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Denis Torres
7th February 2004, 01:46
I've studied Okinawa-te and some Goju. I enjoyed the tuite (standing grappling, joint locks, etc.) aspect of training. I am now looking at some dojos in the Atlanta area and the Shotokan and Shito-Ryu schools say they have no such thing. Question, is this an individual dojo thing or is it safe to say that tuite is mostly part of Okinawan styles? If not, which Japanese styles of Karate have a significant amount of this type of training? To take it on step further which style of Karate traditionally has a greatest amount of tuite in their curriculum be it Okinawan or Japanese?

I must add finally that I did visit a Shorinji-ryu school that did have some good joint locking but again is this just a rare instance in the world of traditional Japanese Karate systems such as Shotokan and Shito-ryu?

Dojo recommendations in the Atlanta area????

Casper Baar
7th February 2004, 07:52
Goodday Denis,

Wado-ryu has locking and throwing techniques and is a Japanese style.
But I wouln't call these techniques tuite, they have a different historical background. Wado-ryu is karate on the other end off the spectrum (compaired to Goju).

good luck finding a dojo,

Hank Irwin
7th February 2004, 10:43
Where did you find Shorinjiryu in Atl.?

shisochin#1
7th February 2004, 12:55
Most traditional schools do include the joint locking techniques. I have also visited several of the schools inthe Atlanta area and was very disapointed. I believe the shorinji ryu school you may be talking baout is the one in Kennasaw if so that school is a off shoot of Shotokan. here is a site taht includes most of the schools in the atlanta area. www.atlantamartialarts.com

Denis Torres
7th February 2004, 13:08
Here is the Shorinji-ryu Atlanta site:


http://www.mindspring.com/~semartialarts/yamakan.html


I'd appreciate any additional insight into the Karate scene in Atlanta. Good schools, decent schools...what to stay away from, etc.

Denis Torres
7th February 2004, 13:11
Ron,

Is your Shito school related to Shihan Dixon's school currently in Smyrna. I've been there several times and didn't see a lot of joint locking.

Rob Alvelais
7th February 2004, 13:31
We do some joint locking and such as part of our application work of our kata. As Casper indicated for Wado, we don't refer to it as tuite. It's not the main thing that we do like punching and kicking, but it's there. Anyway, from my experience, we do every bit as much joint locking as part of our kata applications as I've seen in Goju.

Gene, how is it with your faction of Shito?

Rob

shisochin#1
7th February 2004, 13:47
Denis,
Not really its about an hour or so south. I have visited him a time or 2 and was very dissapointed he talks a good game. However he has included several shotokan kata and I would'nt call it a Shito ryu style and I do not believe he has an understanding of the bunkai of the kata. I teach Shito ryu classes on tuesday and friday nights and a Kobudo class on thursday nights. I am also a student of Shihan Gene Williams and yes we do apply joint locks as well as throws and sweeps in our bunkai.

will szlemko
7th February 2004, 17:14
Originally posted by Denis Torres
I've studied Okinawa-te and some Goju. I enjoyed the tuite (standing grappling, joint locks, etc.) aspect of training. I am now looking at some dojos in the Atlanta area and the Shotokan and Shito-Ryu schools say they have no such thing.


Hi,

Speaking for Shotokan, it is not called tuite but it is there. Unfortunately most instructors are either not aware of it or tend not to teach it, that said I have felt many upper level instructors use it in their applications and even sparring.

will

Denis Torres
7th February 2004, 18:29
Ron,

Do you have a website? Does your lineage have a website? If not, can you email me and let me know a little bit more about your dojo in terms of location and curriculum? Leave a number where I can reach you if you'd rather do it by phone. Thanks.

Hank Irwin
8th February 2004, 02:07
I am right down the road from both you guys. I teach Shorinjiryu & Kobujitsu on a private basis from my home. I have never heard of Shorinji in Kennesaw except for the Shorinji Kempo folks at the university, not the same. I have also been trying to find the time to visit Gene Williams Sensei for the past few months. Hopefully this month. But anyway, am home part-time due to work schedule, but is so irregular, you can never tell. Please come by if you can. Smyrna is only 15 minutes away. I live off Sandy Plains, close to Shallowford Rd.:D

Denis Torres
8th February 2004, 15:56
Hank,

Uchina to-de no jutsu. Do you mean by this very little or no tuite? The site below has some breakdown of the Shorinji-ryu styles. Where do you fit in terms of lineage and curriculum? Also, what van Horne sensei teaches at KSU is what in your opinion...Okinawan Shorinji-ryu kempo and if so how does that differ from what you teach????

http://www3.sympatico.ca/jeffrey.muir/jeffkdev.htm

Please email me and let me know more about your home schooling in terms of class size, facilities, cost, location and anything you'd like to add. Thanks for chiming in and look forward to hearing from you.

Hank Irwin
9th February 2004, 02:40
The system I learned comes from Kyan Chotoku O'Sensei. I learned from Roy Osborne Sensei. He learned from Kise Sama, who learned from Maeshiro O'Sensei, Shimabuku O'Sensei. Strange though, I have done kata right next to Shimabuku Zenpo Sensei's students at seminars, and they are a little different. Anyone, though, who teaches & preserves what Kyan O'Sensei handed down is doing Shorinjiryu. WanSu, AnnaKu, & Seisan are the foundation kata for the system.

Troll Basher
9th February 2004, 10:05
Originally posted by Denis Torres
I've studied Okinawa-te and some Goju. I enjoyed the tuite (standing grappling, joint locks, etc.) aspect of training. I am now looking at some dojos in the Atlanta area and the Shotokan and Shito-Ryu schools say they have no such thing. Question, is this an individual dojo thing or is it safe to say that tuite is mostly part of Okinawan styles? If not, which Japanese styles of Karate have a significant amount of this type of training? To take it on step further which style of Karate traditionally has a greatest amount of tuite in their curriculum be it Okinawan or Japanese?

I must add finally that I did visit a Shorinji-ryu school that did have some good joint locking but again is this just a rare instance in the world of traditional Japanese Karate systems such as Shotokan and Shito-ryu?

Dojo recommendations in the Atlanta area????

Dennis,

I have lived in Tokyo/Japan for going on 16 years and have never found let alone met any Japanese karateka that have heard of tuite in Japanese (mainland) systems.

This could be do to the fact that my teacher coined the word “tuite” by combing the Okinwan word “tui” (tori in Japanese) and the Japanese word “te” and made “torite”.
In Okinawan it would be “tuidi” and in Japanese it would be “torite”.
Either way, I have never met anyone school or system that knows of it or teaches it. Japanese dojo are basically “kicky-punchy” only.
Okinawan styles incorporate “tuite” type of technique often under a different name though.
Wado use Jujutsu-esque techniques in their system but this might be due to the fact that Otsuka, the founder of Wado, was a jujutsu stylist.

Rob Alvelais
9th February 2004, 14:21
Welcome Back, Robert!

Rob

hectokan
9th February 2004, 15:39
Hey man que pasa man,this is Rico swave here man,you see my man the okinawans man,they really good man but there only one problem man,the Japanese already have high level tuite in most jujutsu styles man,so they kinda of liked the kicking & punching much more man,you see man jujutsu man was not so polished in this departmentman you see man,so they emphasized it much much more man.It's evident man,in most all Japanese karate styles man,that the kicking & punching man became there number one priority man.If they wanted to do tuite man at a high level man,they could have just facilmente(easy) man just trained in any of 750 japanese jujutsu styles man.

asta la vista.

Jussi Häkkinen
9th February 2004, 15:45
Shimabukuro Zenpo's faction is Shorin-Ryu, not Shorinji-Ryu. Shorin-Ryu Seibukan to be exact.

Of course, there are spin-offs, such as Shorinji-Ryu Renshinkan, which is a Japanized version of Seibukan (and later developed into its own style). Founder of this style is Isamu Tamotsu, who studied Shorin-Ryu under Zenryo Shimabukuro (Zenpo Shimabukuro's father). Renshinkan kata differs a little from Seibukan, being "competitionized" a bit - a good example is a foot rise in Gojushi-ho, which is done as a very high one in Renshinkan. Current head of Renshinkan, Iwao Tamotsu, told that the change was intentional.

So, yes, there is difference. Of course, there's Joen Nakazato's Okinawa Shorinji-Ryu, which differs a bit from Seibukan as well. That is mainly due to Kyan's way of teaching - he taught kata a bit differently to different individuals.

chizikunbo
9th February 2004, 20:11
"To take it on step further which style of Karate traditionally has a greatest amount of tuite in their curriculum be it Okinawan or Japanese?"
I would have to say Okinawan, from my experience Ryukyu Kempo, and Ryu Te (both okinawan styles) use tuite as the main part of their curriculum, because it is contained in their kata,

Naihanchi Shodan-Sandan
Pinan Shodan-Godan
Tomari-Seisan
Kusanku
Passai
Neisashi
These (I beleive) contain the most Tuite and KyuSho

" I am now looking at some dojos in the Atlanta area?"
I would check with the Ryu Te Oyata Shin Shu Ho organization, or the United RyuKyu Kempo alliance, or Blue Sky RyuKyu Kenpo Kobujitsu Kai,
these are the main RyuKyu kempo organizations:D

Denis Torres
9th February 2004, 22:39
Joshua,

Believe it or not I checked all those organizations but before that I have checked out all public dojos. No RK being taught here. There is an elderly gentleman that is highly ranked but only makes weapons at this point in his life. Very nice man.

In researching those sites and with my previous research I have to say, "what you got is what I want!"

Send one of your buddies down here to Atlanta to fill a niche.

Hank Irwin
10th February 2004, 03:20
Tuite is an advanced waza, and has to be used at just the right time. In many situations it is not used, like knock out waza, no use for tuite. You will not find anyone that will just teach you tuite, and if so, is not real tuite, just show. You must go through the training to get to it.
For the most part, I have not met many Japanese KarateKa that knew much about tuite, but I am sure there are. Many Okinawan teachers moved to southern Japan in early 20th century. I am sure they took what they learned with them too.
:D But not all Okinawan systems teach tuite. They may teach kata that has tuite in it, but do not teach it to the students. There is only 2 reasons for this: either they don't know it, or you are not experienced enough to learn it yet.

Casper Baar
10th February 2004, 15:47
What is tuite in your opinion?
Is it the wrestling part of karate or is it the usage of existing wrestling arts for wrestling applications to karate-kata or something else?

From reading Shoshin Nagamine's :"tales of okinawa's great masters" I got the impression that wrestling (Okinawan sumo) was somewhat of a national pastime on the Ryu kyu islands in the past. This made me assume that many of the karate students from before WWII were good wrestlers before they started their karate training. However I imagine this type off wrestling to be more like a rough kind of judo while I imagine tuite to be more of the wrist-twisting kind.

To rephrase my question:
Could someone please tell me
1 If tuite is an integral part of Okinawan karate or something that has always come from different other outside arts.
2 What kind of techniques are used in tuite.

Thank you,

chizikunbo
10th February 2004, 16:57
I will do some reserch for you I know of some people who are not in large organizations that may be down there, if I find one I will inform you:cool:

Liam Cognet
10th February 2004, 19:50
Hi all,

I have trained in Goju, Shotokan(only a year) and Shito Ryu.

Shotokan had no tuite although on one occasion, our instructor showed us a couple of basic arm locks.

In Shito Ryu we used some tuite. Most offecsive movements or movements used to cause damage were stikes. Tuite was used as a means to manouver into a position to strike or to escape from one who would grapple.

I now train in Okinawan Goju Ryu in witch tuite is an important part. After training with tuite I could never go back to those KickyPunchyDo styles. As the saying goes:

Once you've had tuite you can never go back.

I'm off to grapple me some breakfast. Cheerio.

Liam

Hank Irwin
11th February 2004, 01:38
Tuite is not "wrist" locks. And for the most part you cannot explain it. You have to feel it. Tegumi(okinawan wrestling) is to Okinawans what "comboys & indians" or GI Joe playing was to us as youngsters.(Americans that is, maybe others) But it is not like the wrestling we know. Tuite is Okinawan. To use as a fighting system? Usually a "diversion" is used first before applying Tuite. Example: Naihanchi Sho: opening motion; 2 open hands palm up, right over left. Invert towards the floor covering groin(2 fists away), palms down, fingers pointing down, left over right. Tuite. Bunkai: Someone pushes or grabs for your shirt over your heart, both hands palm toward chest, cover hand and pin it, as you turn toward right and take little step over right with left (just like kata shows, is actuallygroin cover& toe kick) opponent goes to ground if you follow through. This actually puts so much stress at the outer wrist and arm that if done fast enough will result in severe damage, possibly cripple the arm. That is not how you begin to learn Tuite though. Naihanchi is an advanced kata with many advanced technique in it, including Tuite. But as I said before, you must feel Tuite to know its value and to know how to properly execute it. It is also very demanding in practice, and you must be careful not to do too much because of injuries. A full session of Tuite waza will leave your arms and shoulders and butt sore as hell the next day. Zhing Gu Shui, Zhing Gu Shui, Zhing Gu Shui Hahahaha!!!:D

80's Rocker
20th February 2004, 13:49
Chin Na & Tuite are basically the same thing. At least that is what I have been told. I study an art called ShudoKan Karate, Which they showed no tuite or even joint locks period, in the art. They did all of the basic kata's with no bunkai applications to it.

Patrick Bevatori

TimoS
20th February 2004, 18:23
Originally posted by Jussi Häkkinen
Renshinkan kata differs a little from Seibukan, being "competitionized" a bit - a good example is a foot rise in Gojushi-ho, which is done as a very high one in Renshinkan. Current head of Renshinkan, Iwao Tamotsu, told that the change was intentional.


If you're talking about the foot rise relatively early in the kata, Matsuoi sensei actually teaches it as a sokutogeri, but then again our Renshinkan here in Finland is a bit different from what Nidai Soke teaches thanks to our lineage :)

chizikunbo
24th February 2004, 14:37
It appears that their are some teachers(or practicioners) in the area but not with open dojos I will see what the assosiations can do.:smilejapa

chizikunbo
24th February 2004, 14:48
Well you could also learn the basics through the ryu te tapes(they are a bit pricy though($40 each)
they can be purchased at Ryu Te Supply(books and tapes) (http://members.rogers.com/ryu_te_supply/Books%20and%20Tapes.htm)

They are as follows

1.Nahanchi Shodan
2.Naihanchi Nidan
3.Naihanchi Sandan
4.Tomari Seisan
5.Pinan Shodan
6.Pinan Nidan
7.Pinan Sandan
8.Pinan Rokudan
9.Pinan Godan
10.Passai
11.Kusanku
12.Neisashi
13.Bunkai (Techniques and Tuite)($55) this tape used to cost ($113)

This (and some weapons kata) woudl probebly rank you as a first-third dan, but I am afraid this is al you would e able to get for now.
Also George Dillman's Book "Tuite Kyusho" is pretty good as well as his other books, hope I was able to help:D

Jussi Häkkinen
24th February 2004, 15:56
Originally posted by TimoS
If you're talking about the foot rise relatively early in the kata, Matsuoi sensei actually teaches it as a sokutogeri, but then again our Renshinkan here in Finland is a bit different from what Nidai Soke teaches thanks to our lineage :)

I know that alteration. Yokogeri/sokutogeri is an interesting addition to that kata - especially when there's no such kick in Tamotsu's version and certainly not in Seibukan version. It also does not fit into the bunkai at all. Since that "variation" has been around for ages in Finland, I'd probably see it as an misunderstanding of then young and very athletic Matsuoi-sensei. I have seen the videos from his early days in Finland and the yokogeri was there then, too. His pace was very fast and it was obvious that he enjoyed the athletic side of his performance.

TimoS
24th February 2004, 16:36
Originally posted by Jussi Häkkinen
I know that alteration. Yokogeri/sokutogeri is an interesting addition to that kata - especially when there's no such kick in Tamotsu's version and certainly not in Seibukan version. It also does not fit into the bunkai at all. Since that "variation" has been around for ages in Finland, I'd probably see it as an misunderstanding of then young and very athletic Matsuoi-sensei. I have seen the videos from his early days in Finland and the yokogeri was there then, too. His pace was very fast and it was obvious that he enjoyed the athletic side of his performance.

Interesting theory. Naturally I can't say if you're wrong or right ;) I guess the only way to know for sure if it existed in Tamotsu Isamu's version would be to either see a video of his performance (don't think there are too many of those around) or to see for example how Ikubo sensei or some other close student does it.

ryujikan
26th February 2004, 08:37
My style of Matsumura Shorin Ryu teaches Tuite in addition to kata. In fact I find it hard to understand how you can properly understand kata without understanding the Bunkai and Tuite within the appications or techniques of the kata?

Most Japanese systems have a seperate system of Jujitsu they teach to supplement their karate training. This might be due to the fact that Funakoshi and others that took karate to Japan may not have had the solid foundation in Tuite that many of the older Okinawan masters possessed or it may simply be that so many systems of Jujitsu existed and were openly taught that it was not felt Tuite was necessary training in Karate in mainland Japan?

The Tuite of my system is almost identical to Shaolin Chi-Na. This makes perfect since when you uderstand that much of our system is thought to have come from the Fukien White Crane system of Kung Fu.

Frank

saigo_tak
8th March 2004, 23:17
Originally posted by Jussi Häkkinen
Renshinkan kata differs a little from Seibukan, being "competitionized" a bit - a good example is a foot rise in Gojushi-ho, which is done as a very high one in Renshinkan. Current head of Renshinkan, Iwao Tamotsu, told that the change was intentional.

~>may i ask ~ who told you this? that it was "competitionized?"

Originally posted by TimoS
[about Sokutou keri in 54ho]
Interesting theory. Naturally I can't say if you're wrong or right I guess the only way to know for sure if it existed in Tamotsu Isamu's version would be to either see a video of his performance (don't think there are too many of those around) or to see for example how Ikubo sensei or some other close student does it.

~>Tamotsu Souke-sensei performs kata, kihon, etc as his father did it. this is what makes Renshinkan karate. the tradition being passed from generation to generation. the only thing that is different is "the heart" that is present in execution of techniques.

Originally posted by TimoS
If you're talking about the foot rise relatively early in the kata, Matsuoi sensei actually teaches it as a sokutogeri, but then again our Renshinkan here in Finland is a bit different from what Nidai Soke teaches thanks to our lineage.

~>then is this REALLY *RENSHINKAN* karate? if Matsuoi sensei does not [refuses to] teach Renshinkan as it is at Sohonbu then is he teaching the tradition i mentioned? as i understand it... didn't Matsuoi-sensei initially go to Finland with only a nidan? and he was sent by Ikubo sensei of Hokkaido... and NOT by Isamu Tamotsu? and do you know WHEN Isamu Tamotsu was finally told about this "manuver?"

Takamori Kaida
IRF - Mountain View - USA

TimoS
9th March 2004, 08:09
Originally posted by saigo_tak
[B]Tamotsu Souke-sensei performs kata, kihon, etc as his father did it. this is what makes Renshinkan karate. the tradition being passed from generation to generation. the only thing that is different is "the heart" that is present in execution of techniques.


I can't know for sure if this is really the case, only according to what we've been told by our seniors who have seen both, they are mostly the same, but that there are some differences in how they execute the techniques in kata (e.g. in timing) and for example the Yakusoku Kumite sets are somewhat different. Like I said, I can't say for sure, since I've never seen Tamotsu Isamu alive.


as i understand it... didn't Matsuoi-sensei initially go to Finland with only a nidan? and he was sent by Ikubo sensei of Hokkaido... and NOT by Isamu Tamotsu? and do you know WHEN Isamu Tamotsu was finally told about this "manuver?"

No, I must say that I don't know the answer to your last question. Would you mind telling me ? I can also ask some of the seniors here if they know. As for being nidan when he came here, yes, I believe that is correct as I also believe it is a fact that Ikubo sensei sent him

Timothy.G.B.
9th March 2004, 17:09
I have been trying to learn Okinawan Shorin for about 7 years now and have not heard the term "tuite" used by my Sensei or by his Sensei in Okinawa. Maybe it's called another name? At the more advanced stages we learn irikumi (inside fighting) and maybe that is what people are talking about.

Hard to get a handle on what everyone means by "tuite". Perhaps someone has already explained it in previous posts and I missed it, but if not, what is everyone talking about, joint locks, grappling? I don't understand :(

Tim Black

Hank Irwin
9th March 2004, 19:14
If you are not learning tuite in Shorinryu, maybe your Sensei is not teaching it or knows none. 7 years though? and no mention. What form of Shorinryu are you learning? If Japanese I could understand, but Okinawan? Seems very odd. All forms of Shorinryu have tuite,torite,subido,and kyusho jitsu in their kata. Unless of course your Sensei won't teach it to you until you become NeDan or higher. Doesn't make sense though. JMO

Timothy.G.B.
9th March 2004, 19:35
Hank:

It may in fact be that I have been learning tuite all along, but I still haven't received any indication of what the heck everyone is referring to. You mention that I should be learning it in Shorin and, in a previous post, you gave an example of "tuite" regarding the opening move in Nahainchi shodan.

It sounds to me like what you are referring to is pre-arranged self-defense moves. What I am curious about is...why not just punch the person in a vulnerable area, instead of doing all of that other stuff with the hands etc? If someone grabs you they cannot defend themselves so why would you want to grab them back? If that is tuite, then I am certain I have not been learning it. I have no doubt that the move you described works, it's just that I have always been taught to hit someone as soon as, or before they ever touch you! Maybe it is just different fighting philosophy.

Regardless, what I have been learning includes kakie, findi, tenshin, and irikumi, as I mentioned before, and i know that to try and explain them would be very difficult. Perhaps tuite is, as you have said, too hard to describe in an e-budo post :)


Tim Black

Iron Chef
9th March 2004, 20:26
What if torite literally meant something like releasing of hands? What if one of threats of the day ( century ago or so, lets say 1897 just for the heck of it ) were for more than one adversary to assault you by grabbing your hands and taking your money which may have been kept up your sleave. Maybe they would even hit you with small sticks when doing this. What if this torite stuff was used primarily to release the hands so they could strike and if a situation called for it, control your opponent so you could maximize the hurt from your atemi waza?, or if more prudent release yourself so you could run and get even with the !!!!!!!! at a later date? Just wondering.

Kakie, Irikumi and Sanchin Ido. Very cool, sounds like Goju.

Jussi Häkkinen
10th March 2004, 06:26
Originally posted by saigo_tak
[B]~>may i ask ~ who told you this? that it was "competitionized?"


The comment about the high foot rise and about the change from the Okinawan version's lower and faster foot rise towards the current slow and high rise in Renshinkan comes from Iwao Tamotsu in 1997 when asked about the change.

The "competitionized" is my own interpretation of his words. Other words I might use would be "aesthesized" and "athleticized". Difference to the original version (that is done in most Kyan-derived schools) is very obvious. However, change is understandable and I don't see it as a negative thing. Only "un-understandable" variant of this kata is Matsuoi's side-kick version.



then is this REALLY *RENSHINKAN* karate? if Matsuoi sensei does not [refuses to] teach Renshinkan as it is at Sohonbu then is he teaching the tradition i mentioned?

That question is valid and was asked in here as well. The supporters of honbu-way didn't get much support. Argument of the other side (and well, I think that it actually is valid - in martial arts world) - was that Matsuoi was a Renshi, named by Tamotsu to handle the Finnish Renshinkan. I guess that it makes some sense. If the head of the style accepts the alteration and even supports it by granting a new grade, I guess it's pretty safe to say that style still is "close enough".

Personally, I might talk about "Matsuoi-ha". But this is only my personal opinion.

And in Finland? Well, some of the supporters of "honbu-way" that seeked the roots of the style went to search Isamu Tamotsu's roots - and found them.



didn't Matsuoi-sensei initially go to Finland with only a nidan? and he was sent by Ikubo sensei of Hokkaido... and NOT by Isamu Tamotsu? and do you know WHEN Isamu Tamotsu was finally told about this "manuver?"

That, indeed, was an interesting period in Renshinkan's history in Finland.

Hank Irwin
10th March 2004, 13:17
Edsan gives good description. Releasing hands, controling hands, seizing hands and such, KusanKu opening motion, big circle from top to bottom, tuite & kyusho, at least that is, in the system I learned, but that is only one bunkai for opening waza. There are a few more. When someone grabs your right hand with their left, you pick your right hand up(like in Naihanchi), palm up, puts tuite path in position, this at first looks much like aiki, but is not. One thing I have found in my 35 years in Karatedo is that Japanese counterparts of Okinawan Karate will be less than forthcoming with information to non-Japanese. Sad, but true. Aside from that, Tuite is advanced waza, if you can't hit the guy, most times you won't be able to grab them either. Tuite, IMO, is best suited for the gaurds at prisons, police officers, security teams and for the older generation. It may have evolved as such, you never know. JMO :D

Jussi Häkkinen
11th March 2004, 11:14
Originally posted by Jussi Häkkinen
Only "un-understandable" variant of this kata is Matsuoi's side-kick version.


To fix my own comment: I recently got informed about Ikeda Hoshu's (Isamu Tamotsu's student until 1969) Shorin-Ryu Yoshinmon style. In the foot rise -part of Gojushi-ho, Hoshu teaches yoko-geri (side kick) in a first one, ushiro-geri (back kick) in a second one. So, it would seem to me that the side kick version has been taught in a wider scale in some occasion.

One interesting thing for me in Shorinji-Ryu Renshinkan is the second foot rise. Why does it differ from the first one - first is a slow rise to yoko-geri position, second is a slow rise to ushiro-geri position. That difference does not occur in Kyan-derived Okinawan styles. Could someone possible tell me about the bunkai differences (or other things) regarding these techniques and the reason behind them.

Mr. Kaida?