First hand experiences learning Ti?

[Timothy.G.B.]

I am curious if anyone out there is learning from a Sensei who teaches Ti?

If so, in your opinion, how is it different from waza, or bunkai, or kata, or kakie?

I am interested in open discussion because I have read authors, such as Mark Bishop or Patrick McCarthy writing about Ti, but I am curious about peoples' first hand experiences of learning what their Sensei calls "Ti".

Anyone willing to share their experience? I would be grateful :)

Tim Black

[Nyuck3X]

Gordon Doversola of southern California is the only one that
comes to mind state side. I found this link to him:
http://www.ntsworld.com/okinawa-te/default.htm

Most schools go by the Karate label now (though technically
still Okinawa-te or Uchinadi).

Good luck!

Peace

[Katsujinken]

Hi Tim,
I have done some Ti with Mark Bishop and his crowd and along with a few others in the UK.

Basically the interest in it stemmed from Bunkai, as you are probably aware many of the Kata's have grappling as well as striking techniques. A lot of Goju stylists got into this a few years back, but it isn't Goju as such. From a personal perspective I have always seen it as the Ju in Goju,but it underlies the kata's of all Okinawan Karate styles. Its integral to them. Basically what you end up with looks a bit like Aikido, but it isn't.

Mark Bishop does the Bugeikan version of Uehara's Motobu Ryu, and emphasises a lot of high stances.

Shian Toma and his crowd place emphasis on the Seidokan version of Motobu Ryu, and emphasises a lot of low stances, but its still grappling.


Regards

Chris Norman

[Timothy.G.B.]

I notice that after some time, and many views to this post, there have been only a couple of replies. I want to thank those of you who replied to my enquiries.


Sincerely,
Tim Black

[Old Dragon]

Tim.

I know a man, he is not famous, he is retired, a japanese who studied from an old Okinawan who lived in Japan.

I work with him a bit.

what do you want to know?

Mike O'leary

[Timothy.G.B.]

Hi Mike:

I have been in contact with Kogan Sensei, my teacher, and so I think I am already aware of the man you know. Thanks for your reply though!

Tim Black

[Old Dragon]

YUP>>>>>> thats him....... Say hi to your sensei for me.


Mike O'leary

[tsurutengu]

Tim,

I trained Okinawa Te under Gordon Doversola from 1964 until I moved North to Auburn California in 1994 (to far to commute for lessons). I continue to practice and keep in touch with him.

The Okinawa Te (under Doversola) system is unlike anything I have been able to uncover in the my searches over the last forty years. With the exception of books and articles, I haven't seen 'Ti'. The information in print that I have reviewed seems very similar to Shotokan. Although, chapter 8 of Mark Bishop's OKINAWAN KARATE has some familiar ring to the techniques I have learned.

The forms (kata) of Okinawa Te are considerably different than most I have seen. The first form is approximately 80 moves in duration (blinking your eyes or heart beats are not counted as moves), and more advance forms exceed well over 200 pieces. All the forms do not start or end in the same position and are not right/left symmetrical. The direction of travel, from a 'bird eye' view, does not follow a fixed pattern on the floor. Additionally, there is a large number of techniques that are joint locks, throws, or other types of 'take downs'. Probably the most significant and least understood facet of the forms is that they are not literal. The best analogy I have been able come up with is like a compressed file on a computer. You have to spend a lot time going over each piece of a form to get any practical application from them. I used to resent the work required but now I see the value of forcing a student to do the work examining each piece. Those that do the work get something from it, those that don't do the work, don't. Another way of looking at it is similar to algebra homework. The purpose of algebra homework is to teach algebraic principles and not rote identification of algebra problems.

The forms are organized like a set of encyclopedia. Each form is like a volume of the set with the first form ('Falling Leaf') acting like a condensed index. There are four basic categories (directions) radiating from the core form. The categories are hand, claw (animal), wood and iron. As you progress outward from the core it is possible to combine characteristics from adjacent categories (similar to the overlapping areas of a Venn diagram). For example: wood (Yawara or Bo) may be combined with iron (Sai) to produce a third weapon (Yari).

The circa 1960 to 1970 form requirements for a Black Belt was a minimum of five forms covering the above categories. Unfortunately the majority of students won't train for six to eight years to get a Black Belt. It's even worse now with 'competing schools' awarding Black Belts in some cases under eighteen months (we won't even touch on Black Belts who are five years of age). Some of the offshoot schools of Okinawa Te have one form as a Black Belt requirement. Oh well, it's still a (relatively) free country.

In addition to the above form requirements there is a large dose of supporting requirements. This would fall under three categories: basic fundamentals, self defense techniques, and sparring. The basic fundamentals are executed from a 'square' horse stance and include beginning punching, cutting, kicking, and movement. These are mixed and matched to form a sequence of drills referred to as Long Exercises. 'Long' in the sense of moving up and down the long axis of the training floor and grueling in duration. At this point it is probably good to point out that a 'forward stance' is not utilized. Generally the feet are kept within a few inches of a line thru you and your opponent. The feet may be rotated approximately 45 degrees from a square horse stance towards your opponents. The weight bias is generally 50/50 unless attacking with the back hand. Under this condition the weight shifts forward only for an instant during the attack.

Self defense techniques are divided into waza (defense against punching and kicking attacks), grab attack (all manner of grabbing), knife and club attacks, and mat work (throws, take downs and falling). The self defense techniques have three levels of execution. The first level follows what may be described as 'oriental' in the sense that a right hand punch includes the right foot stepping in. This is a 'laboratory' environment following a step by step tempo for safety reasons. The next level is executed spontaneously 'on the fly'. The final level is street application of technique thru both spontaneous timing and the lack of same foot same hand movement (more of a 'western' type of attack).

Sparring, early on, was rather rough. Other than a cup, protective equipment was nonexistent, and the cup was optional. 'Points' were awarded for only for contact. The degree of contact had a significant latitude (I don't think today's protective equipment has been any significant improvement).

Well I hope that answers some of your questions, at least as far as Okinawa Te as taught by Gordon Doversola.

Mark Galvin