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chizikunbo
17th February 2004, 19:00
I was just wanting to know what people think of Gichen Funakoshi's book Karate-Do Kyohan?

Gene Williams
17th February 2004, 21:47
I think it is indispensable for any Shotokan student.

Goju Man
18th February 2004, 00:42
Originally posted by Gene Williams
I think it is indispensable for any Shotokan student.
Gene, even Hector owns a copy.:cool:

n2shotokai
18th February 2004, 00:58
It is the "Master Text".

I find it interesting that the katas performed in Karate-do Kyohan differ from JKA kata AND from SKA. If I understand correctly, Mr. Ohshima finished the book for O'sensei Funakoshi and performed the katas just as he was taught. It was not until Mr. Ohshima returned to the U.S. that he changed the katas.

hectokan
18th February 2004, 02:59
Yeah,I own a copy alright,that one and the early Oyama books were like a visual karate fantasy for me when I was a teenager.


PS.I still want to open the cover paper page and take the picture of the shotokan tiger on the hard cover and go visit a tatoo parlor. :eek:

Goju Man
18th February 2004, 05:02
Originally posted by hectokan
Yeah,I own a copy alright,that one and the early Oyama books were like a visual karate fantasy for me when I was a teenager.


PS.I still want to open the cover paper page and take the picture of the shotokan tiger on the hard cover and go visit a tatoo parlor. :eek:

Next to the Sugi tattoo??:eek:

Jay Vail
18th February 2004, 10:44
It's an interesting book, for it shows how much karate has changed since then and how much it has remained the same. You should also see the video "Gichin Funakoshi -- 1924 Vintage Footage." It shows the master and others in the 1920s doing kata and one-step sparring. The quality of the film is spotty because of the age of the film and the level of technology, but the content is fascinating.

kibby
29th February 2004, 02:04
How so? You got my interest and where can I get the footage?

chizikunbo
29th February 2004, 03:23
i think it is a great book

Old Dragon
1st March 2004, 07:05
All of Funakoshi's books apply to all karate. There is a reason he is known as the Father of Modern Day karate. He took it from the secrecy of Okinawa to the schools of Japan. I beleive that he is the source for the modern day philosophy of karate, sport and the betterment of self that has developed in todays martial arts coming out of Japan and Okinawa.

mike O'leary

RobertW
1st March 2004, 07:50
I'm wondering, how Itosu ha was Mr. Funakoshi's system? He was with Itosu, so ...
I owned the book at one time and found it useful. I did practice shotokan at that time so...
Someone swiped it. Doh!

Old Dragon
1st March 2004, 08:01
I said he was the father of modern day karate, not systems. I dont practice shotokan but I do realize the impact of funakoshi on what all of us do today.

mike O'leary

Gene Williams
1st March 2004, 11:42
You should read Nagamine's book on the Okinawan Masters. Funakoshi was sent to Japan because of his social polish, noit because of his karate skills. There were many of higher rank and more ability. Many Okinawan practitioner's, while not diminishing his role in the popularization of karate in Japan nor his overall contributions, feel that he radically chaged Okinawan kata and philosophy. Shotokan is nothing like Shorin or Okinawan Shito ryu, Isshinryu, or other Okinawan ryu. The philosophy is different, the kata are different, the flavor is different. Motobu did not care for Funakoshi at all.

Iron Chef
1st March 2004, 15:01
Didn't Funkoshi's philosophy mirror Itosu's philosophy? It was Itosu who institutionalized karate and started teaching it to school children.

Hello Yoshi, How was school today? Great! I killed 5 kids in karate class father. :laugh:

Shotokan isn't anything like the karate of Funakoshi Gichen either. I started out in Shotokan in 1974. I saw copies of Funakoshi books that had the original pictures in it. When I first saw the pictures I didn't know anything about Shorin Ryu. My first reaction was where is his stances. :laugh: It was nothing like the photos that were reshot during the Nakayama reign. I guess most the changes originated with his son. I think his name was Giko. There are some really good Shotokan historians that read this forum maybe they will give us the real scoop. This post is just based on my conclusionions after seeing original photos vs what I was taught and then later what I picked up training at a Shorin Ryu dojo off and on for the last 16 years. But I'm just a Goju guy so maybe there are really radical subtle changes in kihon but I recognized the old pictures as Shorin kihon. But still I'm just a Goju guy.

Nagamine's book is great.

n2shotokai
1st March 2004, 15:29
That would be Gigo Funakoshi. Shotokan karate is but one element that came out of the Japanese universities. My understanding is two main elements came out of the universities. One element was the group who wanted to build up the Japanese after the war, who focused on competition and sport (shotokan). The other element focused on the art aspect, shunning commercialism and sport to pursue betterment through practising a martial art (shotokai). In the USA, shotokan is what you see and I am willing to bet most people have never witnessed shotokai. Having studied both, it is apples and oranges different. Shotokan is not the only measure.

Iron Chef
1st March 2004, 15:39
One thing I have never understood is why in this posture the back hand is up over the head instead of elbow down fist in fron of the side of face about jawline level where it can do things like block and trap which is the way I was taught how to do the technique in Shorin Ryu. This is a serious question I assume there is a reason for this posture.

n2shotokai
1st March 2004, 15:53
This has (Japanese karate) two main bunkai. The previous move in kata is a shuto hand low then pulled back to this position. One definition is a defense against a mae geri where the hand goes to the outside of the kick to deflect and then rotates to become a sweep and throw. The other main definition is an attack that "plucks" the testicles from the opponent and you then raise them high up behind you so all other potential attackers can see you waving the said items as if to say "looky here, look what I got". ;)

hectokan
1st March 2004, 16:01
[QUOTE]The other main definition is an attack that "plucks" the testicles from the opponent and you then raise them high up behind you so all other potential attackers can see you waving the said items as if to say "looky here, look what I got".


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

n2shotokai
1st March 2004, 16:04
I knew you would appreciate that. I have a lady in my class that always ended up with her back hand too low. After I told her this once, I never had to tell her again :eek:

hectokan
1st March 2004, 16:08
Steve,

I remeber doing this kata and trying to vividly visualize the bunkai.I still have a hard time registering it in my mind.:wave:

n2shotokai
1st March 2004, 17:06
I showed her just like that little yellow dude, a little wave "here they are". Believe me, the lady in my class remembers vividly! Ya think I have too much fun?

Iron Chef
1st March 2004, 17:14
'Plucking the peach' was the bunkai I was told but I could never get around the problem of pants. I don't think I could do that if my opponent was wearing Levi button flies. I like the Matsumura Seito version better I think.

TimoS
1st March 2004, 18:46
Originally posted by Iron Chef
'Plucking the peach' was the bunkai I was told but I could never get around the problem of pants. I don't think I could do that if my opponent was wearing Levi button flies. I like the Matsumura Seito version better I think.

So what is their version of the move ?

Iron Chef
1st March 2004, 19:09
Three main ones ones I have been taught but remember, I am just a Goju guy.

First one is basic, pure atemi. Back hand blocks front hand hits him, (Bladder, floating ribs, groin, whatever is handy. :)
They are very good at having at least one pure atemi interpretation for their postures. It gives the students who don't have the skills to work torite something to train. Maybe they want to take time time to assess a student before you teach him the good stuff. I don't know. I'm just a Goju Guy.

Second one Steve touched on, kick trap except you maintain the elbow down crook arm postion that actual traps the leg then hit him, take him down and stomp the !!!! out of him as deemed necessary.

Third one gets into some torite stuff where you hyperextend the opponents attacking arm at the elbow ( punch grab whatever, doesn't matter much.) this is combined with a simultaneous strike to opponent.

I'm just a Goju guy. I aint no closed door Shorin disciple. I don't know which is oyo and which is bunkai here. My Goju teacher differentiates between the two. Shorin is so old maybe the bunkai is lost and it is all oyo now. I guess each individual kancho would has his 'bunkai' so I suppose the differentiation could still stand. I don't know if the Shorin guys differentiatebetween the 2. I never asked Sensei. I guess I could ask my boy he does Shorin but I don't think he knows either.

Again I'm just a Goju guy.

TimoS
1st March 2004, 19:21
Originally posted by Iron Chef
Again I'm just a Goju guy.

Really ? Never would have guessed that, since you mentioned it only about a half dozen times :D Seriously though, thanks for the answer. Now I need to find someone "willing" to work on those myself. Seemed quite logical, although the atemi stuff is still a bit beyond my experience

n2shotokai
1st March 2004, 19:56
Ed, what style is it that you study?

Iron Chef
1st March 2004, 20:01
Goju Ryu

Iron Chef
1st March 2004, 20:08
When I was in College 1982 - 87. My roomate was a student ( still is) of Phil Koeppel. This got me involved with that group. A great bunch of guys. I've tried to remain in contact over the years. I have been a member of their organization for a long time. I teach their kobudo. They do Shorin Ryu. When my boy wanted to learn karate but I was too much a hard !!! on my son I sent him to one of their dojos. I still train with them pretty regularly but I am a Goju Guy.

RobertW
1st March 2004, 20:35
I look at Itosu as "The father of Modern Karate". All in all I feel that this is a more 'accurate' assessment.

Gene Williams
1st March 2004, 22:09
Robert, I agree...or even Mabuni, who has probably influenced more Okinawan and Japanese karate than Funakoshi.

Old Dragon
2nd March 2004, 00:34
Once again gentle men, please read what I wrote. I think that Gene is right, he was the best "statesman" for the job, not necessairly the best karate man. Fact is his involvement with the Japanese school system changed the face of karate.

That does not mean he was first, doesnt mean he was the best, but then again who gets to be president EH!


For what ever reason, he had the impact. And yes I have read nagamine's book.

People like Nagamine also made advances and changes to karate, and how it was presented. It wasnt a one man movement.......... neither was circumnavigating the globe.. but Columbus got the credit,,,,,, going to the moon...... same thing......

Mike O'leary

Sochin
2nd March 2004, 01:49
As far as the pulling move from Pinan Godan goes, if you got a good handful you may not get it that high but the kata teaches you to try to do it!! And to hammer into the pubic bone at the same time.

:)

RobertW
2nd March 2004, 06:09
Personally, I enjoyed Mr. Nagamine's book. There seems to have been some disdain for him as a person in certain circles. I have heard things from a few reputable sources. Is there any truth to that? Do you think the things in Mr. Bishop's book were true? I mean, his recent activity seems to call his repute into quetion, however...

Timothy.G.B.
2nd March 2004, 20:48
Iron Chef:

You asked if there was a reason why the hand was so high in the picture of Funakoshi, and in my opinion the answer is that it is improper technique and a lack of understanding of that move.

I will risk getting slammed by all who diagree but Funakoshi's understanding of Shorin is quite basic and one need look no further than his own pictures. Compare Motobu's Naihanchi pictures with Funakoshi's Naihanchi pictures and judge for yourself.

In this picture, Funakoshi is in a very vulnerable position, demonstrating that he doesn't understand how to use his karate for fighting. If he did, he would never put his arm up like that and expand his chest.

Regarding the whole "pluck the peach bunkai" explanation. That is the standard Shotokan version, which I was given when I trained in Japanese karate, but the Shorin that I am learning does not teach this.

My two cents worth.

Tim Black

:)

hectokan
2nd March 2004, 21:04
Can someone please explain the shorin bunkai application?,so that I can say......YEAH WOW THAT SURE MAKES A HELL OF A LOT OF SENSE NOW:laugh:

Timothy.G.B.
2nd March 2004, 21:22
How easy is it to explain bunkai in a e-budo post? I can describe it to you here but it won't make as much sense as actually learning it. In order to explain the bunkai I would need to reference bunkai and fighting applications which go beyond "this move means this".

However, let me give it the ole college try...Okinawan kokutsu dachi, leaning away from the person, is the initial move, blocking and striking simultaneously and that is it for the bunkai. In shotokan you lean in in zen kutsu dachi, grab with the right hand and then pull the peach while moving into shotokan kokutsu dachi. In each, the person stands up after this move, hence the picture.

The actual application of the move is related to naihanchi, kusanku sho/dai, jion, and others so I wouldn't even attempt to offer an explanation. I can understand your frustration, it was how I felt until I met someone who explained it to me.

Sorry I can't be of more help:( .

Tim Black

hectokan
2nd March 2004, 21:35
Thanks for trying Tim.

Iron Chef
3rd March 2004, 15:45
.

Iron Chef
3rd March 2004, 15:48
He did the same thing with the back hand in Chinto. He change the name to Gankaku at some point I guess. Do any Shorin schools hold the fist over their head like this? Maybe Shito Ryu does this. They get tagged with being Japanese Karate, I guess because Mabuni moved to Osaka and the styles popularity grew there. Just curious. I am trying to go over what little I know about Chinto in my head and figure why the high fist in this posture and it perplexs me much more than in paisai or kusanku or pinan godan.

The only reasons I can come up with is it just looks cool, or one reason may be he wanted to hide the real stuff which sounds kind of like a crazy lame brain conspiracy theory thought to me. Maybe Funakoshi meant what he said when stated:

The ultimate aim of Karate lies not in victory or defeat, but in the perfection of the character of its participants.

Gene Williams
3rd March 2004, 15:54
We in Motobu-ha Shito ryu do the Kyan Chinto, which is different. We call the Funakoshi kata Gankaku. We do not hold the fist high above the head like that in any kata; it is usually done in a leaning stance and the arm and fist are at the same angle as the extended leg. It is often shown as a leg grab an pull takedown, or as a tenchi nage after a wrist grab, but I think that is reaching. Re: groin grabs...sounds sexy, but they are over rated, especially with people wearing jeans. A strike or kick to the groin is always better, and I have had policemen tell me that on drugged up people a groin kick will often only bring a grunt and more combatives. You have to choke those folks out, or risk killing them with too much atemi.

RobertW
3rd March 2004, 16:12
We hold our hand up over our head in that position. Not exactly, but...

n2shotokai
3rd March 2004, 17:14
The suggestions that the karate is wrong, trying to look cool etc.

You are looking at a "Japanese karate" book. When I look at some of the Okinawan karate stuff, it looks odd to me. Don't get me wrong, from what I have seen of Goju Ryu for example, I think it is an awesome style. Still some of the things look odd, because I do not understand them. I do not label them as ineffective, just looks fancy or anything derogatory toward Okinawan karate. The shortcoming is in my own lack of understanding. So it is all about me!

chizikunbo
3rd March 2004, 17:53
Does anyone know who(orginization) practices the clostest to the original kata? Is it Oshimas orginaization?

Also can the first edition still be purchased?

n2shotokai
3rd March 2004, 17:57
Original to what? Ohshima (the guy in 90% of the pics in Karate-do Kyohan) has changed many aspects of katas since he returned to Japan to finish that book. They (SKA) no longer perform a side snap kick at all (smart) for example. They rotate and use a mae geri instead.

TimoS
3rd March 2004, 18:02
I think all "versions" of Shotokan claim to be the only ones doing the original Funakoshi karate ;)

n2shotokai
3rd March 2004, 18:10
Sorry, I meant original as in Japanese, Okinawan or Chinese?

Gene Williams
3rd March 2004, 18:21
For the originals of the kata that Shotokan does, you would have to go to an Okinawan style. For the originals of many of those, to China.

Iron Chef
3rd March 2004, 18:36
Originally posted by n2shotokai
The suggestions that the karate is wrong, trying to look cool etc.

You are looking at a "Japanese karate" book. When I look at some of the Okinawan karate stuff, it looks odd to me. Don't get me wrong, from what I have seen of Goju Ryu for example, I think it is an awesome style. Still some of the things look odd, because I do not understand them. I do not label them as ineffective, just looks fancy or anything derogatory toward Okinawan karate. The shortcoming is in my own lack of understanding. So it is all about me!

OK that's cool. So what is effective by the Statue of Liberty pose?

Chinto is like really out there for me. Of the kata from the Shorin Ryu syllabus it may be the kata I practice the most next to Naihanchi Shodan. Matsumura No Paisai is probably a close second. Chinto had a lot of nice apps but the standing on one leg is quite the thing. I don't do Chinto for its bunkai. I guess the amount of time you spend on one leg in application may be a serious factor that I am blowing over for the sake of no reason really. :) (ie no one would really stay ther very long)

The reason I like Chinto is because it is a !!!!! to perform well. It is a great exercise. I am especially challenged to the hit the posture correctly after the last turn to the rear before the final punch.

I practice a sword method call Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaijutsu. That method has an Okuden waza called Sodome. It is very difficult for me to perform with proper timing and technique. In the waza you move forward draw and cut then you go to put the sword away but before its complete sheathed you get attacked again so you draw and cut again then you repeat the process over so you perform 3 drawing cuts in the waza. The bunkai seems a little silly to me. If you are in a fight I don't understand the hurry to put your weapon away. What the waza does teach you is how to do a very awkward series of movements and how to practice and reinforce certain core sword skills. I wondered sometimes if this was the purpose of some karate kata, namely Japanese Karate Kata :) . Maybe bunkai and reality isn't much of a consideration in its purpose. Just a thought from an old Judo player.

About fighting on one leg. I used to do that a lot in karate before I was a brown belt. Typically in sparring I would shin block or leg check and stick my knee between me and my opponent and usually try to punch over the top. I had to change things up a little when I was given a brown belt to wear because that was when brown belts and black belts are allowed to start kicking me in the thighs. Putting all your weight on one leg kind of sucks when guys start kicking you in the support thigh. Those Dirty Cheating !!!!!!!! !

Iron Chef
3rd March 2004, 18:38
Originally posted by n2shotokai
....They (SKA) no longer perform a side snap kick at all (smart) for example. They rotate and use a mae geri instead.

Nice that sounds more like Matsumura Seito Shorin Ryu.

Timothy.G.B.
3rd March 2004, 21:16
The only difficulty with the arguement that things aren't wrong, just different, is that we all have different perspectives. If you train to fight, then clearly, what Funakoshi Sensei is showing in both Pinan Godan and Chinto (although harder to see in the Chinto picture) is wrong or, if you prefer, dangerous. If fighting is not the point, then any move can have great significance for the person practicing it.

Also, shotokan and shotokai come from Shorinryu. There is no debating where those branches of karate come from. If you want to know the applications for the kata in shotokan, as they were originally intended, then find someone who understands Shorinryu and can use it for fighting. If fighting is not the point, but rather it is personal growth, meditation, "Do", or exercise then any martial art will help a person achieve those goals.

I began my training in shotokan and I know about the creative bunkai that very smart people come up with when they don't understand a move. However, my socks got blown off when I finally met someone who understood Shorinryu and showed me what the moves really were for.

It is my opinion, that in fighting there are things you do and things you don't do or else you might get badly hurt or worse. The Japanese karate that I learned was full of these "bad habits" and I was taught by very earnest and dedicated martial artists.

Again, this is only my opinion and my training now works for me the way I always wanted it to. Far be it from me to say that it is for everyone else. I am sure it is not.

Tim Black

Gene Williams
3rd March 2004, 21:39
Tim, I believe the Okinawan applications such as we use in Motobu-ha Shito-ryu to be simpler and more practical, as well. But, those JKA guys do make pretty kokutsu dachi and nice straight shuto uke...of course it won't block anything. :D :D I'm sorry, I have friends in Shotokan...that was my evil twin.

hectokan
3rd March 2004, 22:17
Ok Gene,

my evil twin sister is comming out now.If fighting were the real point then both the shotokan kata and the original okinawan shorin ryu kata would not be.............aaaaaaaa forget it,we have been thru this many times before.:kiss:

Gene Williams
3rd March 2004, 22:19
Hector, Yes...but if I ran Chinto with a gun....:D

Iron Chef
3rd March 2004, 22:24
Originally posted by Gene Williams
Hector, Yes...but if I ran Chinto with a gun....:D

Good point. Like in that little sideways hammer fist/front kick combo thingy in the beginning of Kusanku and Paisai Dai. I was told originally Kusanku was a hairpin form and Paisai was a knife form. So you put one of those weapons in the hammerhand then that strike thingy has a lot more point to it. (Get it, point :laugh: )

RobertW
3rd March 2004, 23:14
We twist and mae geri in our system. Very Itosu ha.

Goju Man
3rd March 2004, 23:17
Originally posted by Iron Chef
Good point. Like in that little sideways hammer fist/front kick combo thingy in the beginning of Kusanku and Paisai Dai. I was told originally Kusanku was a hairpin form and Paisai was a knife form. So you put one of those weapons in the hammerhand then that strike thingy has a lot more point to it. (Get it, point :laugh: )
Now that you mention it, in the begining of Sepai, the bunkai is I'm drawing my 9MM and aiming in my sidestance while ducking the oncoming bullets. Secret revealed, now I can sleep tonight.:D
Hey Dillman, my bunkai is better than yours.:D

n2shotokai
3rd March 2004, 23:51
Originally posted by Gene Williams
those JKA guys do make pretty kokutsu dachi and nice straight shuto uke...of course it won't block anything. :D :D I'm sorry, I have friends in Shotokan...that was my evil twin.
And just what is wrong with a stance (kokutsu) that works perfectly to guide your opponents mae geri to your package ;) Thought it was by design.

Lay off the shuto, looks great. What's the problem if it has no application? I have told countless shotokan students that straight arm stuff don't work. Heck I have demonstrated on many. Why oh why they continue to go back to it is beyond me. Maybe they like me punching them in the chest. Ya think?

Gene Williams
4th March 2004, 00:30
I do like the JKA Jutte, though.:)

Old Dragon
4th March 2004, 05:52
Man you guys simple kill me hahahhahah

Gene, when are you going to take mercy on all these people trying figure out the stance in chinto.......hahahhahahaha

Funakoshi trained in the days before sport....matter of fact he played a part in developing sport.... but his kata....well that we practicality...


"Grasshopper, If the ant were to kick you in the shin would it hurt? (KICK)

why yes great grand poobah it does! (ouch)

Then why dont you simply move your leg grasshopper? (SWAT)

This move with this bunkai is in several kata in several styles. In some styles it is a revers cat stance, which has more stability but is slower recoil on the kick. Leg in the air has less stability but has a faster return on the kick, once again the same move with different perspectives on what is important.



IN reality........ no need to kick higher than the knee.

"THE TRUE VERSION" of the kata is untraceable, it is the practice of it that counts.

IMHO

Mike O'Leary

Iron Chef
4th March 2004, 14:48
That would be fine if you counter kicked right away in the kata, but you don't. What you do is some gay looking sideways hammerfist thingy while standing on one leg and squaking like a bird, then you eventually kick. I think some karate guy thought 'hey it would be funny if i made my student do this plus it might help his balance problems out a little bit'. Choun no Kon does the same thing alot of forms do but you don't stay there and fight on one leg like in Chinto. I'm with Hector on this one. That why I do Goju Ryu. The bunkai is much better. :laugh:

PS. The squawking like a bird thing is an inside joke. There is one reader here who will get it.

n2shotokai
4th March 2004, 15:26
Originally posted by Iron Chef
That would be fine if you counter kicked right away in the kata, but you don't. What you do is some gay looking The constant snide remarks, style insults, my style is better than your style and the inevitable "your karate is wrong" is getting old.

Cinnabar
4th March 2004, 15:41
Originally posted by Iron Chef
That would be fine if you counter kicked right away in the kata, but you don't. What you do is some gay looking
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The constant snide remarks, style insults, my style is better than your style and the inevitable "your karate is wrong" is getting old.


__________________
Steve Beale


Eddie the iron chef admits he doesn't know much because he is just a goju guy.

Gene Williams
4th March 2004, 18:51
No ryu is better; just different. Of course, we all think our own is best for us or we would not be in it. I don't mind some good natured joking and teasing among members of different ryu...as long as it doesn't get ugly. But, hey, there's the member's lounge for that:D

n2shotokai
4th March 2004, 19:47
Gene,
I agree with you 100%.

Dlyons
4th March 2004, 20:04
Originally posted by n2shotokai
Original to what? Ohshima (the guy in 90% of the pics in Karate-do Kyohan) has changed many aspects of katas since he returned to Japan to finish that book. They (SKA) no longer perform a side snap kick at all (smart) for example. They rotate and use a mae geri instead.

Not really. SKA generally refers to the pictures in Mr. Ohshima's translation of the Master Text as a reference point, i.e., if Im unsure about something I refer back to his translation and his pictures. More recently, this is supplemented by Mr. Ohshima's Notes on Training book. It uses his Master Text translation as a reference for his book and is purposefully designed as such. There are some changes since 1970 (e.g., speed of movement on the first 2 moves of heian Yodan) but not many.

Side snap kick is probably the biggest change...but we specifically dont rotate! to do this kick...we do mae geri to the side from Kibadachi with no rotation.

Of course, it is my understanding that Mr. Ohshima's translation is a synthesis (or selection!) of both the 1st and 2nd editions and that there were some other changes/editing also.

Don Lyons

dlyons

n2shotokai
5th March 2004, 01:28
I would agree with you. A friend of mine at SKA, a Yondan is my source. What I meant was some of the bunkai in the advanced kata is somewhat different which is reflected in the execution of the kata.

Dlyons
5th March 2004, 01:45
ah, the beauty and frustration of the bunkai within kata. Just when you think you know something (and perhaps one does) you are introduced (or you find) [to] a new understanding :-)
Don

Old Dragon
5th March 2004, 06:43
Quote:I think some karate guy thought 'hey it would be funny if i made my student do this plus it might help his balance problems out a little bit'. Choun no Kon does the same thing alot of forms do but you don't stay there and fight on one leg like in Chinto.




ED: first off Choun no Kun has the same moves..... but chinto teaches a different lesson. dont forget Choun no Kun is a weapons kata from Matioshi kobudo and the reason for the stance is very different.

Chinto teaches avoidance in that move, nobody said it had to teach a counter. When we look at kata everybody wants it to teach the "Easy bake oven recipe to self defence" In other words if the attacker punches me, I respond with 375 moves of death and destruction....of course he never gets to throw another punch does he???????????????


Sometimes in kata the lesson is to create and opening, to avoid an attack........ not necessarily to teach you for the 23 time how to counter. The first line of Seisan, or hangetsu,,,,, the lay out is bassicly the same in most styles, ends in a double upper block or strike. It teaches how to create an opening....... It gives it to you on a silver plater...... it then changes direction. Several times in the kata it does this.

Think of it this way. On Monday I show you how to straight punch, on Tuesday a reverse punch, on Wed I show you how to block,,,,,,, do I really need to show you how to counter at this point in time? Perhaps I hope that one day you will put all the lessons together yourself.

But the bottom line is this. In Isshin ryu, we dont do the gay thing........ we low block from a revers cat stance, (shorin ryu style of chinto) so you see "OUR BUNKAI" works hahahahhaha and it works no matter what side he throws the kick from. (sorry Gene.. just had to throw that one in.

Sorry If I have been a little humourous or even sarcastic. My thoughts are that by your comments Ed, you have put a limit on the kata, you have reached the final conclusion. From what little of what I know of some on this list, there is alot of years in experience. Those that have the time in seem to feel that kata is a wonderful thing and If they dont understand it they research and investigate it. My experience is that those that have only "1" way....... are still learning, and beleiveing that styles are right or wrong or better, thats politics. Something this little insignifigant guy on the west coast has seen far to much of.

NOTE: People hate to hear this but when I learned Choun no Kun, Iha Sensei also did bunkai. The kata was adjusted to accomodate bunkai and the changing of directions. His reasons were this. The kata is a string of techniques put together in such a manner as one person can practice them. When you put 2 people in the picture it is a drill, and not held to task as to "exactly" being the same. Many ryu will add or adjust a subtle move to allow for a change in direction or to make the drill "flow".

Accepting that you are not understanding kata is givein up. If you dont understand it try it with a partner and you will find that you were looking at it with the wrong glasses on. All kata work, of course you need to spend a lifetime practicing it........but that will come...... as sensei says...practice, practice, practice and when your all done that, practice some more.


Mike O'Leary

Gene Williams
5th March 2004, 11:34
I think the one legged move in GANKAKU was probably originally an avoidance move as discussed before that later became somewhat stylized. It makes sense...someone kicks at your leg or sweeps at you, you lift the leg to avoid (half your kick is made) then boom. I prefer the Kyan Chinto, as it has more obvious combat applications and is a little easier for me to make work. Gankaku is a tournament winner, though, if you are into that sort of thing;)

chizikunbo
5th March 2004, 18:02
does anyone know which is more original Naihanchi SHodan or Tekki Shodan, I was taught Naihanchi, and I like the bunkai, but it seems as if they are missing in the tekki kata?

chizikunbo
5th March 2004, 18:04
Originally posted by TimoS
I think all "versions" of Shotokan claim to be the only ones doing the original Funakoshi karate ;)
TRUE, it is probelbly one or two independent dojo, that are practicing the original kata, that is how it always ends up.

Gene Williams
5th March 2004, 19:39
Originally posted by chizikunbo
does anyone know which is more original Naihanchi SHodan or Tekki Shodan, I was taught Naihanchi, and I like the bunkai, but it seems as if they are missing in the tekki kata?

Naihanchi is the original kata, Tekki is the Japanese name.

chizikunbo
12th March 2004, 17:59
The constant snide remarks, style insults, my style is better than your style and the inevitable "your karate is wrong" is getting old.


Thank you
;)
Most every one here is a karateka, all martial arts have their good and bad points, this should not even have to be an issue
:toast:

chizikunbo
12th March 2004, 18:02
Originally posted by Gene Williams
Naihanchi is the original kata, Tekki is the Japanese name.

kungchido
25th March 2004, 20:39
Great book!!!

Miguel Amor
30th March 2004, 19:22
Good book for what it is. It was written by Funakoshi. But as a whole, the book is awful! The original book Tote Jutsu is much better. As far as material and kata explanations Nakayama's books (Dynamic Karate and the Best Karate series) are much better.