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Jody Holeton
12th June 2000, 21:20
Dear all,


Can anybody help me name and categorize different titles and licenses some styles have?


For example I've heard shihan be used for Aikido, Yagyu Shingan-ryu Jujitsu and Judo

Hanshi for Kendo and MJER Iaido

does anybody have anything else to add?
Thanks--Jody Holeton

kenkyusha
12th June 2000, 22:31
All of the good instructors go by:
Dai-shihan-sabunim-sigung-ie-soke-pendekar-tuhon-lakan-moto. Many also have entire uniforms made of 5" wide obi of different colors.

Also, most true masters have a big neon sign (or glow-in-dark for Ninjas) on their uwagi that says simply, "Great(est) Grandmaster". http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif

Be well,
Jigme

------------------
Jigme Chobang
Kenkyusha@bigfoot.com

[This message has been edited by kenkyusha (edited 06-12-2000).]

Jody Holeton
12th June 2000, 22:40
Come on kenkyusha!

I'm asking an honest question here. I'm not talking AMerican lingo here "I have a black belt, that means I can teach and I am a master now!".

I'm talking real Japanese terms for real Japanese arts. Not the make em up as you go variety. ZNKR, ZNIR, ZNBR, all have special licenses and titles. I just thought I'd ask the group---Jody

kenkyusha
13th June 2000, 04:36
Sorry Jody,

It was a wretched day, and that was the moment of levity (not intended to poke fun at you at all).

Renshi is used by the ZKR too isn't it?

Be well,
Jigme



------------------
Jigme Chobang
Kenkyusha@bigfoot.com

hyaku
13th June 2000, 10:38
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jody Holeton:

I'm talking real Japanese terms for real Japanese arts. Not the make em up as you go variety. ZNKR, ZNIR, ZNBR, all have special licenses and titles. I just thought I'd ask the group---Jody[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
.............................

Hanshi is not an MJER term. Most of these terms are awarded by the association not a Ryu.

Regards Hyakutake

Earl Hartman
13th June 2000, 23:30
In most modern budo, "black belt" rankings go from 1-10, one being the lowest and 10 being the highest. In addition to this, there are what are called "Shogo", or teaching ranks, as follows:

Renshi - Trainer ("he/she who trains", the lowest level teaching credential, sort of like a junior instructor)

Kyoshi - Teacher (literally "he/she who teaches")

Hanshi - Master (literally "he/she who is an example")

In modern kyudo, for example, ranks 1-5 are gained by successfully passing a test consisting of a practical examination (shooting two arrows at a target) and a written examination. Once one has reached the 5th dan level, one can test for Renshi. This consists of a test made up of two rounds: the first round is just like all other tests (practical and written). If the candidate successfully passes the first round, there is then an oral examination before the judging panel where the candidate is asked questions chosen by the judges; thus no prior preparation for specific questions is possible. This is followed by a second practial exam (2 arrows). Those who pass both phases of the test are awarded the Renshi certificate. This is extemely rigorous; for example, at the Renshi examination last year in Sendai, there were 350 candidates. Only 26 made it to the 2nd round, and of these only 10 successfully passed the entire test.

Normally, as far as I know, (in kyudo, anyway) those holding 6th dan and above can test for Kyoshi and those holding 8th dan are eligble to test for Hanshi. In kyudo, ranks above 8th dan are awarded by a consensus of the leaders of the organization.

While it is common for people without a Shogo certificate to assume instructional duties if the situation requires it, one is not entitled to be addressed as "Sensei", or registered as such, unless one posesses a Shogo ranking (in Japan, at least).

The prototypes for these ranks were created originally by the Dai Nippon Butokukai and modified later by the Butokukai's successor organizations (ZNKR, ZNIR, etc.) to standardize the ranking titles nationally. As Hyakutake san correctly points out, they should not be confused with the licenses and titles awarded by traditional ryuha, which differ from ryu to ryu.

Earl Hartman

Tetsutaka
14th June 2000, 00:14
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Earl Hartman:
The prototypes for these ranks were created originally by the Dai Nippon Butokukai and modified later by the Butokukai's successor organizations (ZNKR, ZNIR, etc.) to standardize the ranking titles nationally. As Hyakutake san correctly points out, they should not be confused with the licenses and titles awarded by traditional ryuha, which differ from ryu to ryu.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Wow! That clears things up... http://216.10.1.92/ubb/wink.gif


------------------
Houston Haynes (http://home.nc.rr.com/houstonandjulie)
"You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

[This message has been edited by Tetsutaka (edited 06-13-2000).]

kingwoodbudo
12th July 2001, 21:40
Originally posted by Jody Holeton
Come on kenkyusha!

I'm asking an honest question here. I'm not talking AMerican lingo here "I have a black belt, that means I can teach and I am a master now!".

I'm talking real Japanese terms for real Japanese arts. Not the make em up as you go variety. ZNKR, ZNIR, ZNBR, all have special licenses and titles. I just thought I'd ask the group---Jody

You are kidding about the Master Now comment right? If not, you are in for a suprise. Black belt doesn't really mean anything except you've gotten to the point that you can learn higher level techniques.

Jody Holeton
13th July 2001, 02:56
Dear Kingwoodbudo,


Hi and welcome to e-budo!

Wow! This is a realllly old thread too!!

I was just asking about professional licenses and titles coming from older and traditional martial arts.

In Japan you can get a shoudan, a black belt in about a year depending on what or whom your studying with.

I was wondering until I wrote one of my old fencing instructors and talked to some people from the IAIDO-L . Thank you Karl Friday and Kim Taylor for all the friendly info.

Thank you Mr. Hartman, why can't you and MarkF have schools here in Michigan!!!

Later

kingwoodbudo
13th July 2001, 04:40
Dear Jody,

I didn't notice how old the thread was :)

I hope I didn't come across as harsh, it's just that too many people get big heads after receiving a black belt, so I want people to recognize that even though they've reached their black belt, it's only the beginning to a new way of thinking.

I envy you being able to train in japan for such a long time. I've been several times to japan to train, i love it, but i make a better living here :)

Keep up the training :nin:

MarkF
14th July 2001, 10:26
Receiving a black belt in Japan also has a lot to do with one's age. A student who is ten years older than the average black belt in a given dojo, is much more likely to receive it in a few months to a year, and a youngster, say eighteen in that same class probably would take a bit longer.

It has to do very much with seniority and why it takes so much longer in the US to get to that level.

I think it was Don Cunningham who said, when he was learning judo in Japan, and a brown belt (I'll assume ikyu here) in judo, addressed a blac belt of a much younger age as sensei, and was politely corrected that it was not correct for him to address a younger person than himself as sensei.

I would agree with that, too. I think it pompous, frankly, for a young shodan to becalled sensei by a much older student, anywhere, even in a wide disparity of grade.

Mark

kingwoodbudo
14th July 2001, 15:47
That's interesting, i asked my wife, who is japanese, about that and she said that the characters sen=before and sei= born, so that sensei means born before, or started before. So age had nothing to do with it. Maybe it is different in martial arts?

I will ask around in Japan, thanks for the insight :D


:wave: mata

Yamantaka
14th July 2001, 23:28
Originally posted by Jody Holeton
Dear all,
Can anybody help me name and categorize different titles and licenses some styles have?
For example I've heard shihan be used for Aikido, Yagyu Shingan-ryu Jujitsu and Judo
Hanshi for Kendo and MJER Iaido
does anybody have anything else to add?
Thanks--Jody Holeton

YAMANTAKA : Wayne Muromoto Sensei has this excellent text on japanese titles :
http://www.furyu.com/onlinearticles/Defs2.html
Perhaps it will help you.
Best
Ubaldo.

Jeff Hamacher
16th July 2001, 04:22
Originally posted by kingwoodbudo
That's interesting, i asked my wife, who is japanese, about that and she said that the characters sen=before and sei= born, so that sensei means born before, or started before.
i think this is the simplest way to understand the etymology of the term. bear in mind that the honourific "sensei" is commonly used in japan for people who may not necessarily teach, but the term certainly indicates seniority, usually of age. i'm compelled to say that it's just classic Confucian thinking: with age comes the right to tell younger folks what to do, which is probably predicated on the notion that "with age comes wisdom".

So age had nothing to do with it. Maybe it is different in martial arts?

unless i've completely misunderstood what you meant to say, i think this sentence has got things backwards. traditionally, those who were older had greater experience with their vocation, and that seniority gave them the teacher's or mentor's role within their vocation. in the modern world a teacher who is younger than some of their students isn't such an uncommon situation because many learn their given activity as a hobby and not a job. the teacher has seniority within the activity they teach, and that earns them the title of "sensei".

cheers, jeff hamacher