PDA

View Full Version : Pinan in Goju?



RobertW
16th February 2004, 01:21
Hello all, I will post this here too...

I have a student who trained in Goju for a number of years. He is adamant that Pinan should be part of Goju.
I know that it is not however what system would say Pinan is part of Goju? Is it a Japanese system?
The pinan he did looked like Shotokan too. Lots of deep Kokutsu dachi and so forth..

Nyuck3X
16th February 2004, 20:36
As you may know Robert, Pinan were created by Itosu so therefore
belongs to the Shorin-ryu lineage. I spent a few years in Goju
and from what I gathered, they didn't do it. In fact, my instructor
used to mistakenly call it Pinion. Higoshionna/Miyagi lineage
shows no cross over into Shuri-te. Although come to think of it, my
instructor did teach a version of Bassai. With the exception of
Fukyugata ni, (in Matsubayashi) there is no cross over of Goju kata
into the main Shorin branches. As far as I know, Shito-ryu does both.

The Shotokan-esque stance could be a clue to it's being Shito-ryu
derived. Just a shot in the dark.

Peace.

Amended @ 11:46
Read the posts under Karate forum.
Basically I agree with Rob Sensei

Later...

Daniel Kogan
19th February 2004, 21:16
I would agree that Pinan are strictly Shorin, I would disagree with the statement made that there is no cross over in Kata between Shorin and Goju. Yes, I would accept that the main Shorin branches don't train Goju kata, but the reverse isn't exactly true. In fact Miyagi sensei trained and taught Naihanchi, there are still a few Goju dojo on Okinawa that train it. And to be perfectly fair, Sanchin essentially a "sister form " to Naihanchi is trained in some (albeit few) Shorin dojo and Sanchin Tenshin if not the kata itself is trained in many of the old school Shorin dojo.

Food for thought,

Rob, just curious what lineage of Shorin and Kobudo you train in?

Rob Alvelais
19th February 2004, 21:32
Originally posted by Daniel Kogan

Rob, just curious what lineage of Shorin and Kobudo you train in?

Shito Ryu and Yamane Ryu. In my youth, I hung out a lot with Kobayashi practitioners, and I've maintained the friendships, so I've a bit of familiarity with that branch of Shorin Ryu. Clearly no expert. Also, my bo instr. is a fantastic Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu practitioner. I've picked up a lot from him. Again, I'm no expert on Matsubayashi, by any measure, but I've pretty familiar with it.

Rob

Iron Chef
20th February 2004, 18:45
Originally posted by Daniel Kogan
....In fact Miyagi sensei trained and taught Naihanchi, there are still a few Goju dojo on Okinawa that train it. And to be perfectly fair, Sanchin essentially a "sister form " to Naihanchi is trained in some (albeit few) Shorin dojo and Sanchin Tenshin if not the kata itself is trained in many of the old school Shorin dojo.
..

What is Sanchin Tenshin? I am not familiar with that kata. Thank you.

Daniel Kogan
22nd February 2004, 08:13
Tenshin is "body displacement" often called Taisabaki in mainland Japan, although Taisabaki is usually more about turning whereas in Okinawa, Tenshin is more about walking or "moving your body" from one location to another.

Sanchin Tenshin is essentially the walking pattern and the body mechanics of Sanchin Kata , although without the striking or blocking techniques.

Old Dragon
22nd February 2004, 08:25
I know people who study old 'TE" that refer to this as Sanchin walking, it consists of no up and down movement. All the body mechanics of Sanchin that we are all aware of and its purpose is speed and not telagraphing.

Is this what you are refering to Daniel?

The man who showed me this studies only Sanchin and nihanchi, his teacher an okinawan, taught him sanchin for 7 years before showing him Nihanchi. He has been working on "Internal Power" and these two kata for 40 years.

Mike O'leary

Daniel Kogan
23rd February 2004, 06:55
That is precisely the exercise I am describing. I am surprised you made they association to Ti so quickly, but yes this is what old Ti practitioners do (old style Ti not old practitioners, but I think you knew that¡¦s what I meant ƒº )

This training is part and parcel of Naihanchi, so much so that Sanchin dachi in many Shorin dojo on Okinawa is call ¡§Ippon Naihanchi dachi¡¨ these exercises go back long before Goju and Shorin and are the basis for Ti. So they are neither Goju and Shorin or both, depending on your point of view.

I¡¦m curious to hear about who it is you know that trains way. I don¡¦t believe I¡¦ve ever met anyone else off of Okinawa that trains Sanchin Tenshin before.

Daniel Kogan
23rd February 2004, 21:42
soory about the funky symbols, home PC is encoding differently :(

Nyuck3X
1st March 2004, 16:55
Daniel, I did not know about the cross over.
Did Miyagi go to Shuri district and learn this, or
was it part of the training he received in China?
My point is, if he learned it from a Shuri practitioner,
then it was not part of his original syllabus but
he had found some use for it and adopted it.
(amendment) In rereading your posts, I gather that
your opinion is that these two kata predate the formation of
Shuri and Naha Te and actually belong to the predecessor
Okinawa Te therefore do not "belong" to either.
In this argument I agree.

I should point out that my experience is limited to
what I have seen here in California.
Thank-you for the insite.

I was noticing the other day all of the different ways
Naihanchi is spelled. Nifanchi, Nifanji and I have even seen
Naihanchin. Taking this last spelling, does anyone have any
background on the original kanji of both S(anchin) and Naih(anchin)?
Do they share the same characters?

Peace.

Iron Chef
1st March 2004, 17:11
Originally posted by Daniel Kogan
Tenshin is "body displacement" often called Taisabaki in mainland Japan, although Taisabaki is usually more about turning whereas in Okinawa, Tenshin is more about walking or "moving your body" from one location to another.

Sanchin Tenshin is essentially the walking pattern and the body mechanics of Sanchin Kata , although without the striking or blocking techniques.

Thanks for the reply. I didn't know if you had meant tenshin or had mis typed Tensho. We don't use the term Sanchin Tenshin but we spend quite a bit of time on Sanchin walking. We also do this with weights. Kame or nigiri game are the most common (Jars or Gripping Jars, a poor man's alternative is the big picle jars that resturaunts get their pickles in. You can get these at Sam's club but you better really like dill pickles. There are other hojo undo tools also.

Something else we do is Sanchin walking the length of the room with the hand techniques from the kata. I had a hard time remembering the formal pattern of kata sanchin as a student because we rarely did the formal pattern but, spent most of our time going up and down the whole floor. Made it hard to remeber sometimes if it was time to turn or not. I'm just not that talented.

Thanks again for the reply.