PDA

View Full Version : Draeger and CMA



nicojo
19th February 2004, 18:32
Hello all,

This may not be the best forum to post this, and I am unsure what would be, but I suppose more people who know about Donn Draeger's biography and work check this forum periodically. If the moderator at large believes this may get more replies in a different forum, such as Sword arts or History and Culture, by all means please move it there. Thank you for your help.

Reading a certain article (http://www.koryubooks.com/library/rsmith1.html) by Robert Smith on Koryu.com has led me to believe that Donn Draeger had at least some familiarity with the Chinese Martial arts, specifically the "neija" (internal arts such as Tai Chi, Pakua, and Hsing Yi). However, in the book they co-wrote, Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts, Robert Smith is credited with the work on the section on China. Smith has written certain other books about CMA, but the titles I have seen are not as intentionally historical/"hoplological" as those that I have by Draeger, specifically the martial arts and ways of Japan series and "Indonesian Fighting arts." It seems that Draeger's focus and background was in fact much more in the Japanese/Okinawan/Indonesian/Filipino martial arts.

Here's the point/question, and thank you for your patience. Having become interested in hoplology and having trained in CMA for the past few years, I would like to know 1) What was Draeger's background in the CMA 2) Did he write any books about the CMA to the extent of his books about JMA/IMA and 3) Can a reader recommend a book or two that fill this gap, either by Draeger or someone else? I enjoy Draeger's writing, and the various articles on Koryu.com, but these are focused solely on JMA while the books by Smith and others I have seen about CMA do not take what I might refer to as a "hoplogical" approach. This approach is in my mind shown clearly in Draeger's work, the articles and books offered by koryu.com and Mr. and Ms. Skoss and the few articles I have read at this time by Mr. Svinth, Mr. Muromoto, Mr. Lowry, Mr. Amdur, Dr. Friday; and what I have seen on the International Hoplology Society website.

The books by Robert Smith that I am familiar with are Chinese Boxing: Masters and Methods, and Pakua. I have only leafed through them and surmised that they were a bit more like "how-to" books, but not historical. This is not to denigrate them by any means, but to point out that they didn't seem to be what I was looking for. I will take a closer look, although I have been spending money on other books lately. Smith's chapter on China in Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts is much more of what I would like to read, for example, though it is too brief. Thank you for your help.

don
20th February 2004, 00:02
Originally posted by nicojo
Donn Draeger had at least some familiarity with the Chinese Martial arts, specifically the "neija" (internal arts such as Tai Chi, Pakua, and Hsing Yi). However, in the book they co-wrote, Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts, Robert Smith is credited with the work on the section on China.

If memory serves, in his Martial Musings, Smith comments that Draeger realized the "superiority" of Chinese internal methods at one point in his career, but later renounced that insight to concentrate on JMA. Do a search on Donn F. Draeger on Amazon. He's got two books on CMA there.

Good luck.

Ellis Amdur
20th February 2004, 00:52
" If memory serves, in his Martial Musings, Smith comments that Draeger realized the "superiority" of Chinese internal methods at one point in his career, but later renounced that insight to concentrate on JMA"

I have a difficult time remembering the exact words in Martial Musings, because the man does go on and on and on and on. An editor should have taken a shotgun, fired a scatter shot, and and shot away a minimum of seventy five pages - any pages - without losing a single thought. (He is so woefully off the base in his discussion of BJJ in it's current form that it's ridiculous). His statements re Donn and CMA smack of a possessive turf war, that ill becomes him.

Donn had several years training in Bagua with Wang Shu Chin, he had a professional collaboration with teacher of 18 Lohan, of Phoenix Eye, and Shantung Black Tiger, which included training. He would go to Malaysia and train both weapon and unarmed forms with old school Chinese martial artists. In my correspondence with him, I would describe a form I had seen or was working on and would get back the equivalent of a Britainica entry - concise, pithy and erudite.

Donn, when collaborating with Smith, agreed on the turf in writing the Asian Martial Arts book, but Smith, in my opinion a rather defensive man who in some ways wished to be regarded as THE authority rather than merely a wonderful authority, was offended when Donn started publishing his own research. Additionally, if you read Smith, you find that he believed his teacher, Cheng Man Ch'ing was the greatest martial artist to walk the face of the earth. Donn disagreed, and also pointed out that he could find no independent evidence of Ch'ing ever in a real match/fight.

In Smith's book, he claimed that he tried to set up a "match" with Cheng, and Donn demurred and then he psychologizes that Donn here met his limit - that he couldn't conceive of, or grasp or approach the power of the "soft." Interestingly, Donn and I in the '70s had a conversation about just this subject. Now understand that at that time, Donn, in his early 50's, I believe, could still squat with 400+ pounds, that he was flexible as a ballet dancer and could, according to John Bluming's own account, beat Bluming in newaza in judo.

He told me that "Robert is after me to cross hands with Cheng men Ching. What am I supposed to do? Go easy on a fragile old man and enhance his reputation or beat up a fragile old man and damage mine? So Robert said I should check out X (- I can't remember the name -), a leading student of Ching's in Malaysia, who used to do White Crane, that he was the man I should go through if I wanted Ching. So I did"

(Amdur - "How did you do?" - NOTE: This was not a conversation between equals - I was a young kid, comparitively, and he was kindly hanging out with me and showing me a few of the ropes, so to speak)

Draeger - "The man could push, I'll give him that. I must have gone twenty feet back . . . but I had a hold of his jacket as I went and I rolled over in a tomoenage and choked him out."

Donn and I continued, him saying that he had upmost respect for Bagua and Hsing i as wonderful "civilian fighting arts." He said that hsing i fighters were the only ones who were generally successful in the full-contact, limited rules fights in East Asia (Incidentally, he confined the word "martial" for fighting arts that were created and functioned on the battlefield. Used to make people froth at the mouth when he'd say, "aikido-karate-judo-wu shu . . . is not a martial art, it's a civilian fighting art.') He continued that he never thought t'ai chi was more than a pseudo fighting art/exercise, and that is all he ever saw in Hong Kong/Taiwan, etc.

But then he met some groups in Malaysia, really old school - describing one that did a fast push hands coupled with round house and ax kicks at full speed, the practitioners young Chinese-Malaysian's well over 240 pounds, and also the "Butcher" - that's how he made his living. (Other guys who were there described a friendly sparring match between these two where they totally trashed the Butcher's room, including one of them ripping out a sink and throwing it at the other. - perhaps hyperbole, but that's the kind of stories that SHOULD be told about Donn, not Smith's very subtle, self-aggrandizing patronization of his deceased good friend. Donn Draeger couldn't appreciate the power of the soft, my a**.

I think the best way to describe Donn was that any school he joined, ANY martial art group, immediately became better. His presence and the demands he made on himself had such power that everyone there pulled out the best from himself. Otherwise you'd be ashamed to be training next to him - not what he said - he drew you up just because of who he was.

Thus, if Donn had HONORED Cheng Men Ching by joining his association, it would in that manner become far stronger, just because he was there. It was not Donn Draeger's loss that he did not spar with Cheng, did not join his group, it was Cheng's loss..

Respectfully

Ellis Amdur

Bustillo, A.
20th February 2004, 01:19
Originally posted by Ellis Amdur
" But then he met some groups in Malaysia, really old school - describing one that did a fast push hands coupled with round house and ax kicks at full speed, the practitioners young Chinese-Malaysian's
Respectfully

Ellis Amdur


There is documentation where Draeger recommneds a man named
Cheong Cheng Leong from Malaysia. Perhaps this one of the names he mentioned.

Ellis Amdur
20th February 2004, 02:28
Cheong is the master teacher of Phoenix Eye. Not only does Draeger have a book on his work (collaboration) but so does Cheong.

Funny story: Donn and some associates, all practitioners of koryu (mostly jo), visited one tough Malaysian-Chinese school, and asked the translator to say, "We are honored to be here. If it pleases all of you, we will demonstrate some of our weapon-based training and then, if you'd be so kind, would you demonstrate some of your empty handed art which I've heard such wonderful things."

The translator "repeated" this, and all of a sudden the mood changed, like a Run Run Shaw flick - everyone drew themselves up, and you could almost hear the bad HongKong dubbing, with the mouth movements three seconds behind - "So, sport, you think your blue goose kung fu is a match for my white plum blossom. We'll see about that, chappie. Let's have a go" Donn whispered, "what did you say?" and the translator whispered back, "what you told me. We'd like to test our weapons against your empty handed art."
Donn was able to get everyone to pause, got it slowly retranslated, and all was smiles.

best

Ellis Amdur

Joseph Svinth
20th February 2004, 04:00
Have you seen the DD bibliography at http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsenablers.htm ? It isn't complete, not by a long shot, but it should get you started. As for editing RWS more tightly, let's just say that he wasn't really receptive to that idea.

Meanwhile, for state of the art CMA research, I suggest starting with Stan Henning's articles. Besides his chapter in "Martial Arts in the Modern World" and entries in "Martial Arts of the World: An Encyclopedia," he has also published articles in "Journal of Asian Martial Arts" and "China Review International." The latter article, "Academia Encounters the Chinese Martial Arts" (Fall 1999, 6:2:319-332) is very good. For an online sample of his material, see http://www.nardis.com/~twchan/henning.html . You might also want to look at Anthony Morris's 1998 dissertation, "Cultivating the National Body: A History of Physical Culture in Republican China," Esherick's book on the Boxer rebellion, and Naquin's books on Qing Dynasty millenarianism.

Websites to check include:

* http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma
* http://www.neijia.org
* http://www.pa-kua-chang.com/tung.htm
* http://www.shenwu.com
* http://web.singnet.com.sg/~limttk
* http://mapage.cybercable.fr/afsj (in French)

Islamic influences on the CMA are harder to document than are the influences of Buddhism, Taoism, and the YMCA. This is unfortunate, too, because there are lots more Muslims in China than there are in the Middle East, and Hui MA practitioners are everywhere. Websites to check include:

* http://glory.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi-e/statyi/mosl.html
* http://www.mubai.cc/articles.htm

Daniel Lee
20th February 2004, 05:02
Thanks for sharing those episodes and experiences about Draeger, Ellis. It's great to hear more about what the man was like.

gabro
20th February 2004, 08:04
I thought I hear rumors about a a Draeger biography being written and planned published. Has anyone else heard this?
Or did I listen too closely to the Voices again ?;)

Mads

nicojo
20th February 2004, 21:40
Thank you all for the responses. Here are mine back to you:


Do a search on Donn F. Draeger on Amazon. He's got two books on CMA there. I had done a search of his books before posting, but only noticed the ones with solo authorship. So knowing that he did indeed write other texts with joint authorship/collaboration, as well as the bibliography from Ejmas, will help me out quite a bit. Thanks.

As usual, Mr. Svinth has supplied a great amount of sources with apparantly little or no difficulty. Always impressive. I really wish I had more time to spend on and I will certainly follow up on these. If I may press, do you know of some research on the opera river-boats of Mainland China, if it is not contained in the sources you mention? Not quite the school that Jackie Chan "attended" but a generation or so earlier. It would be interesting to read or write about Chinese martial artists who have moved to the Northwest, those who came from this and other traditions. Also those who emigrated from Taiwan and the Nationalist army. Two teachers of my teachers fit this description.


...he had upmost respect for Bagua and Hsing i as wonderful "civilian fighting arts."...(Incidentally, he confined the word "martial" for fighting arts that were created and functioned on the battlefield. Used to make people froth at the mouth when he'd say, "aikido-karate-judo-wu shu . . . is not a martial art, it's a civilian fighting art.')...

Interesting distinction, and factually true I suppose, but one that I'm not sure how to take. It is probably the sort of thing that would still make certain people froth at the mouth, though I personally am thinking the following:
1.Given his military career, he was thus defining his own interest in those arts that had more military functionalism/history.
2.Given his extensive background and interest in bagua, as you say, as well as judo, karate and other gendai arts, he had a sincere appreciation of "civilian fighting arts" but felt that they were not to be appreciated in quite the same way. Different "arts" for different purposes.
3.He liked to razz people a bit.


He continued that he never thought t'ai chi was more than a pseudo fighting art/exercise, and that is all he ever saw in Hong Kong/Taiwan, etc.

This reminds me of a certain line in Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts:
It is fact that most iai-jutsu ryu stand firmly against the changing styandards; they do not accept iai-do, which they see as only an old man's "game" shorn of combat values. pg. 104 in my edition.

Lest this be construed as some sort of tossed match igniting the dead and dry twigs of do/jutsu controversy, let me just say that Tai-chi impresses me as being a bit too diverse, and so too Iaido, to have such a definitive judgement laid on it, and that in my opinion, while one certainly sees tai-chi and iaido devoid of any combat effectiveness (and to some, therefore, of any point) this varies from place to place within the umbrella of the art. Different "arts" for different purposes. Perhaps it goes without saying.

Nevertheless, given the scope of Draeger's research and travel, and obvious expertise, his view is to be respected, for me especially as you imply that he revised it somewhat with his experience in Malaysia. Clarify my thinking as you see fit, please.

So thank you all for responding thus far, especially Mr. Amdur, and by all means continue with more stories, or implore on e-budo's behalf the contributions of Meik and Diane Skoss, and others who may have similar great stories about him that they may wish to share.

Or everyone just write them up, if you haven't already begun to do so.

Thanks again,

Joseph Svinth
21st February 2004, 03:57
LtCol Bristol was working on a biography of DD. Then he got a job as head of the Marine Corps Martial Art program, and after that, he got a job as commander of the Recon battalion out of Okinawa. Thus, for the past five years or so, he hasn't had a lot of free time to devote to research projects.

***

Although there are a reasonable number of Chinese in the Northwest today, there were not a lot of Chinese in the Northwest from the 1880s through the 1960s. The reason was that organized labor was strongly opposed to them.

Something you will find, however, are mentions of Asians in Western boxing and wrestling. Of the Chinese, Sacramento's George Lee is probably the best known, but there were Chinese and Japanese boxers in San Francisco from the 1880s, and Filipinos from the early 1900s. Asians were not limited to just the West Coast, either, as the fellow who demonstrated judo at Chicago's 1904 Socialist Party presidential convention was a future leader of the Japanese Communist party then living in Texas, and Mitsuya Maeda was wrestling in Georgia and the Carolinas around 1908.

***

On Asian theater, the best one-volume intro that I've seen is Martin Banham, ed., "Cambridge Guide to World Theatre."

coyote
23rd February 2004, 07:44
the man does go on and on and on and on. An editor should have taken a shotgun, fired a scatter shot, and and shot away a minimum of seventy five pages
I agree and the literary quotations he uses so often are quite boring sometimes.


In Smith's book, he claimed that he tried to set up a "match" with Cheng, and Donn demurred
In the book Smith talks about tests: "turning his arm over while preventing the other from doing the same to him" or "he would trade chops on the other's arm".
Of course, those skills can't prove that he could fight, they could only prove that he had some special skills.



So Robert said I should check out X (- I can't remember the name -), a leading student of Ching's in Malaysia, who used to do White Crane, that he was the man I should go through if I wanted Ching. So I did
I believe that was probably Huang Hsing Hsien. In an interview in Nigel Sutton website, Master Koh Ah Tee says about his push-hands experience with him: "When I was pushing hands with Huang Hsing Hsien and he was unable to push me over he started to hit me. I ponted out to him that this was dangerous and that I too could do the same to him"..."I pushed hands with Huang and although I have heard people say that pushing hands with him was like being uprooted by an iron bar, I would have to say that this is nonsense"... "All of the people present heard Huang admit that his skill was 70%White Crane. They also heard his response when I asked him why he didn't teach White Crane exclusively. His reply was that it was easier to make money with taijiquan." (http://www.zhong-ding.com/kat2.htm)



if you read Smith, you find that he believed his teacher, Cheng Man Ch'ing was the greatest martial artist to walk the face of the earth. Donn disagreed, and also pointed out that he could find no independent evidence of Ch'ing ever in a real match/fight.
I think Smith said in JAMA the Cheng was the greatest that he ever met, and he met a lot of people including the famous Hong Yixiang that I believe you recognize as very skilled. So, if Smith put Cheng above so many there must be a reason for it. What Draeger says in his letters is that "If you thing Cheng’s stuff is good, remember that his successes against all comers probably comes from his earlier Yang studies, not his new style". Needless to say that most yang tai chi practioners can't fight at all. As for Cheng's new style, there are seniors students like William Chen and Ben Lo that can fight, and in Ben Lo case he studied only the Cheng style. I admit that they are exceptions, but it's also true that few people trained as hard as they did.

Ellis Amdur
23rd February 2004, 13:32
I met Ben Lo, and thought he was wonderful. William Chen (who integrated elements of Western boxing in his art) was reported to also be quite good. I've seen films of Cheng and again, he looks to be a remarkable man - and all the accounts of his students substantiate this. I've talked with individuals who claimed that they beat Cheng in push-hands, but one thing I found among Chinese martial artists - at least those I met from Taiwan is a pretty common deprecation of their compatriots.

In sum, I have no idea how good Cheng was. I have personally met some t'ai chi practitioners (Feng Zhi Zhiang, - Chen style - for one) who left me awkstruck. I have not agreed with Donn's rather brusque dismissal of the t'ai chi he saw before his trips to Malyasia. However, in regards to the people he did observe, his skills were so far above mine that he was evaluating from a very different perspective. If I were to enter the ring with a Golden Gloves boxer, after getting beaten pillar to post, I might leave saying, "He's really good." Roy Jones would not.

See, when I had that discussion with Donn and he dismissed t'ai chi, I asked, "What about Wang Shu Chin?" and that was when he said, "He's a bagua and xingyi man who teaches some t'ai chi." Then going on to tell wonder-tales about the man.

It simply angers me that Smith engages, in subtle fashion, in that same kind of deprecation of one he called a friend, using him to further inflate the reputation of a teacher to whom he has an almost religious devotion, at Donn's expense. And that this, rather than Donn's many achievements and fine character become a subject of public discourse.

With respect

Ellis Amdur

Steven Malanosk
23rd February 2004, 14:32
I literally grew up reading Draeger's works throughout the 60s and 70s and have always held him in iconoclastic status. However it was nice to read in MUSINGS, some personal and more human facts and episodes of Drager's life and persona.

I totally agree that many, many of the things that Smith said in his book where less than kind, on many people. He is a curmudgeon and a pedantic to understate for lack of a better term, but those who have been around for so long, and have done so much, can usually get away with this, especially if they are giving you their honest opinion. I may not want to hear some of the things this type of individual says, but none the less, respect the opinion.

This of course does not go for the individuals with little knowledge and minimum back ground that have a tendancy to pop up and second guess The Don in their rantings. They for the most part have yet to earn that priviledge.

I just hope that after I am dead, there will be a noteworthy person who will still feel threatened enough by my superior image, to feel the need to occaisionally mention how full of crap I was at times.

Ellis Amdur
23rd February 2004, 18:46
Steven -

That made me laugh a lot. True - the quality of our enemies is the measure of us. I always was struck when travelling in Taiwan that the one man that every tough teacher would claim to have beaten to inflate his own reputation was Wang Shu Chin.

Appropos Wang. When in Japan, he taught his adaptation of Chen Pan Ling's Synthetic t'ai chi form, and would, for his more advanced students, select either xingyi or bagua. For Donn, he chose bagua, and thought well enough of him that he actually had him do the traditional tree circling for two years - no form - he simply had to circle round the tree for several hours every morning, until he'd dug a trench with his feet (or, in the most tradition mythos, the tree would begin to topple). Donn said Wang would walk up, look at the track scuffed in the soil around the tree, and say "not deep enough" and then pursue Donn around the tree in a game of tag, panther pursued by Leviathan, the former always caught.

And one day, Wang visited Donn at his small home, and in the conversation, said to him, "Your trouble is you have insufficient control of your body," reached over and picked up a meteorite, the size of a shotput that Donn used for a paperweight. He took a pose on one leg, extended his arm straight out and held the meteorite, palm DOWN, for ten minutes, immobile, then shifted to his mirror image and did it again for another ten.

Perhaps the greatest mark of Wang's reported power was this. Some of you may know the immense torii at Meiji shrine. Donn stated that Wang went up to it, and shook it so it swayed.

P.S. I studied with Wang for a few months, shortly before his death, when he was very ill - barely able to shuffle his feet. I saw him do his famous belly bump on a top level Kyokushinkai competitor, a rock-solid man, whom, on invitation, threw a punch which Wang swayed aside, embraced him and hugged while simultaneously smashing him with his belly. The man staggered back, breath completely knocked out of him. Not bad at all for a man literally at death's door.

P.P.S. - Smith does tell some very fine stories of Donn. They were friends, and his book is, aside from all else, a treasure trove of stories and personalities. I'm not going to critique it anymore - having said my piece. Time permitting, I may post some more on Donn. I was not one of his inner circle of friends - just someone who knew him a little and admired him immeasurably.

Ellis Amdur
www.ellisamdur.com

Joshua Lerner
23rd February 2004, 19:16
Originally posted by Ellis Amdur
In sum, I have no idea how good Cheng was. I have personally met some t'ai chi practitioners (Feng Zhi Zhiang, - Chen style - for one) who left me awkstruck...See, when I had that discussion with Donn and he dismissed t'ai chi, I asked, "What about Wang Shu Chin?" and that was when he said, "He's a bagua and xingyi man who teaches some t'ai chi." Then going on to tell wonder-tales about the man.

I just thought I'd add that although Feng Zhiqiang's system is, fundamentally, the Chen Taijiquan system he learned from Chen Fake, a significant portion of Feng's training, and a large portion of what he teaches as the internal aspect of his system, comes from the style of Liu He Xing Yi he learned from Hu Yaozhen. Feng places a relatively strong emphasis on stationary standing practice (as did Wang Shujin, from what I hear), and on qigong practices that he learned from Hu. There are also standing practices in styles that are strictly based on Chen style, but the ones that Feng teaches are more from Hu's Liu He Xing Yi, as far as I know.

I think there is also some Bagua influence in Feng's style, and he does teach a *little* Xing Yi and Bagua as supplements to Chen style. He doesn't do that to any great extent, to my knowledge, but with some of his students.

Sorry for the thread drift.

George Kohler
23rd February 2004, 19:19
Originally posted by Ellis Amdur
I was not one of his inner circle of friends - just someone who knew him a little and admired him immeasurably.


Mr. Amdur,

If I may ask, who were his inner circle of friends?

Ben Bartlett
23rd February 2004, 19:57
Originally posted by Ellis Amdur
Time permitting, I may post some more on Donn. I was not one of his inner circle of friends - just someone who knew him a little and admired him immeasurably.

Ellis Amdur
www.ellisamdur.com
I hope you do! I knew Draeger had a reputation as a great martial artist, and as being one of the first Westerners to look seriously into Eastern martial traditions (and of course, I have read some of his books), but, well, wow.

Ellis Amdur
23rd February 2004, 21:01
Joshua -

I have studied Chen t'ai chi with Mrs. Gao Fu, one of Feng's most exemplary students, and have in MY circle of friends, some who are very close to Feng. The lovely story about Feng is this - Chen Fake and Hu Yaozhen were close friends, and they got to talking one day and mused what they could create if they found a very strong young man and gave him, together, all the knowledge they possessed. Feng was the young man they chose.

George -
I don't know all of Donn's circle, only some, because he had friends from different generations and different countries. I don't think it would be my place to start naming names - it is theirs to step forward in whatever way, and whatever venue they choose.

Best

Ellis Amdur

Joshua Lerner
23rd February 2004, 22:42
Originally posted by Ellis Amdur
The lovely story about Feng is this - Chen Fake and Hu Yaozhen were close friends, and they got to talking one day and mused what they could create if they found a very strong young man and gave him, together, all the knowledge they possessed. Feng was the young man they chose.

Ellis,

It is a lovely story.

Take care,

Josh

Joseph Svinth
24th February 2004, 05:31
If you are truly in search of DD, then, as the Honorable Elijah Muhammad taught us, "Do your research."

Considerable work needs to be done in the area of documenting DD before 1954. For that, you'd probably need to be in Wisconsin, reading old newspapers and school yearbooks. Once that information is obtained, then you can start requesting military records and researching veterans' groups.

About 1953, DD got stationed in Washington, DC, where he became very active in promoting judo. He was occasionally mentioned in wire service stories in newspapers, some of which are available online, and he wrote a bunch of articles for "Strength and Health," which was the York Barbell Company rag in those days. York Barbell hasn't responded to two requests to reprint, but you can find back issues at libraries here and there; I believe the Todd-McLean Collection at UT Austin has the complete archives. See http://www.edb.utexas.edu/Todd-McLean/index.htm . DD also wrote regularly for "Judo Illustrated." I have some of the articles, and others are online. Library of Congress has at least one issue, but I don't know if all of them made it there. But there are a lot more; I just haven't seriously looked. There are also mentions in Black Belt, Judo Ontario publications, the Ishikawa/Foos publications, etc.

While reading, make lists of the the people he knew. Names that come to mind include RW Smith, Jon Bluming, Howard Alexander, Quintin Chambers, Mike Belzer, and Hunter Armstrong. Then read everything they published. More stories appear. Also read the writings of people with whom he was associated, such as Eiichi Koiwai

As you go along, do what Ellis noted, namely pay attention to generational differences -- they matter. Also keep track of everything, using either file cards or a chronological text file, to include when, where, and how you got this information. Footnote, in other words.

In the process, a story will emerge.

Then, after you've done the preliminary work listed here (I have not), you start writing people, asking for both new stories and external corroboration of previously published material.

***

BTW, according to the Portland Oregonian of Feb 13, 2004:

"Sumo wrestling, the national sport of Japan, is celebrated in high style and given its weighty justice at the Seattle Art Museum with a selection of prints and footage of modern tournaments. "Larger-Than-Life Heroes: Prints of Sumo Wrestling From the Donn F. Draeger Collection" gathers prints from the collection of this scholar and martial artist. Opens Saturday at the Seattle Art Museum."

Billy Bob says check it out.

br_tengu
24th February 2004, 05:42
Ellis Amdur wrote:

Donn, when collaborating with Smith, agreed on the turf in writing the Asian Martial Arts book, but Smith, in my opinion a rather defensive man who in some ways wished to be regarded as THE authority rather than merely a wonderful authority, was offended when Donn started publishing his own research.

I read the book and although I liked, I think that the Chinese part lacked some better social-historical perspective. I agree that Smith is sometimes too defensive in Martial Musings and in other articles, particularly when he tries to defend Ch’ing. On the other side I have to tell you that I think that your post was a little bit defensive too. Smith is very outspoken and although I think this is good, it also generates a lot of controversies and he sometimes issues opinions without proper research on the subject. I think that you are also very outspoken Mr. Amdur, and to tell you the truth this is one of the reasons why I like your books very much. Another reason is that you write about your our experiences in a very straightforward manner, putting yourself in the picture, exposing yourself in a way that requires some courage to do. This way of writing is very refreshing, because it makes the reading much more interesting, much more alive. There’s always the risk of becoming a little condescending when writing this way, but I think you were able to avoid this most of times pretty well.


I have personally met some t'ai chi practitioners (Feng Zhi Zhiang, - Chen style - for one) who left me awkstruck
I think most of us have already heard stories of such and such masters doing incredible things and in many cases the whole thing turned out to be just nonsense. I consider you a very down-to-earth person that has seen a lot and that wouldn’t be impressed easily. So, I wonder if you could share with us some stories of people that impressed you like Feng Zhi Zhiang and Ben Lo.


Sincerely,
reinaldo yamauchi

Joshua Lerner
24th February 2004, 06:29
Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
***BTW, according to the Portland Oregonian of Feb 13, 2004:

"Sumo wrestling, the national sport of Japan, is celebrated in high style and given its weighty justice at the Seattle Art Museum with a selection of prints and footage of modern tournaments. "Larger-Than-Life Heroes: Prints of Sumo Wrestling From the Donn F. Draeger Collection" gathers prints from the collection of this scholar and martial artist. Opens Saturday at the Seattle Art Museum."
Billy Bob says check it out.

Anyone interested in a Sunday field trip in March? I'll start a thread in the member's lounge.

Ellis Amdur
24th February 2004, 13:16
Mr. Yamauchi - As for what left me awkstruck, I'm not talking about magic. Simply wonderful body mechanics. I visited Ben Lo's school shortly before I left for Japan. He was doing t'ai chi and lowered his body so that his hips were below knee-level, his shins vertical and he had me feel his calves which were absolutely relaxed. From there, he continued to move with fluidity. He maintained the same fluidity in his push-hands.

As for Feng, what left me awkstruck was his massive power (he is a giant of a man, not in height so much as thickness) - a bull of a man, which bushy eyebrows, a deep laugh, hands big enough to encompass a head and he could move so gracefully, and so fast. Grizzly bear t'ai chi with sudden explosions of power with no wind-up.

I've never seen any empty force, any chi projection, any invulnerable bodies. Just wonderful physical organization.

I can't remember the author, but he wrote two very charming little books about Cheng Man Ching. In one of them, he describes Ching, then living in NY announcing that he'd taken up bowling for a few weeks, but quit because he found even the smallest ball too heavy for him. His students were momentarily astonished, because he was able to throw/project them, many well over 200 pounds flying thru the air to crash into the wall. As I recall the story, Ching laughed, saying something to the effect that he isn't lifting anything with his students - he just helps them throw themselves, but a bowling ball - that's just heavy.

Ellis Amdur

Cady Goldfield
24th February 2004, 15:34
I recall reading that delightful story about Ching. That tale pretty much encapsulates what "it's" all about.

Many years ago, I met a Chinese practitioner of an old taiji tradition. He was a small man, wiry but not bulky. With a touch he was able to throw men twice his weight across the kwoon (dojo). I thought it was a parlor trick until he did it to me, too. It wasn't until I found my current martial discipline that I saw this duplicated and learned to do it myself. Certainly not as masterfully, but well enough to recognize it for what it is and what it can do.

Yes, it is not magic, but perfectly aligned body mechanics, as Ellis says. Doing it well just makes it look - and feel - like magic. But then, so does anything done well.

Jack B
24th February 2004, 17:42
Originally posted by Ellis Amdur
I can't remember the author, but he wrote two very charming little books about Cheng Man Ching. In one of them, he describes Ching, then living in NY announcing that he'd taken up bowling for a few weeks, but quit because he found even the smallest ball too heavy for him. His students were momentarily astonished, because he was able to throw/project them, many well over 200 pounds flying thru the air to crash into the wall. As I recall the story, Ching laughed, saying something to the effect that he isn't lifting anything with his students - he just helps them throw themselves, but a bowling ball - that's just heavy.
Would that be Wolfe Lowenthal's There Are No Secrets and Gateway to the Miraculous?

br_tengu
24th February 2004, 21:48
Jack Bieler wrote:


Would that be Wolfe Lowenthal's There Are No Secrets and Gateway to the Miraculous?

That's the author, the brief mention to bowling is in There Are No Secrets.


And thanks for answering my question Ellis. Maybe you should think about writing a book about all those interesting people you met in your martial arts journey. I'm sure you must have lots of stories and anecdotes to tell.


Sincerely,
reinaldo yamauchi

Finny
26th February 2004, 09:32
Amen - I love hearing these sorts of tales... particularly from someone who tells it like it is.

Michael Becker
3rd March 2004, 23:51
I never could quite understand R.W. Smith's devotion to Cheng Manching. In an interview with Nigel Sutton some years back, a senior disciple of Cheng's, Tan Ching Ngee, stated Cheng never taught the advnaced aspects of his art to non-Chinese. Certainly Cheng's most advanced students dont seem to emphasis the 'soft' approach as much as Smith, or other western students of his generaltion, do.

The fundamental key to making the so called 'internal' arts of ba gua, hsing i and tai chi chuan work is the practice of neikung. This consists of exercises that are static, like the aforementioned standing practices, but also moving methods as well. Some of the moving exercises also have fighting applications.

Unlike many of the popular chi kung routines, a regimen of neikung exercises is not at all easy to perform. The legs in particular are worked very hard. Some of the end results are as follows.

A highly developed sense of co-ordination, much as you would expect from thousands of repetitions of movements using full body motion. An ability to issue strikes or pushes with little or no 'wind-up'. The ability to take strikes to the body without injury, including having someone drop from 6 feet onto the abdomen.

At a basic level, neikung training is physical conditioning, but of a specialised and sophisticated nature. Anyone who claims to practice a fighting art understands how important physical conditioning is. There is also a theraputic aspect to some of the exercises, and they can help certain injuries and illnesses.

I wont get into 'chi' here, since it has already been discussed to death elsewhere. People can make up their own minds. Myself I have experienced enough not to have any doubts and will say no more on the matter.

The 'power of the soft'? :rolleyes: . Putting it simply, the 'soft' is the evasion or redirection aspect of the art. Tai chi chuan has a variety of striking, throwing, grappling and locking techniques that are anything but soft. Many of them are vicious and nasty and designed to kill, maim or at the least quickly incapacitate an attacker.

Another myth spread by some tai chi chuan instructors is the idea that it takes at least 10 years to gain any functional ability in the art, (mastery is of course an entirely different matter). As an example, I once spent five minutes instructing a former work collegue on the method and principle behind one of the fighting applications of tai chi chuan. That was it. A week later he came back to me with a big grin on his face. Someone had attacked him outside of a pub and he had knocked them over a bench with the technique. Not bad for someone maybe 5'4'' and 140 pounds. One of my teachers, Dan Docherty, won a prestigious full contact tournament in Asia after training for six years in tai chi chuan.

Anyway, I'm going on and on here and that wasnt the purpose of the thread. I'd like to recommend two books on tai chi chuan that contain some 'meat' instead of the usual fluffy verbage.

The first is 'Complete Tai Chi Chuan' by the aforementioned Dan Docherty, ISBN 1-86126-033-4 . This one offers the best overview of the art I have seen in the English language. The information is clear and instructive and not laden with vague or mystical references.

Dan is the man who taught me the little I know of tai chi chuan. In 1980 he won the Open Weight division at the 5th South East Asian Chinese Pugilistic Championship in Malaysia. He also served for 9 years in the Royal Hong Kong Police where he had the opportunity to apply the practical aspect of the art.

His website is www.taichichuan.co.uk and is well worth a look if only to read through his articles that have been published over the years in various magazines. He is fluent in Cantonese and Manderin and also reads the language, which gives him a rare insight into the art and the culture surrounding it.

As an intresting aside, R.W. Smith was once so incensed by an interview that Dan gave for 'Fighting Arts International' that he insisted the publisher remove his name from the list of contributors. There is a review of 'Martial Musings' by Dan on his site, along with the offending article, ('Tai Chi Gladiator').

BTW, Dan's only art is tai chi chuan and it is the only martial art he has practiced since 1974.

The second book is 'Wu Style Taijiquan' by Wang Peisheng and Zeng Weiqi, ISBN 962-238-015-8. It depicts realistic-and accurate-fighting applications from the Wu style. Amazon.com lists this book as being unavailable but they are wrong, since it can be found with a little looking around. I saw it for sale in Foyles in London recently, and there are a couple of places on the internet that sell it.

Wang is possibly the foremost living authority on Wu style tai chi chuan. He has established himself as a fighter and teacher, though he is now over 85 years of age. Wang's teacher, Yang Yuting, was the instructor to the last Emperor of China. Yang's teacher, Wang Maozhai was the senior disciple of Quan You, the founder of Wu style tai chi chuan. Yang was his senior disciple, and Wang Peisheng was, and is, Yang's senior disciple.

Wang also studied several other arts and also teaches them, including ba gua, hsing i and tong bei. The website of his American students is http://www.geocities.com/ycgf/YCGF.htm .

For anyone looking for an in depth interview regarding ba gua and the role of neikung in its training, see

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/bagua/machuanxu.html

Apologies for going on as much. I hope there is some information of intrest here. Off to bed now as I have work in 6 hours...

nicojo
7th March 2004, 22:14
Ellis Amdur wrote:
Donn and I continued, him saying that he had upmost respect for Bagua and Hsing i as wonderful "civilian fighting arts." He said that hsing i fighters were the only ones who were generally successful in the full-contact, limited rules fights in East Asia (Incidentally, he confined the word "martial" for fighting arts that were created and functioned on the battlefield. Used to make people froth at the mouth when he'd say, "aikido-karate-judo-wu shu . . . is not a martial art, it's a civilian fighting art.

The more I have been thinking about this distinction, "civilian fighting arts," the more I have come to appreciate it in the last few weeks since I started the thread. Initially I was a bit wary because I feel that sometimes we jump at the chance to use certain distinctions unecessarily such as gendai/koryu, internal/external, iaido/iaijutsu, to name a few I've been tumbled into. This isn't to say these distinctions are purely western, purely modern, purely unhelpful or purely anything; it is to say that for me these have drawn more of my focus to the word or concept instead of the training...

But Draeger's distinction of "civilian fighting arts" works for me right now, in part because it resonates with something Dave Lowry wrote in Traditions that I read just a week ago:
Remember that bu refers not specifically to "combat" or "fighting but to that which is related to the military or martial caste of old Japan. Okinawan karate was never an art of the warrior class. It was a method of fighting practicied by Ryukyuans, most of them farmers or fishermen. It is, in origin and intent, a civilian method of self-defense...To affix the connotation of "civil" rather than "military" (or "martial") to an art like karate is not a comment on the effectiveness or value of karate. Most of the combative arts of mainland China, kungfu, tai chi cuan, and the like are, as well, civilian in their origins. Recognizing that karate is an art used by non-military people does not discredit it at all. It merely places karate in its proper perspective as a fighting art. p.58

Certainly for the majority of you this is obvious, olde newse, and perhaps not worth the time to read a page of my own personal thoughts, but...maybe it interests someone else.

Certain of these distinctions are useful for the practitioner, some are more useful for the academic, but it is nice to cross a few converging paths like this. But you already knew that ;)

Later,

Joseph Svinth
7th March 2004, 22:35
All unarmed martial arts are essentially civil in nature, as soldiers and robbers operate under their own rules of engagement, and almost always have access to weapons. Most armed martial arts are essentially civil, too, at least as practiced today. That is, they may have been battlefield arts in 1640 (or 1940), but today, they are essentially recreation. Practitioners take offense at this observation, however, because in their Walter Mitty fantasies, they envision themselves the world's deadliest fighting men rather than middle-aged fat men with a hobby.

For an introduction to the topic, talk to the wives of said deadly fighting men, or read "Some Motivations Involved in Martial Arts Training" at http://ejmas.com/svinth1.htm ; "Social Uses of the Martial Arts," in _Martial Arts of the World: An Encyclopedia_ (ABC-CLIO, 2001) 2:532-538, and my essay, "Where We Go From Here" in _Martial Arts in the Modern World_ (Greenwood, 2003), 271-274.

Michael Becker
8th March 2004, 00:39
I'd like to echo the sentiments of Joseph Svinth's post.

I remember a tai chi 'brother' commenting to me during one class that he thought that most westerners took up martial arts because they had some sort of 'chip on their shoulder'. I've seen plenty of evidence to support that idea, myself included in my 'angry young man with chip on shoulders' days. I like to think I've gotten older and wiser leading to calmer personality, rather than any reduction in the testosterone levels ;) .

I do think that the 'chip on the shoulder' idea goes a long way to explaining the need for a person believe that they are doing the 'ultimate martial art'. Just look at the fads that have prevailed over the years. 'Jujitsu' at the turn of the last century, judo in the 1950's, followed by karate, then kung fu...ninjutsu...pencak silat...Gracie jujutsu...etc,etc.

I remember the comic book ads, whereby a boy had the choice of attaining manhood via a Charles Atlas course, a Count Dante course, or a pair of ACME cowboy boots, (am I going senile or didnt OJ Simpson endorse them?)

My point is that some people get far to much hung up on the mental crutch of doing what they envisage to be the ultimate system. People are far better served by simply doing what works for them.

If the combat warrior thing wasnt enough, there is the whole 'way of life', spiritual practice business that is often sold as an excuse for doing martial arts. I bet no shortage of young men have been inspired by the latest celluloid exploits of Tom Cruise to go looking for their nearest koryu dojo. I wonder what they will find there?

The samurai were warriors after all, and everyone one know they were, like, the best swordsmen ever, and they have all this cool zen stuff as well. You get the picture. It's easy for the old hands to laugh, but we were all young once.

Nicojo, you are spot on about people getting overly focused on the terminology. The idea of 'hard' and 'soft' martial arts, and the wonderful insight of Chojun Miyagi coming up with something that is both hard and soft! :rolleyes: . Like no one else uses muscular contraction and relaxation to move about...

I do think there has been a lot of misunderstanding spread by well meaning students, east and west. They may not have had the depth of training, with westerners they may have had the academic skills, but not the linguistic. It is all very well and good for someone to translate a work, but if they lack the practical experience of a martial art, how prone are they going to be to incorrect assumptions? I've read the criticisms of Victor Harris's translation of A Book of Five Rings. The same could well be levelled at others.

Something I do find very intresting in the cross over of civilian martial arts into the military arena. Tai chi chuan, and before that Tibetan Lion's Roar, were adopted by the Manchu as the martial art of the royal bodyguard. Fairbairn and Sykes came from a police background. They are not the only examples by any means.

What is perhaps the significant issue here is whether a method has its roots in real combat experience, rather than where that combat was, be it the jungles of Indonesia or the battlefields of feudal Japan. From there you just have to hope it has been preserved in some meaningful manner.

Michael Becker
13th March 2004, 16:35
A video clip of Wang Shujin demonstrating Hsing I:

http://www.moneynets.net/WUSHU/video/wangshujing-jp1.htm

If you want to save it, once the download is complete got to:

'Control Panel'-'Internet Properties'-'Temporary Internet Files'-'Settings'-'View Files'-right click on '1wsj3' and then copy and paste the file.

Enjoy.

Michael Becker
13th March 2004, 20:17
I've found a better source with 6 clips including the one above:

http://taichi-chuan.com/heb/images/video/wsj1.wmv
http://taichi-chuan.com/heb/images/video/wsj2.wmv
http://taichi-chuan.com/heb/images/video/wsj3.wmv
http://taichi-chuan.com/heb/images/video/wsj4.wmv
http://taichi-chuan.com/heb/images/video/wsj5.wmv
http://taichi-chuan.com/heb/images/video/wsj6.wmv

MarkF
14th March 2004, 17:09
Donn and I continued, him saying that he had utmost respect for Bagua and Hsing i as wonderful "civilian fighting arts." He said that hsing i fighters were the only ones who were generally successful in the full-contact, limited rules fights in East Asia (Incidentally, he confined the word "martial" for fighting arts that were created and functioned on the battlefield. Used to make people froth at the mouth when he'd say, "aikido-karate-judo-wu shu . . . is not a martial art, it's a civilian fighting art.


Well, as usual, I came in behind Joe who usually gets in what I want to say. That isn't a bad thing because, what could be better than knowing someone who saves me the trouble? Well not with me, I can, more or less, continue right where he left off and write a rant on it (which it usually is, so count this as a warning before continuing).


Ellis, Joe, Michael et. alia

As a judo player for the last forty years or so, I have forever, seemingly, tried defending Kodokan Judo, even though I am finally learning the softer areas beginning rather recently, as budo or as a martial art or civilian, civilian sportive fighting art, which is more than Donn ultimately said of it. In doing so, many people have created or used new words or phrases to describe judo which is quite entertaining. When did the word "sport" become an adjective, or better, when did the noun "sport" become an adjective? I mean, am I the only one who cringes at hearing or seeing "Sport Martial Arts?" I may be overly sensitive, but that affects me just as if you pulled long finger nails across a chalk board.

Call it what you wish, judo has been taught, especially during occupation of Japan by the allies, and in the 1950s, as a CQC skill very popular then. I think the "banning" of certain others at the same time, but judo, not only was it left alone (Hey, we're just playing, it isn't combat, it's jacketed wrestling) but probably cemented its future. That's just fine, call it a sport, combative sport (such as wrestling and English Boxing), or just sport, but leave the terms like "demartialized" or "Sport Martial Art" out of it and call it a sport or a martial art or civilian fighting art, contest tussles, or anything grammatically correct. Especially when you don't know the reason a person took it up in the first place. Martial Sport is OK with me, though the two terms do seem to be in contrast to one another.

Truly, what RW Smith or Donn Draeger or Dave Lowry, or whatever term Ellis agrees is proper, is fine with me. Probably most of what is said about judo is true, but people who either have a relatively short background in it never conceived of the idea that most technique, particularly the nage waza, has been "demartialized" and for good reason, but once the "secret" gets around and one learns that with one less move or a decidedly vicious and distinctly different than originally taught or learned, all fighting arts described as whatever, can be what everyone seemingly wants them to be. After all, the "martial arts" of kenjutsu, iaijutsu, kendo, and all the other weapon arts, are actually being practiced just like judo, with no living thing in front of it to be killed (a target sometimes, but not a living thing), yet they are to be called by distinctly different adjectives and nouns because at one time, something somewhat similar may have been used on the battlefields of Japan (and most were probably left on the battle field, only a relative few came back to be "practiced (I assume they had a manner of practicing them in a relatively safe manner)" and mostly practiced safely especially when a new one was uncovered. I doubt Naginata-jutsu saw combat on the battlefield if the accepted history of this weapon is to be believed. The difference is that Judo, karate, the CMA were purposely made to be safely-practiced arts with certain turns of the body perhaps not seen in other taijutsu, or other, koryu jujutsu, but jujutsu it is. I expect the aikido practiced by many today is nothing compared to the aikibudo of Uyeshiba, or indeed nothing like the Daito-ryu AJJ he learned and then taught (Until Sokaku Takeda found out). It is practiced with relative safety and probably, since much of it is from the fifties and sixties, it may not even be his, but his sons. Some are more violent in practice than others, but still a degree of safety _must_be_used to continue beyond the first lesson. Enough leave my dojo because they, or their parents, feel they were treated too harshly (Thrown too hard), and why now I discourage students under 13 yr.., and those who instruct ME into what the intend to learn (I don wanna do no competition stuff), those are usually referred to my competitor (well, AFAIK, there are only two here). It is cruel to him, I know, but while I understand, it is part of the learning process to experience that which is not liked by some. They don't have to like it, they just need to participate and learn it, even winning occasionally. Don't like being slammed through the floor? Reverse it, fer gosh sakes. It may seem difficult, but the principles used by tori to get you on your way, are used in exactly the same way when uke becomes tori. With some, it can take a while before this is understood and is one, small reason for the automatic force against force to be used. This is not a learned response. Nearly everyone comes in the door with it, and if they stay with it, walk out without it, instead a learned reflex takes its place.

As I try to type this with a broken thumb (Yep, in the humble safety of my dojo, I did this, and for the third time and in the same, basic manner), it is interesting within the discussions, how we refer to something is sooo, damn important. Wanna learn to win at judo contests? I can teach you that. Wanna learn how to break someone's neck? I can instruct you to do that, too (However, don't expect the latter for a long, long time).

Anyway, I am going on and on, but I did "feel" the heat rise every so slightly in this thread over this very thing (no, it wasn't about judo, but this is the only way I know to express it. OK, briefly mentioned at some point, I think, a quote or observation by Ellis of DD meeting the 'soft' with a tomoenage, a roll-over transition into a shime-waza, on someone well-known in the "soft circles" to be educated X 10 in the "power of the 'soft (sounds like RWS so I am pretty sure it was uttered or written by him but I didn't go back to get the exact quote. BTW. I really like ... Musings).' It reminds me of the stories of Takeda (Sokaku)'s "beating up a bunch of judo-ka (in this case, I do mean those with expertise)." Reading the story actually conjures up a great, big bunch of hooey, not that something like that didn't happen, I just don't see a man in his latter years (I think he had passed eighty or was about to do so) actually beating up anyone, but defeating these men? Certainly. But all of them, time after time, even to the last one of these over-grown "My Pop can beat up your Pop" types using the same "chop" across the brow, Mr. Takeda avoiding them with rather simple body movement (theirs), AND he left them in one, huge pile of humanity? It isn't told as if it were an attack of eight on one, eighty-year old man, but of a demonstration by him avoiding their attacks using what the judo players would have been using had they learned their lessons well. Never underestimate anyone no matter how silly it may seem. Example: Muhammad Ali Vs Leon Spinks, the heavyweight, gold medal winning Spinks (his brother Michael also winning gold in the same Olympic games), undefeated surely, but with a record of 7-0-1? The only other Heavyweight championship match with even more ludicrous a record to fight the champ was Floyd Pattersen Vs (I can't recall his name at the moment) who had a professional record of 0-0-0. IOW, it was his first fight as a pro when he fought Pattersen for the title. He too, was a gold medal winner in the Olympics. Does that say anything about the guy with no experience? No, but it does say something about the opponent chosen for the champ and a whole lot about the champion at that point in his career. In both cases, they needed easy victories on their records to remain in the eye of the public, but come on! 0-0-0 ????

I've seen too many boxers break their hands in too many fights not to know that many fights where one breaks a hand and by using only one hand, win, but these judoka, using the same chop to the forehead, each one missing, and all falling into a pile as if they were beaten so they, either couldn't stand, or were unconscious? I like the story, but puhleeze, a little truth goes a long way, as boring as that may be.
*********

Call 'em what you will, but most have long ceased to be used in any combat but for the odd street fight these "budoka" cannot seem to avoid. So why is this still so important? That is the point, it isn't, just like the so-called gendai/koryu split which happened one day in the year ca. 1868, according to some, and the 1870s or later, by others, and still more say it began in earnest during the "era of peace," the Edo period, long before those recent years.

It is like the really, well, I won't classify the argument, but the budo v. bujutsu differences, which, if one were really to do something other than authoring messages about it, would notice that all it really means as that the terms are on a time continuum of sorts, that time changes and so does language, any more than that is opinionated or personally created history to fit one's beliefs. History, after all, is opinionated research. The research bears out the facts? Don't bet on it.

Sorry for the rant, folks, and it will most likely be my last on any message board on this subject, but as a few short hairs were beginning to stand over this generally contentious subject, I just wanted to get it all out. RW Smith can be downright sugary in his memory of things when putting pen to paper, while Draeger comes across as the "Encyclopaedic" one, but only when it counted (IOW, when it was printed and made available). I still use Draeger more as a reference source than anything else (compared to Smith, who, while he is certainly fun to read, Ellis is certainly correct that a good deal of MM could have been edited out, but it wouldn't have been nearly so much fun to read), but then I recently bought some reissues of Mr. Draeger's work for, well, the fun of actually reading them in full.;)

And that's da truth. Blehhhhhhhth!




Mark

Mekugi
14th March 2004, 17:31
It's all Budo Mark!:D

Joseph Svinth
15th March 2004, 03:09
Mark --

That was Pete Rademacher, in Seattle. The promoters were Deacon Jack Hurley and Cus D'Amato, and it took place at Sick's Stadium, which is today a Lowe's. Anyway, the location is maybe a mile from Aaron's dojo.

Emmett Watson's books are the ones you want to read.

dmontford
23rd July 2004, 12:41
Originally posted by Ellis Amdur
I can't remember the author, but he wrote two very charming little books about Cheng Man Ching. In one of them, he describes Ching, then living in NY announcing that he'd taken up bowling for a few weeks, but quit because he found even the smallest ball too heavy for him. His students were momentarily astonished, because he was able to throw/project them, many well over 200 pounds flying thru the air to crash into the wall. As I recall the story, Ching laughed, saying something to the effect that he isn't lifting anything with his students - he just helps them throw themselves, but a bowling ball - that's just heavy.

Ellis Amdur

The other version I heard was that Cheng's wife loved bowling
and Cheng hated it. The story of the ball being too heavy was
just his stock excuse.

wmuromoto
25th July 2004, 01:22
I would preface this post by echoing Ellis Amdur's note that I wasn't one of Donn Draeger's "close circle of friends." I was just a sometime student of his in his twilight years, when ill health began to rob him of his physical strength, and I believe it took its toll on his spirit and mind as well.

Draeger had his moments. He was immensely skilled technically at whatever he did. He also had great patience with students like myself, had great belly-laughing stories, and had a definite opinion of things, some of which I agreed with, and some I disagreed with. Whatever.

We once fell upon a discussion of Chinese internal arts, and of Chinese martial arts in general. Or rather, he regaled us young 'uns with his stories, opinions and b.s. He felt that there was, indeed, worth to CMA, although much of its physical mechanics were different from JMA. Contrary to some statements, he didn't seem to hold to any idea of one being necessarily better or inferior; just DIFFERENT. He explained why he thought so, and then recommended that once we got skilled in one or two JMA systems, we really should consider broadening our understanding of body mechanics by studying a CMA. Thereupon followed a story of how an internal CMA teacher nearly broke the wrist of a Kyokushinkai karate buddy of his by using his stomach muscles to blow the punch backwards.

Draeger warned, however, that a lot of Chinese martial arts are fraught with !!!!!!!! artists. I asked if he had ever encountered any CMA master who really had chi powers in all his travels and he said he met just one out of all the crappy so-called masters he encountered. But that one master befuddled and amazed him, and his chi technique went beyond anything he could have imagined.

In his latter years, Draeger got more hardheaded about his constructed differentiations between koryu and gendai (sports) budo, although I am not quite convinced about his arguments. But you have to consider that he himself was highly skilled in Kodokan judo and karatedo before he focused on koryu. And whatever his conclusions and opinions, he did do extensive research and field studies, and left quite a legacy.

He also inspired and encouraged a whole generation of us young 'uns to study budo. I think Donn's legacy is immense and perhaps with no comparison, in terms of his writing and personal teaching. Doing jo with him was like going into battle. His skill level was such that you wouldn't get hurt through any fault of his, but his intent and kimochi was like a real warrior's spirit...and I never use such a romantic term lightly. When you did kata geiko with Draeger, it was as close to "for real" as you could get. That was kata geiko that was alive, not dead, not a dance. He emphasized that unless kata was done that way, it was good for nothing, and your koryu would suck.

On the other hand, he had his share of frailties and human weakness. I drove him to Tripler Hospital a couple of times in my beat-up Duster when I was a grad student, and it was then that I was privy to some of his wonderful stories and reflections. His health, by then, was dwindling, and I could sense his frustration with his physical body failing him.

I won't put Donn on a pedestal; he was way too much of a prankster and jokester for any such idolization of himself. But we...the collective group of younger budo players who knew him, will never see his like again.

Wayne Muromoto

Jeremy Hulley
26th July 2004, 05:28
Wayne....thanks ...I appreciate your willingness so share those stories and that info.