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Rick Kowarick
11th February 2004, 13:25
Does anyone know how I can find out if Oba "Ichio" Kazuo realy had a Menkyo Kainden from Shinto Ryu (Shinto Muso Ryu) Ken Jutsu / Batto Jutsu. He founded the Takeda Ryu Bujutsu in 1948 and thought Ken Jutsu and Batto Jutsu among other arts. I have already verified his Menkyo Kaiden from Kukishin Ryu. I am doing some research on him and trying to find the origin of the wasa he thought.

Thanks,

Brian Owens
11th February 2004, 14:15
I believe Shinto Ryu and Shinto Muso Ryu are two different arts.

I'll see what I can find in my library, though.

Should have an answer in a few hours if no one else posts first.

chrismoses
11th February 2004, 15:41
Unfortunately just about everybody seems to have called their style Shinto Ryu. Very popular name! Generally Shinto Muso Ryu is associated with the Jo and is not referred to as Shinto Ryu. The Shinto Ryu I study is more technically called Shinto Sho-bu Ryu Iai-Battojutsu, but generally we just refer to it as Shinto-Ryu. We use the Dan/ Kyu grading system although our Dan grades are written as licenses. I doubt that we're the school that you're looking for however. Generally when people refer to the "Shinto Ryu" they mean Katori Shinto Ryu. Hopefully some of that was slightly helpful...

Rick Kowarick
11th February 2004, 17:04
According to the Shinto Muso Ryu website:


Also included in the curriculum of the Shinto Muso-ryu jo are twelve techniques of swordsmanship called Shinto-ryu kenjutsu. The first eight techniques are long sword versus long sword, followed by four techniques that are long sword versus short sword.
http://shinto-muso-ryu.org/

I guess that Oba sensei trained in this ryu since the Takeda Ryu was founded in Fukuoka, Kyushu. Shindo Muso Ryu was the official Bujutsu Ryu of the Kuroda Daimyo. Oba claimed his teacher was Nakamura Okichi, who in turn was a student of Takeda Tadakatsu.

The Takeda family were inderect retainers to the Kuroda Daimyo and resided in the Ooto estate. The Ooto Family were direct retainers of the Kuroda. Aparently the Takeda were responsible for overseing the Bujutsu hall of the Ooto's. I do not know if they were the sensei, but it would probably be safe to say that they had some contact with Shinto Muso ryu Bujutsu.

Any ideas?

George Kohler
11th February 2004, 17:17
Originally posted by Rick Kowarick
I have already verified his Menkyo Kaiden from Kukishin Ryu.

Rick,

How did you verify that Oba Ichio received Menkyo Kaiden? I do know that he learned this school from Kiba Koshiro, but didn't know he received MK from him. BTW, Oba taught the Kuji no kata and Kutsu no kata (mostly associated with the Shobukyoku) to Sato Kinbei sensei.

Rick Kowarick
11th February 2004, 18:45
How did you verify that Oba Ichio received Menkyo Kaiden? I do know that he learned this school from Kiba Koshiro, but didn't know he received MK from him.

George,

Mayebe my sources are not bullet proof, as you know it is hard to find the truth about ryu's of Japan. Last time I was in Japan, my sensei showed me a Bujutsu encyclopedea that had the leneage of many ryu. Takeda Ryu was in there as well. I know that the info found in some of the Encyclopedea is not 100% reliable, if it was these forums would not be half as interesting.

In the brief explanation of the history of the Takeda Ryu it mentions that Oba had a MK in Kukishin Ryu, Hoen Ryu and Shinto Ryu. I looked up the geneology chart of Kukishin Ryu and found Oba under Kiba Koshiro. I contacted someone from Kukishin Ryu (can't remember his name but will look it) who is working on the history of the Ryu, if I recall correctly he mentioned to me that Oba received the MK (again I will look it up to make sure this statement is correct). He did mention that Oba helped Kiba put together the Kuji and Kutsu no Kata. Again, its been a couple of years since I contacted him and I will get up to date since this info is in my other laptop.

Tim Atkinson
11th February 2004, 21:03
George,

The kenjutsu kata taught within Shinto Muso Ryu Jojutsu are sometimes refered to as Kasumi Shinto Ryu.

George Kohler
11th February 2004, 23:03
Originally posted by Tim Atkinson
George,

The kenjutsu kata taught within Shinto Muso Ryu Jojutsu are sometimes refered to as Kasumi Shinto Ryu.

Hi Tim,

I think you have the wrong person. I did not inquire about Shinto Muso-ryu/Kasumi Shinto-ryu.

Tim Atkinson
11th February 2004, 23:08
George,

Sorry I meant Rick, didn't read far enough to see who started the post back before I posted.

gmlc123
12th February 2004, 00:29
Rick

Something seems a little odd... there's no such thing as a Menkyo Kaiden for Shinto Ryu Kenjutsu AKA Kasumi Shinto Ryu AKA SMR Kenjutsu.

A Menkyo Kaiden is a full transmission title and in the case of SMR it's not given out just for the assimilated ryu-ha within SMR. But only for the whole Kaiden.

Therefore, I suspect if it were the case that Oba Kazuo Sensei really had a Menkyo Kaiden then why would he selectively teach only the Kenjutsu/Battojutsu component, and incorporate it into his own Ryu. What about the Jo waza, Kusarigama, Jutte/Tessen, Tanjo etc.... is that in Takeda Ryu Bujutsu? if not seems very unlikely to me.

I have no doubt he trained in SMR as you suggest, just that it would have been improper if he were a Menkyo Kaiden to incorporate it into his own Ryu. Why would he need too? and why only the Kenjutsu and not everything else?

It's not uncommon for certain individuals to obtain Menkyo Kaiden in more than one Ryu. Normally those who do so that aren't Meiyo would never cross-contaminate two separate Ryu into a new one which they claim to have founded. But then again, there's a hell of a lot of that outside of Japan, and presumably inside too.

My sceptical 2 cents worth.
Greg


Originally posted by Rick Kowarick
Does anyone know how I can find out if Oba "Ichio" Kazuo realy had a Menkyo Kainden from Shinto Ryu (Shinto Muso Ryu) Ken Jutsu / Batto Jutsu. He founded the Takeda Ryu Bujutsu in 1948 and thought Ken Jutsu and Batto Jutsu among other arts. I have already verified his Menkyo Kaiden from Kukishin Ryu. I am doing some research on him and trying to find the origin of the wasa he thought.

Thanks,

Rick Kowarick
12th February 2004, 01:46
QUOTE]Therefore, I suspect if it were the case that Oba Kazuo Sensei really had a Menkyo Kaiden then why would he selectively teach only the Kenjutsu/Battojutsu component, and incorporate it into his own Ryu. What about the Jo waza, Kusarigama, Jutte/Tessen, Tanjo etc.... is that in Takeda Ryu Bujutsu? if not seems very unlikely to me.[/QUOTE]

Greg,

You have a good point, and all this is helping me understand better the little I know. Sorry, I should have painted the full picture from the begining.

The story goes as follows:

Takeda Tadakatsu, a direct decendent of Takeda Nobutora (Shingen's father), was was a inderect retainer of the Kuroda Daimyo. He resided at the Ooto estate (Fukuoka Castle) who were direct retainers of the Kuroda. Aparently the Takeda ran the Ooto dojo until the Meiji Restoration. In 1881, Tadakatsu, sponcered by the Genyosha (ultra right wing secrete society which originated in Fukuoka), started to teach its members Koryu Bujutsu. The arts probably were: Ju Jutsu, Jo Jutsu, Tessen Jutsu. Jo and Tessen most probably had their roots from Muso Shinto Ryu.


In 1886, after the death of Tadakatsu, Nakamura Yoshitoshi (son of Ooto Atsurin) assumes the position as head Sensei of the Genyosha dojo. Nakamura eventually changes his name to Nakamura Aikisai Okichi. He was the person who probably renamed Takeda's Ju Jutsu to Aiki no Jutsu. Some of Nakamura's students were: Uchida Ryohei, Miyagawa Ikkan, Nakano Shogo, Matsunaga Setsu, Takeda ???, Oba Ichio and his brother, and a few others I have not been able to translate from japanese yet. These are all Kuroda samurai or decendets of Kuroda samurai. The dojo arts under Nakamura Sensei were: Aiki no Justu, Ju Jutsu, Jo Jutsu and Tessen Jutsu (source Bujutsu Encyclopeadea).

Nakamura Okichi died in 1935 and Oba was appointed by Toyama Mitsuru(sponcer of the dojo and the Genyosha and Kokuryukai ultra right wing secrete societies in fukuoka). Oba was active with the Genyosha and Kokuryukai until the end of WWII. With Uchida's and Toyama's death and the dismantling of the secret societies by coalition forces, Oba opened the dojo to general public and called it Takeda Ryu.

I think that the Takeda Ryu system Oba put together in 1948 is a mix of Shindo Muso Ryu, Kukishin Ryu, a Ju Jitsu system called Hoen Ryu (aparently he had Menkyo Kaiden on all three of these Ryu).

When Nakamura Hisashi (current Soke of Takeda Ryu Bujutsu & founder of Takeda Ryu Nakamura Ha Budo)started to study with Oba sensei in 1949. The Yamagura Dojo had been openned to general public for one year, and the arts thought by Oba sensei where: Aiki no Jutsu, Ju Kenpo Jutsu, Ken Jutsu, Batto Jutsu, Jo Jutsu, Shuggi Jutsu (short stick), and Shuriken Jutsu. Oba Sensei died in 1959, and the appointed successor Moritomo Sensei declined the position and appointed Nakamura Hisashi as the next Soke.

We still practice the Bujutsu taught by Oba Sensei the last week of every month. The other 3 weeks of the month we train Nakamura Ha, a a modern variation of the Oba's Koryu. If the Ryu is legit or not does not matter to me, the wasa are great and effective. I am just trying to discover the origin of the wasa, and discovering our roots.

Sorry for the long repply!
:) And I shaved it down quite a bit.

gmlc123
12th February 2004, 02:41
Hi Rick

Interesting.. the only tie in to SMR, I can see, in terms of the names you mentioned is Uchida Ryohei Sensei, whom was a student of Shiraishi Hanjiro Shigeaki.

Uchida Ryohei was also the founder of Uchida ryu Tanjojutsu. Quick question.. your "Shuggi Jutsu (short stick)" how long is it, how many kata are there? perhaps the Menkyo Kaiden is for Uchida Ryu directly from Uchida Sensei.

Also I'd seek from your lineal head a copy of the Menkyo Kaiden certificate, to see whom it was issued by.

I think in terms of the integration of your Kenjutsu (and maybe Jo or Tanjo), if it is SMR based.. it has little to do with any secret society or Takeda Tadakatsu being a retainer of the Kuroda Daimyo IMHO. More likely to be of a later date ie. under Uchida Sensei if it is SMR influenced.

Also keep in mind, that many Ryu had Bojutsu techniques, that latter were adapted by the particular ryu into separate jo techniques. These have little to do with SMR though.

I refer to Wayne Muromoto's article http://www.koryubooks.com/library/wmuromoto1.html and quote.



To be sure, there were wooden staff arts before Gonnosuke's time. The Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu had bojutsu methods using the rokushaku bo (six-foot staff), as did the Sekiguchi-ryu, Bokuden-ryu and Takeuchi-ryu (or, as it is alternatively called, Take-no-uchi-ryu).

Sorry, if I've expanded this beyond your initial Shinto Ryu Kenjutsu only question... and to all the sword practitioners whom are ready to boot us to the Jo forum :)

Hope this helps.
Greg

Rick Kowarick
12th February 2004, 18:09
Sorry, if I've expanded this beyond your initial Shinto Ryu Kenjutsu only question... and to all the sword practitioners whom are ready to boot us to the Jo forum

Greg,

I'll start a thread in the Jo Forum under Takeda Ryu (Uchida Ryu Tanjo and Kukishin Ryu Hanbo)

See ya there,