PDA

View Full Version : Is there a term...



MarkF
17th October 2000, 09:12
I was asked for this by someone who emails me occasionally about these things, but I am somewhat stumped. Is there a term in newaza for taking the "mount" position in katami/shime, etc.? Kamiwaza seems to have one vote, but I am not so sure.

BTW: I really want to know. This isn't one of them mod tricks to get you guys talking, even though it has never worked before. He needs to know, and frankly, so do I. Oh, and I do not mean "tori.":shot:

Mark

Brian Griffin
17th October 2000, 15:59
"mount" = tateshihogatame
"back mount" = ushirogatame
"side mount" or "cross-side" = yokoshihogatame
"North/South" or "69" = kamishihogatame
"guard" = dojime
"open guard" = choza or ashigarami
"half guard" = ashigarami
"passing the guard" = hairigata
"snake move" = ebi
"scissor sweep" = hasamigaeshi or kanibasami
"elevator" = sumigaeshi
"knee-on-the-belly" = ukigatame
"Americana" = udegarami
"Kimura" = udegarami
"guillotine" = mae hadakajime
"mata lećo" = ushiro hadakajime
"cross choke" = jujijime
"triangle" = sankakujime or sankakugatame

.....etcetera

MarkF
17th October 2000, 17:08
Thanks, Brian,
That is more than generous. Some of the others I knew, but a Mount (dojime was all ready taken:)is what I need. I will pass on your post, if you don't mind.

Again, thanks,

Mark

Kit LeBlanc
18th October 2000, 07:10
Mark F.

He covered mount, tateshiho gatame.

I always thought of dojime as a variation on the gaurd.

BRIAN,

What are the characters for "choza."

And thanks, always wanted to know the Japanese for knee to belly!

Kit LeBlanc

Blues
18th October 2000, 07:37
"North/South" or "69" = kamishihogatame

I must remember this one... :)

MarkF
18th October 2000, 08:32
Hi, Kit,
What I meant about dojime, is that I knew that meant the guard position. In other words, I knew most, so I was admitting I didn't know what the term was for the mount.

Funny thing is, when this question was put to a couple of other BJJers, they ignored any Japanese terminology and said "it's called the straddle." There is a word ending with "h" here, but since I often fit that, I won't utter it.:D

Mark

MarkF
18th October 2000, 08:35
Originally posted by Blues

"North/South" or "69" = kamishihogatame

I must remember this one... :)


Yep! That is what it was called in private when I was a kid, so we did use "North/South" instead.

Mark

Neil Yamamoto
18th October 2000, 09:30
I seemed to recall "kami osae waza" but I was working off old memories prior to many impacts on my head. You guys have much better info then me.

MarkF
18th October 2000, 11:42
Hi, Neil,
That was my working term for it, as at first, I thought he wanted a single name for all ground/osae positions. It turned out that he was only missing the one for the "mount" stated by Brian above. I thought of kamiwaza, kamiosaewaza, etc.

Mark

Neil Yamamoto
18th October 2000, 17:23
Hi Mark,

This morning I looked in my handy dandy dictionary of martial arts and can't find any thing directly refering to the mount position in judo or jujutsu references. So I went to some of the web based stuff since this got my curiousity bug going for some reason. Nothing there either.

Does anyone know if there is an exact term for this position in the Japanese arts or should one be invented here on e-budo?

Brian Griffin
18th October 2000, 18:13
Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc

What are the characters for "choza."


choza = "long" + "sit"
refers to a posture in which you're on your butt with legs stretched out in front of you, as contrasted with _anza_ (sitting cross-legged) or _seiza_ (formal seated posture).




And thanks, always wanted to know the Japanese for knee to belly!



When my sensei began his Judo career, ukigatame was considered a valid pin!


Originally posted by Neil Yamamoto

... can't find any thing directly refering to the mount position in judo or jujutsu references.

...Does anyone know if there is an exact term for this position in the Japanese arts or should one be invented here on e-budo?



I suppose the "exact" term would have to be _kuzure_ tateshiho gatame :)

MarkF
19th October 2000, 08:49
Well I have seen aiki jujutsuka performing a variation on this. The difference being that they have just bagged twelve attackers and are holding them down with the one knee, being careful to keep a balance maintained.

The only resources I've seen for this pin was jujutsu of the koryu variety. I've never seen this in judo, at least I've not seen it be successful.

Mark

Neil Yamamoto
19th October 2000, 09:10
Mark, As I am an aiki bunny, do I hop up and down on the dozen attackers, or do I squat like a chicken to keep them under my butt? Does this depend on the time of year and how close it is to easter?

I never learned this technique, so I am very eager to learn!

Sorry late at night and I am in a wierd mood.

Joseph Svinth
19th October 2000, 10:16
Neil, wasn't there a thread on that BC? Too bad we lost it, I guess.

That said, a USAF manual I'm reading suggests that the knee is placed on the suspect's head. The arms are then used to strike the head or lock the arm, as required.


[Edited by Joseph Svinth on 10-19-2000 at 04:20 AM]

MarkF
19th October 2000, 10:46
Neil
I think it must have been the position of the "moon" or something, but all I saw was a picture of a guy on A daito-ryu website, with about twelve bodies (not dead, I don't think, as there was really no mention of the "aiki death touch") under one knee of tori (or uke as the case was at the time).

As it wasn't discussed how the guy "hopped" into place, I dont know, but he held his arms out "for balance (I guess)."

And Joe is right about there being a thread about this BC.

Gee, it was a "seminar photo" so I don't know about the wolves "howling at the moon" on that night. Besides, you do the hop better than most. I wish you'd come by more often. In fact, I wish you'd come by. If Toby is channeling through you, he is always welcome, too.

Do you remember "the hop" when getting into a meaner o soto gari?

Mark "Who steps onto the other side of the tracks once in a while" Feigenbaum, OSSSSSSSSSSSSu!

Seriously seeking suddeness. As Takeda S and Kano J were aqauintences, that pin may just have significant historical (or hysterical) precedence.

Neil Yamamoto
20th October 2000, 05:40
Hi Joe and Mark,

Yep I remember the BC thread vaguely. Some one made a comment on Mori Sensei of the Takumakai and that lead to some comments on Kondo Sensei and the web page or something along those lines.

Daito has a number of multiple personalities -- err multiple person pins in the art. I have yet to meet someone I really feel can pull off a pin against more then 2 people at once, at least from what I have seen and felt.

As for pinning the suspects head down with a knee, that brings a tear to my eye and a warmth to my heart. Just like I learned from dear old Bernie Lau, or was that my mom who taught me that?

Mark, The judo I did was in college when everyone was experimenting and I never inhaled. But I really loved to slam some of the judo guys with joint locks, especially during newaza when they weren't expecting it.

Interestingly, the principles of movement in Osoto are very similar to some aiki arts. You, Aaron Fields, Joe and I could drink some beers and compare notes. After all, aiki and judo are ugly cousins to each other.

Serious thread drift here.

MarkF
20th October 2000, 08:28
Hi Neil,
Well, see, you didn't play by the rules. Judo has a bunch of rules, but I get the point. I used to do that with stand up 'te artists and while I took a couple to get inside, but ultimately I would. It is fun when interrelating like that.:toast:

There are many variants of O soto, such as o soto gake, but that is being tacky to even mention it. The hop is literal, and when I competed, it wasn't out of the question to hop on one foot to get inside to bang uke's chest with yours as you sweep the leg. Masahiko Kimura's o soto was like that. Most of those guys had centers which would blast the opponent out of their tabi even knowing he was going to do that particular throw and there wasn't a darn thing you could do about it.

More thread drift. Anyone wishing to begin a new thread is more than welcome.:)

Mark