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SMJodo
16th January 2004, 20:27
that I would be minus an arm or a leg in about a second if I ever had to face a sword expert with my Jo. It seems as though the "scripted" kata only prepare you for an encounter such as this to a certain degree. I almost wish Jodo had some sort of Kendo-like qualities to make it more practical in a combat setting. Does anyone else feel like this?

everest
16th January 2004, 20:56
i'm relatively new to smr jo ...so i'm speaking of my past training experience as it applies to jo or any other martial art. it sounds painfully simple but trust your training.the koryu arts were derived from life or death engagements over hundreds of years in some cases.the very techniques and "static" kata are the key for understanding distancing, timing and tactics. over time (years) you'll see your able to respond automatically to an opponents moves. example in the middle of a kata ,the swordsmen switches to another.i think you'll be surprised at the result.
as far as surviving against a expert swordsmen,well the best you can hope for is ai-uchi, mutual death,so make sure yor life insurance is paid up!
i'm sure practitioners with far more experience will voice their ideas. keep training!
scott altland
itten dojo

Nsherrard
17th January 2004, 02:25
"as far as surviving against a expert swordsmen,well the best you can hope for is ai-uchi, mutual death,so make sure yor life insurance is paid up!"

Everest,
I agree with your points about kata, but I'm mystified by the above statement. If it were true, Jo would be pretty worthless, wouldn't it? Or are you implying that it is an art meant only to deal with unskilled swordsmen? Sure, Jo as most people practice today would get them killed mighty quick by anyone with a three foot razor blade. Is that because Jo is a flimsy art, or because most people go to class once a week for an hour or two, and are often training in seitei rather than koryu? Even if they are training in koryu jo, how many are practicing with someone who's really superb on a regular basis? Believe me, I've seen demonstrations of skill in jo that are absolutely mind-boggling.

SMJodo,
You think that putting on armor and using bamboo weapons will increase the efficacy of the art? That's what Kendo does, and most Kendo practitioners will tell you it is not classical Japanese swordsmanship. Classical ryu that teach traditional kenjutsu ALL rely on kata, every single one. I haven't seen the Last Samurai yet, but from what I understand, all the sword in the movie is based on Kendo, making it a far from realistic portrayal of real sword combat. Additionally, it's a movie! Saying "I would be minus an arm or a leg in about a second if I ever had to face a sword expert with my Jo" after seeing TLS is like saying "wow, why doesn't Jackie Chan enter the UFC and kick everyone's !!!?" after seeing Police Story 2. Good grief.

gmlc123
17th January 2004, 02:50
Haven't seen the flick yet.. so wasn't sure if you're referring to one-on-one encounters or battlefield stuff?

Also keep in mind the way we do Kata now is not the way it was done 300-400 hundred years ago. Kuritsuke series are simple example, keiko and application are not the same thing.

At last weekends seminar, Nishioka Sensei again pointed out to all beginners.. "it's best to just run away (with the jo). But if you get cornered and have no choice. Then at least you have a chance!" :)

Below is a post from another forum (maybe relevant).. that you may find interesting or take with a grain of salt. In context, it was over the use of the Jo as a battlefield weapon.



Just to qualify my comment or moreover, opinion only, on Jo for battlefield combat.

By saying that I'm not suggesting it wasn't used combatively, rather that it's unlikely to be the preferred weapon of choice for a battlefield where there are multiple enemies or co-ordinated attackers.

Traditionally, the weapons of choice for battlefield conditions are the sword, yari, bo and others.. for obvious reasons. I certainly wouldn't opt for a Jo in a battlefield situation against armor clad enemy with Yari or Sword...

However, in the context of Japan in the early 1600s wherein Samurai where wandering the country testing their skills, and the style of swordmanship changes from kenjutsu (sword drawn and ready b4 attack- agreeably) to iaijutsu (draw and cut - read more on Tosa warriors and Shikoku around that time) to defend one's self from a surprise attackers... the Jo is born. In an era where this sort of thing is starting to become common, I suspect.

If Shikoku in the 1600/1700/1800s is anything to go by then Kyushu wouldn't be that different I'd expect... and the Jo was the Kuroda-han's secret weapon of defence against one-on-one attacks whilst travelling about, after all it was the exclusive weapon of the ashigari (foot-solders).

Disguised as a simple aid for walking from an attackers perspective, the Jo assumes the strategy of invisibility in Kamae to surprise an unexpecting attacker with an immediate counter-attack. So in that way it is a true combative weapon, and moreover where I maybe prepared to use a Jo in a defensive situation only.. but it certainly isn't on a battlefield.

Again, just my personal opinion.. nothing more. I'm sure others are bound to disagree ;)
Greg:)

everest
17th January 2004, 02:54
the "mutual death" comment was tongue in cheek. the point was to keep training ,listen to your instructor and seniors and not dwell on the endless array of "what ifs?". training will take care of things. the skills learned will work or none of us would bother training in our various koryu .and as above seeing those highly skilled practitioners should inspire you train that much harder.

scott altland
itten dojo

SMJodo
17th January 2004, 03:05
Nathan,

I know what you're saying about the movie being just a movie - but it made me start to doubt the utility of the art. I don't like it any less and it's not that I mind doing kata, but I wonder if Muso Gonoske could have stood on his own with just kata.

Granted, my skill level might have something to do with me being a little skeptical also. For the most part, I train for about 1 1/2 hrs one day a week in class and maybe an hour or two during the week.

I don't want to put on armor and start bashing things, but I think there's something to be said for some type of "free sparring" where the techniques are not scripted.


I know this is a departure from the traditional school, but I was trying to think of ways that would kind of take things to the next level as far as being effective/practical.

everest
17th January 2004, 03:27
i trained in "sparring" type of arts in the past before switching over to bujinkan and recently msr jo. in sparring you wear protective gear to prevent injury or worse...the same applies to kendo.with the sense of immenent danger removed it changes not only your application of technique but tactics as well.not to mention without the fear of any real harm from a jo or bokken impacting on various body parts ,you move differently. to remove that factor of the equation you lose part of the essence of what your trying to learn..not just techniques...but to remain calm in the heat of an exchange.this could be in training,everyday life or hopefully not..combat.
also you need to look at the techniques being used.for example using a bokken that implied strike to the hand would take the hand off.its impossible to use these types of things in sparring without changing the entire dynamics of the art.in my opinion changing these arts as you suggest is why so many arts are a shell of what they were or are extinct altogether.
its not wrong to wonder about such things but don't let it discourage you or allow to be swayed from the path.
anyways ,thats my newbie 2 cents!
scott altland
itten dojo
ps. my suggestion is log onto koryu.com and pick up meik and diane skoss's 3 books on koryu.will answer many ?.

gmlc123
17th January 2004, 04:05
Too dangerous... :eek:

Re: Gonosuke.. you're forgetting he was a master at Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu before he created the art. The comparison is just not valid to us in modern times.

Just keep training, and do some reading on Shu-Ha-Ri too.. the free sparring thoughts or practice will do nothing for you at your present level anyway. Probably, make you just put the stick down ;) so forget about its effectiveness for now. It doesn't matter, just find a teacher that will help lift your level, if you desire so.



Originally posted by SMJodo
I don't want to put on armor and start bashing things, but I think there's something to be said for some type of "free sparring" where the techniques are not scripted.


I know this is a departure from the traditional school, but I was trying to think of ways that would kind of take things to the next level as far as being effective/practical.

SMJodo
17th January 2004, 05:05
Thanks Guys - Just thinking aloud, but I really appreciate the perspective. I know I really can't compare myself or anyone else from the modern era to Gonnoske. I guess I've been thinking about the practicality of the Jo lately and losing a little focus.

I've just gotten into the forums recently and really enjoyed bouncing ideas and questions off more experienced practitioners. It helps put things in perspective sometimes.

I've also been thinking of picking up iaido sometime in the next year or so and possibly Tameshigiri (sp?). I thought the sword work would improve my jo technique as well as allow me to expand by Budo knowledge. Plus, I think it would be really cool to actually cut one of those mats eventually. :p :) Just rambling..........

szczepan
17th January 2004, 16:20
First of all, you must practice EVERY DAY. It can be 30 minutes, 1 hour...as you can, but every day.Otherwise you will NEVER, never get high level of jo practice.

You can practice, at your present level, some simple drills with partner. Establish 3 levels of target: jodan, chudan, gedan ex: head, wrist, knee. Then, ask your partner to hit each level slowly, in prearranged order. You do simple block.
Once you get a rythme, and you feel really easy in that, reorganise new order. Again practice slowly. This way you can learn very many combinations on different levels.
After that, increase speed, still preserving prearranged order.Do all previous combination with increased speed.
After that, ask partner to hit you in random order in two levels very slowly. Once you feel good, add third level.
When you fell comfortable, increase speed, but very progresivly.
When you feel comfortable, add tsuki as new kind od attack....affter, you can add other kind of attack.....After ask your partner get a bokken and repeat all from beginning....

This is a way how to developpe good skills without any artificial protection in safe way. And you prepare yourself to free practice against any weapon, sword included.

Nsherrard
18th January 2004, 03:13
Sorry, Everest, I didn't catch the joke. SMJodo, my point about the movies was that anything can be made to look incredibly effective and deadly. They could make a movie about some guy with a jo taking out all these guys with swords, and some sword guy might say "holy crap, this sword stuff sure seems pretty useless against a jo!" I'm just saying that a movie, when it cames to martial arts, has no bearing on anything related to reality. Now, if you were practicing jo with somebody, and they started doing unexpected things with the bokken and you realized that you would have been chopped into little bits if it had been a real sword, and from THAT you began to doubt your art, well, I think everyone goes through a little of that. It just got to me that you drew this conclusion from seeing a movie. Putting on armor and doing a bit of free-play might be fun, but if you incorporate it into regular training, especially as a beginner, you run into the problems raised by Everest. In fact, in the long run it will make your technique less "combat-effective", just the thing you were trying to avoid in the first place. All the realism you crave is in the kata, but YOU have to be good enough, and have a partner who's good enough, to make them real. If you feel the same way about your jo in twenty years as you do now, THEN you have a problem. By the way, I assume Gunosuke had something none of us will ever have: actual experience against a real sword. I imagine he knew what he was doing.

SMJodo
18th January 2004, 04:28
Good points, but finding a good partner is hard to do. I have nobody to practice with at home, so I do some basics and kata. I suppose that if I "got creative" with practicing different techniques (which I have done to some extent) it would help.

Please don't get the impression that the movie has me doubting the art - it got me thinking about my skill, dedication, and training methods. I have no doubt that the art has merit and I don't question the vailidity of traditional training. I guess it got me wondering if there was anything else I could do to make it more effective, but I suppose that I knew the answer all along - train harder.

Since I rarely see sword techniques outside of class, the movie kind of humbled me a little. Even though I know it's not real, I started thinking how good a real samurai would have to be just to survive.

I really appreciate the input. I really don't know anyone (outside of the dojo) to discuss this stuff with, and it gives me more motivation to be better. Thanks.

Nsherrard
18th January 2004, 09:41
It is interesting to go up against sword technique from another style. I have found that Jo technique usually works great the first time, and then the swordsman can revise his own technique to make things more and more difficult. I guess this is why Japanese classical ryu tended to be so secretive. So, don't go showing those other sword stylists too much Jo! ;)

SMJodo
19th January 2004, 02:49
Nathan,

Don't worry - it's hard enough to find someone to practice with, let alone someone who knows what they're doing with a sword. I have to recruit some of the neighbors or something.......

gmlc123
19th January 2004, 02:53
FYI

http://www.koryubooks.com/library/tnishioka1.html

Jack B
19th January 2004, 16:33
An intermediate senior Jodoka I know had a visit from a fellow who said he studied Katori Shinto Ryu. They worked a little jo with KSR guy on sword. From the Hissage trap, KSR guy kind of twirled his wrists and rotated the bokken right out of the trap. Jo guy though, well, I can pop him in the face with the jo. Then playing with it, he realized he could just follow the twisting motion into the reverse trap a la Ranai on the other side, as KSR guy lifted his wrists. It just sort of happened.

Remember that the beginning katas (omote) are just that. They are to teach you proper use of the stick and kamae. They are not complete fighting techniques themselves. That's why there are another 5 sets of kata to learn. The beginning techniques are good stuff, and *can* work, but you can't judge a system from the introductory material.

Ian Christie
19th January 2004, 21:54
First and foremost, I must point out the fact that I have not even begun training in SMR Jo and so my following words are only backed up by some observation and a good bit of reading. (And of course, my obnoxious personal views:))


Originally posted by SMJodo
I guess I've been thinking about the practicality of the Jo lately and losing a little focus.


I personally believe that when one begins to think about the "practicality" of the art which he/she is practicing, one begins to muddle the reasons behind training. If you're concerned with practicality, there is an incredible amount of valuable modern budo from which to choose. Personally, however, I don't plan to be defending myself outside the dojo. I realize though, that SMR Jo seems to be more pragmatic, given the wide array of objects one can substitute for the Jo.

I think it's fine to think about the contextual practicality, but it should remain as such. In fact, one must never lose sight of the fact that the koryu were all combative, military, killing arts. But you can't try to apply 1500's practicality to 21st century practicality. I think the best thing one can do is strive for contextual practicality in the kata.

Mr. Wolfe was attempting to explain a facet of this to me a few days ago. He was explaining that each kata was not a "story" of sorts but each strike an incapacitating blow. I'm not Mr. Wolfe (and certainly not even remotely qualified to talk with authority on the specifics of the art), so I'm not going to attempt to explain further due to the fact that my ignorance will muddle the explanation. But I think basically, each strike is a fight in itself. So in terms of practicality, applying even a basic strike has the ability to end the conflict.

As far as sparring? I'm sure that walking down a city street about the time for "last call" with a five foot stick might offer some opportunity, though I'm neither advocating that of advising it ;)

Keep training, that's all one can do....

Ian

gmlc123
20th January 2004, 01:06
Each kata set has a purpose. Omote teaches beginners to work on the outside limits of ma-ai. Chudan teaches them to hold their ground and work inside and outside of ma-ai. Kage teaches how to work well within the ma-ai. ie. shadow. That's my understanding of the kata sets purpose, the fact it's Omote (ie. front/surface) doesn't mean the individual techniques of the Kata contained therein are less effective than those in the higher kata sets.


Originally posted by Jack B
Remember that the beginning katas (omote) are just that. They are to teach you proper use of the stick and kamae.

shonuff
22nd January 2004, 09:41
To increase the battle effectiveness of your jodo you have to try it out. You need to cross train in submission arts expecially those that teach stick assisted submissions. YOu need to build explosive power and go out there and take on the full contact kali fighters. Problem with most jodo is that it really concentrates too much on the jo. You need to be able to kick and punch when appropriate.

I've been thinking about how effective a metal tube capped at the end to look solid would do. I'm pretty sure a metal sword would not be able to cut a metal staff of stainless without significant damage or complete destruction to the sword itself. A metal tube isn't very heavy. Thinking about something constructed like the body of a maglite with the same semi abrasive handle for grip.

gmlc123
22nd January 2004, 09:59
I thought the Kali bashing thread was a separate one... and we all made our thoughts clear on your post. Why start it all over again here?


Originally posted by shonuff
To increase the battle effectiveness of your jodo you have to try it out. You need to cross train in submission arts expecially those that teach stick assisted submissions. YOu need to build explosive power and go out there and take on the full contact kali fighters. Problem with most jodo is that it really concentrates too much on the jo. You need to be able to kick and punch when appropriate.

I've been thinking about how effective a metal tube capped at the end to look solid would do. I'm pretty sure a metal sword would not be able to cut a metal staff of stainless without significant damage or complete destruction to the sword itself. A metal tube isn't very heavy. Thinking about something constructed like the body of a maglite with the same semi abrasive handle for grip.

ulvulv
22nd January 2004, 12:03
Originally posted by shonuff
Problem with most jodo is that it really concentrates too much on the jo. You need to be able to kick and punch when appropriate.


I do not think you seem experienced enough in jodo to do a correct asessment of the efficiency or lack thereof, of jodo. Many of those who take up a serious study of jodo, have heavy background in unarmed arts, many have been throwing, kicking and punching for years. They find that the unarmed arts are lacking some qualities, that they find in a martial tradition like jodo. An indepth study of the jo as an effective weapon must concentrate a lot on jo. Big surprise.

Brian Owens
22nd January 2004, 13:47
Originally posted by shonuff
...I've been thinking about how effective a metal tube capped at the end to look solid would do...a metal sword would not be able to cut a metal staff of stainless...Thinking about something constructed like the body of a maglite with the same semi abrasive handle for grip.
I'm pretty sure a Spaz-12 loaded with 00 buckshot, or an elecromagnetic railgun with depleted-uranium projectiles would also be pretty effective against a sword.

I think, however, that you're missing the point of training in a koryu bugei.

ulvulv
22nd January 2004, 14:08
Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
I'm pretty sure a Spaz-12 loaded with 00 buckshot, or an elecromagnetic railgun with depleted-uranium projectiles would also be pretty effective against a sword.

I think, however, that you're missing the point of training in a koryu bugei.

I think I saw a statement in a book, about several characteristiscs of bushido. One of the samurai maximes was approximately like this: "You should give your opponent the possibility of becoming a better person. If he does not grip the opportunity, well, let him departure for the next world."
I am sure the railgun you describe would do the trick, and do it well

:D

SMJodo
22nd January 2004, 16:22
I hadn't thought about a full contact contact match with an expert in another stick art - I think you missed my point. I'm really not looking for a UFC match. I was thinking about ways to enhance my own training to make the Jo more effective - not replace the Jo with a steel alloy maglite.

The beauty of the Jo is in it's fluid simplicity - you can strike and block from many positions. If you capped both ends of of a hollow pipe you lose a bunch of manuverability and you probably add size if not weight. Any texture would make the Jo less effective because you don't want the Jo to stick in your hands.

Apparently the subject of Kali has been broached before. I think it would be cool to learn and maybe train with somebody who knew what they were doing - just for fun. I don't think I would go so far as to alter the intent of original art by trying to adapt it to another style.

:)

Jack B
22nd January 2004, 17:09
The Kyushu "policeman" who used Jodo against real live samurai also trained in hand-to-hand systems. I'm sure they saw a lot of opportunities to punch, kick, sweep, throw and grapple. Kaminoda sensei often "treats" seminar participants with sessions of arresting techniques (he did train the Tokyo Metro Riot Squad). Lots of jo techniques are mollified by covering the tip in your fist and delivering a "punch". And I have had a sensei point out that I was standing too close in kuritsuke with blistering ouchi-kouchi-gari attacks. Even koryu do not exist in a vacuum like the Hope diamond. Realistic strategic awareness is central.

That said, where can I get the rail-gun?

shonuff
22nd January 2004, 21:02
Have you seen a maglite and how the end of it is even with the shaft? Looks like one piece. I was thinking of a threaded metal tube with screwed on caps at the end. I don't think it would weigh much. The whole thing would be machined so the hollow pipe with caps on end being the same length as a standard jo.

I went back into the kali because we are talking about increasing the combat effectiveness of the jo. For modern combat it needs to be adapted all forms of MA and you most likely have train in kali and UFC martial arts in order to prepared for a street fight. Kali is one of the most street worthy MAs out there like BJJ. If you can effectively use you jo against a kali fighter then you have pretty much increased the combat effectiveness of your jodo.

Jack B
22nd January 2004, 23:22
Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
I think, however, that you're missing the point of training in a koryu bugei.

ulvulv
23rd January 2004, 00:03
Originally posted by shonuff


I went back into the kali because we are talking about increasing the combat effectiveness of the jo. For modern combat it needs to be adapted all forms of MA and you most likely have train in kali and UFC martial arts in order to prepared for a street fight. Kali is one of the most street worthy MAs out there like BJJ. If you can effectively use you jo against a kali fighter then you have pretty much increased the combat effectiveness of your jodo.

modern poem:

"combat effectiveness
modern combat
streetfight
jodo"

it doesnt rhyme at all.

i suggest you pursue your escrima-path, join a taekwondo group, and go heavy on sugar and coffein. Then you will surely become the menace that you so obviously want to become.

streetfight?
why not try online-swordfighting?:

shonuff
23rd January 2004, 00:27
What's wrong with adapting a 50 inch stick to street fighting?

Tradition jodo will remain traditional jodo. No one is saying aikijo or shindo muso ryu jodo sucks. I'm just saying that if you want to use your jo in full contact or as a modern and combat effective tool then you should expose yourself to many MA.

Maybe someone or a group of jo martial artists can start some modern/gendai system based on the traditional jo. Maybe adapt the jo to grappling and focus more on fighting against kali sticks, knives, different length staves and grapplers instead of the katana.

renfield_kuroda
23rd January 2004, 01:30
There already are 'modern stick' systems. Uchida sensei used his menkyo-kaiden in Shindomusoryu jo and created Uchidaryu tanjo, specifically for the modern, western suit wearing, walking-stick carrying man to defend himself against sword-carrying attackers.
Another example is Toseiryu, adapted from Uchidaryu (among other things), as a practical modern day 'self-defense/street' system for using a long, skinny object to defend against an attacker (who also may have a long,skinny object). For example using your umbrella to defend against an attacker with a bat, or a knife, or a chopstick.

Keep in mind that both Uchidaryu and Toseiryu were created by sensei who first got menkyo-kaiden in a related art.

Regards,

r e n

SMJodo
23rd January 2004, 02:03
I apprecite the input from everyone. I agree that I have ample room to master the finer points of the Jo and I want to stick to the traditional training. I have to admit, however, that experimenting with other arts later on might be interesting. I doubt that I ever will because I really don't know anyone that practices these other arts (Kali, etc), and I can't picture myself active looking for people to have matches with.

Sure, I'd like to take the Jo to another level and experiment with different techniques that might be more practical in a modern setting - but I wouldn't consider altering the weapon or the traditional training. If that's was the case, the it would cease to be Jodo and would defeat the whole point.

If anything, I would "mess around" on my own with some different techniques/training methods just to satisft my own curiosity.

I think there is something wonderful about keeping the arts as traditional as possible, but once the foundation is established, I don't think it hurts dabble and explore a litttle outside the traditional realm. I think most Sensei's have done this to a certain degree, and I like them, don't want to stray too far too early.

gmlc123
23rd January 2004, 02:27
You're entitled to your opinions, but surely two sticks are better than one?

So give up on your personal dreams of adapting the 50" Jo stick and just worry about those Kali sticks.. surely you can modify the Kali sticks to suit your needs nicely. And find another willing Kali participant to test your new found style and skill level against.

In your case, you also seem to have cross-training confused with cross-contamination.



Originally posted by shonuff
What's wrong with adapting a 50 inch stick to street fighting?

Tradition jodo will remain traditional jodo. No one is saying aikijo or shindo muso ryu jodo sucks. I'm just saying that if you want to use your jo in full contact or as a modern and combat effective tool then you should expose yourself to many MA.

Maybe someone or a group of jo martial artists can start some modern/gendai system based on the traditional jo. Maybe adapt the jo to grappling and focus more on fighting against kali sticks, knives, different length staves and grapplers instead of the katana.

gmlc123
23rd January 2004, 02:36
There's enough techniques for you to deal with in SMR, worry about learning and understanding the combative applications to the techniques you're doing or have learnt in SMR. Don't worry about taking the Jo to another level.. your teacher and the Kata will "lift" your level as you advance.

It's a misnoma that you can raise or lift your own level by yourself.


Originally posted by SMJodo
Sure, I'd like to take the Jo to another level and experiment with different techniques that might be more practical in a modern setting - but I wouldn't consider altering the weapon or the traditional training. If that's was the case, the it would cease to be Jodo and would defeat the whole point.

shonuff
23rd January 2004, 03:25
Kali sticks are no jos. I'm talking of creating an ugly and brutal brother to traditional jodo. The jo isn't too long and it isn't too short. It has a longer reach than a kali stick. Gonnosuke invented his jo to fight an opponent who wielded a weapon on each hand. So how about training to fight people with two 2 sticks? It's supposed to be possible.


Japan is not the only country to have systems based of short staves, Kind of sad that people looking for hardcore weapons training often skip japanese weapons. No one is saying they will sell full contact jojutsu training as koryu. It would be a system taking the jo and many traditional jo techniques(from different styles), techniques from other nonjapanese and nonokinawan arts, and applying them to modern situations. Could even create interest among police. Just for the sake of having a dedicated and modern short staff system.

I understand that you think you can attain something spiritual through kata but the jo wasn't developed for that reason initially. It was developed as a fighting instrument. Returning it to that would be kind of cool.

gmlc123
23rd January 2004, 04:10
Kimlan Sensei

Your understanding of Jodo is far superior to any of us here. Kewl.. yes, can I also starting using my shinken too? happy to practice with you any time ;)

If cyber-misogi was a reality, you'd be outta here 4ever. :D




Originally posted by shonuff
I understand that you think you can attain something spiritual through kata but the jo wasn't developed for that reason initially. It was developed as a fighting instrument. Returning it to that would be kind of cool.

renfield_kuroda
23rd January 2004, 06:04
Originally posted by shonuff
It would be a system taking the jo and many traditional jo techniques(from different styles), techniques from other nonjapanese and nonokinawan arts, and applying them to modern situations. Could even create interest among police. Just for the sake of having a dedicated and modern short staff system.

At the risk of sounding repetitive, it's already been done. Again, two examples are Uchidaryu and Toseiryu. A third are the keisatu-bo techniques (police baton.)



I understand that you think you can attain something spiritual through kata but the jo wasn't developed for that reason initially. It was developed as a fighting instrument. Returning it to that would be kind of cool.

You want 'real, fighting jo'? Come play with Niina-gosoke. He tells us all the time: you can use whatever you want; kali sticks, shinken, whatever. He'll use a collapsible umbrella and still you won't get near him. That's what spending decades of training to earn menkyo-kaiden means, and until you get there you really shouldn't worry too much about the art not being enough for you in its current state.

Regards,
r e n

Brian Owens
23rd January 2004, 06:45
Originally posted by ulvulv
why not try online-swordfighting?
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Have you posted that picture in the Krappy Karate Katana Kamae thread yet?
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

ulvulv
23rd January 2004, 08:37
Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Have you posted that picture in the Krappy Karate Katana Kamae thread yet?
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I think I post to much kkkkamae-pics. Feel free. :)
After all, those guys have a center that most of os could just dream of ;)

shonuff
23rd January 2004, 10:23
I'm not saying i know more. I'm not saying it's not good enough. I'm just saying that it would pay off to put in a lot of work to develop a harsher jo based staff fighting system just for the hell of it. Good for keisatsu bo, but i'm not talking police techniques. There are quite a few police forces in the world who use short staves. YOu could go to india, indonesia, and other parts of the world and find short staff fighting. Tons of short staff arts out there. Look at french MA, they sometimes take to fencing with sticks. Very different approaches all around.

I'm not saying one should abandon traditional jodo, jojutsu, hanbojutsu. I'm not saying someone in the west should start a new art and call it Neo Jodo. How about just starting a club or organization that uses short staves and maybe even long staves for full contact or street fighting based on traditional jo (and bo if you also you the long staff).

BTW, isn't Uchida ryu that cane fighting? I'm not talking about hanbo/tanjo/cane/walking stick fighting. I'm talking about the 50 inch staff or one that fits right under your armpit.

One more thing, Good for niina-gosoke if he is that good. YOu still can't use a kali stick like a bo or jo. Try wielding a 50 inch staff on each hand. I can see wielding two 3 foot sticks but not see dual wielding 4 foot 2 inch sticks. I can see someone hand shifting and sliding a short staff in their hands but doing that with a kali stick is a waste. A kali stick is best gripped near the end and used in one hand for striking. A jo is best used in both hands when striking. The only similarities come when trying to subdue someone. Both can be used to assist in submission holds and locks. And even then some submissions are not compatible. Sometimes a technique requires that when an opponent is flat on his back that the stick slide under his back and over the bicep. ONe applies force to the end nearest the bicep. The stick is trapped under the opponents body providing the "third" hand of resistance. Opponent feels pain in his arm. Works better with longer stick not so well with kali stick.

ulvulv
23rd January 2004, 10:54
My girlfriend has been doing arnis/escrima and jujutsu since the mid-eighties, and we have both been pursuing jodo for fourteen years, and other arts, armed and unarmed, at the same time. Neither uf us have ever felt the urge to mix and cross-fertilize the arts, trough mixing the arts. The understanding of one of the arts can give flavour and spirit to another, but thats another issue.
Each and every of them, even phillipine stickfighting, offer such a vast curriculum,that a serious study will litterally keep your hands full for years.
Behind the hits, cuts, throws, thrust and locks, different arts develop different attitudes, and has different goals. There has been attempts to "japanify" the phillipine arts, making it some kind of "do", or spiritual path. Strange.
Each art has its own colour and flavour, if you mix it to much, it turn into a grey porridge that doesnt do justice to any of the separate arts.
Usually, any kind of cross-fertilizing will smell like $h1t. Some prefer $h1t to chocolate. Not me.

SMJodo
23rd January 2004, 15:35
Man, how did my little Jo insecurity turn into revamping the art so quickly?

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Jack B
23rd January 2004, 18:00
Originally posted by shonuff
How about just starting a club or organization that uses short staves and maybe even long staves for full contact or street fighting based on traditional jo (and bo if you also you the long staff). www.dogbrothers.com (http://www.dogbrothers.com/)

"Good guys with good stuff" - Jeff Allen, 5 dan in Archipelago Combatives

renfield_kuroda
25th January 2004, 03:56
Originally posted by shonuff
I'm just saying that it would pay off to put in a lot of work to develop a harsher jo based staff fighting system just for the hell of it.

If you think doing that is the way to go, by all means go for it! All I am suggesting is that you trying to sticking with the traditional curriculum for 20-30 years, and THEN decide if your training requires a 'harsher' way of practicing.

Keep in mind Shindomusoryu jo has been practiced in this traditional way for several centuries, so maybe you should give it a chance before you go inventing a new/better way to train?

Regards,

r e n