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View Full Version : The dangers of 440 Stainless



The Coffee God
29th January 2004, 03:05
http://www.nihonto.ca/Knives.mpeg

chrismoses
29th January 2004, 03:21
Now THAT's what I'd call some high quality e-budo...

renfield_kuroda
29th January 2004, 03:45
This video should be saved and permanently available for anyone thinking of using stainless steel as anything other than a wall ornament.
I think that guy is incredibly lucky he got hit in a relatively meaty part of the abdomen, not his face or neck.

Regards,

r e n

Steve Delaney
29th January 2004, 04:16
He's only lucky that he was lightly tapping it against the table.
If he was giving it a good whack, his injuries might have been more serious and the blade would have fully penetrated his abdomen.

Tea Guy
29th January 2004, 04:20
This is a good clip. I mean, not that the guy got hurt, but as an example of what not to use. Just imagine what the outcome could have been if he had used greater force than he did though.

AlexM
29th January 2004, 04:36
Nuts...

A bit higher (or lower) and there could have been a legitimate Darwin Award candidate.

He's probably already bred anyway...

Mekugi
29th January 2004, 05:54
Just a note, these are made in Pakistan and are of a very low quality steel. Tool grade stainless steel won't break as easily by a longshot, however it is not the best choice for a nihonto.

The guy was a victim of ignorance....meshed with stupidity.

StanLee
29th January 2004, 09:12
What a twat!

Is his a professional clown? Sure was funny.:D :D :D

Brian Owens
29th January 2004, 10:42
Originally posted by Mekugi
The guy was a victim of ignorance....meshed with stupidity.
I actually E-Mailed him a few years ago to tell him that his handling of swords left much to be desired. I gave him a few suggestions and he E-Mailed me back saying something to the effect that he knew how to handle Japanese swords, but if he did it the "traditional way" he'd lose viewers, and he was there to sell not to give lessons.

Gee, I wonder how many sales he made that day? :rolleyes:

Mekugi
29th January 2004, 13:51
I take that back. He's an idiot.

-R


Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
I actually E-Mailed him a few years ago to tell him that his handling of swords left much to be desired. I gave him a few suggestions and he E-Mailed me back saying something to the effect that he knew how to handle Japanese swords, but if he did it the "traditional way" he'd lose viewers, and he was there to sell not to give lessons.

Gee, I wonder how many sales he made that day? :rolleyes:

G. Zepeda
29th January 2004, 15:11
Coffee God, many thanks to you. Everyone here at work is laughing his or her respective body parts off!
The audio is almost as funny as the video!
What about this guy's partner, he seems really supportive, no?

pgsmith
29th January 2004, 15:42
Hi Russ,

Tool grade stainless steel won't break as easily by a longshot, however it is not the best choice for a nihonto.
Not trying to pick nits or anything, just wanted to point out that you cannot get a nihonto made of stainless. Nihonto means "Japanese sword", and the law does not allow them to make swords except in the traditional method. You can purchase shinken "true swords" made outside of Japan of stainless steel, but there are only a couple of people in the world that actually take the time and effort to properly heat treat stainless to create a decent sword. 99.95% of all stainless steel swords on the market today are too brittle for safe use as swords, and can fail catastrophically shooting steel projectiles in all directions.

There was a really good thread on stainless steel, and steel properties that ran a while back. I don't know if Mr. Lindsey put it in the archives or not. Lots of good stuff in it!

Cheers,

Tea Guy
29th January 2004, 17:55
Originally posted by Mekugi
I take that back. He's an idiot.

-R

I'll second that.


C.Sieg

Ron Tisdale
29th January 2004, 19:51
OUCH!

rt

Maro
29th January 2004, 23:34
Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
I actually E-Mailed him a few years ago to tell him that his handling of swords left much to be desired. I gave him a few suggestions and he E-Mailed me back saying something to the effect that he knew how to handle Japanese swords, but if he did it the "traditional way" he'd lose viewers, and he was there to sell not to give lessons.

Gee, I wonder how many sales he made that day? :rolleyes:

Now would be a perfect time for a follow up email!

:D

Brian Owens
30th January 2004, 07:12
Originally posted by Maro
Now would be a perfect time for a follow up email! :D
Oh! If only I'd saved the originals I could have done a great "follow-up" message.

Maybe I'll send him a "Get Well Soon" message, and as a P.S. ask if he remembers me. :D

Nah, that would be mean spirited, wouldn't it? :up:

Mekugi
30th January 2004, 08:19
Ummm.....yeah, where did you get that?

Funny thing, I know of plenty of shinken nihonto, made in a modern fashion, that are for sale here inside Japan. Most of the crap you see in a catalog is made with a modern process. You have a hard time importing swords from abroad, unless you can prove that they are art (hence the traditional method) or that they are used for Budo practice (then you can get a nice license). I guess those "laws" don't cover all of "Japan" or something.

-Russ

Originally posted by pgsmith
Hi Russ,

Not trying to pick nits or anything, just wanted to point out that you cannot get a nihonto made of stainless. Nihonto means "Japanese sword", and the law does not allow them to make swords except in the traditional method. You can purchase shinken "true swords" made outside of Japan of stainless steel, but there are only a couple of people in the world that actually take the time and effort to properly heat treat stainless to create a decent sword. 99.95% of all stainless steel swords on the market today are too brittle for safe use as swords, and can fail catastrophically shooting steel projectiles in all directions.

There was a really good thread on stainless steel, and steel properties that ran a while back. I don't know if Mr. Lindsey put it in the archives or not. Lots of good stuff in it!

Cheers,

Brian Owens
31st January 2004, 09:28
Originally posted by pgsmith
Not trying to pick nits or anything, just wanted to point out that you cannot get a nihonto made of stainless. Nihonto means "Japanese sword", and the law does not allow them to make swords except in the traditional method...
Most of the active smiths in Japan are using tamahagane (traditional sword steel) from a tatara (smelter) run by the Nihon Bijutsu Token Hozon Kyukai (Society for the Preservation of Japanese Art Swords), however some are experimenting with new methods and new materials within certain limits.

I am not aware of any "law" that prevents a licensed smith from using stainless steel, other than the laws of supply and demand, and propriety.

Do you have any further information about this? Is this something new?

Bill Gallant
31st January 2004, 12:45
Awesome!!! Totally awesome!!

If he ignored knowledgeable peoples advice about how to use a sword, just so he could sell more....he got what he deserved!!

I've never owned a stainless blade, and never will, but as I've been in the steel business for many years, and not seeing the thread on stainless steel on an earlier thread. There are differant types of 440, some brittle some excellant. Stainless blades should be from 440c anything else is just dangerous, even for a wall hanger. 440c just happens to be expensive, when they mention 440 stainless in selling a sword odds are they're not telling you which 440 they are selling!!

There are also flaws in all steels though. I've seen high carbon steels break into bits with a minimal amount of effort.

The rule? just don't do anything "stupid" with your steel sword.

I was kinda hoping that if it had hit lower we could have heard a Mickey Mouse vioce from behind the table... :D


Bill Gallant

Joseph Svinth
31st January 2004, 22:56
There have been several very good threads on steel (try search), but probably the one to which you are referring is http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2114&highlight=steel .

Brian Owens
1st February 2004, 20:07
BTW, does anyone know when the HSN clip aired? And has anyone seen him on the air since?

If that chunk had flown a bit higher he could have ended up as a good salesman for "Zatoichi's Cane Sword."

Now that the dangers of such swords have been clearly demonstrated to them, I wonder if HSN could be held liable if someone buys one of their swords and gets similarly injured? Is the Consumer Product Safety Commision going to order a recall? Are they going to be banned in Boston? Where will it all end?

Kaoru
1st February 2004, 20:34
I was wondering that same thing, Brian-san.

I think they ought not be allowed to advertise any katana as practice swords. They should be sold as wallhangers, if they insist on selling them at all. IMHO, it is very stupid to tell the general public that they can use these things. That being, that the general public is not aware that they need proper training to be able to even use one eventually. Speaking of eventually, they don't even know they shouldn't BE touching anything other than a bokuto if they want to mess around like that. IMHO, it's such a danger for them to even sell these things. They should not be allowed to sell them to people since they are so irresponsible as to do what he did with that sword in the video, and not tell people it is dangerous to use a katana without proper training, and furthermore, didn't state they are cheap and meant only for the wall. They only care about money and not a person's safety. That is so shameful!

I do feel sorry that he got stabbed with the sword, though. I hope he learned something from it. What a hard way to learn the lesson if he understood it.

Stany
22nd February 2004, 02:29
I just dont get it !!!!
Why the Japanese swords so famouse becouse of hard steel and sharpness but why in the movie its broked so easly????

Whired stuff :eek: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Shison
22nd February 2004, 06:18
Because it's a half-tang, inferior metal, poorly-made reproduction of a Katana, that most people in thier ignorance (ignorance by assumption) do not understand it cannot be used for anything other than hanging above a garbage can (I mean, hanging on a wall).

No, I was right the first time

Garbage can

:D

Brian Owens
22nd February 2004, 09:56
Originally posted by Stany
Why the Japanese swords so famouse becouse of hard steel and sharpness but why in the movie its broked so easly????
Because that wasn't a Japanese sword.

It was a cheap copy of a Japanese sword, made of 440 stainless steel (which is brittle), and sold by someone who doesn't know much about swords to people who know even less than he does.

True Japanese swords, and good copies of them, are made with carbon steel blades that are properly heat treated to create a sharp edge yet a somewhat ductile body.

They don't sell well to people who don't know much about swords, because to prevent rust you have to put some time and effort into caring for them. So the cheap junk is made of stainless steel because it's so nice and shiny, and stays that way even if you don't oil it. But they're junk.

And, as we've seen, they're dangerous.

Brian Owens
22nd February 2004, 10:02
Originally posted by Shison
Because it's a half-tang, inferior metal, poorly-made reproduction of a Katana...
Inferior metal, yes. Poorly made, definitely.

But I don't know if it was a half-tang or full-tang blade.

The section that wounded the salesman broke off between the monouchi and the kissaki, as near as I could tell.

The tang didn't fail, just the brains of the "master swordsman" wielding it.

Finny
22nd February 2004, 10:38
awww man, I just keep getting a 404 error.

On a side note, I once had a friend's wallhanger in the boot (trunk for you yanks:p ) of my car at a party, and a friend took it out to look at. I distinctly remember telling him not to swing it at anything or give it to anyone else... so he gives it to my drunk mate Mark, who swings it through a flimsy branch of a teatree, straight into the top of his foot through his shoe. Had to go through several microsurgeries to reattach tendons etc. Not pretty.

I remember as he was being driven off in the car to hospital, I asked him for a look. He'd had his hands on his foot, keeping pressure on from the moment it happened. I peeled the tongue of his shoe apart to see bone, tendons and so on, really clean wound. Then blood just flooded out. Pretty interesting to see.

And, for those who care, besides a long scar and slightly limited mobilitty in his foot, Evo turned out ok. No amount of surgery could fix the stupidity tho.:D

Fervent
22nd February 2004, 14:33
Whats full tang mean? What is tang?

I wouldnt buy a real sword, as it will give any person who sees it the power to kill someone. : / So if a kid gets it, then they can seriously injure someone or kill another kid. Only diciplined people should be allowed to hold a japanese sword.

Brian Owens
22nd February 2004, 22:14
Originally posted by Fervent
Whats full tang mean? What is tang?
The tang is the part of the blade that goes into the handle. In Japanese it's called the nakago.

Good swords and knives have "full tangs" that are almost as long as the handle (tsuka) so there is a good, solid foundation.

Some cheaper blades have only a half-tang, and you can't tell just by looking; you have to remove the handle -- or buy from a reputable dealer.

Originally posted by Fervent
I wouldnt buy a real sword, as it will give any person who sees it the power to kill someone...
Uh, why are you here in the Sword Arts forum?

Originally posted by Fervent
Only diciplined people should be allowed to hold a japanese sword.
I agree. Get thee to a good dojo; you'll get all the discipline you need.

Jock Armstrong
23rd February 2004, 04:15
apparently the Imperial navy experimented with stainless blades for their officers' swords WWII. Rust was a big problem at sea. It didn't take off for the reasons already mentioned but there are a few with significant collector value around.

Aaron Sher
23rd February 2004, 14:12
Anybody know where this video can be found now? I'd like to show it to my kenjutsu students as a "what not to do with a cheap wallhanger" lesson, but it seems to be gone.

Brian Owens
23rd February 2004, 19:24
The most recent link I saw only lasted a few days before being e-Budoed out of existance.

At least it says "Unavailable due to running out of bandwidth. Will be up again March 1st hopefully."

Most just give a 404 error.

I'll post the first working link I find here.

In the mean time, can anyone tell me how to copy a video clip to my hard drive so I'll still have it when the originating site goes down?

Dave Violago
23rd February 2004, 20:27
In the mean time, can anyone tell me how to copy a video clip to my hard drive so I'll still have it when the originating site goes down?
For Windows-based systems:
Right-click on the file and choose "Save target as..."
The File Download and Save As windows will open.
On the Save As window, in the "Save in:" field choose from the drop-down menu a location on your hard drive where you wish to save the file.
Click the Save button.

Dave Violago
23rd February 2004, 20:42
In the mean time, can anyone tell me how to copy a video clip to my hard drive so I'll still have it when the originating site goes down?
For Windows-based systems:
Right-click on the file and choose "Save target as..."
The File Download and Save As windows will open.
On the Save As window, in the "Save in:" field choose from the drop-down menu a location on your hard drive where you wish to save the file.
Click the Save button.

Fervent
23rd February 2004, 22:02
Im sorry if I have offended.

I was incoherent and rushed at the time I wrote that. Please forgive me.:(

Im here cause I love katanas and straight katanas. I love drawing them, and looking at pictures of them and reading about the many different styles of kenjutsu.

But all these stories about how dangerous swords are got me a bit scared of real sword.:D Even though theres one in the backyard shed(the blade is red from rust.)

I liked swords since I was a kid and played with plastic swords. Im interested in knowing more about a certain style called Kurama Ryu.

Anyways, no offense was meant in that other post.:(

Depending on what life type I get by the middle of the year, Ill get a real sword or not. But currently, Im not considering it.:( But I did order some bokkens a while ago. Im still waiting for them to arrive. : /

Anyways, Im a artist, I draw and stuff. Although I cant show it right now cause my computer is being fixed and Im on my little brothers computer.

Im interested in knowing more about the mechanics of sword fighting.

Anyways, I wont be online for a while, I have to finish a certain project which will take quite a while more...

Brian Owens
24th February 2004, 08:23
Originally posted by Dave Violago
...Right-click on the file and choose "Save target as..."
Right click on the name of the link (such as "www.dumbguys.com/knives.jpg") or actually click on the image once it starts playing?

(When it comes to computers, I'm a bit of a "dumb guy" myself. Learning though.)

Brian Owens
24th February 2004, 08:27
Originally posted by Fervent
...But all these stories about how dangerous swords are got me a bit scared of real sword.:D...
A little fear is a good thing. It's keeps you safe. Excessive fear can be reduced by proper training.

Originally posted by Fervent
...Even though theres one in the backyard shed(the blade is red from rust.)...

:eek: Good heavens! Do you know what kind of sword, how old, etc.?

It may be someting worth restoring to good condition.

Dave Violago
24th February 2004, 16:23
Right-click on the name, e.g. "sword_dood.mpeg" then left-click on "Save target as..."

runningfish007
25th March 2004, 19:05
the link is down now, and i never got the chance to show a few people this video. ive searched google and what not and still no hits so if anyone knows any other site with this video please post it...

sry to bring this topic out of the grave but it really does teach a valuable lesson

Aaron Sher
25th March 2004, 19:12
Found it again - http://www.ebaumsworld.com/katanaslip.html