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G. Zepeda
17th January 2004, 17:23
Hello,

My name is Gil Zepeda. I have been into the JSA for a few years. The end result of studying Taoist and Zen texts.
I have been, for almost as long, also researching the idea of the "Tengu" in Japan.
Now, let me try to describe what aspects of the Tengu I am interested in.
For many swordsmen, and martial artists in general, there seems to be an interaction, after a time with these "characters". If I may call them that.
For the person descrbing this interaction, it seems wholly real, as far as I can tell. Now, I cannot read Japanese, or old Japanese, or anything but Spanish and English. The descriptions could be veiled with lingual symbology that is to subtle for the translators of old.
I don't know.
I would like to hear any opinions on the matter. Some aspects of note that I enjoy making connections with involve Mesoamerican(Nahuatl) religious and mythic sources.
For example, the sword proper was never introduced into Mesoamerica, yet, there is the hummingbird god of war, Huitzilopochtli(sic.).
In my view, and opinion, the descriptions of this god, and of tengu are almost synonomous. A tall man, with the head of a bird, whose feathers either, "shone so green as to be black", or "shone like a crow, so black as to be green".
So, I am looking for any translations that could be available of the descriptions of the Tengu of Japan, of any era.
I also know that many people today in Japan still believe in these mountain spirits.
Sorry for the disjointed post, I just want to get a dialogue started with anyone that might be interested.

Mekugi
17th January 2004, 18:24
Tengu in some areas are also "related" to yamabushi.

Yamabushi, in this case, means "dweller (sleeper) in the mountain" and not mountain warrior or something like that. They are not only crows, they have a men's faces as well, with a long nose- this is sometimes associated with the mountian aesthetics.

A good resource is looking into mask making and puppetry. They can have a great deal of information regarding demons and ghosts, and usually are a good place to start.

Always,
-R

Joseph Svinth
18th January 2004, 20:09
In colloquial Japanese, a tengu is also an egotist. Lots of those in the Japanese MA.

However, in this context, the puppet theater is definitely a place to look. The glory years happened to be the 17th and 18th centuries, so of course sword-slashers were popular, complete with special effects such as puppets that gushed beet juice when their heads were chopped off. For a description of a tengu in action, see http://www.geocities.co.jp/Berkeley/3508/otogizoshi.html .

For more about the Japanese puppet theater, see http://www.sagecraft.com/puppetry/definitions/Bunraku.hist.html
http://osaka.yomiuri.co.jp/bunraku/english/

Kabuki and Noh plays also used the tengu motif. See, for example, http://www.artelino.com/articles/benkei.asp

Thus, it shouldn't surprise anyone to learn that anime sometimes uses the tengu motif, too.

Just another indicator of how much of "samurai culture" is actually based on theatrical representations rather than historical military reality.

For some academic discussions, start with the Cambridge Guide to World Theatre, and then check Donald Keene's books on Noh, Bunraku, etc. A bibliography appears at http://library.kcc.hawaii.edu/external/asdp/biblio/theater/shotwellbib.html .

Joseph Svinth
18th January 2004, 20:20
The traditional Nahuatl (Aztec) theater is not as well documented, especially in English, as is the contemporary Japanese theater. See, for example, http://hemi.nyu.edu/archive/studentwork/colony/smalec/main3.html .

Nonetheless, the information probably exists, and if you pay close attention, you will probably find stick fighting and wrestling associated with the traditional Mesoamerican stage productions, too.

Mekugi
19th January 2004, 06:37
WOA that is fascinating, thanks for the link.
Something similar went on in the Philippines as well with Arnis- stick fighting and bladed weaponry galore. Very interesting indeed.
Always,

-Russ

Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
The traditional Nahuatl (Aztec) theater is not as well documented, especially in English, as is the contemporary Japanese theater. See, for example, http://hemi.nyu.edu/archive/studentwork/colony/smalec/main3.html .

Nonetheless, the information probably exists, and if you pay close attention, you will probably find stick fighting and wrestling associated with the traditional Mesoamerican stage productions, too.

G. Zepeda
19th January 2004, 17:54
Thanks guys, the story of Benkei always makes for good reading.
Yes, there is a great sword/ spear tradition that goes along with the Aztec religion and culture.
The sword design is most bizarre. They would use two pieces of wood to encompass sharpened obsidian blades. The swords would do a mighty severe cut if they hit, although I seem to think that it would take to much work to keep the sharpness and overall functionality intact in constant battle and warfare.

Joseph Svinth
22nd January 2004, 03:05
Russ --

One of my several theories regarding arnis is that its roots include moro-moro plays. Think self-flagellation and all that.

Another theory is that the biggest difference between arnis and kali is that arnis practitioners tend to be Catholic while kali practitioners tend to be Muslim.

Once again, Cambridge Guide to World Theatre is a place to start.

Gil --

Speaking of arnis, something cognate to moro-moro plays may exist in Mexico. Remember, Manila was administered by Mexico City, and so similar rules and attitudes may have applied in both places. Not saying they did, but certainly worth considering if you have access to primary sources.

G. Zepeda
2nd February 2004, 16:35
The difference between the Philipines and Mesoamerica is that the religious and cultural traditions, IMHO were very much isolated and different than that in the East Indies.
The closest syncretism I see here in Latin America is of course, the Cofradia, which is basically a celebration of an indigenous saint with that of a Catholic one. The natives just changed the name to protect the innocent worshippers. The Catholic priests, had they found out, would surely have killed or had killed the heathens.

I think the aspect of the "ball game" of Mesoamerica might be the closest to what you are talking about in regards to ceremonial warfare.
I haven't found many text or script that described the fighting style of the new world, other than the use of the spear and atl-latl as the main weapons of choice.