By the way, can anyone recommend a good computer translation bit of software? I have been given a copy of a book by Mori Shigeki sensei and would like to read it!

[ScottUK]

MJER Yaegaki - shinogi...

Couldn't be arsed (or not that well-read) to write a Tim-esque essay... :D

[Gene Gabel]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tim Mailloux
I have been taught the MSR waza Gyaku Inyo Shintai (MJER Yaegaki Ura) slightly different by two different MSR teachers. I am just curious how some of the E-Budo MSR & MJER practitioners do this technique.
Mune version: Draw the blade, when it clears the saya you drop the tip towards the ground (The edge should be facing your left) and in one fluid motion you cut across your body parrying your enemies strike to your right leg with the spine of the blade.
My question to those out there is do you use the mune or the shinogi of your blade to parry the blow? Like I said earlier I have been taught both ways and have always been curious about this. [/QUOTE
..............................................

Hi Tim,
MJER Iaijutsu under Miura Hanshi/Shimabukuro Shihan uses the mune in yaegaki omote.

Gene Gabel

[ulvulv]

He`s trying to cut you right shin! Block it, goddammit, and cut the bugger in two!!!

[Chidokan]

You can always resharpen a blade or buy a new one..growing a new leg however, may prove to be a bit of a challenge.:eek:

[Ric Flinn]

I'm an MSR guy, and we block with the shinogi, yadda yadda.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned but I'm curious about. I was taught that the initial part of the draw for this kata (the second draw, for the block), the intention to block should be concealed until the last moment, so it looks like a regular nukitsuke up until you're dropping the tip towards your foot. The right hand grip must then switch from kirite to the proper grip for the block. Is that common for MSR and/or MJER?