Kingfisher Jo

[SMJodo]

I came across a web site for a small company in Vermont that makes their own wooden weapons including the Jo. Has anyone ever used any of their products?

I noticed that they make their products out of hickory versus the traditional Japanese White Oak. Does anyone know if there would be a performance issues with using hickory?

Also, they kind of frown on sanding to make their products. I know I am forced to sand my Jo every so often to remove rough spots. I assume that is true of most of us?

Kingfisher Woodworks (http://www.kingfisherwoodworks.com/)

[Mekugi]

Little spendy, they are.

[SMJodo]

I though so too. They seem to be about $20 high on a typical Jo. I was thinking of treating myself when I passed my next test. Might make a nice gift too.

[Gene McGloin]

Hi,

If you haven't already done so, you ought to e-mail Kingfisher and ask what the most common problems have been with the weapon you're looking to purchase. I don't usually rely on a manufacturer's statements about potential, or even common, deficiencies with their products, but my dealings with Kingfisher have proved to me that they are different. Simply put my past dealings with Kingfisher have been a pleasure! I know Brad to be a skilled craftsman, reliable and very informative as to his materials and manufacturing processes. In the past, he was always very forthcoming with me with regard to problems associated with the lamination processes he used at that time.

Sorry for such a lenghty reply that isn't exactly on point!

Best Regards,

Gene McGloin

[SMJodo]

Thanks Gene. I sent him an email today, but I didn't really get into potential "probelms" because I didn't want to seem insulting from the get-go.

I wonder if you could use maple or some other hard wood like that used in baseball bats? Probably a weight issue though. Just wondering.

[R A Sosnowski]

I had a lot of dealings with Brad in the past, always cordial. I'd recommend him unconditionally.

Hickory is the domestic hardwood that has the closest properties to Japanese White Oak (which is not an oak at all) which is why it is used in North America rather than importing wood from Japan.

[SMJodo]

Ray,

I've never heard this before. If White Oak isn't really Oak - what is it?

Have you ever used Hickory?

[Nathan Scott]

Though this post isn't specifically about Jo, I thought I'd let ya'll know that Brad makes very high quality products. A few of us use his laminated rosewood bokken, and I've used these to destroy standard bokken of all types. In fact, to demonstrate the strength of these (everyone thinks these are fragile for some reason), I used one of these bokken to break (perhaps explode is a better word) a standard rokushakubo. No damage to the bokken.

There was a great article on Kingfisher a long time ago in JAMA. I'm glad to see them on the net FINALLY.

Generally, I lean towards simple wooden weapons, but I have to admit that using a Kingfisher (aka: clobberwood) bokken is pretty enjoyable.

Don't know about the jo though.

Regards,

[SMJodo]

Thanks Nathan. I use pretty standard "white oak" Jo and Bokken and have never had a probelm with either. It's kind of incredible really, considering the punishment that they receive. I actually had the pleasure of "exploding" a bokken with my Jo during striking practice. Even though I was later admonished for "less than perfect" technique, Sensei admitted that my power was good. I wound up buying my partner a new bokken as a result. Still got a rush though (worth it in my eyes). Ha.

[Gene McGloin]

Hi,

I've had Kingfisher laminate jo for about seven years now and am very happy with it. It is definitely heavier than any other jo I've owned and usually use it for solo kata practice, only.

Best Regards,

Gene McGloin

[R A Sosnowski]

Originally posted by SMJodo
Ray,

I've never heard this before. If White Oak isn't really Oak - what is it?

Have you ever used Hickory?

The Japanese name escapes me.

I have used Hickory and Ash. They both handle quite well.

[Mekugi]

Shiro kashi. It's technical name is Quercus aliena/ (Latin) Fagaceae (in the "beech" family); commonly called "oriental white oak" by gardeners. Japan has it's own variety of this, however, a pure specimen is becoming harder to find. A similar variety is found growing in China as well, where a large amount of Japanese lumber is coming from nowadays.

This is an oak tree, fellas - all true oaks are part of the beechwood family, so don't be fooled.

-Russ

PS...I have an extremely good source for this kind of information, I am not this smart in reality.


Originally posted by R A Sosnowski
The Japanese name escapes me.

I have used Hickory and Ash. They both handle quite well.

[SMJodo]

Thanks Russ -

I'll give you another chance to impress us:

What's you opinion on using Hickory vs. Japanese White Oak?


:D

[gmlc123]

Originally posted by Mekugi
Shiro kashi. It's technical name is Quercus aliena/ (Latin) Fagaceae (in the "beech" family); commonly called "oriental white oak" by gardeners. Japan has it's own variety of this, however, a pure specimen is becoming harder to find.

To expand a little more as to why. Normally, Shiro kashi grows naturally higher up on mountains than most trees, above or around the snow-line as I understand.. and as such they grew very slowly, with a higher density and water content than most other woods.

Of course, nowadays any Shiro kashi grown for commercial purposes is grown lower down.. where it's warmer and grows more quickly.

That's why if you know someone with an original SMR Shiro kashi Jo you straight away notice it's so much heavier than any Shiro kashi Jo you can buy now. As Russ, indicated Chinese substitution is also another big issue.

In Australia we tend to go for Spotted Gum or Iron Bark, these are very nice woods and similar to the older Shiro kashi.

IMHO Hickory is OK for a bokuto, but will too easily be dented. It won't break, but get's pitted more easily. Having said that, I'm sure there's some differences between the Hickory we have here and that is endemic to the USA

[Mekugi]

In the end it comes down to preference. I would love to have a hickory jo, but the prices are usually too high for the type of craftsmanship I am looking for.

From my experience White Oak tends to take the bumps and dents easier without splintering and threading.

Hickory absorbs an equal amount of shock, yet it tends to splinter and "thread" easier. It's a cheaper wood, but working with it seems to be a major pain and it drives the price up a great deal (at least for me).

In the end, I think the combination of a proper drying, lumber selection and craftsmanship coupled with price that really makes a difference.

For example:
My sensei just recieved an Australian Red Gum jo which TOTALLY blows the top off anything I have seen in White Oak, all around. The downside of this is that the batch that came to Japan was not dried/treated properly and warped in transport. These would have warped later on down the line for the user, if they were shipped quickly. A real pity as the wood was/is simply gorgeous. So, only a few made it to purchase, leaving me out of it :(.

Overall, it's a matter of preference when it comes to those woods, IMHO:

WOODWEB (http://www.woodweb.com/index.html)

Application chart (http://www.timberandmore.com/download/pdf/wood_guide.pdf)

Timber and More resource site (http://www.timberandmore.com)



Originally posted by SMJodo
Thanks Russ -

I'll give you another chance to impress us:

What's you opinion on using Hickory vs. Japanese White Oak?


:D

[Daniel Lee]

Originally posted by gmlc123
In Australia we tend to go for Spotted Gum or Iron Bark, these are very nice woods and similar to the older Shiro kashi.
Hi Greg,

Do you have any carpenters/craftsmen in Australia you can recommend that produce wooden training weapons? Iron Bark is a great wood to work with, and I'd like to have some weapons made in it some time. :)

[gmlc123]

Hi Daniel

Check out this URL.
http://www.angelfire.com/extreme2/pagan/jwran.htm

There's another guy here in Brisbane that produces Spotted Gum bokuto and Jo.. but he doesn't have a website. If you like I can chase down his details, send me a PM if you're interested.

Cheers
Greg


Originally posted by Daniel Lee
Hi Greg,

Do you have any carpenters/craftsmen in Australia you can recommend that produce wooden training weapons? Iron Bark is a great wood to work with, and I'd like to have some weapons made in it some time. :)

[Bill Gallant]

Just to make a point or two,
I've had the best luck with Kim Taylor at
http://www.sdksupplies.com
He'll get you a great Jo at a good price. Mine is Hickory, had it for close to six years still looks, and feels great. He'll make a jo out of almost any wood you want, just ask.
If you choose not to use him I think his site (or a link on it), has lots of info on woods, if you're wondering about differant types.
take care,
Bill Gallant

[ulvulv]

try also www.bestkneepads.com
they make weapons in different exotic kind of woods. And sell very good kneepads.

[SMJodo]

Thanks for all the great information guys - I love this forum.

[Tony Peters]

another thing about "Japanese white oak" it that it's a Live oak...if you can find liveoak in the USA it's properties are very similar to Shiro Kashi

[kokumo]

For better or for worse, it is my experience over the past four years (which makes a change from my previous experience) that every japanese white oak polearm I have acquired (and I'm talking about at least three separate suppliers) has become extremely warped within one year or less.

All of these weapons have been appropriately oiled (once a day for a week, once a week for a month, once a month for a year), but no matter.

Admittedly, my weapons are often taken outdoors in a wide range of temperature and weather conditions and may be stressed by fast transitions between outdoor cold and indoor heat in the winter, but still, this is something I've only observed recently.

And I do have a couple of older jo that are still true or very close.

My guess is that there has been a significant degradation of the supply of white oak, and most of what is being produced now is (as another poster suggested) grown faster, cut younger, dried faster, and more likely to include differential grain in a single jo.

Made in Japan is all very well and good from an emotional point of view, but I have no confidence in the quality control of any of the major Japanese manufacturers of jo or their US purveyors at this point, at least as far as concerns anything that isn't high end mass production or custom work.

On the other hand, my dealings with Brad have all been positive, I know he cares about and selects his wood, I know that it is sustainably harvested and properly cured, and I know that if there's an issue (not that I've ever had one), there's a real person willing to stand behind the work.

Personally, I don't like the feeling of the laminates, so I would stick with the hickory.

Anything else I might say is just hearsay.

Your mileage may very,

Fred Little

[SMJodo]

Thanks Fred - just ordered mine yesterday. I spoke to Brad on the phone and he was very helpful. Looking forward to seeing his work first hand.

I've been getting into collecting some differnt Jos lately. Something about the natural simplicity of them appeals to me. Some of the links in this thread have some wonderful looking stuff. I'm sure that I pick up a piece or two of theirs also.

On the topic of white oak, I've been practicing with the same white oak Jo for over 3 years and it has warped a little. I don't think it had anything to do with the weather, although mine has "swelled" a few times when I left it outside by mistake. Given the amount of punishment it takes, plus the weather, I think it held up pretty well. I got mine directly from my Sensei. I know it was made in Japan, but I have no idea where he gets them from.

Never worked with a laminate Jo, but I think the some of the ironwood or spotted gum types would be cool.

[jest]

Mekugi: thanks for the scientific name of shiro kashi, i've been wondering about it for a while.
as for the hickory vs. japanese white oak debate; top grade hickory is just about the toughest wood out there.
going by wood mechanics, a jo or bokken made from tool grade hickory should be able to destroy anything in its weight class, and most denser woods besides.
hard to find good wood though.

[Nathan Scott]

Mr. Schijndel,

In regards to hickory for impact weapons, I have a hand-made kata naginata made from hickory that is to date holding up pretty well (probably American hickory, FWIW). But I have destruction-tested a hickory bokken, and believe that they seem to last longer than oak because of the longer fibers (I think someone else mentioned this) and increased amount of water. But, they do begin to dent/fail, and are hard to sand smooth again once they do. They seem to dent easier than oak, but tend to compress rather than splinter.

It may depend on the type of hickory though - I have limited experience with it.

Regards,

[jest]

Mr. Scott,
Please call me Joost :)
I'm speaking from a forestry student's point of view, as my experience in any form of organised, hard contact with wooden weapons is extremely limited. I'm simply going by what I've read, numberswise, about the mechanical properties of the two woods.
The real world rarely sticks to the figures though...
If I recall correctly, almost all oak tends to lose a lot of its strength after a number of years, can anyone substantiate this?