MA in the Movies [Archive]

MarkF

16th October 2000, 09:16

T. Mifune (not to be confused with Kyuzo Mifune) seems to have made many a martial art movie, or at least many scenes of martial arts (type casting more than a possibility here?). Order the movie Sanshiro Sugata (The judo Saga), based on a novel which lightly covered the life of Kodokan judo's "super hero" Saigo Shiro. This was Akira Kurosawa's first film, made in 1943. After you catch yourself saying "that stunk" or "What a piece of crap that was," consider the time it was made, the budget, but most of all, that it was made during WWII and was heavily censored. After that, see if you can track down a copy of Judo Saga II, starring T. Mifune as Yano (read Jigoro Kano) and check out the scene in both of how both Yano characters chunked a bunch of hooligans, out to prove this new "jiudo" was no good, in the drink, as stepping out of a ricshaw. The first was very crudely made, but the guy who played Kano (Yano) looked so much like Kano, it was scary. Not the best of MA films, but certainly one of more veracity than those of Jet li, Chuck Norris, or anyone else, for that matter.:saw:

For the rest of the judoka here, Red Sun with Charles Bronson and T. Mifune, in a scene of jujutsu, or a really good movie tomoe nage. Also a good film, to boot.

(a great line in the first Judo Saga was this: "Don't be haughty! Don't be haughty!") Well, I suppose it was the best one could do when translating in those days, whenever it was make available. I saw the first one in 1964.

Mark

Steve Williams

17th October 2000, 22:53

I am surprised that Bruce Lee has not been mentioned, certainly his fight scenes are amongst the best.

I am also a fan of Jackie Chan movies, ok the stories are generally really bad but that guy can really move, the use of props and surroundings is excellent.

Cameron Wheeler

18th October 2000, 09:12

Gost dog!!!!!!
I belive that it shows the Samuari spirit in a modern context. heavy lashings of quotes from HAGAKURE
and if you poy attention he always puts his gun away with a florish.

MarkF

18th October 2000, 10:05

Bruce Lee was a weenie and thought much too much of himself. As for Jackie Chan, his movies are not about martial arts. They are comedies with comical scene take-offs of Bruce Lee movies. Of course, some of the most serious of the Chinese arts movies are hysterical, but are not meant to be seen that way. Besides, laughing at them is laughing at yourselves. That is healthy and a good way to make sure we don't think too much of ourselves.

Mark

Joachim

18th October 2000, 10:40

A good protrayal of the spirit of the japnese martial arts can be found in the movie "Tampopo" (dandelion).
It's about a female owner of a ramen-resaturant (ramen = japnese noodle soup) who learns the right way of preparing soup from a truck driver. He even takes her to his "master", the leader of a group of gourmet hobos, who live in a Tokyo park.

Cady Goldfield

20th October 2000, 02:05

Being a low-class and tasteless individual with a low-brow sense of humor, I must confess that my favorite portrayals of MAs in the movies were 1. a 3 Stooges episode in which Moe pulls off a koshinage on an actor playing the role of General Tojo. 2. The "Kato" character in Peter Sellers' "Pink Panther" movies. 3. Bong Soo Han (hapkidoin)and Eric Kim in the Abrahams-Zucker classic, "A Fistful of Yen" (part of the "Kentucky Fried Movie").

Sorry... ;)

Cady

Margaret Lo

20th October 2000, 16:05

Mark - for Jackie and martial arts, check out young Jackie Chan in the Young Master, where he fights for what must be 10-20 minutes nonstop. I hear he faced a well known hapkido master. Also, in Drunken Master I or II he fought Benny Urquidez in a great fight scene.

Fong Sai Yuk is excellent too for great stunts and a very very funny story. It has a hysterical scene where the new mayor of Canton holds a martial arts contest to win over the locals. The theme of the contest is that whoever can beat his wife at martial arts can marry his daughter.

AlsoI hear that the new movie by Ang Lee "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon" is actually excellent for MA and for the story. Yo Yo Ma provides the music. I hear general release is to be in December.

-M-

Steve Williams

20th October 2000, 16:14

Originally posted by Janty Chattaw
In all seriousness, Jackie Chan has to be the most amazing stuntman/martial arts movie star. I would love to see anybody do the stuff he does at age 47, and still have all of his bones in tact. [/B]

Who said all his bones are still intact, he must break at least 2 or 3 a movie.

They say he broke his back making "Armour of God", (Titled "Operation Condor" in the US I think).
He still makes physical movies, no matter what you think Mark you must agree he is one tough mother.

Cady Goldfield

20th October 2000, 17:00

Don't forget Jackie's first English language production, "The Big Brawl"! His scenes with Mako as his sifu uncle are priceless.

Cady

Earl Hartman

20th October 2000, 17:27

"Seppuku" (called "Harakiri" in the US) is one of the best, (if not THE best) films to concentrate on the conflict between real and phony conceptions of the budo spirit. It stars Nakadai Tatsuya as a ronin who avenges the forced seppuku of his son-in-law at the hands of a group of high-society dastards who are trying to maintain what they see as the honor of their clan. Nakadai gives one of the best performances of his career. There isn't a tremendous amount of fighting (no clashing armies or sieges) but there are some good individual duels and the climactic battle is really good. If you haven't seen it you should. A very profound commentary on the conflict between the srtictures of bushi culture and human feelings.

I can't believe that no one mentioned the glaringly obvious classics: Seven Samurai, Yojimbo, and Sanjuro. Kagemusha was OK, and although the cinematography in Ran was breathtaking, it left me cold.

The best spear fight ever put on film is the one between Mifune and the enemy general (the name of the actor escapes me; he's the same guy who played Sugata Sanshiro in Kurosawa's film of the same name) in the uncut version of "Hidden Fortress"

The "Samurai" trilogy starring Mifune blew, big time. The version starring Takashi Hideki (Musashi) Matsuzaka Keiko (Otsu - hubba hubba!) and Tamiya Jiro (Sasaki Kojiro) was much better. The English title is "Sword of Fury", I think.

Anything with Ichikawa Raizo, the coolest guy ever to swing a sword.

I vote with Cady on the "Kentucky Fried Movie" thing. Hilarious.

Bruce Lee was good, but the best part about his movies is how the "Japanese" villains all put their hakama on backwards (ROFLMFAO!). I also get the sneaking suspicion that aside from Chuck Norris, nobody in any of his movies knew how to fight, which, of course, made him look really good. Still, his stuff, as entertaining as it was, was pure chop socky entertainment, and I have to question the MA outlook of anybody who thinks that his movies were a depiction of anything resembling real budo.

Tampopo is an inspired film, one of the best, although I'm not sure it had much to with budo. It was not only a touching human story of success in the face of great odds (OK, so maybe there is a budo connection), but it is an incredibly perceptive commentary on the foibles of Japanese society. The scene of the big-shot company men being humiliated by the company lackey in the fancy restaurant is absolutely priceless, and the climactic scene where Tampopo finally succeeds in making the perfect bowl of noodles is one of the most moving scenes in film.

Oh yeah, Iron and Silk.

For Western stuff:

"Ivanhoe" with Robert Taylor, Elizabeth Taylor, and George Sanders. Great jousting and a really cool ax vs. morganstern (mace-and-chain) battle at the end.

"Robin Hood" with Errol Flynn and Basil Rathbone. 'Nuff said.

"The Sea Hawk" with Errol Flynn.

"The Adventures of Don Juan" with Errol Flynn.

"Knights of the Black Cross" (Polish, 1960, dir. by Aleksander Ford) The best ax-and-shield fight ever put on film.

"The Princess Bride" One of the best rapier duels ever seen.

Earl

PS Based on the trailer I saw, the new Ang Lee film with Chow Yun Fat and Michelle Yeoh, I think ("Crouching Dragon, Hidden Tiger" or something like that) is going to kick major chop-socky ass. The trailer featured incerdible (albeit camera-trick aided) stunts of people doing things like running up the trunk of a stalk of bamboo and perching like birds on the top, with the bamboo bending under their weight, as they battle it out with swords. I think the movie's supposed to be out in December.

[Edited by Earl Hartman on 10-20-2000 at 01:45 PM]

Gil Gillespie

24th October 2000, 14:05

I read all the posts wondering if anyone would mention "Harakiri." Way to go, Earl. It is a poignant memorable film and the climactic sword fight is the most beautifully choreographed and filmed in Japanese cinema IMO.

Another pearl not mentioned is the hauntingly beautiful "Heaven and Earth," about Shingen's rivalry with Kenshin, not to be confused with Vietnam war film of the same name. The mass samurai cavalry movements were so huge that those scenes had to be shot in Canada. Japan's horse population has never recovered from Nagashino, it seems. Plus it has become impossible to shoot wide shots in Japan without towers and silver cables, a serious disruption of 16th century continuity. John Ford had to stop using Monument Valley as location for his westerns for the same reason. Of course computer magic in post production has rendered that problem moot. There were "erasures" in most of the Irish and highlands locations in "Braveheart."

Serious budoka are prone to dismiss the "Ninja Turtles" series out of hand. As a scenic artist I was priviledged to work in the third and last one, a time travel story into feudal Japan. I'm rehashing a BC thread here but it fits. The MA stunt guys who played the 4 turtles were all world class fighters (Chinese, Korean, and Filipino). During our long weeks of construction, plastering, and scenic painting, fight choreographer Pat Johnson was blocking and rehearsing the fight sequences. But virtually no one appreciates the real challenge.

The turtles were blind! Those plastic eyeballs were opaque. The only vision possible was tiny slits below their colored bandanas. They would stage these raucous fight scenes in crowded hallways and other sets and freeze when the director called "cut." The turtles would shuffle off set between takes with wardrobe girls guiding their elbows. Plus those latex suits were hot! The wardrobe girls used hair driers with the heat elements removed to blow air into the suits. Those guys had no body fat; one of em even passed out. Not an easy gig.

It was the strongest art dept I've ever worked for. We did a 45 ft tall samurai castle in the abandoned aircraft hanger that served as our sound stage. An hour away in breathtaking Oregon moutains we did a farm village that I'll rank right up there with Kurosawa's in "Seven Samurai." The waterfalls and rocky beaches around Astoria, OR are all drop dead beautiful and you ought to check out "TM Ninja Turtles Pt III." I'll bet you enjoy it more than you expect to. . .

And I can always say I worked on the only samurai movie ever produced in the USA.

Cady Goldfield

24th October 2000, 15:00

Gil,
Your mention of Pat Johnson brought back fond memories of his walk-on role in Bruce Lee's "Enter the Dragon." He is just priceless as the loan shark's thug who is sent to extract payment from John Saxon's "Roper" character (who is playing golf at a posh club despite being broke).

Johnson's classic B-movie line is: "It's the dough, Roper, or we gotta break somethin'!"

:)

And, of course, he has another fine bit in Jackie Chan's "The Big Brawl," playing yet another thug who gets trashed (this time by Chan) while in the employ of the mob boss played by Jose Ferrer.

Oh yeah, later in life he gets to be a tournament ref in "The Karate Kid." Not as colorful as his '70s parts, but Mr. Johnson does manage to keep himself in the action.

Ah, Hollywood!

Cady

Earl Hartman

24th October 2000, 16:53

Gil:

Glad there's somebody else out there who appreciates Seppuku.

Not to burst your bubble, but I thought that, aside from the battle scenes, which were far too pretty for my tastes, "Heaven and Earth" really sucked. It was as though the screenwriters and the director all sat down and said, "OK, how many Nipponesque cliches can we jam into one film?" Cherry blossoms? Check. Opaque and poorly explained motivations masquerading as mysterious samurai honor? Check. Big, pretty, color-coded battles to show how aesthetic the Japanese are? Check. It was strictly by the numbers and everyone was just going through the motions. Pretty, but empty.

Anybody here ever see the version of "Chushingura" directed by Inagaki Hiroshi? I think it was made in 1962. I remember that it played at the local art house cimena for a WHOLE YEAR when I was a kid, and it, along with "Gate of Hell" and "Rashomon", was one of the films that put Japanese cinema on the international map. I still like it, koto music and cherry blossom costume drama that it is, since the actors playing Oishi and Kira were so good, but most Japanese I've talked to find it kind of laughable. Why? It stars Kayama Yuzo as Asano. Kayama was primarily a crooner type pop singer and an actor in frothy sports-car-and-cardigan-sweater bobby sox teen romances; he was sort of the Japanese Pat Boone. For most Japanese, the idea that a teen pop idol would star in the national epic is just plain funny. Still, the final battle scene is really wonderful, in an over the top, stylized Kabuki sort of way. The scene with the guy using two swords to hold off hordes of attackers is quite good. Also, Mifune does a priceless scenery-chewing turn as the sake-swilling spear master who befriends one of the Ako clansmen. Still, it's basically hagiography, but well done for all that.

Oh yeah, Furin Kazan (Samurai Banners) starring Mifune as Yamamoto Kansuke and Nakamura Kinnosuke as Takeda Shingen is good for people who like big, overdone costume dramas. It's also directed by Inagaki, and is very heavy on the heroic samurai angle.

Earl

[Edited by Earl Hartman on 10-24-2000 at 11:55 AM]

Gil Gillespie

25th October 2000, 02:55

Earl

No problem your disliking "Heaven and Earth." Different strokes. My gig is making movies good to look at. Some of my best work has been out of focus behind dreadful actors and scripts! I still enjoy "Heaven and Earth" because of the look and the mood. The logistics of those cavalry maneuvers were daunting and maybe can only be appreciated by someone in the business.

I enjoyed your reference to "Gate of Hell," one of the flat out prettiest movies ever made. I first watched it in Japan. There's a national holiday in early autumn devoted to cleaning ancestors' graves & preparing for the harvest & national tv shows "Gate of Hell" that day every year.

Funny you mentioned an actor playing a samurai who was more known for his dashing fluff roles. The guy who portrayed Sasaki Kojiro in Inagaki's "Samurai" trilogy was a dashing ladies' man known for his (at the time/ mid 50s) scandalous womanizing. His name escapes me. It must have been a challenge teaching him Kojiro's tsubame gaeshi sword move (which he pulls off at the very beginning of Part 3).

On my first film gig in 1989 I worked with Charles Ziarko, a veteran UPM (unit production manager). I asked him who were the most professional actors he ever worked with. He said Henry Fonda and Toshiro Mifune. He had just completed the "Shogun" miniseries in Japan and said Mifune was always on time, never complained or requested "star" priviledges, and was actually a humorous element on the set. Mifune was deep into his 60s at this time and during one take he was thrown from his horse. Everyone naturally rushed up to this national hero, but he refused all assistance, brushed himself off, remounted and did several more takes on the same horse. Nice to know that sometimes actors you've admired are really worth it.

Earl Hartman

25th October 2000, 16:53

Gil:

Nice anecdote about Mifune. Still, of all of the period dramas I've seen, I'd have to say that "Shogun" was the worst. I know I'll take flak for this, but I thought it just stunk to high heaven. It is very hard for me to refrain from laughing out loud when people tell me how much they learned about Japan (!) from watching it.

The acting was peculiarly wooden, but I think this is probably the result of a foreigner directing Japanese actors. The didn't act like Japanese actors in any period drama I had ever seen. Also, the general slant of the narrative, where the bushi were usually portrayed as heartless and cruel as opposed to the noble Englishman (e.g., the daimyo of the fief where Adams was staying threatening his vassals with execution if Adams doesn't learn how to speak Japanese, and Adams rescuing the heroine (can't remember her name) from her abusive husband, etc.) really stuck in my craw.

The biggest hoot was the public self-immolation of the heroine that, as I recall, was stopped at the last second. In front of a big audience, she ties her legs together and is about to stab herself in the throat while a male second stands by ready to cut her head off (kaishaku). I may be way off base here, but I cannot imagine a woman killing herself in public in that manner and being given the honor of having a kaishaku-nin attend her, as though she were a male bushi committing seppuku. If I'm wrong, I'm more than willing to be corrected, but to the best of my knowledge, such a thing was never done.

Of course, the funniest part was watching Adams, who probably never picked up a katana in his life, kill a bunch of ninja in the battle on the ship. Jeez Louise, give me a break, OK?

Earl

Margaret Lo

25th October 2000, 18:43

Earl - you are so right about Shogun. It is the most hilarious example of a movie that plays to starry eyed westerners. Same vein as Madam Butterfly. Everytime I see some of those scenes of the heroine with Richard Chamberlain I want to laugh and puke at the same time. BTW was she Japanese even? I recall her looking very Chinese.

Plus Richard Chamberlain is famously gay, and the idea of him wielding a sword and playing the super stud also causes me convulsions of laughter.

Also - there was a movie called Warriors of Virtue that looked and was horrible. In my defense, I noticed that the stunt work was all Honkie (Hong Kong) action guys and took it out. Guess what, it takes place in a fantasy world where the Warriors are big KANGAROOS. with Ice-T in Roo Drag. Some of these stuntmen did beautiful WuShu forms all made up like giant Roos!!!

Funny and a waste of good kungfu. Ever taste Roo Soup anyone?

-M-

Margaret Lo

25th October 2000, 18:53

Also - there is a movie called "The Actor's Revenge" made in Japan in the 1960s, it takes place in the Edo Period.

Our hero is a Kabuki actor who plays female roles. He/she is constantly wearing female clothes and mannerisms while tons of women fall in love with him (or her?!) He/she also happens to be a trained swordmaster who is bent on taking revenge against those who murdered his parents.

All this occurrs while he talks in a falsetto, wearing a purple kimono embroidered with wisteria. He fights that way too and quite nicely.

I actually recommend this one. :D

-M-

Mark Brecht

25th October 2000, 19:10

Originally posted by Margaret Lo
Everytime I see some of those scenes of the heroine with Richard Chamberlain I want to laugh and puke at the same time. BTW was she Japanese even? I recall her looking very Chinese.

Hmm, definitly Japanese. Her name is "something" Shimada i think, she was quite famous in Japan. I saw some recent pics of her, where she was not wearing to much... :D

Earl Hartman

25th October 2000, 19:40

Hey, Margaret. The more you say, the better you sound. It seems to me that we agree on just about everything that's come up on the boards so far. Cool. Didn't know Chamberlain was gay, but then I don't pay too much attention to that sort of thing.

BTW, have you ever seen this weird kung-fu fantasy flick that takes place in SF Chinatown called "Big Trouble in Little China"? It stars Kurt Russell and a bunch of other people that I can't remember. It was really a scream, chop socky on acid.

Earl

Margaret Lo

25th October 2000, 20:20

Hi Earl - I guess we were separated at birth. I saw Big Trouble too, I thought it was not too bad.

Howabout movies with specific weapons? I do not recall any archery movies except, of course Robin Hood.

-M-

Gavin Gunavardhana

25th October 2000, 21:36

I love the Hong Kong stunt guys and the shapes they pull but I would like to recommend two films that are not even martial arts films,"Bad Day at Black Rock" and "Grosse Point Blank." The thing I like about these films is that they show a little of the moral code of the martial artist rather than just the ability to fight.

In "Bad Day at Black Rock," Spencer Tracy refuses to respond to Ernest Borgnine's taunts in the diner and tries several times to leave without fighting. However, when it is clear that this is not going to be possible, he seizes the initiative and soundly beats Borgnine with a few deft knifehands and wrist throws.

In "Grosse Point Blank," John Cusack meets the old school bully at a reunion. The guy is looking for a fight but Cusack defuses the situation with communication and the bully ends up giving him a hug. In the next scene, Cusack is attacked by an assassin (Benny "The Jet" Urquidez)and it is clear from the way he fights that he could have easily defeated the school bully if he had wanted to.

Both the protagonists only fought when they had to which makes a change from the normal perception given of martial artists are presented in films.

On a note of trivia, anyone else notice that Cusack uses a hi-tech version of the "poison dripping down a wire over a sleeping victim's mouth" tactic from "You Only Live Twice"? I'm sure I read somewhere that this was based on an old ninja story.

Just my 2 yen...

Gavin

Steve Williams

25th October 2000, 22:52

Originally posted by Gavin Gunavardhana
On a note of trivia, anyone else notice that Cusack uses a hi-tech version of the "poison dripping down a wire over a sleeping victim's mouth" tactic from "You Only Live Twice"? I'm sure I read somewhere that this was based on an old ninja story.

Just my 2 yen...

Gavin

Talking of "You Only Live Twice" this must rank as one of the WORST portrayal of MA in a movie, specifically the ninja training at Himejiand the Sean Connery makeup. :cry:
Anybody want to start a new thread :up:

Gil Gillespie

26th October 2000, 05:16

Earl you have the cold slant of the film critic about you. It's hard to argue with your takes because you are correct in the absolute. Problem being absolutism at its core. These films by nature are geared not toward satisfying the budoka with his esoteric overviews, but to entertain the great mass of filmviewers, who know virtually nothing of budo and care less. Can we thus allow some expected trespasses?

"Shogun" is open to all the above attacks but the fact remains no such expense was ever before or since expended to bring a feudal Japanese story before the common USA tv Joe (buuurp). It's easy to sit back and laugh at the gaps in what we know to be historical accuracy, but the attempt was highroad, the production value was exceptional, the cinematography redefined television depth of field, and the "look" was more lush then we've seen since. The acting as "wooden?" we're talking tv here. "Shogun" made no pretense to being the next level of "The Price Of Tomatoes."

Clavell's "novel" told the story of Tokugawa's (Toranaga in the story) maneuvering leading up to Sekigahara in an understandable entertaining narrative. Is anyone doing more generally acceptable and accurate work? "Joe" the Monday Night Football addict, has he ever had a chance to see a anything like "Shogun" in his myopic view of the world? Let's be gentle y'all.

"Shogun" was produced for mass consumption and to generate profits. It was a smash. Folks who thrill to learning "so much" about Japan from it, how can we be down on them? What would we have wished them to learn about Japan on commercial television? Right----NOTHING.

So now we're banging Richard Chamberlain for being gay. Most of the exalted samurai daimyo and warrior chieftains we exalt were bisexual to be kind. The homophobic Japanese of today choose to avoid it, but it's there. Point being, what difference does it make? Takeda Shingen remains the ultimate strategist and warrior regardless of his proclivities. Richard Chamberlain brought depth and passion to his character. But I'm not a critic. I just like what I like. Anyone brought samurai Japan into our living rooms any better?

Rob

26th October 2000, 08:36

Gil

If I might just leap in here. I understand completly what you're saying and in some ways I agree. Certainly as someone who has long admired Japanese culture it was hugely exciting to see it potrayed on UK tv in a big budget way.

I also take your point about Joe Public being exposed to something they probably had never seen before. Unfortuntely where perhaps you and I saw a swash buckling adventure set during dramatic times in a fascinating feudel culture, mostly what Joe Public saw was.

1) he he Swords are way cool

2) Those evil Japs (sic) torture and kill people at the drop of a hat, not like us civilised Westerners

3) Deep down all oriental women are secretly wishing for a 'real western man'

Even in the original novel there is a scene early on where Anjin-san is put in a hot bath just so that we can all find out he has larger than average genitals !!

I like Shogun but only because I choose to ignore the fairly blatent sub text, I'm less convinced that a lot of other people do.

BTW - for an interesting potrayal of use and abuse of power and some cool blues music one of my fav MA movies would be Roadhouse.

Margaret Lo

26th October 2000, 12:45

Originally posted by Steve Williams
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gavin Gunavardhana
[B]
Talking of "You Only Live Twice" this must rank as one of the WORST portrayal of MA in a movie, specifically the ninja training at Himejiand the Sean Connery makeup. :cry:
Anybody want to start a new thread :up:

The makeup on Sean Connery was really funny. But the final battle scene with the ninjas shooting down the roof of the subterranean lair of Blofeld was quite nicely done I thought. Fun movie - plus in most Bond movies he gets roughed up a little by one of the Bond babes with martial arts moves.

Also, lest we forget - Mrs. Peel in The Avengers!! My karate-chopping heroine in black leather.

-M-

Gil Gillespie

26th October 2000, 15:53

"Roadhouse"------very cool easily overlooked flick. Good call.

And Emma Peel. Be still my heart! The fantasy of my entire generation. She was beyond cool. The role that never should have been redone by anyone else! (Along with Tommy Lee Jones' Capt Woodrow F Call).

Earl Hartman

26th October 2000, 16:51

Gil:

Sorry for being so highbrow, but bad is bad. The question of whether or not Shogun was better than the alternative (nothing) is an interesting one, but I still thought it was just a bad movie. It may have had really good production values, but since I am not in the business, as you are, the prettiness of form is not enough to make me appreciate something if it lacks content.

Look, I didn't like Ran very much either (what?! I hear you gasp). The cinematography and production values were staggeringly good, but the film completely lacked the heartfelt humanity of Kurosawa's earlier, and better, films. The Seven Samurai was a sweeping epic, but that is not what made it one of the best films ever made by anyone anywhere. What made it good was its sensitive portrayal of real humans in dire straits. People acted like real people, not because the plot required that they do something. All Ran had was pretty armies and Nakadai shamelessly devouring every single piece of scenery that he could sink his teeth into. In the climactic battle, with untold gallons of irridescent, fire-engine red blood soaking everything in sight, I just laughed. I thought that Kurosawa had lost his mind. I know that it was supposed to represent the horror of senseless death in pointless battle, or something deep and existential like that, but because of its obvious artificiality it had the opposite effect on me. So I'm picky. So sue me. Still, Kurosawa at his worst is light-years better than the best stuff most people can make. It is precisely because he was a god that I expected more from him.

Anyway, saying that Joe Sixpak is better off with Shogun is just saying that since the average US TV viewer is lazy (no argument from me on that one) we might as well give him an inferior product than nothing at all, and since the motive is profit anyway, we should pander to the misconceptions of the audience in order to make money. That's why Shogun gives us cruel Japanese and noble Westerners and beautiful Japanese women who are dying to be free of their abusive Japanese husbands and be made love to by a real (read: Caucasian) man. That is the problem with trying to learn anything of value from commercial television. I have no problem with people responding to something like Shogun on the level of entertainment, good or bad. However, it is absurd to think that entertainment, no matter how slick, is a good education.

That's why we have PBS.

Earl

Earl Hartman

26th October 2000, 16:58

Margaret:

You just keep getting better and better. You're an Avengers fan on top of everything else? Emma Peel is the goddess to end all goddesses, the ultimate fantasy and object of desire for all real men.

Screw Xena. All hail Emma Peel, Queen of Babelonia and Ruler of the Universe!

Earl

Margaret Lo

26th October 2000, 18:44

But Earl we date ourselves here, you have to be conscious in the 60s, 70s to know the Avengers. BTW - I am a fan of Diana Rigg and not so much a fan of the other actresses who played opposite Mr. Steed.

Diana Rigg is still on PBS - Mystery Theater with that velvety voice that accompanies all well trained English stage actors.

Xena was fun when she was bad. Her efforts at being a goody 2 shoes just bored me.

Of course let us not forget Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but that's a whole girly yet combative universe unto itself.
I like an action series that comes with beauty tips. :D

Gil - I understand your fondness for movies with visual appeal, even if weak in other areas: notable favorites on this level, Ran. I have not seen Heaven and Earth, now I'll look it up. Also cool is Bladerunner. Bottom line is, if its not a huge visual spectacle, I'll not shell out close to $10.00 for it in a theatre - its video time then.

My impression of Shogun however consisted of: cool swords, great hairdos, baaad English. :) Ultimately no harm done.

-M-

[Edited by Margaret Lo on 10-26-2000 at 01:54 PM]

Earl Hartman

26th October 2000, 19:03

Watch out. "Charlie's Angels" is due out in theaters any day now. Be afraid, be very afraid.

Earl Hartman

26th October 2000, 19:05

Margaret:

You mean there were other Mrs. Peels? Impossible.

Margaret Lo

26th October 2000, 19:48

Earl, I think the other actresses did not play Mrs. Peel but other characters. Hmm time to check out the videos of the Avengers.

I have a standing date with friends to see Charlie's Angels, it is our goal to yell at the screen during a crucial sequence the following wise words:

Oooooh girls don't break a nail!!! (simpering noises follow)

-M-

Gavin Gunavardhana

27th October 2000, 14:32

Originally posted by Margaret Lo
Earl, I think the other actresses did not play Mrs. Peel but other characters. Hmm time to check out the videos of the Avengers.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but there was another Mrs Peel. Uma Thurmann donned the famous catsuit for the big screen adaptation that flopped a couple of summers ago.

What were the producers thinking? :smash:

There is only one Steed and Mrs Peel.

As for the other actresses they are as follows. Honor Blackman played Kathy Gale to Patrick Macnee's Steed (before she played Pussy Galore in Goldfinger.) Honor Blackman also featured in a book on women's self-defence that was published in the 1960's. Then came Diana Rigg. She was followed by Linda Thorson as Tara King and Joanna Lumley succeeded her as Purdey.

I love all those 60's spy shows like the Avengers, Get Smart, Man from UNCLE and Mission Impossible. I hear worrying rumours that the Prisoner is next up for a big-screen revival. I wonder who Hollywood would cast to play No.6? On second thoughts, never mind...

Gil Gillespie

27th October 2000, 15:08

Earl, your post, as always, received big 10-4. There's nothing wrong with high standards, ever. Yes it does seem we look at films with different eyes. As hokey as Inagaki's "Samurai" trilogy is, there's just so many frames that are perfectly composed paintings. I do agree that "Seven Samurai" remains epic due more to its human poignancy than to any lasting achievement in fight choreography or sweeping camerawork.

Remember the old psychological profile "who is your favorite Beatle?" I offer that to budo film buffs: who was your favorite among the 7? Overwhelmingly it's the thin-faced swordsman who practices nukitsuke in the rain. I also favor "who's your favorite among original Temptations?" but I try to keep digressions to a minimum. . .

True, as hot as Uma Thurmann is, no one should have redone Emma Peel. Do you know that her father is Robert Thurmann, Professor of Religion at Columbia & fascinating lecturer & author on Tibetan Buddhism?

I ain't scared o' no Charlies' Angels!
(Yoda's voice): You wiiill be. . .

Gil Gillespie

27th October 2000, 15:32

Margaret, you just defined my whole priority of going to the movies. If it'll be the same on video (read ALL comedies) I wait for the video. I made sure to see "Gladiator" on big screen. I'll forever regret missing "Braveheart" and "Perfect Storm." I saw "Legend of the Fall" on both; in the theatre it nailed me to my seat/ on video it was just a nice story. Ditto "Last of the Mohicans."

Earl, as far as real education from the tube, I only WISH ol Joe would avail himself of PBS. Personally as far as network tv if there's not a ball bouncing around in it I live on History Ch, Discovery, A&E,& E-Budo! I miss all series. Never understood all the rage over Seinfeld. I checked it out once a year or so, but a. it wasn't funny and b. I didn't care about any of those characters. There's that human involvement, again.

Jeff Bristol

27th October 2000, 16:10

About the Shogun topic, I got about a quarter of the way through the novel and got tired of it. ALl the Japanese caharcters were the same, barbaric, brutal, uncaring, destructive, and, perhaps the worst crime of all, they all seemed to be.....GAY!!! So, for that reason I never saw the movie, but I know the type of movie. The problem is we never have enough people willing to actually study MA enough to pull off real scenes. I think the public would actually enjoy it mroe with mroe realistic fight scenes. I mean we've got Conan who has had a few months of sword training and it is a "classic" example of free-style swordsmanship? pshah.

But anyway, Charle's Angels'll be a hit if for no other reason than tight clothing and high kicks, all in all not a bad way to sell a movie.

Jeff Bristol

Steve Williams

27th October 2000, 16:25

Originally posted by Gil Gillespie
Margaret, you just defined my whole priority of going to the movies. If it'll be the same on video (read ALL comedies) I wait for the video. I made sure to see "Gladiator" on big screen. I'll forever regret missing "Braveheart" and "Perfect Storm." I saw "Legend of the Fall" on both; in the theatre it nailed me to my seat/ on video it was just a nice story. Ditto "Last of the Mohicans."

A little off topic but;

A good (not equal to) alternative to the movies is a large widescreen TV, a DVD player and 5.1 sound system or surround sound speakers.

This can still "blow you away" :shot: (and you get great extras on DVD)

Joachim

27th October 2000, 16:30

OFF TOPIC!

Originally posted by Jeff Bristol
About the Shogun topic, I got about a quarter of the way through the novel and got tired of it. ALl the Japanese caharcters were the same, barbaric, brutal, uncaring, destructive, and, perhaps the worst crime of all, they all seemed to be.....GAY!!! So, for that reason I never saw the movie(...)
Jeff Bristol

Are you serious? You do know the name Takeda Shingen, do you? Do you also happen to know the name Kousaka Danjou Masanobu? He is widely believed to have been a little bit more than just Shingen's constant companion. He wasn't the only one in Samurai culture, either.

Jeff Bristol

27th October 2000, 16:34

I know, I meant that Shogun overemphisized Japanese homosexuality. It seemed that he portrayed the majority of the japanese hierarchy as gay, which seems a bit of an exageration.

Jeff Bristol

27th October 2000, 16:52

In terms of good quality movies, my vote goes to The Seven Samurai. In terms of just plain brainless entertainment and humor, here's a partial list:

-Big Trouble in Little China - particularly the scene where Kurt Russell gets knocked out at the beginning of a fight scene, and wakes up just in time to hold his gun up to nobody.

-The first Indiana Jones movie - the fight scene in the village where Jones beats up all of the other sword wielding bad guys, and then finds himself face to face with a scimitar-wielding giant, and just shoots him!

-I saw a Bond movie about a week ago, and I could swear that a very young looking Jackie Chan was playing a sidekick role. This was the movie where there was a karate school in Hong Kong (no wushu?), and they shoot some scenes in a Muay Thai boxing hall.

-Phanton Menace. Silly fight scenes, but I still enjoyed them. I've heard rumors that the next Star Wars movie bad guys are going to be using kenpo techniques, instead of the wushu techniques of Darth Maul.

- The Last Dragon. Truly one of the worst martial arts movies EVER made! Featured a hero named "Bruce Leroy" and a villain named "Sho Nuff - the Shogun of Harlem." I can still hear my old kenpo instructor laughing his ass off telling me about this one!

-Let's not forget Lethal Weapon, where Riggs is supposed to be a tai chi practitioner and kicks butt on criminals using techniques that look nothing like tai chi!

-Mystery Science Theater did some great scenes on some of the really cheesey chop socky movies. Classic!

-Say Anything. The scene where John Cusack is teaching a kids kickboxing class, and, when his lost love walks in the door, he gets blindsided by one of his students, breaking his nose. I have to give Cusack credit, he's one of the few actors that I really like who actually appears to know something about martial arts.

-Don't forget Austin Powers and his "judo chops!", and the "Oww, that hurts! Really, who throws a shoe?"

-I wish I had seen the claymation battle between Jean Claude Van Damme and Steven Seagal.

-Any Pink Panther movies. Didn't Ed Parker play Kato in one of them?

-No one mentioned Kato from the Green Hornet series. Truly chop socky, but Bruce made the show for me when I was a kid (showing my age now).

-Any of the old Godzilla movies. I see those now and I start rolling!

-And how about the old Hong Kong Phooey cartoons?

One of my sempai does the best imitation I have ever heard of the atypical slimy, weasily, whiney guys in the chop sock movies. Gets me every time!

-BC

27th October 2000, 17:04

I'm a big fan of the SW movies too. Darth Maul was way too cool, and I can't believe they killed him off so soon! He was far more evil and menacing than Darth Vader in the first three movies. His double-lightsabre was very cool. I wonder if Speilberg will ever have any of the characters wield two light sabres at a time, or maybe some lightshuriken?

Steve Williams

27th October 2000, 17:05

Originally posted by BC
-And how about the old Hong Kong Phooey cartoons?

-BC

Have to agree with that one, though not strictly a movie, it has everything you could want from a good MA movie.

Steve Williams

27th October 2000, 17:11

Originally posted by BC
I'm a big fan of the SW movies too. Darth Maul was way too cool, and I can't believe they killed him off so soon! He was far more evil and menacing than Darth Vader in the first three movies. His double-lightsabre was very cool. I wonder if Speilberg will ever have any of the characters wield two light sabres at a time, or maybe some lightshuriken?

Apparently Yoda will have some major (kick-a**) fight scenes, and I hear tell he will wield two small lightsabers (escrima style) :cool:

Earl Hartman

27th October 2000, 17:30

Gil:

Seinfeld rules! I never watched it to get inspiration for life or to emote for the characters portrayed, I watched it to laugh. For many years, it was the funniest thing on television. Come to think of it, since it is in syndication, it's STILL the funniest thing on television.

As I have said many times on this BB in many other contexts, the real meaning of the Way is that it must be true to the essence of the thing itself. Seinfeld showed a true understanding of the Way as it operates in comedy. What is the purpose of comedy? To make people laugh. Thus, anything that serves that end is in harmony with the Way, anything that does not is superfluous and must be removed. Seinfeld has said that the only thing they worried about in making the show was whether something was funny; they never worried about hugs, warm touchy feelies, social commentary, or trying to make a philosophical or moral point. Consequently, it was tremendously funny in the purest sense. The beauty of this is that the viewer, based upon his/her outlook on life, supplies his/her own commentary. The reason so many people had a problem with the show is that they wanted it to espouse a certain point of view or proselytize for a specific social/moral/political agenda (like the Cosy Show, for instance), something the show steadfastly refused to do, more power to them. Good art always lets the viewer make up his/her own mind as opposed to beating them over the head with an Agenda. At the same time it was a very moral show, since the characters always were punished in some way for their shallowness, greed and cowardice.

My favorite samurai of the Seven was definirtely the leader, played by one of the best actors of all time, Shimura Takashi. As far as fight choreography is concerned, one of the best scenes in the film, from the point of view of sword technique, is where Shimura takes a hasso stance in the face of a charging horseman, and, as the horseman comes within range, adjusts his ma-ai and steps in under the horseman's attack, dispatching him with a single stroke. Beautiful.

Earl

[Edited by Earl Hartman on 10-27-2000 at 02:02 PM]

Joseph Svinth

27th October 2000, 19:13

Earl -- Looking at your list of favorite Hollywood films, I think you'll find that the B-unit director was Yakima Canutt or his proteges. As stuntman, Canutt's best known stunt is of course being dragged under the stagecoach in John Ford's "Stagecoach"; as second-unit director, he arranged the action scenes in "Ivanhoe," "Ben-Hur," "Spartacus," etc. For online background see http://www.surfnetinc.com/chuck/canutt.htm and http://www.win.net/~ltreed/yak/index.htm . In print, note that Oklahoma just re-released Canutt's autobiography; see http://www.ou.edu/oupress/canu2927.htm . It's a fun book, and at $16.95, affordable, too.

"Cathy Gale" (Honor Blackman) was among television’s first heroines to be shown having significant prowess in Asian martial arts. She did what South African professional wrestler Joe Robinson called judo. (Really it was closer to professional wrestling.) She got a brown belt from Robinson, but standards definitely were not equivalent to Budokwai. She left the show to play Pussy Galore. This introduced "Emma Peel" (Diana Rigg). They wanted something that looked different, so had her do Shotokan rather than judo. Fight arrangers included Ray Austin and stunt doubles included Cyd Childs. I've written Childs hoping she would have something to say for InYo, but no such luck to date. Excepting Blackman, Steed's sidekicks generally used body doubles for the MA sequences; the same doubles generally worked the show regardless of who played the female lead. For additional details about Robinson, see "The South African Family Robinson" in Robert W. Smith's Martial Musings and for more about Austin, Child, and The Avengers, see http://www.the-avengers.net/avstunts.html. In print, try Dave Rogers, "The Complete Avengers" (New York: St. Martin’s Press, 1989).

For you Xena-philes, see http://whoosh.org/issue33/patton1.html (Lori C. Patton, "Working out Your Own Salvation with Xena, Warrior Princess.") See also Jessica Amanda Salmonson's article "Amazon Heroic Fantasy" at http://www.violetbooks.com/amazon.html ; "Babes with Blades" at http://www.best.com/~jendave/BabesWithBlades/index.html and "Xena: Warrior Princess as Feminist Camp" at http://www.mirrorblue.com/annex/jpc .

Now, for some of the worst MA ever filmed, let's not forget The King and his sidekick, Ed Parker. A good site for this is Shane Peterson's "Elvis and the Martial Arts" at http://www.uga.edu/cuda/tigerman.html.

[Edited by Joseph Svinth on 10-27-2000 at 02:22 PM]

27th October 2000, 19:39

[i]Originally posted by Janty Chattaw

Speilberg didn't do the Star Wars movies it was George Lucas, by the way. Rumor has it that Darth Maul's clone will be coming back in either Episode 2 or 3. Because soon they will be going into the clone wars. Lucas has stated he is going to show people why Yoda is the master of the Jedi. Supposedly he will be sporting a yellow/orange light saber. I wonder if they are going to get mini me from Austin Powers to play yoda :D [/B]

Oops, my bad. :o :smash: How about Tatu from Fantasy Island for Yoda? "Nice to me you shall be or teach you kali I will not!"

Gavin Gunavardhana

27th October 2000, 22:50

Originally posted by Steve Williams

Originally posted by BC
I'm a big fan of the SW movies too. Darth Maul was way too cool, and I can't believe they killed him off so soon! He was far more evil and menacing than Darth Vader in the first three movies. His double-lightsabre was very cool. I wonder if Speilberg will ever have any of the characters wield two light sabres at a time, or maybe some lightshuriken?

Apparently Yoda will have some major (kick-a**) fight scenes, and I hear tell he will wield two small lightsabers (escrima style) :cool:

Darth Maul rocks! I heard that the new Sith guy was a young shorinji kempo expert from Japan. I can't remember his name but I saw his picture on a Star Wars website. (BTW anyone else seen the new LEGO commercial featuring Darth Maul and Boba Fett?)

The cheesiest martial arts scene I have seen is the one at the end of "Doc Savage." It even has subtitles to tell you when the fighting style changes.

That said, I just watched "Orgazmo" from the makers of "South Park" which features a mormon martial arts expert who becomes a superhero by way of porno films. Truly bizarre but quite funny and the fights weren't *that* bad.

"Ben, use your hamster style!" :laugh:

Son of Thunder

27th October 2000, 22:50

-I wish I had seen the claymation battle between Jean Claude Van Damme and Steven Seagal.

Ah, yes. Celebrity Deathmatch. JCVD actually fought Jackie Chan, with guest referee Chuck Norris. Dang funny show. Steven Seagal fought David Spade, which was even funnier than the VanDamme/Chan fight!

I'm a big fan of the SW movies too. Darth Maul was way too cool, and I can't believe they killed him off so soon! He was far more evil and menacing than Darth Vader in the first three movies. His double-lightsabre was very cool. I wonder if Speilberg will ever have any of the characters wield two light sabres at a time, or maybe some lightshuriken?

It is at this point that I beat your head in. Darth Maul more menacing than Vader??!!?? I think you need to rent the original trilogy again. Maul was cool, no argument, but Maul struck me as more of pit bull snarling for blood, while Vader projected an aura of controlled power which ranks him above even the Kurgan in the ranks of villians.
Watch the conference scene from Star Wars again, and repeat after me: "I find your lack of faith distressing." Oooo... I got chills just typing it.

kenkyusha

27th October 2000, 23:01

Originally posted by Son of Thunder
[QUOTE][snip]
Watch the conference scene from Star Wars again, and repeat after me: "I find your lack of faith distressing." Oooo... I got chills just typing it. :nono:
Dangit man!!!! The quote is "I find your lack of faith disturbing..." (as Admiral Motti begins to choke...). Okay, raise your hand if you need a life *raises hand*...

Be well,
Jigme

*is there a 'hello, I'm a sad, Star Wars geek emoticon?*

Steve Williams

27th October 2000, 23:32

For more Star Wars stuff, and yes it does deserve to be in this thread, what other group of movies so well illustrates budo ideals and swordplay without being set in feudal Japan?

Go to http://www.starwars.com/ :smilejapa

Sheridan

28th October 2000, 01:08

I have four words for the best MA portrayal.

TEENAGE MUTANT NINJA TURTLES!

:eek:

NO! NO, NO; THAT WAS A JOKE, DON'T KILL ME!

Anyways, somebody mentioned Godzilla? I have a friend that swears he saw Godzilla Irimi-nage some monster ass in one of the later japanese flicks.

Steve Williams

11th November 2000, 19:37

OK a last attempt to revive this thread, (seems talk of the ninja turtles killed it :laugh: ).

"Monty Python and the Holy Grail"

Now what better portrayal of MA could there be, you have honour, swordplay, and THE BLACK KNIGHT. :up:;)

(Its only a flesh wound........... I've had worse..........)

Hank Irwin

11th November 2000, 20:48

Originally posted by glad2bhere
I have a copy of THE YAKUZA which is pretty much transparent from being run though my VCR so much. The concept of On and Giri are not something that is particularly easy to define or explain and the movie does quite a nice job. IMHO the final show-down is probably some of the more authentic looking sword work I've ever seen.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

You would not believe the people that do not know what "giri", obligation, duty, commitment, and loyalty mean !

Sensei Hank Irwin

Son of Thunder

11th November 2000, 20:57

Well, I went and saw "Charlie's Angels."

:rolleyes: *sigh* :rolleyes:

That had to be one of dumbest movies ever (and this is from someone who has seen "Manos: Hands of Fate"). I'll summarize the entire movie for you here: Everybody look at Drew's cleavage! Everybody look at Lucy's rump! Everybody look at Cameron in a bikini! Oh, yeah, and there's some kind of conflict and the girls fight and win. The end.

Am I the only one here who is starting to get sick of Matrix-like kung-fu-on-wires? Enough already!! When (or if) they ever come out with the Spider-Man movie, then I'll believe somebody running along walls and kicking twenty people at once in mid-leap. At least Bill Murray was funny.

[Edited by Son of Thunder on 11-11-2000 at 03:59 PM]

Hank Irwin

11th November 2000, 20:58

Any of you guy's seen the video of Klinghon Blat'lak(I know I spelled that wrong) training? C'mon??!!

Sensei Hank Irwin

Hank Irwin

12th November 2000, 00:45

I saw this, and I thought it was pure JUNK!!!

Sensei Hank Irwin

Hank Irwin

12th November 2000, 00:54

Originally posted by Son of Thunder
Well, I went and saw "Charlie's Angels."

:rolleyes: *sigh* :rolleyes:

That had to be one of dumbest movies ever (and this is from someone who has seen "Manos: Hands of Fate"). I'll summarize the entire movie for you here: Everybody look at Drew's cleavage! Everybody look at Lucy's rump! Everybody look at Cameron in a bikini! Oh, yeah, and there's some kind of conflict and the girls fight and win. The end.

Am I the only one here who is starting to get sick of Matrix-like kung-fu-on-wires? Enough already!! When (or if) they ever come out with the Spider-Man movie, then I'll believe somebody running along walls and kicking twenty people at once in mid-leap. At least Bill Murray was funny.

Would definetly like to see Peter Parker doing some Shaolin!!

Sensei Hank Irwin

[Edited by Son of Thunder on 11-11-2000 at 03:59 PM]

kenkyusha

12th November 2000, 16:52

Originally posted by Steve Williams
For more Star Wars stuff, and yes it does deserve to be in this thread, what other group of movies so well illustrates budo ideals and swordplay without being set in feudal Japan?

Go to http://www.starwars.com/ :smilejapa
Also try,

http://www.theforce.net . Lots of stuff including fan films (like Troops), multimedia humor and updates about the upcoming movies.

For a breakdown of individual lightsaber fighting styles, http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/ls/sabres12.htm .

Another silly multimedia site: http://starwars.scour.net/Fan_Multimedia/ ... okay, this really is getting sad!

Be well,
Jigme

Steve Williams

12th November 2000, 17:00

Originally posted by kenkyusha
okay, this really is getting sad!

Be well,
Jigme

No This is really sad http://www.c-60.org/starwars_legos/sworde.htm

Filip Poffe

12th November 2000, 20:29

Well, yesterday I've seen "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" in a theater here in Belgium and it's really AMAZING !!!

I won't tell more but make sure you see this movie !

All the best,

Doug Daulton

13th November 2000, 13:54

Originally posted by Steve Williams - For more Star Wars stuff, and yes it does deserve to be in this thread, what other group of movies so well illustrates budo ideals and swordplay without being set in feudal Japan?

Steve and Jigme are both on the mark here ... as it is widely thought in film circles that Lucas was largely inspired by 1958 Akira Kurosawa/Toshiro Mifune classic ... The Hidden Fortress.

If you follow the link below, it includes a brief outline of the events as they unfold. Here are the characters ...

Princess Leia = "Gilded Princess"

Han Solo & Luke Skywalker = "Loyal General" (split into 2 characters)

C3PO & R2D2 = "Pair of Misfits"

The Evil Empire = "Warriors and bandits attempting to loot their gold and valuable possessions"

The Death Star = "The Hidden Fortress"

What the advert does not include is the fact that our cheif villain wears mostly black and ends up with horrific facial disfigurations.

Omoishiroi ne' ("very interesting ...isn't it") :D

It is not a 1:1 translation, but the storyline is definitely similar. And before any diehard fans cry foul .. I believe Lucas is on record as saying it was a major influence for Star Wars: A New Hope.

In any event, check it out if you haven't already.

http://www.1worldfilms.com/Japan/hiddenfortress.htm

_________________
Doug Daulton
Opaque Sith Lord

[Edited by Doug Daulton on 11-13-2000 at 09:02 AM]

Doug Daulton

13th November 2000, 14:07

Originally posted by Steve Williams
No This is really sad http://www.c-60.org/starwars_legos/sworde.htm[/B]

WOW! I hope these guys actually work for Lego ... or at the very least get a discount! :D

Earl Hartman

13th November 2000, 17:13

Doug:

I know that Lucas says he was inspired by Kurosawa's work, and that C3PO and R2D2 were inspired by the two farmers in the Hidden Fortress, but other than surface trappings, there is nothing of Kurosawa in Lucas' work. Indeed, if there is a single filmmaker alive today who purports to admire Kurosawa and draw inspiration from him while utterly misunderstanding the essence of his work, it is Lucas. It is laughable for a shameless commercial hack like Lucas to dare to compare himself to a giant like Kurosawa.

In any case, the analogy doesn't hold. In Kurosawa's film, the Hidden Fortress is the concealed mountain fort where Mifune is hidden away with the Princess and the other Good Guys. It is not the Death Star where all the Bad Guys are, the location of which everyone knows. This is what I mean by pirating the surface appearance while misunderstanding the essence. Kurosawa's work was all about standing convention on its head and puncturing pious myths. This is proven out by the real title of Kurosawa's work, which is "Kakushi Toride no San Akunin", or "Three Bad Men in a Hidden Fortress". The three bad men are the two farmers AND MIFUNE. Why is Mifune bad? In the traditional Japanese conception, Mifune isn't bad, he is the epitome of bushi honor: he sacrifices everything, including his sister, to resuce the princess. Yet, the Princess execrates him for doing so. Not only that, Mifune's enemy in the film happily turns traitor to his lord to resuce the princess and the gold. The great thing about the film is how Kurosawa turns everything on its head. In his film, people act like people, they don't fulfill roles. I always cheer when the enemy general, as he is helping Mifune and the Princess escape, turns to his erstwhile allies, says "Uragiri gomen!" (Pardon me for turning traitor!"), jumps on his horse, and high-tails it out of there. Priceless.

Lucas, on the other hand, is in the business of selling predictable, hackneyed, cookie-cutout Heroic Myths a la Joseph Campbell, where all the players are two-dimensional cardboard martinets acting according to a pre-determined plot meant to Illustrate Universal Truths. Since we all know how its going to end, the only thing that can make it interesting is how much humanity the actors can bring to their roles. In this Lucas fails utterly, spending all of his time on special effects designed to wow 10 year olds and get them to buy all of the video games and commerical tie-ins. In the meantime, Lucas actually seems to think that he is some master stroyteller carrying on some ancient and honorable tradition of teaching the young people Great Truths when in reality he is just a common, garden variety commerical huckster out to make a lot of money. He isn't worthy to wash Kurosawa's underwear.

May the Farce be with you, man. Whatever.

[Edited by Earl Hartman on 11-13-2000 at 01:17 PM]

Doug Daulton

13th November 2000, 18:37

Originally posted by Earl Hartman
Kurosawa's work was all about standing convention on its head and puncturing pious myths. This is proven out by the real title of Kurosawa's work, which is "Kakushi Toride no San Akunin", or "Three Bad Men in a Hidden Fortress". The three bad men are the two farmers AND MIFUNE.

[Lucas] isn't worthy to wash Kurosawa's underwear.

May the Farce be with you, man. Whatever.

Earl:

As always, your understanding and POV on Japanese culture is most enlightening.

In this case, your insights re: the real title of the "The Hidden Fortress" are particularly interesting. I first discovered the film (and Kurosawa) through Lucas' reference and his ardor for Kurosawa. So, I watched it looking for SW comparisons. And while I took more away from the film than the SW hooks, obviously I missed the deeper cultural context. I will of course have to watch it again. Thanks for the eye-opener.

For the record, I in no way meant to imply the two films are on an equal footing ... only to call out the connection for others who might not know about it. Since discovering him via Lucas, I have become a huge Kurosawa fan. I love "Seven Samurai" (of course), "Ran" (King Lear), "Throne of Blood" (Macbeth), "Yojimbo", "Sanjuro", "Kagemusha" and "Dreams". I have "Akahige" but haven't had time to watch it yet. While I think you are a bit too harsh on Lucas' skills as a storyteller, I agree he doesn't hold a candle to Kurosawa.

Speaking of storytelling and turning things on their heads ... how about "Rashamon". Kurosawa's three-person POV story of rape and betrayal redefined storytelling for all filmmakers who followed (see Pulp Fiction among others). And while I could have done without Richard Gere (fine actor, but doesn't look very Asian American to me), perhaps my favorite Kurosawa film is "Rhapsody in August". What an amazing story about the loss of family ties/traditions and the long range impact of the Nagasaki bombing.

I am trying to find a video store that carries some of Kurosawa's "detective noirs", but it is difficult. It seems the only interest/requests they get are for the jidai geki and his later, more art-house stuff. When I finally break down and by a DVD player, I'll guess I'll have to buy them to see them.

If you have any more insights to the real Japanese names of any of his films, I'd love to hear them. It will give more to chew on as watch them.

Thanks,

Doug Daulton

PS: For anyone who is interested, here are a few links to info about Kurosawa and his work ...<ol>
<li><a href="http://kirjasto.sci.fi/kuros.htm">Kurosawa: A Biography</a></li>
<li><a href="http://us.imdb.com/Name?Kurosawa,+Akira#Director">Kurosawa: Filmography - Writer/Director</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www2.tky.3web.ne.jp/~adk/kurosawa/AKpage.html">Kurosawa: The Kurosawa Database (In English and Japanese)</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.tv-now.com/stars/kurosawa.html">Kurosawa: Upcoming cable presentations of Kurosawa's films</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.filmref.com/directors/dirpages/kurosawa.html">Kurosawa: Another filmography with analysis for film students & afficianados</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=00307476281767026275&q=Akira+Kurosawa&sa=Go">Kurosawa: Google.com Search Results for "Akira Kurosawa"</a></li>
</ol><div align="center">
<img src="http://www.theriverdojo.com/images/mif-hidfort.jpg"><br><b>Toshiro Mifune in "The Hidden Fortress"</b></div>

[Edited by Doug Daulton on 11-13-2000 at 02:47 PM]

Doug Daulton

13th November 2000, 19:08

Earl Hartman

13th November 2000, 19:12

Doug:

No need to apologize. Its just that for me, Kurosawa sits on the right hand of G-d, and Lucas inhabits some crcle of Hell in Dante's Inferno reserved for shameless poseur wannabes. I liked the first Star Wars film (harmless fun), and as I recall the 2nd had some good stuff, but Ewoks? Gungans? Puh-leeeeeeze! Lucas let all of the media hype go to his head. The only way I'm going to see another SW film is if Natalie Portman (hubba hubba!) gets nekkid, and I know that's not about to happen.

Anyhoo, you're right about Rashomon. A really good and thought-provoking film (although he kind of overdid it on the "Bolero" thing). Kagemusha was OK, and Ran was beautiful to look at, but left me cold. Didn't like "August Rhapsody" at all. I have an allergy to Richard Gere, and the whole thing was a little too mushy. I didn't hate it, but it just didn't move me much. The fox sequence in "Dreams" was really superb, but overall the film seemed a little self-indulgent.

One of Kurosawa's best films is called "Ikiru" (To Live) and tells the story of a colorless, insignificant city bureaucrat who discovers he has terminal cancer and only 6 months to live, and what he does with the rest of his life and how it affects the people he knows. Some people think its just bathos, but I thought it was a beautiful and moving film. The lead is played by Shimura Takashi, the head samurai from 7 Samurai, one of the best actors who ever lived, in my opinion.

If you want to see a couple of early Kurosawa films that showcase Mifune in his early years, get your hands on "Yoidore Tenshi" (Drunken Angel) and "Nora Inu" (Stray Dog). In Drunken Angel, Shimura plays a doctor in post-war Tokyo who likes his sake a little too much (hence the title) and Mifune, in his first role for Kurosawa (I think) plays a cheap hood whom the doctor has to treat. You can see why Mifune became a star. A really good performance. In Stray Dog, Mifune is a young police detective who has his gun stolen, and Shimura is his mentor on the force. The story involves them trying to track down the gun. Other good, if non-jidai geki roles for Mifune are "The Bad Sleep Well" (the real title is "Warui Yatsu Hodo Yoku Nemuru", which means "The Worse the Person, the Better He Sleeps"), in which Mifune plays a guy trying to avenge his father's death at the hands of heartless corporate bosses, and "High and Low"( real title: "Heaven and Hell") with Mifune as a businessman who has to decide whether or not to pay a ransom to rescue the son of his chauffeur, who was mistaken for Mifune's son and kidnapped. Nakadai plays the head of the detective team.

Any film by Itami Juzo (Tanpopo) is worth seeing if you're interested in offbeat commentary on the foibles of Japanese culture. Aside from "Tanpopo", "Funeral" is good, followed by "Taxing Woman" I and II and "Minbo no Onna" (I think its just called "Minbo" in English).

Anyway, just remember this:

Kurosawa Rox! Lucas Sux!

Party on, dude!

[Edited by Earl Hartman on 11-13-2000 at 02:16 PM]

Doug Daulton

13th November 2000, 20:03

Originally posted by Earl Hartman
I liked the first Star Wars film (harmless fun), and as I recall the 2nd had some good stuff, but Ewoks? Gungans? Puh-leeeeeeze! Lucas let all of the media hype go to his head. The only way I'm going to see another SW film is if Natalie Portman (hubba hubba!) gets nekkid, and I know that's not about to happen.

Earl,

I am right with you on the Ewoks, the Gungans and the lovely and talented Natalie Portman.

In general, I think Lucas has sold SW out to the under-13 set. However, rumor has it that Episodes II and especially III turn very dark and very adult (probably not Natalie-in-the-buff adult though). I'll believe that when I see it.

I think SW had the potential to be part of great American cinema (not just at the box-office or in pop-culture). However, this potential started to diminish with the Ewoks and took a nose dive with the Gungans. Alien cultures/psychology are ripe for mining as storytelling devices, but the aliens in SW EI and EVI clearly play to the kiddies.

Thanks for the info on the other films by Kurosawa and those by Itami Juzo. I will definitely check them out.

Son of Thunder

13th November 2000, 21:08

Alien cultures/psychology are ripe for mining as storytelling devices, but the aliens in SW EI and EVI clearly play to the kiddies.

For a better treatment of this, I'd recommend the SW novels. I particularly liked "Tales From the Cantina", "Tales of the Bounty Hunters", and "Tales From Jabba's Palace," which were essentially collections of short stories focusing on the insignifigant characters in the background (like the guy in the cantina who smoked the hookah, or the Rancor keeper in Jabba's palace). Some of the stories are completely uninteresting, but others are excellent treatments of alien mindsets and interesting personal histories. Other novels have delved into areas such as Wookie culture and psychology, Trandoshan (the lizard-man bounty hunter) family structure, and the possibility of a robotic Jedi.
I see the movies as instances in which you must look past the "cute alien" malarky. Doing so allows you to see that Lucas does actually tap some seriously good material. Look at Yoda, for example.

Margaret Lo

14th November 2000, 15:25

Earl - you're right about Lucas, but what is a shame is the potential that's been wasted. Look up THX-1130 his student film.

M

Doug Daulton

14th November 2000, 15:45

Margret,

You are dead on. THX-1138 was amazing.

Doug

[Edited by Doug Daulton on 11-14-2000 at 11:12 AM]

Earl Hartman

14th November 2000, 16:54

Margaret:

Yeh, I saw THX 1138 a long time ago and I remember liking it. I also liked "American Graffiti". It just goes to show you how success can ruin some people.

Also, to start another contoversy, I like Spielberg when he's doing harmless Saturday afternoon RKO serial drama type stuff like Raiders of the Lost Ark (loved it), but I don't like him when he's acting like a Sage With A Message (Schindler's List).

FastEd

21st November 2000, 20:59

Originally posted by Janty Chattaw

Silly fight scenes, silly fight scenes, silly fight scenes....SAY WHATTTT!!!! That was some of the best light saber action ever. Have you seen the first three Star Wars? Although I love all of the movies, Episode 1 light saber scenes were awesome. I think Darth Maul did a great job at choreographing the fight scenes, nuff said! Sorry I take Star Wars a little serious... I am not a dork, really I'm not:D [/B]

Well when it comes to choosing the best "light saber fighting scenes" in the SW saga, I'll gladly standup and say the original SW(IV) has never been equaled. All the silly dancing and prancing we've seen in the others especally (I) just bores me. But it appeals to the kids, and it is easy to follow on screen...!

Nick

21st November 2000, 22:21

You did not mess with the Ewoks... ok ok, so they were goofy, but they did add a bit more fantasy to a fantasy world, and they just made it more fun. I don't remember what the gungans are (I'm an ex-star wars nerd) but if that's what Jar Jar is, may their civilization be destroyed by a huge bolt of lightning in the sky...

May the Force be with you....

Steve Williams

24th November 2000, 15:18

This looks like the one to see, http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/entertainment/DailyNews/tiger000918.html http://mrshowbiz.go.com/news/Todays_Stories/518/cannes051800.html unfortunately it will not get to this side of the "pond" till next year....

hikari

24th November 2000, 17:04

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/movies/titles/crouching_tiger_hidden_dragon/reviews.php

It's going to be really great...

Ashura

24th November 2000, 19:24

I am a big Bruce lee fan yes Bruce lee:). I love Enter the Dragon but loved his eariler work. Also love highlander but i am sure no highlander fans here:( Adrian paul is a very good martial artist he has been studying for years well thats my 2cents

Sheridan

24th November 2000, 22:28

Highlander's not so bad as long as you can stand chinese swordsmanship with a 'Samyurai' sword. The best down and dirty fight scene (unarmed) I've ever seen, nothing fancy, no flying kicks or any of that crap is the twenty seconds of scraping in 'Goldeneye'. Bond and the bad guy fighting each other for the 9mm up in the tower. The best cinematography I've ever seen for straight out street fighting. Anybody suggest anything comparable or better? I'm tired of the high flying Lu Kang bicycle kick.

Steve Williams

24th November 2000, 23:42

For some really good weapons fighting then check out "Gladiator" (the new one), and "Last of the Mohecans" (the Daniel Day Lewis one).
Both have great weapon fights with non-traditional MA weapons (short sword and axe).

Nick

25th November 2000, 01:11

Highlander had decent fighting, but the plot was so god-awful I couldn't stand it.

Nick

Hank Irwin

25th November 2000, 01:42

Originally posted by Sheridan
Highlander's not so bad as long as you can stand chinese swordsmanship with a 'Samyurai' sword. The best down and dirty fight scene (unarmed) I've ever seen, nothing fancy, no flying kicks or any of that crap is the twenty seconds of scraping in 'Goldeneye'. Bond and the bad guy fighting each other for the 9mm up in the tower. The best cinematography I've ever seen for straight out street fighting. Anybody suggest anything comparable or better? I'm tired of the high flying Lu Kang bicycle kick. The Silent Flute was pretty good on one particular fight scene. The Bushido Blade with Scott Glen wasn't bad either. As far as Bond goes, there is only one Bond, James Bond(C-C-C-Connery, my man) but,...what about Flint, student of Lee....Gladiator... hmmm, was good. Any of us that takes a stand on origins of certain weapons needs to take a look at the history books. Look at the "systemized" combat in the different"gladiator" schools. Schools that actually were slave markets for this kind of thing. This goes back B.C. Uust!!

Hank Irwin

25th November 2000, 01:48

Originally posted by Steve Williams
For some really good weapons fighting then check out "Gladiator" (the new one), and "Last of the Mohecans" (the Daniel Day Lewis one).
Both have great weapon fights with non-traditional MA weapons (short sword and axe). Yeah, that Indian Wooden Cudgel was wicked! What do you think that was on the end, bone, maybe? I'd love to try and make one!

Gil Gillespie

25th November 2000, 03:17

"Last of the Mohegans" was one of the most visually stunning films of recent years. They went to the last old growth on the east coast to film (N Carolina, I believe) & that nighttime artillery barrage of Ft Henry was breathtaking. Wes Studi's screen presence as the ominous Indian villain Magua damn near stole the movie! That said I'm glad it was raised in this thread because as I watched the fight scenes I was actually disturbed by the dominance of Asian budo in all movie fight choreography. Blind spinning back kicks among American Indians? Hmmm. I have to really wonder.

One of the tragedies of Euro-American destruction of the Native American cultures is that since they were a pre-literate people all knowledge of their ways is lost unless preserved orally or observed by (conquering) outsiders. And if there were Amerindian martial arts we know virtually nothing of their techniques. They were prodigious wrestlers and their entire warfare honored what we know as CQC, even beyond the counting coup of the Plains tribes.

As budoka we can recognize the influence of Asian MA techniques among today's stunt fighters. Watching today's action films it's easy to assume every fighter is highly trained in budo. I'd like to think our fine professional fight choreographers could tailor their techniques a bit more appropriate historically.

Joseph Svinth

25th November 2000, 08:59

Gil --

Regarding Woodland Indian combatives, try

http://www.mindspring.com/~semartialarts/diss3a.html http://www.mindspring.com/~semartialarts/diss4a.html

Also see

Vennum, Thomas Jr. *American Indian Lacrosse: Little Brother of War* (Washington, DC: Smithsonian Institution Press, 1994); for related URLs,see http://www.iserv.net/~grlc/playlax/history and http://www.smithsonianmag.si.edu/smithsonian/issues97/dec97/object_dec97.html

The information exists, it is just that Hollywood sees no reason to waste money on things like historical accuracy.

[Edited by Joseph Svinth on 11-25-2000 at 04:03 AM]

Gil Gillespie

25th November 2000, 21:04

Joe, you never cease to amaze.
Arigato gozaimas'.

Chris Buechler

27th November 2000, 08:30

Has any one seen Six-String Samurai? It's a gas. Mind you its a wushu styleist with a katana, but the story is a riot.
Check it out at http://www.sixstringsamurai.com

Steve Williams

1st December 2000, 21:36

For all of you who revere the mighty Akira Kurosawa:

http://us.imdb.com/tiger_redirect?MOTD_HP&/Name?Kurosawa,+Akira

Hank Irwin

1st December 2000, 23:26

Whoa, man a plethara(is that right?) o'stuff, arigato Sensei!

Hank Irwin

1st December 2000, 23:29

Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
Gil --

Regarding Woodland Indian combatives, try

http://www.mindspring.com/~semartialarts/diss3a.html http://www.mindspring.com/~semartialarts/diss4a.html

Also see

Vennum, Thomas Jr. *American Indian Lacrosse: Little Brother of War* (Washington, DC: Smithsonian Institution Press, 1994); for related URLs,see http://www.iserv.net/~grlc/playlax/history and http://www.smithsonianmag.si.edu/smithsonian/issues97/dec97/object_dec97.html

The information exists, it is just that Hollywood sees no reason to waste money on things like historical accuracy.

[Edited by Joseph Svinth on 11-25-2000 at 04:03 AM] These were excellant sites, Aridato, Joesan!

Steve Williams

2nd December 2000, 21:31

Sometimes you guys (and girls) are a little too cerebral :look::idea:

This will drag the tone down a bit:

Just watched the new Jackie Chan "epic", "Shanghai Noon"

Story line = pretty c**p
Fight scenes = not very practical, but very well done

Entertainment value = WHAT GREAT ESCAPIST ENTERTAINMENT..... :D

Hank Irwin

2nd December 2000, 21:43

Originally posted by Steve Williams
Sometimes you guys (and girls) are a little too cerebral :look::idea:

This will drag the tone down a bit:

Just watched the new Jackie Chan "epic", "Shanghai Noon"

Story line = pretty c**p
Fight scenes = not very practical, but very well done

Entertainment value = WHAT GREAT ESCAPIST ENTERTAINMENT..... :D

I thought Lucy was nice, real nice.

Steve Williams

13th December 2000, 20:30

Well "Crouching Tiger" is out in the states, but we must still wait to see it :( (can't even get the DVD import yet :cry: )

http://a799.ms.akamai.net/7/799/388/942d13cd556ccc/www.msnbc.com/news/805342.jpg

What is it really like?? we have lots of reviews http://www.msnbc.com/news/494683.asp and http://www.msnbc.com/news/494619.asp (among others) but what is the opinion of the MA practitioner (You lot)

Darren Yeow

19th December 2000, 12:16

Has anyone seen Nico: Above the law, with Steven Seagal?

I personally think his movies aren't all that good but I like watching them anyway (sorta like smoking cigarettes, knowing they'll eventually kill ya).

In most (if not the rest) of Seagal sensei's movies he gives no clue as to where his fighting skills come from. Only in Nico:ATL you get a fleeting glimpse of his techniques in a dojo.

I'd have to say this is personally one of my favourite scenes in any movie, and is the beginning of the movie where Seagal sensei is in some aikido dojo, which is beautifully artistic, with sunlight streaming through the window giving everything a brownish tinge, looking like he's instructing a class - in perfect Japanese. He then goes onto perform various nage and engages in randori and tateki geiko. You can feel his presence radiating off the screen - ooh yeah! What did you guys think of this movie?

Regards DY

Arashi

19th December 2000, 13:11

Hi all.

"Blood on the sun" has the best Judo fight i have ever seen in a movie. I can't say if it is authentic or not, but the way the older indian character fights with what appears to be a moose's horn in "The last of the Mohicans" is really amazing. I think "Above the Law" is ok for Aikido. The duel for the city of Calaorra in "EL CID" is very good and so is the the final duel in "Scaramouche" and "The prisioner of Zenda". Good staged fencing can be also seen in a "lost" movie called "By the Sword" starring Eric Roberts and F. Murray Abrahan, it is a joy to see the final duel. Has nayone seen it?

Toni Rodrigues

Darren Yeow

19th December 2000, 13:49

For the one of the best Jet Li movies go and pick up "Fist of Legend" - a redone version of Bruce Lee's Fist of Fury. Some bone breaking action, ouch!

DY

Hank Irwin

19th December 2000, 17:22

Originally posted by Arashi
Hi all.

"Blood on the sun" has the best Judo fight i have ever seen in a movie. I can't say if it is authentic or not, but the way the older indian character fights with what appears to be a moose's horn in "The last of the Mohicans" is really amazing. I think "Above the Law" is ok for Aikido. The duel for the city of Calaorra in "EL CID" is very good and so is the the final duel in "Scaramouche" and "The prisioner of Zenda". Good staged fencing can be also seen in a "lost" movie called "By the Sword" starring Eric Roberts and F. Murray Abrahan, it is a joy to see the final duel. Has nayone seen it?

Toni Rodrigues It was very good, need to take a ride to Blockbuster, wouldn't mind watching it again.

jimmy o'curry

6th January 2001, 03:09

i've got to second the comments re: "blood on the sun": tachiwaza, katamewaza, atemiwaza, cagney did it all; he also showed some good old-school judo in a scene in "13 rue madeline"(sp?)

i'd also have to mention the final fight in lethal weapon 1;
after years of watching spinning kicks & jumping kicks, it was great to see somebody go for juji-gatame, and finish a fight with sankaku-jime.

jimmy o'curry

jimmy o'curry

6th January 2001, 03:30

hmmm . . . this is a pretty detail-oriented crowd, so perhaps i should say "the cagney CHARACTER did it all";

btw, another of my cagney favorites is his role in "ragtime" as the tough old police chief; i think that was his last role.

jimmy o'curry

Jutte

13th January 2001, 04:53

Interesting enough, I think the best example of Jujitsu (army style) might actually be at the end of the Ninth Configuration. Stacy Keech Mows through a bunch of Bikers without postering or hesitating, moving from one foe to the other with poise and efficiency.
The story is actually kind of cool, a mix between a psychological thriller and mystery. Definate good movie, don't expect a lot of action...none until the end.
-Phil Smith

Kimpatsu

13th October 2001, 08:09

You would not believe the people that do not know what "giri", obligation, duty, commitment, and loyalty mean !
Sensei Irwin: Yes, I would believe it! (Although it's a little sad...)

Yamantaka

13th October 2001, 15:57

Originally posted by Arashi
Hi all.
Good staged fencing can be also seen in a "lost" movie called "By the Sword" starring Eric Roberts and F. Murray Abrahan, it is a joy to see the final duel. Has nayone seen it?
Toni Rodrigues

YAMANTAKA : Toni, I never thought anyone saw that movie! In my opinion, the three best martial arts movies (not fantasies like "Tiger and Dragon") were :
"BY THE SWORD", "GHOST DOG" and "RONIN", with Robert de Niro (all three of them more concerned about Heiho than fights).
By the way, did you get Kishikawa's TV presentation?
Best

Kimpatsu

13th October 2001, 17:16

Thank you, sensei, for your kind reply.
I have never seen Ghost Dog; If it's available in Japan, it's not on the shelves of my local video store. I'm glad you approve of my thinking, though; If you enjoyed Ronin, then check out Six String Samurai--It's surrealistic, but good fun, and the Iaido is superb.
Yours in Budo,
PS: I think that "By the Sword" is brilliant; great MA scenes, and if you substitute MA for fencing, and sensei for Maestro...

MarkF

14th October 2001, 11:29

Originally posted by jimmy o'curry
hmmm . . . this is a pretty detail-oriented crowd, so perhaps i should say "the cagney CHARACTER did it all";

btw, another of my cagney favorites is his role in "ragtime" as the tough old police chief; i think that was his last role.

jimmy o'curry

Hi, Jeff,
It was Cagney's last "cinematic" role, as he made a TV movie, with him in a wheelchair and a young girl as the female "lead." I wish I could remember more about it, but I believe he was a crotchety old man, turned around by a child, but even this, I am not sure.

I am sure he made it, though. He passed away soon after it aired.

Mark

kendokata

19th October 2001, 19:16

Well, I'm still new and although I'm sure this has been done to death amd then killed 5 times more, but what the hell. First, some of the posts in this thread are really interesting and I'll be checking out a few of the flicks listed.

Since I guess I'm here t throw in few that may have not been listed (probably have , I just didn't see every one) :
Rob Roy - Good Fencing
The Hunted - What can I say, the train scene and crazy chick
Karate Kid 1-3 - The are classics and if you get the underlying
relationships they explore.
The Program - nothing to do with ma, but some damn good
football.

Michael Castellani

glad2bhere

24th October 2001, 15:34

HHHmmmmm. Seems to be a mis-connect here. Maybe I'm missing something.

I picked-up GHOST DOG, RONIN and ONCE UPON A TIME IN CHINA. Can't seem to see what others are seeing. By comparison, THE YAKUZA, BY THE SWORD and THE MATRIX are not to be missed. Has anyone mentioned LETHAL WEAPON 4? Comments?
I also tried to watch ROMEO MUST DIE, BEST OF THE BEST and MORTAL COMBAT and actually found myself getting annoyed. Am I showing my age or do I just expect too much from MA cinema?

BTW: Has anyone made a connection with the Korean film industry? I understand that they have turned out quite a few good films based on Korean history and martial tradition but I have not had much luck locating any titles or reviews.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Yamantaka

25th October 2001, 10:46

[QUOTE]Originally posted by glad2bhere
[B] GHOST DOG, RONIN ... Can't seem to see what others are seeing. By comparison, THE YAKUZA, BY THE SWORD and THE MATRIX are not to be missed. Has anyone mentioned LETHAL WEAPON 4? Comments? [END QUOTE]

UBALDO : IMHO...GHOST DOG is a masterful representation of the Samurai mentality, disguised as a thriller. RONIN is the best presentation of HYOHO that I ever saw. The YAKUZA and BY THE SWORD are tops. MATRIZ and LETHAL WEAPON 4 are just thrillers. Funny and fast paced but, in the end, just thrillers.

[quote] Originally posted by glad2bhere[] BEST OF THE BEST and MORTAL COMBAT ????? [END QUOTE]

UBALDO : You must be kidding!!! :eek:
Best :wave:

PeteBoyes

25th October 2001, 11:52

Hi all,

I noticed mention of Christopher Lambert in the Highlander series of movies, has anybody seen "The Hunted".

There's a great scene where the sword master (sorry, can't remember his name!) has to leave his sword with the police as eveidence. He breaks the blade despite it being a 'classic' sword and family heirloom.

Kimpatsu

25th October 2001, 14:42

Dear Peter,
I agree that's the only good scene in an otherwise crap movie.
Hollywood at its worst; who can ask for less?

Don Cunningham

25th October 2001, 15:38

I recently caught snippets of what looked like a beautifully filmed period piece on cable ... but my TV viewing partners were not interested in watching it and I forgot to get the name.

The portion I saw had one lone samurai (maybe played by Mifune) helping some villagers defend a high mountain pass from brigands or other such rogues. Here are the things that struck me about it ...

1. It was filmed in the winter and used the contrast of the snow to great effect

2. Part of the defense of the mountain pass seemed to involve the use of gunpowder bombs that looked quite a bit like the old "cannonball with a wick".

If anyone has seen this film and can give me any info on it (name, director, year) I hope to track it down and watch it all the way through.
I believe this may have been Incident at Blood Pass. Here is a brief description of the movie from Animeigo's web site:

"In the early seventies, Mifune Toshiro and Katsu Shintaro made a deal with each other; they would each appear in a film made by the other. The two films that resulted were Zatoichi meets Yojimbo and Incident at Blood Pass (Machibuse). Two of Japan's greatest stars collide when Mifune Toshiro ("Yojimbo", "Samurai Banners") butts heads with Katsu Shintaro ("The Razor", "Zatoichi"). In his final portrayal of the Yojimbo character, Mifune is hired to perform a mission so mysterious, he isn't even told what it is! All he knows is that he is supposed to go to a remote mountain pass and wait for something to happen. When he arrives at a lonely tea-house on top of the pass, he becomes ensnared in a twisted plot involving a bandit gang, a Shogunate officer, a discredited doctor (Katsu) and a convoy of Shogunate gold. He soon discovers he's apparently been hired to be a bodyguard for the bandits, but all is not quite as it seems!"

The scene you describe sounds like the climax where Mifune attempts to prevent the bandits from hijacking the Shogun's gold convoy with their hidden cannon. The doshin's assistants show up and help arrest all the bandits. There is a lot of confusion and unless you have followed the plot to this point, it might appear they are "defending a mountain pass."

Tony: Sorry, but I didn't follow your previous post about "giri, obligation, duty, commitment, and loyalty..." Was this posted to the wrong thread or something?

Kimpatsu

25th October 2001, 16:13

No, Oh Mighty Soke Don Usagi,
I was referring to a posting made by Irwin Sensei on page 5 of this thread. Check it out.
HTH,

Don Cunningham

25th October 2001, 16:35

Now I understand. The reference was to the 1960s film, The Yakuza starring Robert Mitchum. I liked this movie as well. It really did show how the yakuza has incorporated many of their interpretations about samurai culture into their organizations and weird sort of criminal ethics. The movie was fairly accurate for the time period, although it did romanticize the yakuza lifestyle.

It seems that much of this has also gone to the wayside as yakuza have modernized their own internal systems. I've found a few older members and hardcore rightwingers still cling to this romantic notion they are maintaining the Japanese national spirit, but the more modern ones are just like thugs everywhere. The yakuza code of the samurai has fallen victim to efficiency as they find it more difficult to make crime pay under Japanese legal crackdowns. The old image still plays well in gangster films from Japan, though.