Best SMR Jodo Book?

[SMJodo]

Does anyone have an opinion on a good SMR Jodo book for reference? I know a few of them are "Aiki-jo" related, but I was looking for a book that is only SMR Jodo? I think our esteemed moderator has one, but I couldn't find in Koryu.com - weird. If anyone knows of other good ones, please let me know. Thanks.

[Ian Christie]

Have you read (multiple times) all of the articles on koryu.com? I've read a number of them and I am working through the rest. They're an excellent source of info.

Best of luck,


P.S. If you have access to a Kinokunya bookstore, they might have something.

[Tim Atkinson]

There are two books that I personally have that are fantastic.

Jodo Kyohan (http://budogu.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/product321.html). It is in Japanese but as they say a picture is worth a thousand words. It is out of print, however like the like providd it is available. If you or a friend can get to japan you can pick copies up from second hand book stores. The good thing is that this book has images od Shimizu Sensei the last head of SMR. This book covers all Jo kata.

The second book (the first I purchased) is "Jodo: Way of the Stick" a book by Pacal Krieger one of only two Menkyo Kaiden outside of Japan. You maybe able to track down a contact for him through the International Jodo federation or his own site, . This book covers Kihon, omote and chudan and is in both english and french and is only avaialable directly from Mr Krieger.

Peter Boylan can also provide other text that may not always be available elsewhere.Mugendo Budogu (http://budogu.com/) I have used his services and they are both prompt and professional. He also practises SMR Jo which means he understands where you are coming from.

These books are not easy to find, but are both worth the effort. Hope this helps.

[SMJodo]

Ian - yes, I've read just about all of them. They're definitely a good source of information.

Tim - Thanks for the ideas. I'll definitely have to check into some of those.

[Bill Gallant]

I've personally always used Kim Taylors jodo book, straight forward, text and photos. Cheap too!!!
Bill Gallant

[SMJodo]

Bill,

Is that the one called the "Little Jodo Book" or something similar?

[kmorgan]

Hi Guys,
Kim's book is "The little book of Jodo"
Link:
http://www.sdksupplies.netfirms.com/cat_manual.htm

Ken Morgan

[Jack B]

Matsui sensei has a couple of books on SMR. One is a historical monograph that was available in translation from IHS. (Much of this info is in Kim's "Little Book".) Another is a large photo volume of the techniques comparable to Kaminoda's Jodo Kyohan, called "Tenshin Shoden Shinto Muso Ryu Jojutsu" which is available at Mugendo Budogu as well as Buyubooks (http://www.buyubooks.com/feature.cfm?f=24).

[Peter Boylan]

I'd like to note that Jodo Kyoten, which covers the ZNKR Seiteigata has been republished in a really nice softcover version with side-by-side English language translation. The new title is "JODO". You can find it on my website at http://budogu.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/product323.html

I did the translation, so if there are any problems, you can yell at me.

[SMJodo]

I just received Kim Taylor's book about a week ago. It's pretty complete and representative of what I'm learning. It basically saved me from transferring about a year of notes into a book of my own. It doesn't have any advanced kata beyond the first 12, but it's a very good detailed reference to have. I'd reccommend it, although I wish it came bound in more permanemt cover.

[nicojo]

Hi,

Is Dave Lowry's jo book, Jo: Art of the Japanese Short Staff, considered an SMR jodo book, or is it coming from his koryu background? (I am thinking that SMR jodo is somewhat cognate with ZNKR iaido or ZNNR naginata--koryu derived certainly but now something a little different and regulated after a certain non-koryu fashion. Correct by all means if I am wrong, but no flames if I have made an obvious error because I have only just now started looking into this on my own.) I don't have this book, nor will I attempt to be a jo master from it, all the disclaimers here, blah blah blah. I know nothing of jo, but sometime I would like to learn if I am in an area with a reputable dojo.

I thought Lowry's bokken book, Bokken Art of the Japanese Sword, was good for what it was intended to be, much better than Nicklaus Suino's Practice Drills for Japanese Swordsmanship, in my opinion. So I have been thinking I may buy his Jo book.

[SMJodo]

I'm not sure. Based solely on what I have heard, I think his book covers the 31 Aiki-jo kata, not SM Jodo. Maybe someone here could shed some more light on that one.........

[Dave Lowry]

Dear Mr. Nicojo,
The training manual I did on the jo (a bit pretentious to call it a book)is devoted entirely to the use of the jo for aikido students. Nothing in there even remotely koryu.

Not incidentally, there is very little connexion between the ZNKR seitei version of jodo and the Shindo/to Muso ryu. The former is a modern distillate. The latter is a classical koryu.

Cordially,

[Todd Schweinhart]

Hey fellas,

Another great book on Shinto Muso Ryu is by Pascal Krieger (a kaiden level practitioner). The name of the book escapes me right now. The book is in French but also has English on the other page. Some great Japanese calligraphy also. I have heard that Mr. Krieger is quite good with the brush as well as the stick! :-) I have one at home and if no one posts the proper name I will check later. It is a very hard book to find though. Hope this helps.
Best,
Todd Schweinhart
www.yoshindojo.com

[Tim Atkinson]

Todd,

Check my previous post. Mr Kreiger pened the kanji for "jo" in the front of my copy.

As stated you can still get copies directly through him. The price has actually dropped as he has been able to recover the money outlayed for the print run. I have been told that he still has a number of boxes of books.

[nicojo]

Hard to beat getting the author's own words on his training manual! Thanks for the information. I guess technically I learned a little aikijo when I was living in Boston finding out if Aikido was for me, for about three months with the MIT study group (very good place, it would have been nice to stay, taught by Dick Stroud, under Kanai-sensei). We did some partner work with bokken and jo, but then I moved back to Washington and so I wouldn't claim any deep knowledge from my short stay, though they were very good. It was about five years ago anyway. I certainly don't know seitei jodo or koryu jo.


Not incidentally, there is very little connexion between the ZNKR seitei version of jodo and the Shindo/to Muso ryu. The former is a modern distillate. The latter is a classical koryu. Thanks for this clarification as well. I had gotten my initials mixed up, but I think I see the relationship now.


Back to your regularly scheduled thread discussion...

Oh, by the way e-budoka, I suppose it should either be "Mr. Nicolaysen" or simply "nicojo", which was just a nickname my nihonjin friends from college called me, from Nicolaysen, Jon. "Jon" is my father's name too, so I don't usually go by that either....urg, does that sound too pretentious or finicky? Not my intention.

Cheers,

[Tony Peters]

I keep seeing this book when I go to the bookstore
Shinto Muso Ryu Jojutsu Zukai
It's all line drawings but it looks fairly comprehensive

Any thoughts? I'll likely pick it up "eventually"

[Andy Watson]

Mr Lowry

With all respect I am surprised at your earlier comment about the lack of connection between ZNKR Seitei Jodo and SMR Jodo. I would certainly agree with you on that front if we look at Seitei Jodo from the last twenty years.

More recently however, the likes of Sensei's Matsui, Yano etc have done wonders to bring Seitei Jodo back to a style much, much closer to the original koryu.

I have practised a little koryu and find that most Japanese teachers teach the techniques of both seitei and koryu in a fairly similar fashion.

Yours respectfully

[Earl Hartman]

Mr Watson:

ZNKR seitei jo is to SMR jo as ZNKR seitei iai is to koryu iaijutsu. It is obvious that ZNKR seitei jo is derived directly from SMR jo, but it is done differently and has developed along its own lnes for its own reasons. If the ZNKR is abandoning the kendo-style stances and striking methods, which have done much to take jo away from its roots, well that's great. More power to them.

However, it must be borne in mind that the ZNKR oranization and the ranks it confers are entirely separate from those of koryu SMR jo. So, from that perspective, while seitei jo owes its existence to koryu SMR jo and is obviously based upon it, it is a separate enity and has gone its own way. That is really the difference to which Mr. Lowry is referring.

[Andy Watson]

Earl (please call me Andy)

While I don't disagree with what you are saying about the connection, I was referring to Mr Lowry's comment "Not incidentally, there is very little connexion between the ZNKR seitei version of jodo and the Shindo/to Muso ryu. The former is a modern distillate. The latter is a classical koryu."

I am fully aware that the two can exist without any inherent connection but the reality is that many of the high grades in the ZNKR are also the same in MSR. To say there is very little connection, I believe, is overemphasising the tenuousness of the link. I would rather have thought that they are very strongly linked but are completely independant of each other.

Or is that what you are saying anyway?

(Glad to be generating a discussion in the Jo Forum)

[jjones]

I contacted Pascal about his book a couple of months back and he stated that he had just sent out his last two copies. If anyone else knows or hears something different I'd love to get my hands on a copy.

Jeff Jones

[Earl Hartman]

Originally posted by Andy Watson
but the reality is that many of the high grades in the ZNKR are also the same in MSR.
Andy, I don't understand this. Could you please elaborate?

To the best of my knowledge, there are no dan-i ranks in traditional SMR jo.

Do you mean, perhaps, that many of the high-ranking teachers in ZNKR seitei jo also hold high ranks in traditional SMR jo?

If so, then the need for seitei jo as a separate entity is even less clear to me than it was before. If these teachers hold high gradings in traditional SMR jo, why not just teach traditional SMR jo?

[Jack B]

Marketing.

[renfield_kuroda]

Originally posted by Andy Watson
I am fully aware that the two can exist without any inherent connection but the reality is that many of the high grades in the ZNKR are also the same in MSR. To say there is very little connection, I believe, is overemphasising the tenuousness of the link. I would rather have thought that they are very strongly linked but are completely independant of each other.

At least here in Japan, ZNKR Joren and the various koryu branches of Shindomusoryu are totally, completely, unlinked -- having nothing whatsoever to do with each other in many, many respects.
The only relationship may be that many of the older koryu instructors helped found the ZNKR Joren back in the day (Shiokawa, Shimizu, etc.) though few are still involved in it now.

Regards,

r e n

[JimmyCrow]

Originally posted by jjones
I contacted Pascal about his book a couple of months back and he stated that he had just sent out his last two copies. If anyone else knows or hears something different I'd love to get my hands on a copy.

Jeff Jones

Jeff,
Here is where I got my copy a couple of years ago;

http://buchantiquariat.com/index.htm

direct link: http://buchantiquariat.com/marktplatz/detail.php?siteid=3898

If you have trouble with the French pages just send them an email and they will get back to you about payment and shipping.

Good Luck

[FastEd]

Originally posted by renfield_kuroda
At least here in Japan, ZNKR Joren and the various koryu branches of Shindomusoryu are totally, completely, unlinked -- having nothing whatsoever to do with each other in many, many respects.
Regards,

r e n

All the Jodo Sensei we have had over here in Guelph practice both SMR and ZNKR Jo. I have no idea about what the links are, I just know that they do practice both.

[Tom Christy]

Mr. Kuroda,

I can't say that I have your experience "on the ground" in Japan, but I have some experience with the jo world in Tokyo. I know that some of the menkyo holders in SMR don't have anything to do with the ZNKR seitei stuff, but I do know that Matsui sensei, Matsumura sensei, and Kaminoda sensei are all in attendance for the semi-annual seitei jo gradings at the Budokan. I would hazard to say then that at least some of the koryu group do maintain a presence in the seitei world and do in fact interact on a regular basis. At Matsumura sensei's dojo in Yoyogi, seitei and koryu are both taught.

Just a thought,

Tom Christy

[renfield_kuroda]

Interesting, didn't know that. Seems like there are several major lines of koryu SMR jo, and some (like in Fukuoka) are less connected to Zenjoren than others (Tokyo Police academy links, etc.)

Regards,

r e n

[Andy Watson]

Earl

Tom has named a few of the sensei's I was referring to, I was also going to mention Yano sensei too.

As to your last question, why don't they just teach traditional SMR Jo, maybe you should ask them. My personal response would be the same as for seitei iai in that it makes the martial art more accessible to people.

Now before we get onto the subject of watering down the art by feeding it to the masses, I would refer to the dozens of classical arts which have been lost due to teachers being a bit too discerning on who to pass the lineage on to.

Gaaahhh, hasn't this been done to death before on other threads?

[Earl Hartman]

Andy, I take it by your answer that my assumption was correct: that high ranking instructors in ZNKR seitei jo are also highly ranked in SMR, not that there are dan-i ranks in SMR.

Well, seitei iai never made any sense to me either. Why teach people a bunch of made-up stuff if you expect them to learn real iai later? Just teach them the real thing from the get-go. Same thing goes for jo.

I simply do not accept the idea that traditional jo, or any other traditional art, is "inaccessible" and that you need to change it to make it more widely available. If you want to make proper, traditional jo more available, just allow the traditional teachers to use the ZNKR as a medium through which to propogate the traditional version of the art. There should be no reason to change the actual techniques of the art just because it is affiliated with the ZNKR.

This just points up the danger of expanding the organization just for the sake of expanding it. In expanding it, compromises have to be made to accomodate the feelings of the teachers, many of whom don't necessarily see eye-to-eye. There is always a danger in this.

Anyway, I don't think traditional jo is inaccessible. It is just that the nature of the art does not allow for rapid bureuacratic expansion. However, if you want traditional jo, you can find it.

One of the senior people in the Yagyu Kai in Japan said "It is not necessary to spread Yagyu Shinkage Ryu. If Yagyu Shinkage Ryu continues to exist, that is enough". Strange statement, huh? But it applies to any art.

What he really meant was that there is no value in spreading the art widely if, by doing so, the intrinsic nature of the art is compromised, since if that happens there is a question as to whether the art being propogated is really what it once was. If maintaining the true nature of the art means that the organization must stay small, so be it.

[renfield_kuroda]

I remember Niina-gosoke telling a story: when a Jo sensei came up to Tokyo from Fukuoka (I think it was Kaminoda-sensei, but could have been Shimizu-sensei...) to teach at the Tokyo Police Academy, he found that the traditional SMR Jo was "too hard" for them to learn. So he simplified it a bit, and that eventually became Seitei Jo.

Dunno if there's much truth to the story, but that's how Niina-gosoke explains the birth of seitei jo!

Regards,

r e n

[Jeff Hamacher]

i have some information from an official print source tucked away somewhere that describes in brief the history of the Seiteigata (as well as the kihon dousa). i don't recall offhand how much detail is included on the rationale for their creation, but it did say something in that regard. i'll dig it up and post a translated precis later. i'm pretty sure the story you tell, Ren, about teaching the police is related to the kihon; as i recall, they were devised as an expedient for large class teaching where everyone would be doing the same thing at the same time. until into the 20th century, students of jo would have probably learned simply by performing kata like so many other koryu arts.

as for the value of the Seiteigata, i've heard some interesting insights during my training (reasons other than those bureaucratic or political), but none that i feel free to discuss publicly.

[renfield_kuroda]

Not to defend seitei (jo, iai, or anything else) but the best reasoning I have heard is that the seitei are safe. Comparing some of the original koryu kata to their seitei versions, I can see the logic. So by being safe they are easier to teach to large groups of people at the same time.
Whether that is good or not is another issue.

Regards,

r e n

[ulvulv]

In seiteijo you at least get introduced to kata that you will later meet in smr.
A weakness of zenkenren-iai is that the kata are quite different from what you later do in msr, mjer or whatever. Fortunately, znkr-iai has no other flaws. Haha..

[Andy Watson]

Well there seems to be fair spread of views on this.

Earl, I agree with everything that you have written in terms of it's technical correctness but with regards to your opinion on the spreading of the art, I know that unless seitei jo had been created I

a) wouldn't have known about jodo
b) certainly wouldn't have been practising it
c) wouldn't have been able to find a teacher in the UK even if I had known about it

So you see, I can do nothing less than support seitei and it's widespread approach. Subjective I'm sure but that's life.

Thanks for the chat Earl.

[Earl Hartman]

It is my understanding that Shimizu Sensei created the kihon dousa as an aid to teaching. I have been told that back in the day the student would simply start on the kata right away. The kihon dousa may very well have been created to make it easier to teach large groups of people; but for individuals as well it makes learning the art easier, since it becomes very clear how the individual kata are made up of different combinations of the kihon dousa. Of course, all of the movements of jo are not contained wthin the kihon dousa, but many of them are.

I think that there might be a misunderstanding about how the "real koryu" kata are too dangerous and that is why the seitei kata were developed. I have seen some seitei jo and I recognize the kata. And, as someone said upthread, all of the kata in the seitei set are from different parts of the SMR syllabus; they are just presented in a different order. I don't think any of them are "made up" as some seitei iai kata appear to be (at least to my untrained eye; I understand that they are constantly changing). Of course, the more advanced one becomes in SMR, the more difficult and dangerous the kata become, but that is true of any art, I suppose.

Andy, your point regarding seitei jo being an introduction to jo is a valid one; my point is not that jo shouldn't be taught widely; I just still fail to understand why it was necessary to create an entirely new set of kata, change the order in which they are learned, kendoize the movements, and rename the whole thing "seitei". Jo could have been widely taught through the ZNKR without changing the nature of the art in any way. Since jo is not a sport like kendo is, there is no need to sacrifice the combative effectiveness of the techniques on the twin altars of sport and the perceived need for a forced congruity with kendo ideas of proper movement and posture. So, I still don't see the point of the changes that were made.

[Jeff Hamacher]

as promised, i'll give you the quick and messy translation of the document that i have, but sadly it doesn't offer any earth-shattering insights.

according to this, "jodo" (here meaning all the extant schools of jojutsu) came into the administrative fold of the ZenKenRen in 1956. grading tests were held for students using the kata of the school with which they trained because no Seiteigata existed. judging from this comment, the ZenKenRen had started issuing dan'i.

by 1963, the jodo study committee of the ZenKenRen had come to the conclusion that a set of "neutral, non-ryuha-specific" Seiteigata should be devised, and so the ZenKenRen instructed the committee of 14 members headed by Shimizu-sensei to create one. in the spring of 1968, the draft proposal for the Seiteigata and the kihon dousa was approved, and these new forms were introduced to practitioners at different times in 1968 and 1969, most notably at demonstrations by Shimizu-sensei and Otofuji Ichizou-sensei.

for those readers of Japanese who are interested, there's quite a bit of information at this website (http://homepage.mac.com/musoryu/menu.html). as an aside, Earl, this site states that the second and fourth forms of the Seiteigata were created by Shimizu-sensei while all the others are essentially lifted from the koryu.

[Andy Watson]

In Matsui/Kaminoda book it states that Shimizu S included the two katas as adaptions from Uchida Ryu Tanjojutsu.

[Earl Hartman]

Jeff:

Are jo techniques from other schools (e.g. Muhi Muteki Ryu)included in the seiteigata, or when the document says "non ryuha specific" are they just talking about different lines of transmission within SMR jo? AFAIK, all of the seiteigata are taken from SMR.

[Jeff Hamacher]

Originally posted by Earl Hartman
Jeff:

Are jo techniques from other schools (e.g. Muhi Muteki Ryu) included in the seiteigata, or when the document says "non ryuha specific" are they just talking about different lines of transmission within SMR jo? AFAIK, all of the seiteigata are taken from SMR.

Earl,

i think there are two themes in your post; i'll try to answer them this way:

1) my translation "non-ryuha-specific" was a little lazy; a more precise rendering of the phrase in the book (kakuha ni hen-shinai) would be "without bias or favour towards any given school". in this case, kakuha would mean SMR, MMR, and so forth. in the late 50's or early 60's, was there any sense that SMR had already split? wasn't Shimizu-sensei recognized as the man with everyone else following him?

2) the website i cited above is the only place i have seen the statement regarding Shimizu-sensei's creation of Suigetsu and Shamen from scratch; all the others are slight modifications of SMR koryu no kata or sections thereof spliced together (e.g. Seigan). the name Shamen appears nowhere in the list of SMR koryu no kata, and i have no idea what similarities exist between the two "versions" of Suigetsu.

i find it somewhat contradictory that the bulk of the Seiteigata comes from SMR while this book claims that the committee was operating on a principle of "no bias", but i suppose that's not for me to comment on. :-)

[Earl Hartman]

OK, now we're getting somewhere. I would translate kakuha ni hen shinai as meaning "not to favor/lean towards any one branch/line/faction"; and I interpret this to mean to not favor any line or faction within SMR. As I understand it, SMR has never had a single headmaster but that there are different traditions (den) within the school. There is definitely a Kyushu den and a Tokyo den, led by Shimizu Sensei, and they do a number of things differently. I am not really that familiar with these things, but I believe that Kaminoda Sensei is the generally accepted foremost teacher of the Kyushu den . From this perspective, I interpret this passage to mean that the seiteigata were created completely from techniques within SMR and without any additions from any other school but that they gave the different traditions within SMR equal weight. This is not surprising; while I am not familiar with Muhi Muteki Ryu I have seen it demonstrated a few times, and the way they use the jo is totally different from the way SMR uses it.

Regarding seitei, you're right, I had completely forgotten about Suigetsu and Shamen.

[gmlc123]

Originally posted by Earl Hartman
I am not really that familiar with these things, but I believe that Kaminoda Sensei is the generally accepted foremost teacher of the Kyushu den .... Regarding seitei, you're right, I had completely forgotten about Suigetsu and Shamen.

AFAIK Kaminoda Sensei's Menkyo Kaiden was issued by Shimizu Sensei, whereas Matsui Sensei having received his Menkyo Kaiden from Otofuji Sensei would be considered the foremost teacher of the Kyushu den.

Also keep in mind that Suigetsu and Shamen are from keijojutsu (police stick art). Derived from SMR (more direct application orientated) and later incorporated into the formulation of Seiteigata.

[Earl Hartman]

Greg:

Thanks for the info. Since I train under Relnick Sensei, I haven't really paid that much attention to other lines within SMR and I really don't know too much about them. What is the relationship between Shimizu Sensei and Otofuji Sensei?

Also interesting info about where Shamen and Suigetsu came from.

[Eric Montes]

Earl,
Greg is correct. Kaminoda Sensei is one of the senior exponents of Tokyo den and received kaiden from Shimizu Sensei. Until his death, Otofuji Sensei, was THE most senior practitioner of the ryu, and the senior exponent of kyushu den.

I am not sure who is the most senior now.

Regarding suigetsu and shamen, it is my understanding that are outside of the SMR curriculum, but are derived from existing techniques within Uchida ryu and SMR. It is also my understanding that keijojutsu was derived from the same sources, since one of the reasons Shimizu Sensei was asked to come to Tokyo, was to teach the Police force jo.

Eric

[Jack B]

Greg,

I believe Otofuji sensei awarded several Menkyo Kaiden. I do not think Matsui sensei is the most senior, but he is undoubtedly the most prominent.

[Earl Hartman]

Oh, so Kaminoda S. does Tokyo-den, not Kyushu den? Oops. :rolleyes:

Well, that just shows you how much I know about what's going on in jo outside of Nishioka Sensei's line.

[Jack B]

Wayne Muromoto (http://www.koryubooks.com/library/wmuromoto1.html)
Kim Taylor (http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncart_taylor_0900.htm)
Pascal Krieger (http://www.fej.ch/anglais/ehisto_p.html)

HTH

[Earl Hartman]

Thanks. Very informative.

[gmlc123]

Originally posted by Earl Hartman
Greg:

Thanks for the info. Since I train under Relnick Sensei, I haven't really paid that much attention to other lines within SMR and I really don't know too much about them. What is the relationship between Shimizu Sensei and Otofuji Sensei?

Also interesting info about where Shamen and Suigetsu came from.

Earl

You're welcome. Shimizu Sensei was Otofuji Sensei's Sempai. AFAIK they both (??) trained under Shiraishi Sensei in Kyushu. From memory, Shimizu Sensei went to Tokyo, then Otofuji joined him for a couple of years until Shiraishi Sensei passing at which time he returned to Kyushu to run the dojo.

The primary difference between Shimizu and Otofuji Senseis' kata is in the timing. Shimizu Sensei was more ai-uchi with kiriotoshi de-ai (uchikomi), whereas Otofuji Sensei was more defend first then counter. The differences can be easily seen in Gyakute Hikiotoshi section of Midaredome (ie. zen & go variations). Each has it's own merit depending on how much time you have up your sleeve.

Re: Suigetsu/Shamen & Keijojutsu. This is also the reason why Uchidachi shouldn't pause before cutting with these two kata, unlike other Kata where Uchidachi should pause a little before cutting.

Regards
Greg

[gmlc123]

Originally posted by Jack B
Greg,

I believe Otofuji sensei awarded several Menkyo Kaiden. I do not think Matsui sensei is the most senior, but he is undoubtedly the most prominent.

Jack

Understood, I agree the better choice of words would be "most prominent".

Regards
Greg

[Earl Hartman]

Grg:

Thanks. I looked at the links Jack posted and found out pretty much what I needed to know.