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Scott Rogers
24th February 2004, 22:46
Pressure point techniques work excellent in grappling. This is not to say that if you do not know how to grapple they will be much help but ,just like in the striking they are an add on to help you. One excellent point to start working on is tw 17. this point is located in the depression behind the jaw and is pressed or struck in a direction from fron to back. Have someone pout you in a guillotine choke, and while releiving the pressure with one hand, try to reach up and press into this point to effect a release.

Iron Chef
24th February 2004, 23:14
Thats an old Judo trick. I try to use it to create space where I could slip a hand under to get a grip for a version of okuri eri jime. The technique is similar to what I think the brazilians call the clock choke. I get these PP things done on me also in the course of Judo. As long as you keep the hands out of the face you can usually do it in practice. After a while you learn to ignore it and try to go on with business. I guess Judo makes you numb. Well this topic reminded me of one of my favorite post of all time. It awfully long so I won't quote the whole thing but here is part of it. Enjoy, I really liked it when Ellis first posted it. Have a good week.

Originally posted by Ellis Amdur
... First of all, the SUBTLETY would be getting a struggling, aggressive, maybe drug-intoxicated or berserk individual on his stomach so you could "get" a knee on the neck!! And it's far kinder to put on a decisive technique to immobilize someone rather than a half-assed one that allows them to continue the fight, perhaps necessitating a less "subtle" and more damaging level of force.
More generally, my system of koryu grappling has kyusho - nerve, pressure points, etc. In fact, the proper attack to the neck IS a knee or elbow.
I've probably told this story before, but what the heck. Fooling around, I told a judo instructor friend of mine in Japan that, due to my koryu skill, I was unstranglible. He, of course, challenged me. I lay on my back and he put a cross-collar on me. I can take a good strangle for a few moments, and I used forceful pressure on points in his rib cage with my knuckles, and he shot over my head in agony (note this is a form of hypnosis - I set up conditions whereby, as will be seen, he 'forgot' what he could do). He was majorly upset. I was laughing - Kirin beer fuels such whimsey - and I said, "O.K. Let's do it again. You're pissed, right? So let's imagine I just raped your sister. C'mon, bro, get into it. Imagine my judo-defeating hairy gaijin self on your sister. Strangle me again!" See, I really wanted to see if this kyusho pressure stuff worked under real conditions! He jumps on me, slams the cross-choke home, I'm resisting all my might, and I'm already starting to go out. Put on the pressure points hard - NOTHING! Spread my arms wide, knuckles out, and with all my might, slammed them home, right in the prescribed points. (He had bruises for weeks, and I might have slightly cracked his cartilage at one point). Next thing I remember is the revival. We both started laughing and poured another. The point being that a) pressure points, as most people conceive of them, are really are not combative moves they go with the Klingon Death touch. b) the proof of this only comes up in free-style, which includes what happens to the body when you are enraged, and totally committed, and don't care about pain.
....

MikeWilliams
26th February 2004, 10:46
Thanks for posting that Ellis Amdur quote, Ed.

I remember reading a story about Royler (or possibly Renzo) Gracie when he first came to the States. Apparently he was rolling with some karate type who started digging him in the ribs, neck, legs, etc. The other Gracie who was running the class asked him "what are you doing?", to which the karate guy replied "working pressure points."

The other Gracie said: "well stop it. You're p*ssing him off."

---

Of course pressure points can be used to create space, but there is a huge danger in relying on them. You need to know and train your escapes and positions and setups first. This is particularly true of escapes, since people often seem to go for PPs as a panic reaction, when they are doing badly.
If you think that PPs will help you out of unfavourable situations, you just might find (as Mr. Amdur and the above-mentioned-karate guy found out) that you just p*ss your opponent off.

Above all, please do not start using them during newaza randori, unless you both agree to it first. I have had this happen too many times. Basically, if you feel you have the right to start going for PPs on me, then I feel I have the right to start punching you in the face. ;)

hectokan
26th February 2004, 16:25
Basically, if you feel you have the right to start going for PPs on me, then I feel I have the right to start punching you in the face.


I love It.:smash:

Iron Chef
26th February 2004, 16:45
Hi Hector

I got your e-mail, thanks a lot. I tried to forward it to my office so I could respond today but it didn't go through. I'll try to send a reply tonight after I get home from the dojo. Things are going pretty good up here right now.

The only PP I ever use in newaza is the one under the jaw using the index finger knuckle in the course of trying to slip in a collar choke. This works best when on top going for an okuri eri jime. Psychologically this works better when you are in the superior and safer postion. When on the bottom and getting you butt kicked in osaekomi waza then the last thing I want to do is !!!! off my opponent :laugh:

Yes the other PPs like gouging the ribs and cheap crap like that won't do anything other than piss off your partner. I guess this stuff must work pretty good on karate guys though or they wouldn't be doing it. But all you will do is !!!! off a Judo player or BJJ player.

Just don't do the PP the is supposed to cause defecation during newaza. :toot:

MikeWilliams
26th February 2004, 17:48
Originally posted by Iron Chef
Just don't do the PP the is supposed to cause defecation during newaza. :toot:

I might try that one on my girlfriend, though.

Scott Rogers
26th February 2004, 20:31
Of course you should not rely solely on just pressure points. You do need to know how to grapple. In a grappling match points should not be used because they are similar to striking an opponent and would be either illegal if caught, or unfair in a friendly training match.

GroundStrength
26th February 2004, 21:34
What about using striking Lung-5 to bring your opponents head down to you, then getting head control for the roll-off?

StanLee
27th February 2004, 08:12
A couple of weeks ago I was a judo course at my aikido dojo, I was in randori (but I didn't know the legal rules of engagement properly) when my partner managed to get me in a scalf hold (jp?) on the ground.

The only thing I could do to get out of it was by clamping my hand around the back of his neck and applying pressure through the thumb and middle finger on the sides of his neck (applied on the more muscular part of the neck I think).

Well, the harder he applied the hold on me, the harder I gripped. It ended when his face went red, dropped his head and the instructor stopped the bout.

So my question is, is this a valid or good pressure point to go for. If it is even a pressure point.

Secondly, if my partner had been a more experienced judo player (and for the sake of argument a BJJ player), would this still have worked or would I have just pissed the other person off.

Cheers.

hectokan
27th February 2004, 14:50
The only PP I ever use in newaza is the one under the jaw using the index finger knuckle in the course of trying to slip in a collar choke.


Ed,

This seems to be the classic judo prying tech for opening up the neck area and exposing the choke,perfectly legal in judo.In BJJ you can actually put your hands on his forehead and push the head back exposing the choke in that manner.


I believe that most all other forms of desperation PP attacks will eventually prevent one from acquiring the solid "foundation" needed to learn grappling in it's proper form.People have to realize that inorder to learn certain areas of combat properly one must eliminate certain rules inorder to gain the expertise in that area.


Now,from an analytical point of view one can argue that real fighting mostly involves"Everything Goes"but what most people seem to overlook is that the quality of learning each and every different phase of combat is mostly diluted because the core principles that one is trying to learn is automatically thrown out the window.

An example can be used with boxing per se,let's say that a fighter is trying to learn how to properly throw punches like a boxer,so that he can add this knowledge of punching to his already long list of technical attributes.LOL

If everytime you try to work on your boxing skills someone shoots in and tries to take you down you will become very good at that part of dealing with someone trying to take you down(which can very well be reality) but unfortunately in the long run your boxing skills will not improve much because you have not eliminated certain rules in training that allows you to gain the expertise of boxing.

As you can see sometimes more rules although in most cases would seem to be less realistic is actualy nessesary for a portion of your training inorder to gain real expertise in a certain area of fighting.

MikeWilliams
27th February 2004, 19:36
Originally posted by StanLee
Secondly, if my partner had been a more experienced judo player (and for the sake of argument a BJJ player), would this still have worked or would I have just pissed the other person off.


Dunno. We'll just have to put it to the test at the next London E-budo meet-up. :up: :saw: :mst: :smash: :shot: :toot:


------
Hector, spot on! Very well said. :nw:

Iron Chef
27th February 2004, 19:51
Originally posted by StanLee
A couple of weeks ago I was a judo course at my aikido dojo, I was in randori (but I didn't know the legal rules of engagement properly) when my partner managed to get me in a scalf hold (jp?) on the ground.
The Japanee term is probably Kesa Gatame unless he clamped your your arm that was on his side across your face then it would have kata gatame.


Originally posted by StanLee
The only thing I could do to get out of it was by clamping my hand around the back of his neck and applying pressure through the thumb and middle finger on the sides of his neck (applied on the more muscular part of the neck I think).

Well, the harder he applied the hold on me, the harder I gripped. It ended when his face went red, dropped his head and the instructor stopped the bout.[/B]

I am having hard time with the description sounds like it may appear that you were trying to throttle his neck with two handed or trying to do some kind of carotid pinch. You should not do that in Judo and it isn't effective anyway unless you get some good leverage and try to crush the dudes windpipe. Yes that will !!!! someone off I believe. But, I don't know if I understood your description properly so you may want to disregard.

Here is something to think about in regards to chokes. The carotid choke in most (If not all, I'm just really hesitant to ever say all.) is a myth. You don't cut the blood flow off TO THE Brain. Pressure on the arterial walls to to great. Kind of like grabbing a fire hose with your bare hands and cutting off the flow of water. You won't do it. If you have an arterial gas test done where they take blood out of your arteries you will be told to be very very still or you can die. If you jerk around when they puncture the artery with the needle it can be bad news.

What you will do though is cut off the flow through the jugular vein. Blood can enter the head but it can't leave. If you have ever been choked out what you feel is the feeling that your head is going to pop. This pressure from the blood build up can knock you out. If you stop the out flow then yes circulation of fresh blood to the brain stops its just the choke point is the veins and not the arteries.


Originally posted by StanLee
So my question is, is this a valid or good pressure point to go for. If it is even a pressure point.[/B]
I don't know but I bet it is. From looking at accupunture picture books the entire neck is a pressure point I think.


Originally posted by StanLee
Secondly, if my partner had been a more experienced judo player (and for the sake of argument a BJJ player), would this still have worked or would I have just pissed the other person off. [/B]

Had your partner been a more experienced Judo man or BJJ player then Nothing would have worked period. Sorry that is just the way it is. Maybe if you are lucky and really quick, supple and incredible strong you could pull something of of your butt. Who knows but experience is the whole reason for the training

FYI: BJJ is a variant of Kosen Judo they are from the same family tree. The key is the training methodology by which you train in a free action envirnoment against a fully resisting opponent. This gives you a good indicator of what kinds of things can work. I see karate guys say that they have throws in their kata and believe they can pull it off without ever throwing a resisting opponent in their life. Lets say I think their assessments may be a little optomistic at times but, who knows sometimes it better to be lucky than good.

Iron Chef
27th February 2004, 20:08
Great points Hector.

We've disscussed before that "Everything Goes" Arts often don't work so good. Killer techniques that are so dangerous that you can't practice them can be worthless. Like the Jujutsu SeioNage that breaks uke's arm vs the safe Judo version that we used to plant people in the dojo every week. The safe kicks the killer ones but, or at least in my case. I've never been allowed to actually practice the "effective killer version". Hsve a good weekend.

MikeWilliams
27th February 2004, 20:44
Originally posted by Iron Chef
What you will do though is cut off the flow through the jugular vein. Blood can enter the head but it can't leave. If you have ever been choked out what you feel is the feeling that your head is going to pop. This pressure from the blood build up can knock you out. If you stop the out flow then yes circulation of fresh blood to the brain stops its just the choke point is the veins and not the arteries.

I didn't know that. Thanks Ed. So the pressure of the blood already in the head prevents fresh oxygenated blood reaching it? i.e. the choke does work by starving the brain of oxygen? (Just checking in case I misunderstood.)

I'm very familiar with the 'head about to pop' sensation. Oh boy, how familiar I am with that sensation. :cry:

Hissho
27th February 2004, 20:57
Originally posted by Iron Chef
FYI: BJJ is a variant of Kosen Judo they are from the same family tree. The key is the training methodology by which you train in a free action envirnoment against a fully resisting opponent. This gives you a good indicator of what kinds of things can work. I see karate guys say that they have throws in their kata and believe they can pull it off without ever throwing a resisting opponent in their life. Lets say I think their assessments may be a little optomistic at times but, who knows sometimes it better to be lucky than good.

For the sake of accuracy, BJJ is not a variant of Kosen judo.

Kosen Judo did not really develop until after Maeda left Japan. It may be more accurate to say that BJJ is a variant of judo newaza, originally passed on by a man who was present at the Kodokan during the time frame that newaza was being developed/emphasized after the losses to the Fusen-ryu, and further adapted from his experiences fighting wrestlers and other non-judoka in challenge matches and pro-rasslin'.

The fact that there are so many similarities is more a function of coming from a base in common principles and techniques and the use of the keikogi.


As far as pressure points not working, everyone has it all wrong. Doubtless because they have not experienced a "true" lineage to legit Judo or BJJ practice:

Judo and BJJ specifically develop the ki and the meridiens, making the body externally and internally flexible and at the same time allowing the ability to internally bend/twist the meridiens away from pressure point attacks as they are being utilized. BJJ positional strategy makes this easier, but the fact is the famously grueling BJJ warm up exercises, many borrowed from yoga and the "Brazilian Yoga" Gymnastica Natural system, are what develop this internal manipulation.


Mike, you have e-mail. I will be in your neck of the woods next week.

Iron Chef
27th February 2004, 21:02
Originally posted by MikeWilliams
I didn't know that. Thanks Ed. So the pressure of the blood already in the head prevents fresh oxygenated blood reaching it? i.e. the choke does work by starving the brain of oxygen? (Just checking in case I misunderstood.)
...
Yes it does starve the brain of oxygen and render can someone unconscious by oxygen deprevation and even kill if applied long enough. The Local Police Department has now doesn't allow chokeholds Maybe because some cops don't know what they are always doing and sometimes mistake seizures as resistence or maybe they just get a little too excited. Who know but I hate to see this policy.

But, some chokes can cause immedimate knock outs. We have one we call the Masa Masacre. Its named after the Judo teacher from Yokohama who taught it to us. We didn't know the real name of technique. But basically it is a leg assisted choke done when the opponent is on the ground face down semi-turtled or on his hand and knees. Once you get the grip for the choke you sutemi (sacrifice fall). The collar circle closes so hard and fast it can knock you out immediately. Our dojo went to a tournament once and I was watching a team mate compete and he got the choke on and sacked. The guy went out immediately but the ref didn't catch it at first because there is no tap when you go out immediately. Mark was pretty shook up he looked at me and said Ed I killed him. I told no you didn't he's fine, which he was he just need to wake back up. Judo players are pretty sturdy. The knock out in this case I think has to do with the atemi effect of the collar closing so hard and fast but I could be wrong.

Iron Chef
27th February 2004, 22:02
Originally posted by Hissho
...

As far as pressure points not working, everyone has it all wrong. Doubtless because they have not experienced a "true" lineage to legit Judo or BJJ practice:
...

Thanks for for the history stuff. I thought Maeda was Judo I didn't realize he fused his method with other stuff in addition to the Judo. Nice post.

I don't know about my lineage. My teacher was pretty top notch I thought. My teacher's teacher finish 3rd place in the 1960 World Championships in the big guy's division. And came from the Kodokan and was one of their top newaza players in his day. But I just don't understand all that meridian stuff. Also I know nothing about BJJ I'm just an old Judo player. My lineage just didn't teach those Ki thingies.
:confused:

Hissho
27th February 2004, 23:10
Originally posted by Iron Chef
Thanks for for the history stuff. I thought Maeda was Judo I didn't realize he fused his method with other stuff in addition to the Judo. Nice post.

I don't know about my lineage. My teacher was pretty top notch I thought. My teacher's teacher finish 3rd place in the 1960 World Championships in the big guy's division. And came from the Kodokan and was one of their top newaza players in his day. But I just don't understand all that meridian stuff. Also I know nothing about BJJ I'm just an old Judo player. My lineage just didn't teach those Ki thingies.
:confused:


Maeda was a judoka. He just had a broader range of experience using his judo against non-judoka. There is a photo of him in fighting trunks performing a hold on another, similarly dressed opponent. Just like modern MMA fighters/submission grapplers.

As far as the ki and meridien stuff, I was just being a butt head. The reason this stuff tends not to work is because judo and BJJ trains against real contact, with real flow, in real time. Rather than legitimize questionable fighting theory, this kind of practice tends to demonstrate that a lot that is accepted as effective within the martial arts is nothing of the sort when the other guy can resist and fight back.

BTW, the reason for many police departments' not allowing "choke holds" is because they were being performed as just that - bar arm chokes - by poorly trained officers. Correctly done shime waza - as in carotid neck holds which do not effect the windpipe but do attack bloodflow to the brain - are experiencing a comeback.

hectokan
28th February 2004, 19:32
How can we forget that old reliable pointy sharp elbows applied to ukes inside thighs,inorder to break the close guard.


PP BABY:eek:

Iron Chef
29th February 2004, 15:59
Originally posted by hectokan
How can we forget that old reliable pointy sharp elbows applied to ukes inside thighs,inorder to break the close guard.

PP BABY:eek:

That one hurts. I like the way Roberto screams in agony when Marco does that to break Roberto's guard! :laugh:

I'm glad some police departments are allowing the comeback of hadake jime. I would like to see police be able to the use the most effect restraining available to them. The city guys at the dojo were complaining a few years ago and they were discussing the memo that came down to them banning the use of choke holds. The county guys I think still have more of a free hand in what they do. The big joke was if they use a choke hold to restrain a bad guy they would get in whole lot more trouble than if they used deadly force. The only police I really get to interact with much are the LEOs in the dojo. These guys take continuing education very seriously. I wish all LEOs were like that. I hear a lot of their war stories and I don't think the general public realizes just how an arrest situation can turn in to a fight situation. I hate to see effective restraint techniques taken away from them. We have a lot of policemen in Goju Ryu. We have none in the Judo dojo here. That always kind of surprised me a little because I always thought the judo stuff would be very applicable. I guess it is because our original teacher Goju Ryu here was a policeman and he drew in LEOs to the dojo. Myself and one other blackbelt who is a LEO ( he is, I am not) have a big Judo background and it has become a large part of our Goju Ryu training. This may not be good from a tradition perspective but, Oh well I think its good.

Iron Chef
29th February 2004, 16:19
Originally posted by Hissho
....The reason this stuff tends not to work is because judo and BJJ trains against real contact, with real flow, in real time. Rather than legitimize questionable fighting theory, this kind of practice tends to demonstrate that a lot that is accepted as effective within the martial arts is nothing of the sort when the other guy can resist and fight back.
....

:nw: :nw: :nw: :nw: :nw: :nw: :nw: :nw: :nw: :nw: :nw: :nw: :nw:

mech
1st March 2004, 01:41
This is just at the trainning level:


"The other Gracie said: "well stop it. You're p*ssing him off."

Works best.



mech

dakotajudo
17th March 2004, 01:10
Originally posted by Iron Chef
Here is something to think about in regards to chokes. The carotid choke in most (If not all, I'm just really hesitant to ever say all.) is a myth. You don't cut the blood flow off TO THE Brain.

Sorry, Ed, but you are wrong on this. The accepted model for strangulatin is carotid compression. See http://www.aikidoaus.com.au/dojo/docs/chokes.htm or http://www.ebji.org/akeem/revive.html .



Pressure on the arterial walls to to great. Kind of like grabbing a fire hose with your bare hands and cutting off the flow of water.



The pressure in the carotid isn't going to be much higher than 120 mm Hg (well, that's an average for systolic pressure, maybe 2-3 times that during stress) - which is about 2.4 p.s.i. For comparison, an average value for pinch pressure (pinching thumb and forefinger) is about 16 pounds.



You won't do it. If you have an arterial gas test done where they take blood out of your arteries you will be told to be very very still or you can die. If you jerk around when they puncture the artery with the needle it can be bad news.

??? see http://www.umm.edu/ency/article/003855.htm



What you will do though is cut off the flow through the jugular vein. Blood can enter the head but it can't leave. If you have ever been choked out what you feel is the feeling that your head is going to pop. This pressure from the blood build up can knock you out. If you stop the out flow then yes circulation of fresh blood to the brain stops its just the choke point is the veins and not the arteries.


That's a little trickier to debate - if you block just the jugular and not the carotid, it's true that pressure will back up. But how much is pressure increased in the arterioles and capillaries in the brain? I'd suspect a potential for stroke, but have't been able to find any references.



From looking at accupunture picture books the entire neck is a pressure point I think.

With all this talk about pressure points, I'm surprised no one's mentioned the one that, in my view, works as advertised - the carotid sinus.

The carotid sinus contains a baroreceptor that, when stimulated, inhibits heart. The Kodokan published a study where heart rate was decreased to less than one-third the rate prior to the choke, upon application of okuri-eri-jime.



FYI: BJJ is a variant of Kosen Judo they are from the same family tree.

As I understand it, Maeda was also trained in Tenshin Shinyo Ryu, so the differences in modern judo and BJJ may be in part the TSR techniques not retained in the Kodokan syllabus. And, IIRC, TSR is somewhat known for atemi waza - maybe this includes pressure points?

Wounded Ronin
11th April 2004, 07:02
I have never experienced effective use of pressure points, personally. I've only experienced lame use of pressure points that didn't really do anything positive for the guy using them. Just learn to grapple if that's what you want to do.

Hissho
14th April 2004, 14:59
Little late getting back to the party:

BJJ is not a Kosen Judo variant. Same family tree, certainly, but Kosen Judo had not even started yet when Maeda left Japan.

It *may* be more accurate to say that Maeda was more influenced by the surge of interest in newaza practice at the Kodokan after the losses to Tanabe of the Fusen-ryu.

And there is nothing in BJJ that looks anything like Tenjin Shinyo-ryu.

hectokan
16th April 2004, 12:38
Hi Kit,

I was hoping you can answer a question concerning Helios gracie self defense jiujitsu techniques.Some of these techniques look very similar to the moves found in classical jujutsu standup control & subdue type moves.


My Question would be.....Did Maeda introduce any of these self defense moves from older jujutsu styles to Helio?or did Helio completely invent them upon his own research?




PS:About Maeda being from the Kosen school.I believe that although he came right before the set up of the official kosen structure.He must have been part of the nucleus of groundwork scientist that were evolving that specific type of groundwork judo.This later became known as kosen judo.