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Denis Torres
6th February 2004, 23:52
I'm new to the forum please excuse my ignorance of Aiki styles. I have a bacground in Chinese and Filipino arts. I'm interested in trying either Aikibujutsu or Hapkido. After visiting an Aikibujutsu and some Hapkido schools I notice the locks are more "deliberate" and "situational" than what I am used to. From a novice point of view it seems the Aiki styles depend more on the wrist as the focal point. In my previous training there seems to be a flow that occurs where you can "feel" the lock as an opportunity presents itself whether it be a wrist, elbow or even shoulder.

If anyone has training in the aforementioned styles and can share some thoughts on the different philosophies I'd appreciate it.

txhapkido
7th February 2004, 05:42
I'm a Hapkido guy. We get a lock where ever we can including scrawny necks as you described.:D

YuSanHapki
14th February 2004, 00:09
As a lever goes, the wrist is extremely effcient. I've been told that the power ratio for the wrist is 50:1 (which is to say for every one unit of energy you put into, you get the effect of fifty). Additionally, as I've been told, the elbow is 20:1 and the sholder 1:1. So while I can agree that I'll take a lock where I can get it, I prefer the wrist =P

John Connolly
14th February 2004, 15:43
Hey Denis,

I have a background in Hapkido and have been training more recently (since 2002, with a few month break) in Aikijujutsu. I don't find there to be a signifigant difference in terms of focus during the lock, but rather a difference in timing and technique in arriving at the proper moment to affect the lock. Hapkido seems often to stress a more Jujutsu-like approach, using leverage and pain to arrive at the moment. Aikijujutsu often uses misdirection and more focus on kuzushi (unbalancing the uke) to arrive at the moment. I haven't noticed more wrist locking in either, but I think that Hapkido often stresses its affinity for the idea of having 1,000,000,000 techniques (exaggerating, but you get the idea) and spends a lot of time training unlikely and showy locking techniques-- which can certainly help in training body mechanics, but I think hurts depth of focus.

Also, wrist locks are great from a grab. Extremely painful and effective against most people (I have used them as a bouncer), but not dependable from a strike (in my opinion)-- too difficult to pull off in a ramped-up adrenaline moment, where an arm lock or body throw would be more accessible and likely to "do the job".

Anyway, I think your "feeling" the lock opportunity present itself is the same for Hapkido and Aikijujutsu (or Systema or Aikido or Judo, etc etc) as it is for Qin Na or FMA. It's a matter of familiarity with movement and body mechanics, that is often at first trained deliberately (as you said), but then, as a jazz musician (who has learned deliberate musical skills, hooks, progessions, breaks) you improvise, you feel the technique happen, rather than look for it or force it.

Denis Torres
14th February 2004, 18:23
Thanks John, thoughtful post. I have access to Hapkido and Aikibujutsu. I must now however ask you the "impossible" question, now that you've had exposure to both...

Keep in mind before you answer I'm 49, 5'11" and a fairly muscled 280ish. I don't like to do elaborate breakfalls and obviously am not into flashy kicks. Is the choice obvious?;)

John Connolly
14th February 2004, 18:49
Hi Denis,

You'll have to breakfall in either, or you'll break when you fall. Also, Hapkido and Aikij(b)ujutsu can be different at different schools. I have experienced Hapkido that was mostly about demo techniques, flying kicks, and elaborate locks-- unrealistic for fighting. But I have also experienced more martial Hapkido: very direct and brutal, no kicks above the waist, cross-training with ground work. In Aikijujutsu (much more esoteric and hard to find), I got lucky-- did some homework and sniffing around far in advance of attending classes.

Essentially my take is:

Hapkido-- Many schools with different focuses, some not much more than Tae Kwon Do with Judo throws, others very progressive and reality oriented, and everything in between.

Aikij(b)ujutsu-- Some charlatans out there, teaching half-assed Aikido-Karate-Judo medley, a few well hidden schools of Koryu Aiki or reasonably well done Gendai Aiki.

Either art done well is good stuff. But, certainly if you hate kicking, then Aiki styles do have less of it than the Korean arts.

Good luck!

Denis Torres
14th February 2004, 19:19
I know this is huge generalization but I know alot of seasoned martial artist that poopoo the Korean arts. Surely I've seen some high level Korean martial artist but as you mention, there seems to be alot of McDojos in the Korean art especially in TKD. Also, as you said alot of Hapkido is spiced up TKD. Let me ask you this, since like me you do a lot of pre-investigating, I've visited several Hapkido schools and, like you said, there are a myriad of atmosheres. Are there any tell tale signs, or red flags, that you can spot right off the bat that would tell you to politely leave. I'm looking at a couple of schools and one has a lot of self defense and kicks 100% waist and below, the other is very intense classes M-F for a few hours and stresses every element of fighting but does have a lot of high kicking. Almost 45 types of kicks in their curriculum:

www.Blackknight.com

Opinions, feedback. Also, what about Han mu do. An ecclectic art combining Hapkido with judo and Ki training? There are some of those schools around as well which I will visit next week. Thanks for your input in advance.

John Connolly
14th February 2004, 20:46
Denis,

You've done enough MA training to know what you don't want and how to tell if a teacher is any good, I'm sure. But specifically to Hapkido, I'd watch out for forms (kata) training-- a direct influence of TKD. Also, a lot of HKD schools are run as businesses rather than clubs (nothing wrong with business, but...) and I'd watch out for Black Belt Club Membership or extended contracts. By the way, I am not against high kicking per se, but just as a "go to" technique for self defense... certainly it can help develop coordination, speed, and flexibility-- but you're never going to jump-spin-kick an opponent of of his horse in this lifetime.

As far as Han Mu Do goes, I think everything tastes better with more Judo, don't you? But I am a Ki/Chi scrooge, and not likely to be helpful in terms of deciding about that. Again, check the school out to see if it's the right flavor for you.

Black Knight has a cheesy name, but at least their rates are reasonable (judging from the website only), and they aren't wearing red-white-n-blue or camoflage gi, which is a plus. If they've been around since '84 and still are relaxed about their payment policy (as it seems) then they probably are a good place to check out.

Well, that's all I've got, 'coz I'm about to head to the airport. Going to Spain for a couple weeks! Good luck on your investigation, and don't sign anything until you've seen everything that seems interesting in your area (and preferably don't sign a contract at all!)

Denis Torres
14th February 2004, 22:23
Thanks and have a nice time in Spain the land of my ancestors, been there several times. Ah I can smell the paella simmering while I sip my sherry!

txhapkido
16th February 2004, 07:30
Also, what about Han mu do

Han Mu Do was put together by Dr. He Young Kimm who has great lineage. He was my Hapkido instructor's teacher after J.R. West returned from Vietnam.

And if the HKD schools you visit look more like TKD just ease out the door.