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David Toner
7th February 2004, 07:00
Greetings. I'm new to the forum and wondered what everyone could tell me in regards to the differences between having Dan grades above black belt vs. a menkyo base system.
Are there any examples of modern Budo systems that use Menkyo rather than kyu/dan grades? Also what are the requirements for menkyo certification ranther than Dan requirements?


Thanks
David Toner

ulvulv
7th February 2004, 13:04
I know a japanese instructor that has both a dan-grade and koryu-grade in the same ryu.
those "after" her, is only awarded dan-grades.
she has rokudan and mokuroku
In that ryu the grades are mokuroku, shomokuroku and menkyo kaiden. Maybe the modern equivalent is the shogo-titles you have in modern arts like kendo and iaido, with renshi, kyoshi and hanshi.

Brian Owens
7th February 2004, 22:25
Originally posted by David Toner
...Are there any examples of modern Budo systems that use Menkyo rather than kyu/dan grades?...
I know of one example.

Minoru Kurita was a student of Morihei Uyeshiba. After Morihei's death Kurita Sensei left the Aikikai and formed his own Aikido organization, the Seiki Kai. It uses the kyu/dan ranking system.

He also has (or had. I haven't heard much about them in a while.) a sword/staff school, the Seiki Ryu. It uses a Shoden, Chuden, Okuden, Menkyo Kaiden ranking system. Shoden, Chuden, and Okuden are each further broken down into three levels, Shoden-no-san, Shoden-no-ni, Shoden-no-ichi, etc. for a total of 10 grades including menkyo kaiden.

That is the only example of which I have direct knowledge.

hyaku
8th February 2004, 03:18
Originally posted by ulvulv
I Maybe the modern equivalent is the shogo-titles you have in modern arts like kendo and iaido, with renshi, kyoshi and hanshi.

Sorry but I not would not go as far as to compare those two. Bottom end I would have compared roku/nana dan with mokuroku.

Top end Menkyo Kaiden can mean full transmission of a Kobudo Ryu ha. If we are going to give up words like Soke we should at the same time give recognition to this.

ZNKR issues Renshi, Kyoshi etc out like "take away". Pass the equivelant dan grade and you unceremoniously get the Shogo. Look down a list for the Kendo Teachers Association and they all have it. How many Yudansha in ZNKR?

To answer the first question: If you join a ryu with the Shogo system the answer is "Expect nothing" If at all in your whole lifetime you get anything, it will be the first two. The last is usually reserved for the very top. Even Menkyo Kaiden are issued with certain reservations as to who you teach and where you teach.

You go to the dojo, you practice, you teach.

One can only hope that new Menkyo Kaiden can fill the shoes of an old one. A tremendous responsibility. The old one can say " You are all ok. I taught him all I know". Then what you realize its Sempai has gone and another Sempai steps in and every one is one step further away from the door. Being near the door is the best place you learn so much. Its matter of transmitting things to the whole dojo.

Sogo Budo is "Sogo". Its like a mill. You can look at this years Shonen (kids) Kendoka and know who will be coming into the dojo in eight years time. They will all have Nidan when they arrive and leave with Sandan. Yondan at Uni and in another four years they are junior teachers and all Renshi. Middle age are "all" Kyoshi later Hanshi.

They seem to base it according to area size. For example we only have around six or seven. In Fukuoka I meet four Hachidan in one dojo.

Abroad the recognition will only go to the few established heads of association.

I cant help think that Westerners seem to hold these these particular titles in more esteem than Japanese. A lot get them as (Meiyo) an honorary title and certainly not based on experience. Maybe it would help of they did not give them away so easy.

Hyakutake Colin

gmlc123
8th February 2004, 04:45
In relation to Jodo. The ZNKR Seiteigata has a Kyu/Dan grading system.

In the case of Shinto Muso Ryu Jodo (Koryu), it's usually an Iemoto system. In which case there are scrolls as follows.

Oku Iri
Sho-mokuroku
Go-mokuroku
Menkyo
Menkyo Kaiden

And only Menkyo Kaiden can issue scrolls / catalogs to students. In SMR there are only two Gaijin Menkyo Kaiden outside of Japan, as far as I'm aware.

Menkyo Kaiden are not given out lightly in SMR, typically require a continuous training for some 30+ years. Complete fluency in Japanese, indepth understanding of Japanese culture and of course, some skill in Shodo apart from the waza of the ryu ha.

Hyakutake san's admonishment of "Expect Nothing" certainly holds true.. just worry about training and learning with the correct attitude which hopefully leads to Mu.

Scrolls and belts should not be the motivation to do Kobudo, IMHO.


Originally posted by David Toner
Greetings. I'm new to the forum and wondered what everyone could tell me in regards to the differences between having Dan grades above black belt vs. a menkyo base system.
Are there any examples of modern Budo systems that use Menkyo rather than kyu/dan grades? Also what are the requirements for menkyo certification ranther than Dan requirements?


Thanks
David Toner

renfield_kuroda
9th February 2004, 01:30
In Mugairyu Iaihyodo, we have both a modern kyu/dan system and the traditional menkyo system. They exist in parallel.
Kyu/dan are tested for a given to most students who try hard and progress. For the truly dedicated students, in parallel we have the traditional menkyo system:
okuirisho (usually around 5dan but can be gotten earlier)
shihan (usually after 6dan)
menkyo (usually after 7dan)
menkyo-kaiden (usually after 8dan)

In addition we have assistant instructor's license, practice instructor's license (bashocho-shidoin, usually around the same time as okuirisho), and instructor's license (kai-bashocho, usually around shihan.)

The kyu/dan where integrated after WW2, as Mugairyu Iaihyodo was originally part of the ZNKR/ZNIR founding (though that relationship has long since withered).

Regards,
r e n

David Toner
9th February 2004, 05:55
Thanks to all of you who replied to my question, I learned some things I was not aware of, which is always my goal.

Regards,

chizikunbo
14th February 2004, 20:59
Do you speack og Menkyo Kaidan?

chrismoses
16th February 2004, 05:53
Technically Kurita S. left Ki no Kenyukai to form Seikikai, and as far as I know there is no Menkyo Kaiden in the system. Since it is his own creation (or rather his own interpretation primarily of Nishio's Aiki Toho and O-Sensei's weapons) he himself is kind of the definition of Menkyo Kaiden, but I don't believe he has awarded this rank. The style is not taught in Japan so Parks and Kangas would presumably be the highest ranking students, and I don't think they ever graded beyond the chuden. Last I heard, Pierce only had Chuden-ni.

Brian Owens
16th February 2004, 10:31
Originally posted by chrismoses
Technically Kurita S. left Ki no Kenyukai to form Seikikai...
Yes, I left out a few steps. Didn't feel they were relevant to the topic. Aikikai, Ki Society, Shin Shin Toitsu Do, kenjutsu -- Kurita Sensei had a great deal of experience behind him when he founded Seiki Ryu. He was 6th Dan when he left Aikikai, yet even though he is no longer with them, they recognize him as 8th Dan now. I think that says something.

Originally posted by chrismoses
...and as far as I know there is no Menkyo Kaiden in the system. Since it is his own creation (or rather his own interpretation primarily of Nishio's Aiki Toho and O-Sensei's weapons) he himself is kind of the definition of Menkyo Kaiden, but I don't believe he has awarded this rank. The style is not taught in Japan so Parks and Kangas would presumably be the highest ranking students, and I don't think they ever graded beyond the chuden. Last I heard, Pierce only had Chuden-ni.
I've been gone for a while, so I don't know what rank Parks Sensei and Kangas Sensei are now.

But the rank structure has designations for all the positions I named, even though they have not yet all been awarded.

I was only Shoden-no-ni when I had to leave due to a change of job.

BTW, Seiki Kai (Aikido) is taught in Japan. The last I heard he had several dojo in the Saitama area, taught at a University, etc.

Seiki Ryu (kenjutsu/jodo) is not taught in Japan, AFAIK.

Lastly, I'm not familiar with "Nishio." Can you tell me (in a PM, maybe, since it's off topic) about him, or provide a link or source of more information.

Thanks.

chizikunbo
28th February 2004, 00:43
Originally posted by chrismoses
Technically Kurita S. left Ki no Kenyukai to form Seikikai, and as far as I know there is no Menkyo Kaiden in the system. Since it is his own creation (or rather his own interpretation primarily of Nishio's Aiki Toho and O-Sensei's weapons) he himself is kind of the definition of Menkyo Kaiden, but I don't believe he has awarded this rank. The style is not taught in Japan so Parks and Kangas would presumably be the highest ranking students, and I don't think they ever graded beyond the chuden. Last I heard, Pierce only had Chuden-ni.
Hmm, I see