Eight year old boy earns black belt in karate

[John Lindsey]

http://www.koaa.com/news/view.asp?ID=1795




A Pueblo West boy is battling two illnesses, but that hasn't stopped him from achieving greatness. Eight year old Michael Trevithick has just earned his black belt in karate.
Michael has juvenile diabetes, and another disease that makes him unable to digest wheat.
Michael gets insulin shots three to four times a day, and he's on a difficult diet. His goal is to become an eighth degree black belt and have a karate school of his own.
In the mean time, his parents say he's befriending other kids at Sierra Vista Elementary who have diabetes, and teaching them how to live an active life despite their disease.

[S Ford-Powell]

It is good to see the MA giving a young boy with problems, something positive to do.

[sammycerv]

Ok, the kid has a couple of illnesses. They are controllable and not life threatening. 8 years old??? I think this should be on Baffling Budo.

[S Ford-Powell]

I ignored the "8 years old" and "black belt" for exactly that reason, Sammy

Found the positives

[Blackwood]

Well, I don't buy the 8 yr old black belt stuff, but I do like this Kids Kicking Cancer (http://www.kidskickingcancer.net)

[Goju Man]

This I think is part of the issue with rank in Karate. Although I feel for the kid, (I have two of my own), I'm sure he is not anywhere near a "black belt" level. Rank is given out for just about any reason you can dream of from sickness to honorary. How about we give it on the actual skill.

[Blackwood]

And it just churns my stomach to ask some 'black belt' kid what style he has his belt in. Dollars to Donuts you get a blank look. Once in a blue moon they actually know!

Gotta be 14 to get BB in my organization. And then two years to nidan and then three more to sandan.

[Excel Glenn]

I have met one young man, in my entire career, who was worthy of wearing some form of junior dan rank, called poom in TKD. This kid was an old soul and was quiet and attentive. He could spit back anything you asked him on history and technique in a manner that was quite impressive, given his age. He also fully understood that there was a vast difference between what he knew and what his seniors knew.

Of course it was TKD, soooo... but still he was just about the most perfect child you could expect to meet, and it never went to his head or got out of control. I didn't want him to get any type of blackbelt but it wasn't my call. He displayed amazing maturity and restraint thanks to his parents and their attention to his manners and personality development. If instructors could guarantee this type of result, then I would not have a problem with a junior dan ranking. Of course, we know the actual truth 9 out of 10 times.

He could have told you TKD chang moo kwan and chung do kwan, Kukiwon is the governing body, USTU is the sanctioning competitive body in the US, etc. Three kingdoms, silla, paekche, and koryo, the form names their meanings, demonstrate them quite respectably without the fancy crap and even show you self-defense from each one. That is more than I can get from most adults these days. He was 9 years old, his IQ was also probably pretty high and he had very real parents.

[Blackwood]

Those are the ones you love! I really like getting the 10 and 11 year olds in class. If they are serious about things, they are right on track for shodan at 14. It is always a challenge to find something to keep them engaged and busy if they start too much younger. That is one reason you start seeing so many kobudo classes for kids these days, sort of a compromise to keep from losing them.

[Excel Glenn]

Yes, Chris was a joy to work with. He went on to take honors in high school and moved on to football, mostly due to the fact that I went to college and our head teacher was only interested in exploiting him in the press, sound familiar.

Kids with weapons!!!!

Don't get me started. The "bad" local TKD group here is always putting weapons in the hands of children, and it is just horrible to watch, because it is obvious that it is sort of "swing this around for fun time." They are also in a room ringed with fully mirrored walls.

Of course this is the group that I predicted would all of a sudden start being "iaido" masters after the Last Samurai. I have not been disappointed. The real iaido teacher in my town uses the same facility. So once he got some students from the publicity of the movie, out come the cheap stainless steel swords and some crazy sword form that keeps changing and has like 150 "ahem, movements" in it. I give them six weeks before they move on to something else due to the "I got that down" and boredom factor.

RETCH....

[RobertW]

I would not normally say this but here goes...

You lot should all hang your heads in shame!
Give you no face and a message board and you'll all say what is truly in your hearts. Or do none of you have kids of your own?
Good on the kid. He is actually using this to do good for other kids who have juvenile diabetes as well!
Get off your friggin high horses!
Who do you all think you are?
You know you might not agree with his rank, but hey guess what - he might have started at three.
I mean your hacking down a kid! A sick kid. I say good for the little boy.
Alot of people who I respect greatly on this forum just surprised the crap out of me.
Glenn, Goju, you always sounded like such great guys!
I mean who cares! Are we all so worried about who gets what that we are going to get on this boy?
Were all experts? I mean there are some people on here who are but come on give the political high and mighty the heave-ho and put some mental and spiritual support behind this Boy. Sure he's young, but he seems to have great spirit.
Yeeesh.
Just my two cents, and it is not my intention to offend so if I offended you - sorry.

COME ON!

[larsen_huw]

Rob,

Calm down and re-read their posts.

No-one's attacking the child.

Several people have raised points which could be seen as attacking THE STYLE, but not the kid.

There is no way a child of that age is ready for a dan grade. That's not the kids fault, and no-one's saying it is. It's purely the fault of the school who gave out the black belt.

[S Ford-Powell]

Ermm.. I actually, made the first reply in this thread and stated what I thought was a positive opinion on the Martial Art's contibution to this poor kid's life - I made no reference to his grade (I have opinions). I have two boys myself and thought, "good for you kid!!" . His grade is irrelevant (if absurd)

[Rogier]

Originally posted by RobertW
I would not normally say this but here goes...

You lot should all hang your heads in shame!
Give you no face and a message board and you'll all say what is truly in your hearts.

please find a picture of my face next to my post...


Or do none of you have kids of your own?

nope actually don't have any kids at all


Good on the kid. He is actually using this to do good for other kids who have juvenile diabetes as well!

yes very nice for him and very nice that he's making contact with other children. That still doesn't mean he should get a black belt.


Get off your friggin high horses!

not that high actually, I'm currently seeing a psychologist to work on my self-esteem issues


Who do you all think you are?

can only speak for myself, but:
I am Rogier Johannes Aloysius Wilhelmus van der Peijl, 25 years old. I have a girlfriend, soon to be my wife. Next to my 40 hour work week, I do two parttime studies and somehow manage to combine that with a lot of hours of training.


You know you might not agree with his rank, but hey guess what - he might have started at three.

Yes and even if he started at three, at his current age the chances are very slim that he fully understands what he is doing. The martial arts are not a kiddy thing..


I mean your hacking down a kid! A sick kid. I say good for the little boy.

good god, if you can never say anything about a sick person... No one is hacking the kid down. We're talking about the fact of awarding Dan rankings to children


Were all experts? I mean there are some people on here who are but come on give the political high and mighty the heave-ho and put some mental and spiritual support behind this Boy.

nope not all experts, but still we're all entitled to an opinion


Sure he's young, but he seems to have great spirit.
Yeeesh.

yep, you know what let's award all children with great spirit with a dan ranking...


COME ON!

yep, you've said it.... COME ON!

[Goju Man]

Robert, I'm not knocking the kid, I have two of my own. I feel for him. My point is this: If you start handing out rank for just about everything, what distinguishes the real practitioner? Karate, wether you're in it for character building or whatever is about combat. If not why train? Why mimick fighting movements and fighting styles? Why is there self defense classes taught? Why not have self centering classes instead? Where does it end? Soon, infants will start wearing the dan grade. I ask you this. When did karate stop being karate and turn into something else? Do you think Myagi would have given that rank? Or Motobu or the others? If you wear the belt, shouldn't you be at that level? Maybe we should give driver licenses to those who can't ACTUALLY operate a vehicle. Let's give a commercial license to all those who ever wanted to be a big rig truck driver, never mind wether they can operate the eighteen wheeler or not. How would you like to be on that road? High horse, no. High standards, yes.

[tamashi]

the child looks like an inpiration and i am sure he is.

Yudansha ranks are adult ranks.

Most of the E-budo members are not anonymous.
look at profiles and some of us have quite a
bit of information there. those of us who list
links - you can find everything but my Home address.

maybe in 8 years the child will grow into a Dan rank.
or 10 years.

[Mike Williams]

I agree with Robert - good on the little fella. (The kid, not Robert!
:D :p )

Like it or not, people study (or send their kids to) MA for a variety of different reasons. Two of those reasons are bragging rights ("Little Joey got his black belt today!") and day-care.

Serious MAists will find serious MA to study - what happens in the mcdojo down the street doesn't really affect them.

By all means mock the mcdojos and their owners (it's fun!), but cut this kid some slack.

Cheers,

Mike

[Shikiyanaka]

Everyone earns a graduation simply by fullfilling the demands of the respective examination regulations – to one’s personal best. That’s all.

If a teacher ( - certified for his style - ) likes to do so, ranks are sometimes granted much more easy. For example for winning tournaments, making up a branch dojo of the style, bringing new students to the organization, help the master spread his style to a new continent, so that he can make a living from that... all great achievements (really?). In fact, not much bigger than what the boy does. :p

Bad Budô? Turning a blind eye in this case rather belongs to the "benevolence and compassion" part of Budô.

[RobertW]

Hey guys - like I said I did NOT want to offend anyone and I apologize to Simon. I did read their posts. In fact I ALWAYS read ALL of peoples posts, something I am sure that not everyone does.
I think most everyone here knows that I am a reasonable guy. But don't dare rock the e-budo boat. I mean you wouldn't want to put too much thought into things...
The issue of Dan for kids is different than a sick boy getting a degree. Lets give our kudo to the kid and start another thread.
Our association would not give rank at that age either, but we are taling about a KID.
Goju my standards are very high. I talking about giving an eight year old a break, man. Not giving out Black belts for all.
Her's a question,
Should President Reagan NOT have been given his HONOURARY Black Belt by Shigweu Oyama?

[tamashi]

Originally posted by RobertW
Hey guys - like I said I did NOT want to offend anyone and I apologize to Simon. I did read their posts. In fact I ALWAYS read ALL of peoples posts, something I am sure that not everyone does.
I think most everyone here knows that I am a reasonable guy. But don't dare rock the e-budo boat. I mean you wouldn't want to put too much thought into things...
The issue of Dan for kids is different than a sick boy getting a degree. Lets give our kudo to the kid and start another thread.
Our association would not give rank at that age either, but we are taling about a KID.
Goju my standards are very high. I talking about giving an eight year old a break, man. Not giving out Black belts for all.
Her's a question,
Should President Reagan NOT have been given his HONOURARY Black Belt by Shigweu Oyama?

Was the child's belt Honorary?
Reagan's from Shigeru Oyama was Honorary.

[Richard Horrowi]

Or Former Mayor Koch from New York a Blackbelt from Tadashi Nakamura, or all the Senate Members from Jhoon Rhee? I saw a video of Joko Ninomiyas people and there was a pre teen, or so he appears, as a Yudansha. Damn talented but he wasn't 13 I'm certain.

Give the kid a break! Ninomiya and Nakamura incidently also have Yudansha with disabilities, ie wheelchair and missing limbs granted they are adults. How can they possibly do some of the required Sabaki? To the Best of their ability! That's how they advance and are tested on their gains and improvements, mentally physically and in these cases specifically Spiritually. The glass is half full not half empty, I have no legs so I can't do anything, I have no legs but I wanna learn Karate. Nintai Perseverance!

This child is also a roll model for others to learn from in that age bracket and for some fat !!! adults to follow as well. How many 8yr old fat asses do you see out their that are lazy as hell? Who knows the kid may be a reincarnated Chinese General or Samurai who has exceptional ability.



I feel for the kid, give him a break and pick on some other schmuck who promotes kids that don't have disabilities that suck.

If I offended anyone, well too bad.

RH

[tamashi]

Originally posted by John Lindsey
http://www.koaa.com/news/view.asp?ID=1795

this said the child earned his black belt.
it does not say he got an honoraray one.

i guess i better read the article.

[S Ford-Powell]

Robert, I gratefully accept your apology, which wasn't really necessary, since I agree with the thrust of your argument anyway! He's a good lad isn't he?. I once awarded a Dan grade to a man who had previously been a yellow belt. He had trained for 8 pain filled years! and was 85 when he stopped. He should never have started in my opinion, but he did! One snowbound night he was the only student who turned up and he was driving a three wheeler invalid car!

He was awarded an honoury Dan grade and rightly so, but only when he stopped appearing on the mat since he was nowhere near the standard required.

best wishes to you

[DJ Tucson]

Some of you are sick! If you are so hung up on rank you're most likely not any good anyway at MA or life! Under a skill test the mental focus, wits, and intent is not there at all, And Yes I do not have any respect for anyone who clams a shodan rank before 17 or 18 and these are extreme, But to say one word about someone giving a kid something to be prode is just being something we are not aloud to say.

I am sure the guy who gave it to him felt it was the best thing for the child. That means a lot more then you cry babies” well everyone should have to work as hard as I did"

Again, if your are that concerned about rank YOU ARE NOT WORTH A DIME! Some of you are sick! If you are so hung up on rank you're most likely not any good anyway at MA or life! Under a skill test the mental focus, wits, and intent is not there at all, And Yes I do not have any respect for anyone who clams a shodan rank before 17 or 18 and these are extreme, But to say one word about someone giving a kid something to be proud is just being something we are not aloud to say.

I am sure the guy who gave it to him felt it was the best thing for the child. That means a lot more then you cry babies” well everyone should have to work as hard as I did"

Again, if your are that concerned about rank YOU ARE NOT WORTH A DIME!

[dan keup]

How many times have I told you do not post without your medication!

I'm sure everyone knows that not all ranks are equal, but kudos for the kid.


oh yeah, AGAIN, no posting without your medication! You windbag!


And no cry babying tomorrow when you read this. See you at class.

[tamashi]

Originally posted by DJ Tucson
Some of you are sick! If you are so hung up on rank you're most likely not any good anyway at MA or life! Under a skill test the mental focus, wits, and intent is not there at all, And Yes I do not have any respect for anyone who clams a shodan rank before 17 or 18 and these are extreme, But to say one word about someone giving a kid something to be prode is just being something we are not aloud to say.

I am sure the guy who gave it to him felt it was the best thing for the child. That means a lot more then you cry babies” well everyone should have to work as hard as I did"

Again, if your are that concerned about rank YOU ARE NOT WORTH A DIME! Some of you are sick! If you are so hung up on rank you're most likely not any good anyway at MA or life! Under a skill test the mental focus, wits, and intent is not there at all, And Yes I do not have any respect for anyone who clams a shodan rank before 17 or 18 and these are extreme, But to say one word about someone giving a kid something to be proud is just being something we are not aloud to say.

I am sure the guy who gave it to him felt it was the best thing for the child. That means a lot more then you cry babies” well everyone should have to work as hard as I did"

Again, if your are that concerned about rank YOU ARE NOT WORTH A DIME!

thanks for he not so articulate argument.

[larsen_huw]

Originally posted by DJ Tucson
Some of you are sick! ...

Actually, it's the kid who's sick ... or is that just a little to blunt for this time in the morning?

I don't think anyone here is knocking the kid.

Should he be given a pilot's licence if he were interested in planes rather than MA? Should he be given allowed to compete in the Daytona 500 if he were interested in cars rather than MA?

The answer to both of those is "NO!" ... He should be encouraged to take an interest, and to participate as fully as he can. And if, in years to come here were good enough, then he should be awarded a black belt/pilot's licence/drive at the Daytona ... not before.

[RobertW]

Gimme a break.

[MarkF]

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19873&highlight=Carson+Proo


Mark

[Blackwood]

Mark,

Thanks for the link to that old thread! Both inspirational and educational.

[RobertW]

EXXAAAAAACTLYYYYYYY

[DJ Tucson]

Sorry got a little cared away!

[chizikunbo]

Originally posted by sammycerv
Ok, the kid has a couple of illnesses. They are controllable and not life threatening. 8 years old??? I think this should be on Baffling Budo.
I agree, the whole black belt thing I am questioning, but good to see he is an active regular kid, but 8 years old???

[MarkF]

One could say things are evolving as they should be. I recall a 7-year old with a black belt who then put on a breaking demo. Of course, those holding the boards were holding them too high for him, and he had to resize his "helpers," so if he needs help doing what most twenty year old ikyu can do without help, it does seem self-defeating in giving a grade at a level at which he cannot possibly compete (being handicapped compared to the full-grown black belts). It isn't the height, I've been the smallest all my life, but one acquires a sense of what one can do and what one shouldn't even try to do. Now that is one thing which a black belt should be able to do, realize his limitations.

It didnt' seem he needed it to come back class after class, at least from reading the article.

Interestingly, with judo in the US growing fast in the 1950s, the age limit to enter a class was twenty-one. It did go down rather quickly to twenty, then to 18 years old where it remained for some time.

Who would have thought that today's Kodokan Judo Institute would be awarding shodan to thirteen year old participants, or that a bb was possible in, not only a year, but even in three months. In the US, it was basically following the lead of the Kodokan and other judo dojo in Japan, so perhaps it is time to realize there will always be exceptions. The US is still far more conservative in grading, but why? There is a limit and I don't think at 8 years, the student understands what comes with it, good technique or not.

Perhaps it proves this point: "Anyone can pass a test."


Mark "posting in the wrong forum again" Feigenbaum

[Norman Cooper]

This is just my second post. Please be gentle.

As a matter of the boy's "skill", I know a couple of middle age black belts that can't fight their way out of a paper bag. They have good technique in a controlled situation, look impressive during
demonstrations and can tell you anything about the style of their art. But they break down when the real heat is on.

True Story:
Recently, I was at a local gas station with one above mentioned black belt. We were approached by a man with his right hand in his pocket. He was asking for money to buy a bus ticket, but did not remove his right hand from his pocket. Cautiously, I conveyed to the man that I did not have any cash on hand and that I was sorry I could not help him. I remained guarded as we stared at each other for what seemed like eternity. He seemed like he was sizing me up (in my opinion), I felt confident that if he tried something that I could handle him and if he had any buddies nearby, then my friend (bb not to mention my sensei) would help out. I was so focused on the panhandler that I didn't notice that my "friend" had slipped into the gas station. Fortunately, the man turned around and departed without a problem. I watched him cautiously as he left the parking lot and crossed the street. I turned to comment to my "friend" and was shocked to see that he was watching from behind a display aisle inside the gas station.

I was relieved that my martial arts training gave me the ability to remain calm, clear headed and confident. The actions of my friend and sensei had a sobering effect. That is not the best time that find out who has your back. Maybe the threat was imagined and maybe not. Fortunately I will never know.

I will try to be more brief in the future.

Norman Cooper

[RobertW]

It is all up to the instructor. I think this is the truth of manners. we rerspect our own instructor student relationship, then we ought to respect that of others.
It stands to reason that we have all seen our fair share of weak ranks. owever it is not up to us to judge. Just to continue, through our own efforts, to give the best Karate and deserved rank tests we can.
Truly the next generation is a responsibility. If we don't want to see crappy forms being danced around to be the latest techno, it is up to us.

[Timothy.G.B.]

Does rank mean anything today, when you are comparing across schools? In my opinion it doesn't mean very much unless you know what exactly what is being taught in each school.

We are all aware that rank does not make someone good at karate. I think that rank tells you more about a sensei than it does about the student who receives it.

Just a thought!

Tim Black

[Timothy.G.B.]

And BTW sick kids aren't like the rest of us...they are sick and so if they get more special treatment than anyone else then that is great.

What sick kid doesn't deserve special treatment from all of us adults?

Tim Black

[Timothy.G.B.]

What kid doesn't deserve special treatment from adults? After all we're supposed to be the ones who know more about life and are supposed to set the example for how they will treat others as adults.

Last thought on this issue, I promise :)

Tim Black

[RobertW]

Careful T, they might jump on ya...

[Timothy.G.B.]

:)

Tim Black

[Iron Chef]

A black belt at most will cover about two inches of your !!!.

[Blackwood]

You just have to wonder.

6 Year Old Black Belt (http://www.dailynews.com/Stories/0,1413,200~20954~2968772,00.html)

And she tested while still 5. And there is a 12 year-old that tested at the same time after studying for 2 years.

[Bob van Tuyn]

I’m sorry but I really can’t agree with HANDING someone a rank (kid, man, woman, stillborn). Mind the emphasis on HANDING, if he really is up to the level no problem but like many already pointed out MA is also about mental development and a kid is not mentally ready for a DAN degree (period). I really don’t see any points of argument in the “he’s sick give him some slag” That’s something totally beside the issue of granting him a blackbelt. He can still be given support love etc etc etc, without giving him a higher rank.. The kid should know this also from studying karate. He should know what ranks stands for. It’s not something you give out of hate, love, sorrow, pity etc.

A certificate is something that represents your skill level. It doesn’t matter if it’s a driver license, a Master of science title, or a belt rank in a MA. And like someone already wrote we never give a poor little sick kid a drivers license, or a master of science title to make him feel better!!.

Positive or negative discrimination is not something that should be grounds for reaching a higher rank. He’s a LITTLE sick (if we play that card there are THOUSANDS of kids who deserve that rank more than him) for example 6 years old boys who now have to feed their sisters because their parants died of aids and he is the oldest etc.

It cames down to the following
Should the kid be reinforced to participate in sports, MA etc of course nobody is debating this. Does he deserves a little slack in life yes nobody is debating this. Should he be handed a higher rank in MA, driving, education, surgery etc. NO!!!! That’s totally besides this!

P.S. I my have wrote this in a somewhat “confronting way” bud that’s just a reply on things like…. You’re all sick give the kid a break stuff.

[Troll Basher]

This I think is part of the issue with rank in Karate. Although I feel for the kid, (I have two of my own),
1) I'm sure he is not anywhere near a "black belt" level. Rank is given out for just about any reason you can dream of from sickness to honorary.
2) How about we give it on the actual skill.


1) I agree. An 8 year old doesn’t have the mental or physical maturity to be a shodan, heavy on the lack of mental maturity part.
2) Nope, that would require someone to have the physical and mental fortitude and patience to actually train. ;) Just not gonna happen in today’s society where everything is based on the “MacDonald’s Minute”…..(i.e. get your food, or whatever you want, in less than a minute or get pissed off)
Don’t get me wrong I feel for the kid.

[powerof0ne]

I've seen a few 12-15 y/o "jr. black belts" that I thought deserved the honor but the dojo I spent most of my time at never had a "jr. black belt"..when I think back we had a couple of 12-13 y/o brown belt students and they were at least 16 by the time they made shodan. I'd like to say that 16 is a good age but I've seen a few younger students that could make shodan before 16..but not many. 8 and younger is just beyond ridiculous to me.

[SevenStarPM]

Just thought I'd throw in my opinion.
Generally speaking I agree with the majority of comments regarding children receiving black belts at early ages. I think there is a certain amount of maturity required to be considered that standard etc etc.
However, I just wanted to play devils advocate and put forward a different point of view. A vitally important part of a martial art(ist) is the development of "spirit". I would just like you guys to consider the meaning of this. Personally, i believe that anyone, especially a child, that goes through severe medical conditions, whatever they may be, and yet continues to train through it, and battles with the physical/mental disabilities brought on by those conditions, are they not to be considered with a great "spirit" than any healthy adult could ever develop in normal conditions? I don't care how hard your partner hits you in training, it isn't even in the same league as suffering cancer. Now I realise this particular child doesn't have a terminal disease like cancer, but any severe, long term illness obviously has a major physical and mental impact on that individual.
As far as I'm concerned, maybe. just maybe, if the syllabus is known, and he can perform the techniques etc with an amount of skill, could we not consider him a greater "black belt" than the average adult black belt??
just another opinion...

[MarkF]

Here is an old story, but it does put ten years to black belt in perspective to two years at any age.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19873


Mark