Kendo Question

[John J. Montes]

Hello fellas. I have an interesting question to ask of you guys. First off, I practice Aikido so my knowledge of Kendo is limited. However, one day while practicing Aiki-Ken with a teacher who has a background in Kendo (unknown how deep), he made a statement that piqued my ears: we were practicing a kumitachi set involving "tsuki" when he stated that "tsuki" was a dangerous technique, that in Kendo, tsuki is not taught until ikkyu.

Is this true? What makes this attack that much more dangerous than other attacks?

Thanks for your responses.



P.S. I am considering studying Kendo in addition to my studies in Aikido now. I am in New York City so any recommendations as to where to go and who to train with would be most obliged.

Thanks again.

[G. Zepeda]

Tsuki, is a dangerous technique in Kendo. We were not supposed to use it until after we had achieved Ikkyo. However, with my attack style, I am a complete sucker for it, and it's used on me in keiko all the time by the Yudansha.

[Charlie Kondek]

It's dangerous because:

1) it's easy to do wrong. I'm nidan and I only started trying it recently, and then only against more advanced partners.

2) you could miss the tsuki-flap on the armor and poke yer buddy in the throat, and that would be damaging and dangerous.

NYC is a great town for kendo. AFAIK, all the dojos there are top notch. Visit www.kendo-usa.org and find one near you using the "find a dojo" function.

[StanLee]

I get tsuki all the time and I also have the tendency to skewer myself on my opponent's shinai...:D

[leoboiko]

I believe it is dangerous because it's difficult to do it correctly and if you miss, it's easy to hurt your partner. We're advised to perform it slowly and carefully until you have confidence. The use of tsuki during shiai is not encouraged before ikkyu, maybe even shodan.

[DCPan]

From my perspective, there’s also good “training” reasons for not doing tsuki too early.

When you first learn about yuko-datotsu and ki-ken-tai-ichi, it is much easier to learn this if you are square to the opponent and you move straight in and straight through.

If you start doing tsuki too early, you would discourage the beginners from coming in straight at you to develop that kime and kigurai because they would be afraid to get hurt.

Just watch any club where tome-tsuki (stop-tsuki) are allowed on mudansha. End result is usually kendo that isn't very straight or direct...resulting in bad primary attacks.

I personally don’t believe yudansha should even allow beginners to impale themselves on their chudan (tome-tsuki). When they learn how to strike properly, then they can worry about how to deal with or control the opponent’s center.

My two cents…

[gendzwil]

The worst that could happen with men is a broken eardrum (if the attacker swings sideways or the receiver ducks, combined with a soft or improperly tied men) or collarbone (complete miss onto the shoulder). Doh can result in cracked ribs. Kote could conceivable result in broken wrist or fingers. NOTE - I am speculating here, I have never seen such severe injuries myself, only bruises. Except for the collarbone - that happened to one of our dojo members.

Tsuki is the only attack where a miss can result in death. The nodo (the protective flap) only protects if the defender keeps his chin properly tucked. If you leave your chin up, you can take a straight shot to the trachea. I have had this happen, and it wasn't pleasant - fortunately I ran into the tip, not an intentional tsuki or it could have been much worse.

Another thing that can happen is that the shinai can break and the force of the tsuki can drive the resulting splinters forward. There were 2 cases of this in europe 20 or 30 years ago where people died due to splinters entering the eye through the mengane.

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by gendzwil
...There were 2 cases of this in europe 20 or 30 years ago where people died due to splinters entering the eye through the mengane.
Question for the kendoka: recently I saw a bogu set that had a traditional-looking men, but with a Plexiglas or Lexan face shield under it to protect from this very problem. Is this a common addition nowadays?

If not, would it be prudent to wear safety glasses under your men, or would you get a negative response from your peers?

I also used to practice Aikiken (and Aikijo), and we always started our tsuki techniques very slowly, until we had been with our partner long enough to really get a feel for each others' rhythm. Even so, some minor "incidents" occurred. Fortunately bokken don't split into four narrow daggers the way shinai can.

[gendzwil]

Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
Question for the kendoka: recently I saw a bogu set that had a traditional-looking men, but with a Plexiglas or Lexan face shield under it to protect from this very problem. Is this a common addition nowadays?
These were quite popular years ago when the memory of those deaths were fresh, but have faded somewhat. For one thing, lots of people use carbon fibre shinai for everyday practice, so the risk is reduced as they don't break the same way. For another, the shields get dirty and fog so most people don't care for them. One or two in our dojo still wear them. Hasegawa (the company that makes the carbon shinai) now makes a men that has a clear shield instead of the bars over the eyes. I've never seen one in person. In pictures they look pretty ugly.

As far as wearing goggles or whatever - why not? Lots of people wear glasses under the men, usually special frames designed to fit the men. One fellow in our club wore his prescription swim goggles for a while until he got the special glasses, he looked weird (and we of course all gave him a hard time) but it worked fine, no rule against it.

[glad2bhere]

Dear Neil et al:

I can't think of too many techniques that CAN'T get you injured. In Kum Bup we train in something like the fashion of Japanese ken-jutsu, with no or little protection. I say little because my students are allowed/encouraged to wear forearm/hand pads and foam helmets. The only reason I am mentioning any of this is that IMVHO I think it is counterproductive to begin a discussion by characterizing any technique as particularly dangerous. We train in an art whose roots are founded in doing damage. We work to make it safe with various guidelines but I can't think of any way that such activities are going to be 100% safe. To my way of thinking, if this is truely a concern for a student, perhaps they need to consider a change of activity, yes?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[gendzwil]

My point is, the only technique with any significant risk for serious injury really is tsuki. Which is why it is banned in competition for kids and mudansha by just about every federation there is. Kendo is by and large a safe activity, and attention to details such as these is one of the reasons why.

[glad2bhere]

"......Kendo is by and large a safe activity, and attention to details such as these is one of the reasons why....."

Not to mention those guys who get turned-on hitting other fellas with sticks!!! :D :D :D

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by glad2bhere
I can't think of too many techniques that CAN'T get you injured...To my way of thinking, if this is truely a concern for a student, perhaps they need to consider a change of activity, yes?
No, not in my opinion.

It's up to the sensei to make sure that the training is as safe as possible.

We start by learning basics, building a foundation for more advanced techniques later.

We use training tools like bokken, shinai, and iaito becasue they are safer alternatives to live blades.

We throw each other on mats, and learn proper breakfall technique, in order to be safer.

We establish rules for competition to reduce the risk of injuries.

Martial arts practice will never be completely free of danger, but only a fool disregards common-sense precautions all together.

[glad2bhere]

Dear Brian:

"......It's up to the sensei to make sure that the training is as safe as possible....."

I think we would need to find some time to meet about this over a couple of cold ones. I have a pretty good idea of what you are saying. Certainly the teacher is expected to present information in a safe venue. However, I also lay the safe execution of techniques on the practitioner as well. Wild deportment with the intent of doing whatever is necessary to win, take the opponent down, or score the point has often been justified by students as growing out of do-or-die kenjutsu traditions. It is up to the teacher to moderate this to be sure. In the end though, I believe it is up to the practitioner to make a choice (as encouraged by the teacher) to sacrifice a successful technique if its execution might produce a harmful result for ones' partner.

Now, in Kum Bup or Ken jutsu I can see a very different approach where incurring injury takes precedence over the activity. But even so, care is taken not to actually injure a partner (at least not intentionally) and so technique might be in a slower or more stylized manner. These were the places I was coming from when I made my earlier statement. Hope it helps.

Best Wishes,

Bruce