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Rick Kowarick
12th February 2004, 19:43
This thread is a continuation from a thread that started in the Sword Arts Forum (Shinto Ryu - Ken Jutsu / Batto Jutsu).


Uchida Ryohei was also the founder of Uchida ryu Tanjojutsu. Quick question.. your "Shuggi Jutsu (short stick)" how long is it, how many kata are there? perhaps the Menkyo Kaiden is for Uchida Ryu directly from Uchida Sensei.

Greg, Our Shuggi are about 30 cm long. We have kata using one and two Shuggi. One of my theories is that our Shuggi Jutsu could probably be an off shute of Ikkaku Ryu Tessen Jutsu, Isshin Ryu Kusarigama Jutsu and Kukishin Ryu Tambo.

Our Jo are about 90 cm to 1 meter. Jo Jutsu could probably be a Hybread of Uchida Ryu Tanjo and Kukishin Ryu Hambo. Though our current Soke only teaches the Tanjo, I have pictures of MSR Jo length o the weapons rack behind Oba Sensei while he was demonstrating Aiki no Jutsu wasa.

Since Oba Ichio was a student of Kiba Koshiro of Kukishin Ryu and probably was a student of Uchida Ryohei, there are indications that these two schools are the roots of our Jo Jutsu, Shuggi Jutsu and Jodo.

George Kohler
12th February 2004, 20:39
I think Oba taught Sato Kinbei sensei the Kuji and Kutsu no kata using the Jo. The Shobukyoku Kukishin-ryu group (1920's-1940's) did the same kata with the Rokushaku Bo.

gmlc123
12th February 2004, 22:11
Hi Rick

I'm interested in knowing more about your Shuggi.. as I have seen some film of what I referred to Ni Tessen to try to describe it. AFAIK, it's not part of the SMR kaiden, and I'm trying to find out more about it... but no-one seems to really know, I suspect.

Does your Shuggi (one in each hand) utilise jujidome quite often?

The more I read your info the more likely I feel it's Uchida Ryu that Oba Sensei got his Menkyo Kaiden in ie. length of Jo and that your lineal head only teaches Tanjo. I couldn't say without seeing it whether it is a hybrid, and then again I'm unsure whether Kukishin Hanbo is also Uchida Ryu based. Russ, any ideas or input?

In an aiki jutsu dojo, it's not surprising that a Jo would be on the wall or even under the Kamiza. And as George mentioned, there is the possibility that the Bojutsu techniques were adapted to this end.

I wouldn't read to much into the picture though.

On a side note, from the research you have done so far. Do you know anything about the numbers of bushi in the Kuroda han around 1600s or early 1700s. Seen anything that refers to the role of the Ashigaru in the Kuroda han?

Cheers
Greg


Originally posted by Rick Kowarick
Greg, Our Shuggi are about 30 cm long. We have kata using one and two Shuggi. One of my theories is that our Shuggi Jutsu could probably be an off shute of Ikkaku Ryu Tessen Jutsu, Isshin Ryu Kusarigama Jutsu and Kukishin Ryu Tambo.

Our Jo are about 90 cm to 1 meter. Jo Jutsu could probably be a Hybread of Uchida Ryu Tanjo and Kukishin Ryu Hambo. Though our current Soke only teaches the Tanjo, I have pictures of MSR Jo length o the weapons rack behind Oba Sensei while he was demonstrating Aiki no Jutsu wasa.

Rick Kowarick
13th February 2004, 02:04
Does your Shuggi (one in each hand) utilise jujidome quite often?

Greg,
We use the Jujidome uke with the shuggi against the ken for Shomen, Migimen and Hidarimen atacks. All our kata for Shuggi Justu is either the defend against the sword and Tori (grabs).

Our kamae for the jo are:
Mae Ichimonji (Kukishin Ryu uses Hira Ichimonji)
Yoko Ichimonji (same as KR)
Tenchi (same as KR)
Tenchi Jin (same as KR)
Gyaku Tenchi
Gyaku Tenchi Jin
Chudan (same as KR)
Jodan (same as KR)
Gedan (same as KR)
Bachi Gaeshi In no Kamae
Bachi Gaeshi Yo no Kamae

Any similarities with Uchida Ryu?

I have not learned all the katas and do not know exactly how many there are. I will ask my sensei. Though there are many similar ones to the ones in this site: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Pagoda/8187/Tanjo.htm

I think Oba brought in Kukishin Ryu hambo wasa into the original Uchida Ryu that Nakamura Okichi taught.

gmlc123
13th February 2004, 03:01
Rick

Re: Shuggi. Is there any URL you can point me to that shows your Shuggi jutsu waza? Has your Sensei ever expressed his subjective opinions about it's origins? if there's nothing in print.. then I'll drop you a PM and organise to send you a series of frame grabs for comparison to your Shuggi waza. I'd like to talk to you more about it.

Re: Tanjo.. it's impossible to say from the names alone. But you're probably in a better position to make a comparison than I, myself having not seen your Kata.

Let's wait to see what Russ has to say, if anything, about KR Hanbo origins and whether there's some factual tie in between Uchida Ryu and Kukishin Ryu.

Cheers
Greg

Rick Kowarick
14th February 2004, 02:11
Greg,

I will try digitalize some videos of shuggi demonstrations and send them to you via PM.

There is a good book with Kukishin Ryu Hambo and Tanjo tecniques: "Stick Fighting - Techniques of Self Defense" by Masaaki Hatsumi. Some of the hambo wasa is almost identical to our Jo wasa.

Rick Kowarick
14th February 2004, 02:23
Russ, is this the mon for Kukishin Ryu??

I scanned it from the Kukishin Ryu Bujutsu (Bojutsu, Hanbojutsu, Tachiai) Book by Kiba Koshiro.

There are increadible similarities: the Chrysanthemum with the thre commas for KR and the chrysanthemum with the sun and moon (ying & yang) for the TR.

gmlc123
14th February 2004, 03:12
Rick

Chrysanthemums are very common in a mon. Hopefully, Russ will explain more.

Greg


Originally posted by Rick Kowarick
There are increadible similarities: the Chrysanthemum

Rick Kowarick
14th February 2004, 03:29
Greg,

Take a look at this site:
http://www.takedaryu.com/home/english/homenglishindex.htm
There are some shuggi jutsu pictures there under the Disciplines option. Take a look at their jo and shuggi pictures, if you want to have an idea of the size of the weapons. Their are the representatives in Europe. Their organization is...well, a long story not worth writing about. But at least you can see the shuggi.

gmlc123
14th February 2004, 04:09
Rick

Thanks... we're getting there. What is simply referred to a Jo, under Jodo, on the site, is really what we call Tanjo.

So part of the issue is terminology being used. For us, in SMR, the Jo is 4ft long vs. the Tanjo being 3ft.

The Shuggi/Shugi/Tanbo looks like the weapon I have in the film clip for sure... and so far I suspect, my opinion only, that like Tanjo its origins are from Uchida Ryu.

Interestingly, the Uchida Ryu Tanjo was incorporated into SMR, unchanged, but not the Tanbo/Shuggi. Although, the last headmaster of SMR, Shimizu Takaji Sensei obviously learnt and trained in it, presumably directly from Uchida Ryohei Sensei, one of his Sempai.

Greg

Rick Kowarick
14th February 2004, 21:46
Greg,
There is another Takeda Ryu site that has some interesting pictures, and a 3:33 min video of some of the wasa. Unfortunatly there are no Shuggi wasa, but there is Jo and one bo. There is also Iai, Aiki, Ju Jutsu and Kenpo.

http://www.takedaryu.at