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Excel Glenn
24th January 2004, 07:27
Ok,

I am working with a younger guy who has done a two year Kyokushin deshi program in NC. He has been trained solidly in the foundations of knock down (six days a week for 5-6 hours a day for two years), and I am helping him to smooth out some of his techniques. What I am running into is common among most novice to intermediate martial arts.

I saw this in TKD, kickboxers, karateka, etc. So many people don't seem to understand how the hips work in conjuction with the spine and supporting leg.

Example- Front kick- the addage is "lift the knee" and extend the leg.
Ok, first the knee cannot be "lifted" and the hip, unlike the shoulder, is not a sliding joint.

The hip is capable of opening by abducting the legs, rotating on independent axes, like when you grap your foot to stretch your quad and rotating out, like a ballet first position. That is it.

So in a front kick, when you lift your knee up to the ceiling you are overusing the front hip flexor through too much isolation, rather than using the proper axis of rotation to rotate the knee up AS your foot is brought in line with the target.

In other words, the front kick executed by most people is an up and out affair, when it really should produce a curvilinear S pattern when viewed from the perspective of the foot. I addition when done with a hip and shoulder preparation more similar to a roundhouse kick (a good one) the results are impressive.

We tested this on a kick shield that he has that measures force (not sure what the numbers represent, but it is a metric that goes from zero, so it is at least useful for comparison) and when doing up and out (wrong) you get a score that is roughly half that of the S pattern kick 165 vs. 330 to 350. I have attached a scan from Ashihara's book to show the action of the hip. Note the circles inicating the upswing of the hip and the revers S path of the ankle and foot.

I have found that most coaches and instructors basically teach the same white belt "exercise" for learning how to not swing the leg wildly as the whole of the technique. As I work with other people and help them with their kicking, I just see the same patterns, which were the patterns I was shown and used for years until I started asking different questions (thanks to a good Kyokushin nidan named Masaru).

So, I would like to get opinions on this, starting with the front kick and possibly moving to roundhouse and side kicks (the most complex).

Maybe this can get us away from our typical topic of whether kata suck or not.

PS

The drawing attached is meant to show hip function not a picture perfect kick. Treat it like Davinci's anatomical drawings please and refrain from dragging the thread down based on whether kicks should be high or anything basically pedantic and trite. It is a text book figure exemplifying only two components of a complex motion. 'Nuff said.

n2shotokai
24th January 2004, 15:55
I have never seen it expressed this way. I am used to the explanation that the hips rotate forward as opposed to up and out with the explanation that the upward movement would tend to bring your support foot and entire body weight upward with undesirable results. That being said, the reality is any kick above waist height would result in the hips rotating upward, but the intent would be to keep the hip and weight down. This is not a slam as the way I was taught is but one way. What is the reasoning for the up and out?

Excel Glenn
24th January 2004, 20:46
Most schools, do to the monkey see monkey do principal, teach to lift the top of the thigh to the ceiling, pause, then snap the knee out. This is what I mean by lift and out. It breaks smooth motion and the combination of the joints into the final force of the kick. Most people employing this method will bounce off their target.

The idea expressed in the photo is that the kick is circular and not linear. Actually all kicks are circular or at least eliptical to me.

If I understand your question correctly, I would say that using the hip as the rotating lever it is supposed to be will help to keep you low and centered. Watch a soccer player and you will see they drop down to kick the ball using their hip this way, slightly different appliation of the very same principal.

If you keep your weight down properly, then even a middle or pelvis level kick will come more up and into the target and will not hit at 90 degrees or horizontal. Thus even a middle technique is like the high one to the chin only the angle of impact and follow through is brought down and more closely resembles the horizontal. So the same principle is applied to a low, middle or high kick, the impact and follow through zone just occurs at a different angle to the horizontal. When I do this kick this way, most people who aren't paying attention can't see the difference between it and the typical "traditional" method.

The knee appears to come up, but it arcs up instead of bouncing up to towards the ceiling. The foot winds up to the buttocks more like a soccer kick as well. It is a much more fluid kick and is harder to detect, believe it or not, especially when hidden by footwork. At least this has been my experience.

tamashi
25th January 2004, 18:14
does he pivot on his supporting ball of the foot?
I find that many beginners do not understand this
and how it works with everything else.

Excel Glenn
25th January 2004, 19:44
Yes, pivoting on the supporting foot is crucial, BUT only during impact and follow through. If you really use the pivot you can turn this into a triangle kick, which is common in Ashihara. This kick hits like a freight train compared to the front kick, which can be devastating in and of itself.

The thing we are really working on is eliminating the idea that the body moves in 90 degree angles. Quite simply it doesn't and it can't, but this is what he was taught. Or it is what he perceived I suspect. I am sure his teacher new something more than basic white belt karate dynamics. So I am really working on teaching this person how to perceive movement. Once you can do that, the technical syllabus is open to you.

tamashi
26th January 2004, 00:49
The Mae Geri that goes in at almost
Parralel to the floor has a nice pushing back motion
but can be a bit difficult to retract back after
pushing out.

the mae geri that comes out at hte angle you describe
almost hits th torso at a 45 degree trajectory hurts
more and seems to "jumble up" the internal organs more.
it is also faster. and can be a bit harder to block...
:)

Excel Glenn
26th January 2004, 05:48
I agree with your assessment Mr. Thoresen. The upward kick definitely does more to the body, plus you can always flex your ankle through to get a pushing affect and make distance, like the thai push kick.

I tried to get a 90 degree impact on the mid-level today and just couldn't do it in a way that was smart or practical. I am pretty flexible and it just doesn't happen with my hips, plus I am about 6 ft. tall and this was on a 5' 8" opponent.

Yet this is what is taught as mantra in so many dojo, even some very good ones- all things considered. I can't tell you how many people I have had to "fix" in order to get them kicking correctly for good power generation. Sure they hit kind of hard if they caught you right, but not with that rifle bullet savagery that you describe about the front kick with the arcing trajectory. This type of impact is very disconcerting to people, is not that difficult to reproduce for a fit martial artist, and just makes better use of the body in all kicks (and punches). Not to mention each kick uses the same principles at different angles, so you can just spring board onto the next technique in your explanations and drills.

When were you exposed to this type of kicking approach in your training? I will admit that in TKD this type of fluid stuff wasn't shown to me until I met a pro fighter who returned from Korea. None of my other instructors had a clue about it, and were amazed when I started really hurting some of them, when before they could beat me due to body weight. Then I met my Kyokushin friend at FSU and he showed me even more. All in all about three years of training to get this stuff. Some people never, ever even see it.

tamashi
26th January 2004, 12:45
I was exsposed to the kicking you describe about 4 years ago
when i switched organizatons and have different instructors now.

I also get a good number of international students who have
trained in other Kyokushin Dojos across the world and they
are more likely to kick as you describe. One in particular
trained for about 5-6 years before joining me, and his front
kicks hurt even when just holding pads for him. :D

Doing some cross-training, Isshin Ryu in particular-
their front kick (well the guys i play w/ at times)
comes up almost more like a kin geri, but they strike
with the ball of the foot below the navel and that too
is a quick non telegraphed front kick.

I agree, the up and out might be a nice way to start
beginners on the kick. but in a way it works against
basic body mechanics and is not the most efficient.

Best regards,

Amphinon
26th January 2004, 15:12
Very good assesment.

The mae Geri is my favorite kick and I have taught this version since I started teaching.

It is also a good to point out that using the hips in this manner helps stabilize the body for the impact.

n2shotokai
26th January 2004, 15:54
I think I am becoming confused just on definition. Is my definition the same as what was originaly presented.

While there still is the basic concept of knee up and heel tucked to rear end the emphasis is on .........

The hip drives forward from the moment you start the kick and continues to impact. The direction of the impact is not upward as the leg snaps (mae geri keage) but is a function of a line from the hip to the target (mae geri kekomi). A kick to waist level will have the energy going parralel to the floor. A kick with the target 45 degrees from the hip will result in the energy moving in the direction of 45 degrees from the hip. I addition the support foot does not rotate until the last possible moment.

A variation of this would be to drop your hip towards the end of the forward movement which drives the kick under a gedan barai resulting in a kick that has forward impact as well as up?

Excel Glenn
27th January 2004, 15:11
Steve,

Yes, I think you have it. My only argument would be that I don't think that any of the kicks will produce a vector parallel to the ground. The lower you go the closer you come to parallel, but I don't think that the natural motion of the joints will allow that. Ok, maybe if you kick them in the shin, which is totally valid, but a much more abreviated front kick.

The following shows almost exactly what I am talking about. The problem is that it is stop motion. There is a lot of circularity or eliptical shape in what is being shown in these pictures. The point of impact is almost exactly how I contact mitts or a shield, or a person, but I cut the power waaay down in sparring, as does my sparring partner. Broken ribs aren't necessary.

I also throw mine with a little more hip and shoulder action, disguised by footwork and distance management. This, I have found greatly increases impact, but it is not always possible to load up with it.

n2shotokai
27th January 2004, 17:55
Okay, I'm with you now. You don't have to hit me in the head a few times to get it :rolleyes:

That is a standard mae geri for me as I rarely use the snap (keage)version. I think what threw me was the first diagram that showed upward motion which was drilled repeatedly into my head (see above) never to present to students. And while that is reality the philosophy was to avoid any reference to upward motion to keep the students as low as possible. Thank You!

tamashi
27th January 2004, 18:44
Originally posted by n2shotokai
Okay, I'm with you now. You don't have to hit me in the head a few times to get it :rolleyes:

That is a standard mae geri for me as I rarely use the snap (keage)version. I think what threw me was the first diagram that showed upward motion which was drilled repeatedly into my head (see above) never to present to students. And while that is reality the philosophy was to avoid any reference to upward motion to keep the students as low as possible. Thank You!

yes, if they just do upward motion, then the
foot scraps the torso and accomplishes nothing
but putting the kicker into a comprimied position.

Excel Glenn
27th January 2004, 21:32
The first picture was just an anatomical representation of hip action, showing how the knee bend is achieved by swinging the hip naturally rather than by hiking the knee toward the ceiling.

The feeling is very similar to kicking a football, but naturally the arc is shorter for a different purpose. Once I started hitting this way, I had to worry about my foot conditioning all over again! I thought I had reasonably tough feet from years of TKD kicking. They were sort of tough, but the ball of my foot took some time to get used the increased impact. I have never kicked another human being this hard, even in full contact. Training partners in my neck of the woods are hard to come by, and I know if somebody hit me that hard while I was disbalanced or out of guard, well something has to give and that usually means your unfortunate ribcage or an internal organ.

Speaking of which, I got the displeasure of seeing somebody get their spleen ruptured or lacerated by a back kick at the 1993 TKD nationals. No thank you...:D He also went out in a C-collar due to the follow up kick to the head as he fell.

This picture shows the shoulder and hip loading, but it is a picture of a high stretch kick. It is the only picture in the book that shows it. In sparring, you cover it with fakes, deceptive footwork, etc. and then whack away.

This will probably due it on the pictures. I have violated copyright quite enough I think. The nice thing about these books is that the arrows and tick marks on the floor really let you see the motion even in still photographs. Overall, they are just chocked full of the dynamic "secrets" of power generation. Although I don't use all of the techniques here, the core mechanics are still the same or very similar and it has made a big difference over the last twelve years.

tamashi
27th January 2004, 22:32
the videos are seriously good in the same way.

they were way ahead of their time and
very technical :D

Gene Williams
27th January 2004, 23:48
Glenn,

That is called "ballistic stretching" and my student who is an orthopedist says he does a lot of total hips on athletes who engage in such stretching over a number of years.

Excel Glenn
27th January 2004, 23:57
This is why MOST gendai karate is BS. Sorry just the facts

At least you said most, and didn't generalize across the board, it is a start I suppose. I have seen some Ishin Ryu and Matsumura that was crap. Not because it is crap totally, just those people, so obviously no method is completely fool proof, hence our discussion and my desire to see what others are doing and thinking. Anyone can get mired in what they are doing.

Gene,

Yes it can be ballistic, and that is dangerous. It can also be dynamic meaning that you do not take it beyond about 90 of your capacity, increasing as you go, while working other flexibility/strength drills. There is a difference, and sports medicine people can describe it to you. See the work of Thomas Kurz for a good discussion. However, I appreciate your concerns. There are a lot of people out there doing silly things with their bodies in the name of martial arts.

The last picture was put up for the second frame, showing the loading of the hip and shoulder going into a kick.

n2shotokai
28th January 2004, 14:25
Originally posted by Guffaw
You have stumbled upon an old "secret" of proper kicking for self-defense. You should also be aware that thrusting kicks (ex. mae-geri kekomi) are sparring techs. They have no use in the street. The stomping kick is different that this Jean-Claude Van Damme kick.
I beg to differ, mae geri kekomi is an excellent way to cause damage (break ribs, organs). This kick when combined with dropping the hips as the opponent blocks is the hardest strike I can think of to block as it rides up and under a block.

tamashi
28th January 2004, 17:47
Originally posted by Guffaw
Over and over you're describing the whip kick that is so prevalent in the so-called "played out" old styles like Matsumura Orthodox and Isshin Ryu. In these styles there is no knee-up chambered kicks, except for the front stomping and (slightly) with the front kick using the side of the foot (blade of the foot).

The modern, so-called evolved method of raising your knee 90 degrees then shooting your leg out 90 degrees is silly. It's to teach school kids safe mechanics and telegraphed technique for sparring fun.

Also both Isshin Ryu and Matsumura Seito use the toe-tip for kicking. How will you use the ball of the foot with hard shoes on? Shoe tips are much more effective as are blade of the sole kicks.

You have stumbled upon an old "secret" of proper kicking for self-defense. You should also be aware that thrusting kicks (ex. mae-geri kekomi) are sparring techs. They have no use in the street. The stomping kick is different that this Jean-Claude Van Damme kick.

If you learn it right the first time or second time you don't have to flounder around with seeking your whole life. Learn to evaluate and shop around for the right vehicle instead of investing in lemons. Why do any sport style at all? Respect yourself and the art of karate by picking a true karate style unadulterated by commercialism and ring sport. This is why MOST gendai karate is BS. Sorry just the facts.

this depends on what you mean by sport.