PDA

View Full Version : Consequences of NOT using shinken?



socho
9th February 2004, 15:49
This is a spin off from the thread on "When Did You Begin Using a Shinken". Question is, what specific techniques in your style would/should require the extra attention to detail that comes from using a 'sharp'? Nukitsuke, of course, but what else?

Not talking about cutting. For example, in kiriage from MJER and ZNKR seitei, you turn over your saya, sword is edge down, for a rising diagonal draw cut. Coming from a background of using a live blade, I hated this. Sharp steel against soft wood leads to sharp steel against soft fingers. Very bad. Well, after x number of months, sensei explained that, despite appearances, the edge does not come in contact with the inside of the saya. You need to hold the blade so the mune stays in contact with the saya as you draw, constant upward pressure. Makes sense, but how often does that get addressed in an environement where everyone is using iaito?

Dave

Jack B
9th February 2004, 17:01
I have no statistics, but I realized that with an Iaito just by extrapolation. You have to consider what would happen with a shinken, just as you have to consider what would happen with an opponent.

The general danger areas in which you can have severe injury with a shinken:

Nukitsuke
Furikaburi
Chiburi
Noto

As far as specific, exceptionally self-dangerous waza in MJER:

Shihotou 1 & 2 - poke holes in your pecs or lats
Iwanami - cut off your finger tips turning the kissaki
Tsukekomi - slice off fingers on weird chiburi
Takiotoshi - pop through saya and gash palm (applies to lots)
Makko - cut your own face on nuki-furikaburi
Ukigumo, Oroshi, Iwanami - oshigiri
Kissakigaeshi (Tohou) - turning blade, close to hip

Also, generously endowed women will have a problem with the MJER noto, which generally has the ha upward. This has to be modified by certain well-blessed iaidoka.

Jack B
9th February 2004, 17:11
It might be fair to say that if you are not executing the same care and attention with a bokken or iaito as you would with a shinken, you may not be ready for one.

socho
9th February 2004, 19:04
if you do not use a shinken, you may never execute that level or care and attention with a bokken or iaito.

Jack B
9th February 2004, 21:18
True! Not everybody can suspend disbelief that thoroughly.

Somebody said, "Pain is the best teacher." Fear is a pretty good teacher too. However... I believe the consesus in our system is that using a shinken too early creates more bad habits than not using one too long.

Chidokan
9th February 2004, 21:26
you missed out my favourite...chiburui in seiza no bu: takes off own scalp.
How about nuki uchi: take off left arm?
After reading the note I just realised its only safe when you're cutting....but there again a big 'down the back' cut could poke you in the a**** or cut your foot if kneeling and being slightly off to one side..

A new ryu...MasoChistoRyu, self disembowelment a speciality.:D This thread now reminds me of 'The people's liberation front' in Life of Brian.:rolleyes:

TimothyKleinert
9th February 2004, 22:58
Originally posted by Jack B
I believe the consesus in our system is that using a shinken too early creates more bad habits than not using one too long.
Im curious to know what "bad habits" can ever be developed from using shinken? I can't think of a single one. You can get injured, but an injury is a different entity than a "bad habit."

[edit: Maybe you meant that any potential benefits from using shinken are outweighed by the risk of injury?]

Charles Mahan
10th February 2004, 02:09
Originally posted by TimothyKleinert
Im curious to know what "bad habits" can ever be developed from using shinken? I can't think of a single one. You can get injured, but an injury is a different entity than a "bad habit."

[edit: Maybe you meant that any potential benefits from using shinken are outweighed by the risk of injury?]

There are some very particular things that we do during nukitsuke and noto that are hard for new people to concentrate on doing properly if they're freaking out over whether or not they are going to cut something off. Our swords are a tad long, and that complicates things as well. Concentrating on not getting cut leads to overcompensation, which leads to bad technique. Combine that with high reps and you get bad habbits.

renfield_kuroda
10th February 2004, 05:40
The worst habit developed from using a shinken before you are ready is not properly taking care of it. It takes discipline and dedication to wipe it off and oil it up every time, to handle it correctly all the time, to break it down and give it a good cleaning regularly, to safety check the mekugi, tsuba, and itomaki every time, to keep the koiguchi and saya in working order, etc.

Regards,

r e n

Carlos Estrella
11th February 2004, 06:40
Personally, I started w/ a shinken (I'll debate whether a Paul Chen Shinto Katana is a shinken or not later <g>) and it DEFINITELY put the fear of God in me when I was learning the basics. The nice thing about it though, is that my instructors noticed my respect for ALL blades, as I ALWAYS assumed they were "live" even when (unfortunately) they assumed all students were using iaito.

This has been talked about before, but most everyone here who has used both iai blades and live blades knows that there is a difference in balance, weight and even technique. A very knowledgable sword and aiki instructor I know admitted to me after experiencing Guy Power Sensei's seminar at the Orlando Tai Kai that after learning the importance of hassuji, and after trying out my "Bob Elder Special" (some of you know what blade I am talking about <g>) that he realized he had ALOT to learn about his own art. There IS a REAL difference to me and so many others in using a shinken vs. iaito. So far (knock on wood) I haven't been cut and have learned alot because of the extra care I take.


FWIW,

Carlos

PS: Thanks Ren-san for the reminder about taking care of a blade... those embarrassing marks and stains from not getting to your blade fast enough after tameshigiri are embarassing!!!