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Nathan Scott
23rd January 2004, 20:49
This is actually a serious thread...

Years ago I used to study Northern Shaolin Long Fist Kung-fu, and my senior in the art and I still keep in touch. He told me recently that our teacher, who is legit and non-commercial, is teaching him some Japanese katana forms that were adopted into Chinese arts many years ago. I'll just post his response to me here:


I began the Shorin-ji/ Shaolin Katana yesterday. As it turns out, the movement comes from observations gleaned during the Ming Dynasty period. Many incursions by the Japanese were made against the Chinese mainland and there was an intense effort to observe and learn the simple yet effective movements of the nearly unstoppable Samurai invaders. Some of the movement was learned from returning combat veterans who were Shaolin Monks sent to stop them and other moments came from captured Japanese soldiers. I'll let you know more as I collect information on this.

The only other references I've come across of specific kenjutsu methods having an influence on CMA is from the following:


From "The Sword and Same", by Henri L. Joli/ Inada Hogitaro. Holland Press. 1979; pg 57:

In recent days (ca. 1737) there have been many people calling themselves fencing experts (kenkaku), as it is said in China. According to the Bubishi of (Ming) Bobengi:

"Shoho Sekikeiko, a general who lived in the time of Seisokotei of the Ming dynasty, went to Japan in the 40th year of Kase (Chia Tsing), and became initiated into the style of fencing of the Kage school (Kage no ryu*). The 40th year of Kase is the 4th year of Eiroku (1562), in the reign of Ogimachi Tenno (1558-1587). It appears that someone went to China and learnt this fact. I think they appreciate highly the Japanese style of fencing, as they are adopting it…"

[1562 is 42 years after Aisu died. It is more likely that Shoho studied under Kamiizumi or someone else in Shinkage ryu. NS]

*The text here actually says "Shin kage ryu" for some reason, though the kanji that follows reads "Kage no ryu".

Also, the following was noted from the IHS page:


From the International Hoplology Society (http://www.hoplology.com) homepage - "AISU KAGE RYU", translated from "Zusetsu: Nippon Kengo-shi", by Imamura Yoshio; pgs. 23-28:

Today, there remains virtually no contemporaneous material on Kage no ryu. There is one important piece though; a reference to Kage no ryu in a collection of Chinese martial essays called the Bubishi (Records of Military Preparation). The Bubishi was the work of the Ming Dynasty Chinese military writer, Bo Gengi (Ch. Mau Yuanyi). In a total of 240 volumes, he expounded on important points of military preparation. In volume no. 86, parts of the Kage no ryu syllabus – accompanied with images of monkeys – are found:

Kage ryu no mokuroku (Catalog of the Kage ryu)
Enpi (Monkey Flying)
Koryu (Tiger-Dragon)
Seigan (Blue Shore)
Inken (Shadow Vision)
Enkai (Monkey Twirling)
Dai-san Yamakage (Mountain Shadow, Number Three)

It is likely that Kage no ryu had gained attention among Chinese military authorities from Japanese warriors and pirates who raided China’s coasts during that period. Obviously, the military authorities were impressed with the swordsmanship of these fighters.

I'm not surprised that Japanese culture and budo had some influence on other countries, such as China, but I was not aware that some of the methods had been preserved and/or adapted to CMA.

Anyone else have some insight or references to offer?

Regards,

ghp
23rd January 2004, 21:23
Hi Nathan,

Some years back someone else was researching the same thing; he posted a URL with extracts from a Chinese manuscript showing what are certainly Japanese (Kage no Ryu??) movements. I don't recall the url, but I did print the page(s). I'll try to remember to bring them in on Monday and check the url again. If no luck with the url, I'll scan what I've got and will send it to you.

From what I recall (saw it last about a month ago as I was dusting off my desk) -- there were about 8 sketches of a typically Chinese civil-servant type [billowing robes, cap, etc), wearing what looks like a katana, and using Japanese styled poses. The Chinese states something like "extracting the sword" --- which, IF I recall correctly, used "batsu" and "to" [batto] ideograms.

Cheers,
Guy

Nathan Scott
24th January 2004, 00:10
Hi Guy,

Long time no talk.

Thanks for the info. I don't remember seeing such an article, and don't recall a previous discussion. If you do find this article, online or otherwise, I would appreciate a copy!

Regards,

Nathan Scott
24th January 2004, 02:26
My friend just emailed me again, and mentioned that the form he is learning was made famous by a "General Chik" sometime during the Ming Dynasty.

Regards,

mikeym
24th January 2004, 04:20
I'm pretty sure I saw an article on Sword Forum (http://forums.swordforum.com) about a Chinese adaptation of Kage Ryu, but I just looked for it and couldn't find it. Maybe someone with better searching skills than me could find a link.

- Mike Malkin

ghp
24th January 2004, 05:04
Hello Nathan!! Yes, long time nola communicado! :)


I found the stuff and the pages are still active:


http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/article/2hand/ming1.jpg
"...Swordfighting stances from the 1588 edition of Chinese General Qi Jiguang 's Ji Xiao Xin Shu. General Ji inflicted a great defeat on the Japanese pirates in 1561 at Taizhou, capturing the leader and 1900 pows. These techniques were obtained after interrogating (ie torturing) the pirates...." http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/article/2hand/ming.html

Here are more:
http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/article/2hand/ming3.html

http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/article/2hand/ming4.html

http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/article/2hand/qing1.jpg
The caption states, "Belted sword" [ taitou in Japanese] -- I can't remember how to pronounce the third kanji, but it's "position."

http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/article/2hand/qing2.jpg
"Dattou [position]" The characters translate to "removed sword position."



Regards,
Guy

Nathan Scott
24th January 2004, 07:56
Wow, crazy stuff. Thanks for posting it.

The "General Chik" is probably a typo for "General Chi", which is probably an alternate spelling for "General Ji". I thought "Chik" looked funny, but wasn't sure what it was supposed to be.

I'll print those pages up and see how it compares to what my friend is doing. Some of it is pretty Chinese looking, understandably so.

Interesting about the "datto" being understood as a reverse-grip draw too.

BTW, my wife's guess on the last kanji is to pronounce it "sei", FWIW.

Thanks for the links,

glad2bhere
24th January 2004, 16:17
Dear Guy and Nathan:

You can't imagine how glad I am to see you folks discussing this material. As you both know my research is more from the Korean side through the MYTBTJ.

General Qi was quite taken with the aggressive sword work of the Japanese members of the Wa-Ko incursions both from a tactical and training point of view. So's book seems to suggest that the proponderance of what Japanese were actually involved in these incursions came from the southern most island in the Japanese islands and I understand there are at least two very aggressive styles that come out of this area. This is often used as the rationale for both his designing a long sword form using a weapon some 6 English feet long, as well as his use of the squad formation he adopted for his troops.

Qi's manual as well as the WU BEI ZHI by Mao have been identified as the source material for quite a bit of the martial traditions in both Chinese and Korean culture. We also can't discount that both works came to Japan as well just like there are five sword forms (4 single, 1 double) in the MYTBTJ that came from Japan.

Right now, the only problem that I have run into is that it is (so far) not possible to identify anyone who does the original Qi material. Just about every case of someone doing Qi sword is essentially a reconstruction and, as you know this always calls authenticity into question. FWIW.

BTW: I think I may have mentioned this before but there is a very fine bio of Gen Qi in "1587- A YEAR OF NO SIGNIFICANCE" by Huang if you are interested.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Joseph Svinth
24th January 2004, 21:12
You may also want to read some of Stanley Henning's articles. See, for instance, http://www.nardis.com/~twchan/henning.html .

BTW, during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, tens of thousands of Japanese swords were sold in China, so Japanese influence would not be surprising. For some pix and descriptions, http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/photo2.html and http://www.shadowofleaves.com/Chinese_Sword_History.htm .

wushi
26th January 2004, 18:38
While I don't know anything about techniques from Japanese Ryu that were incorporated into Chinese matrial arts, I know that in Taiwan there are at least two systems of sword fighting which claim that they were developed to fight against Japanese swordsmen. Both systems utilize a two-handed sword (most Chinese swords are one-handed). One of these systems uses basically an overgrown Chinese sabre (da dao ), and the moves are fast and powerful with little if any thrusting (the blade just isn't designed for it). This system purportedly saw action during WWII and is taught by Gao Daosheng, among others.

Another system which is said to have been developed to fight off Japanese pirates uses a long sword, very much like a tachi. The sword used is called a miao dao (transladed as "grain-leaf sabre"). I don't know much about the techniques here, as I haven't seen them myself, but I found this picture on one of Xu Ji's (a.k.a. Adam Hsu's)
websites (http://home.earthlink.net/~wushujia/) :
http://home.earthlink.net/~wushujia/optimized/sword.gif

glad2bhere
26th January 2004, 19:01
Yes, there has been much discussion about the source of miao dao material, much discussion about the appropriate term for the weapon you describe at varying times in Chinese history and how General Qi's material relates to various sword forms practice in China, Korea and Japan in the last 100 years. So far no conclusive answers have come up. What I am finding is that it is not so much that the information doesn't exist but that people holding the information are not very open to sharing and discussing as are we on such Nets as this. Must be a cultural thing, ne?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Nathan Scott
26th January 2004, 19:13
Hi all,

Thanks for the great responses!

I got one private response by someone who also said that "General Chik" was probably General Qi Jiguang (Ch'i Chi-kuang), and that two sets of illustrations Guy posted were from two different original sources-- both derived from Japanese sources.

There is apparently some information in Japanese on this subject published by Matsuda Ryuichi (I think it was "Hiden Nihon Jujutsu"?). Still trying to get a copy of this one though.

The person who PM'd me was also under the impression that sword forms from General Qi had not survived to the current day, and that they had perhaps been reconstructed at some point if they do still exist. I'll post an update if I find out anything new.

Regards,

W.Bodiford
26th January 2004, 20:41
The key Japanese source for information on this topic is: Kasao Kyôji, Chûgoku bujutsu shi daikan (Overview of Chinese Martial Art History, 1994).

For more information, see my previous post on the thread "Ancient Tachi Exports to China":

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=7863

Cheers,

Nathan Scott
26th January 2004, 21:17
Wow, great thread. Thanks for posting it!

Regards,

glad2bhere
26th January 2004, 21:34
Dr Bodiford:

Thanks for the reminder of your other post. Can you also say whether the WU BEI ZHI by Mao was translated into Japanese and might a modern reprint still be found?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

claughrun
26th January 2004, 22:06
Professor Bodiford's previous post in the "tachi exports" thread is a good summary of the texts and sources available on the topic. He consistently offers some of the best and more well-informed posts on this forum. However, I would like to clear up a couple of inaccuracies, before they create confusion.

The author of the Dadaofa xuan was Cheng Zongyou (—Q), not Cheng Zongxian (Œ£). The characters are similar. Perhaps there is a typo in Prof. Bodiford's source?

Although Wu Shu does give techniques and critiques of various weapons, his Shoubei lu and its two appendices are devoted primarily--almost obsessively--to spearmanship. It is a detailed and valuable contemporary resource on the topic, and we are lucky it survived.

W.Bodiford
3rd February 2004, 01:59
Dear Chris Laughrun:

Thank you for the corrections.

***

Dear Bruce Sims:

I do not know of a translation of Wubeizhi, but during the Tokugawa period Japanese publishers reprinted the Chinese text several times both in abridged and in complete versions. I do not know of a modern Japanese reprint.

glad2bhere
3rd February 2004, 02:34
Dear Dr. Bodiford:

Many thanks for your response. I had been advised that the Physical Education Department for the PRC in Beijing had reprinted both the WU BEI ZHI and General Qi's Jin Xiao Shin Shu in 1988. I have been able to locate a copy of the latter but not the former so it was a shot in the dark whether the Japanese market might have provided an alternative. Oh, well. Everybody needs a hobby, right? Thanks again.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

W.Bodiford
10th February 2004, 02:17
Originally posted by glad2bhere
I have been able to locate a copy of the latter but not the former . . . .

Here is the bibliographic information from the UCLA library's catalog:

===================
Title : Wu bei zhi : [240 juan] / [Mao Yuanyi ji].
: æ_¦å‚™å¿— : [240å?·] / [茅元儀輯].
Edition : Di 1 ban.
第1版.
Publisher : [Taipei] : Hua shi chu ban she, [1991?]
[Taipei] : �世出版社, [1991?]
Description : 22 v. ([4], 10224 p.) : ill., maps ; 21 cm.
Note : Reprint, with new introduction.
"Wu bei zhi bi dian fan li" -- p.91.
: æ_¦å‚™å¿—批點凡例 " -- p.91.

Call number : U43.C6 W8 1991
===================

I hope this helps.

glad2bhere
10th February 2004, 13:06
Dear Dr. Bodiford:

My sincere thanks for your time and attention. I had tried both Columbia and UCLA and had not turned up anything on-line. You have done me a real service. I hope I might have an opportunity to return the favor.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

glad2bhere
10th February 2004, 13:10
Noting the sketches published in the Chinese material, were one interested to see the real thing there is a picture of two ssang soo on the Sword Forum International Net under the category "more Korean swords". I think you might enjoy eye-balling these.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Nathan Scott
10th February 2004, 21:16
Hi all,

I just came across a copy of the Wubeizhi from the 1600's. At first glance, I noticed a couple of pages of handwritten text that seemed to be titled "[something]-ryu no Mokuroku". The drawings that followed were of monkeys, similar if not the same to those drawings I've seen reproduced from the (Aisu) Kage-ryu Mokuroku. There were drawings of humans doing techniques that followed, and these techniques looked more Japanese than Chinese.

When I get a chance, I'll try to copy this section and take a better look at it. The kanji is pretty hard to read though.

Damn interesting,