Nifanchi Testing

[Rob Alvelais]

In another board someone posted this link:
http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/011/003/index.html

It looks like one fellow is "testing" the other's nifanchi. I've never heard of such a thing in the Shorin systems. Any of you advanced shorin practitioners who do nifanchi have any experience with this?

Rob

[Gene Williams]

Rob, It was not at all uncommon in my dojo training under Higioshi or Joe Ruiz, or at camps with Kuniba for our Sanchin or Seisan to "tested." Actually, any kata might be tested by kicking or pushing or punching. I do it to my students all the time. I don't know that Naihanchi gets much attention. Maybe it should.

[Timothy.G.B.]

Hi Rob:

I certainly wouldn't consider myself an advanced practitioner but I have had some experience with "testing" naihanchi kata. What are you curious about?

Tim Black

[Rob Alvelais]

Originally posted by Gene Williams
Rob, It was not at all uncommon in my dojo training under Higioshi or Joe Ruiz, or at camps with Kuniba for our Sanchin or Seisan to "tested."
Sure, I've had the same experience in my training. But, I've never seen "shime" like one sees in Sanchin, say, for an Itosu Kei kata.



Actually, any kata might be tested by kicking or pushing or punching. I do it to my students all the time. I don't know that Naihanchi gets much attention. Maybe it should.

Did you look at the video? It looked like the guy was testing the kata, the same way as one does Sanchin. Have you seen that sort of testing in the Itosu Kei kata, O Shihan no fukuro-nezumi ?

Rob

[Timothy.G.B.]

Rob:

The guy doing the kata is Higa Minoru Sensei, Kyudokan Shorin-ryu, nephew of Higa Yuchoku Dai Sensei. That is Higa's karate and his way of "testing" naihanchi.

Tim Black

[Rob Alvelais]

Originally posted by Timothy.G.B.
Rob:

The guy doing the kata is Higa Minoru Sensei, Kyudokan Shorin-ryu, nephew of Higa Yuchoku Dai Sensei. That is Higa's karate and his way of "testing" naihanchi.

Tim Black

Hi Tim,

So, are you saying that this notion is unike to Higa and his school?

Rob

[Rob Alvelais]

Originally posted by Timothy.G.B.
Hi Rob:

I certainly wouldn't consider myself an advanced practitioner but I have had some experience with "testing" naihanchi kata. What are you curious about?

Tim Black

Hi Tim,

It's just the whacking of the body and the testing that looks like one does in sanchin. Just wondering if that's unique to this group, or do other shorin ryu, (kobayashi, matsubayashi, etc) do this sort of "shime" with Nifanchi. I've not heard of it myself, but I realize that I've not see/heard everything. ;-)

Rob

[Timothy.G.B.]

Rob:
--------------------------
Rob said,

So, are you saying that this notion is unike to Higa and his school?
-------------------------------

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I was saying that this kind of "testing" is typical of Higa's karate and his lineage, as far as I know it.

-----------------------------
Rob said,

It's just the whacking of the body and the testing that looks like one does in sanchin. Just wondering if that's unique to this group, or do other shorin ryu, (kobayashi, matsubayashi, etc) do this sort of "shime" with Nifanchi. I've not heard of it myself, but I realize that I've not see/heard everything. ;-)
-------------------------------

I can't commment on Matsubayashi or other branches of kobayashi, but I can say that in terms of Higa's lineage, naihanchi is always "tested" this way. It does look like it does in sanchin and not knowing much about Goju, Uechi, or other schools that do sanchin kata, I can't say if they are "whacking" :) for the same reasons that they are doing it in Higa's.

Tim BlackRob said,

[Timothy.G.B.]

Editing error :)

Not, Tim BlackRob said,

But,

Tim Black

P.S. Having trouble figuring out how to make stuff bold etc.:D

[Rob Alvelais]

Thanks Tim.


"{b} stuff you want bold face {/b}

Replace the "{}" with []

Rob

[Timothy.G.B.]

Thanks for the tip Rob!! I appreciate it.

[TimoS]

Originally posted by Rob Alvelais
Hi Tim,

It's just the whacking of the body and the testing that looks like one does in sanchin. Just wondering if that's unique to this group, or do other shorin ryu, (kobayashi, matsubayashi, etc) do this sort of "shime" with Nifanchi. I've not heard of it myself, but I realize that I've not see/heard everything. ;-)

Rob

Ok, I am a bit unqualified to speak about various shorin ryu :) (since Shorinji ryu Renshinkan is, after all, a japanese style) but sometimes our sensei does that with us and not just with Naifanchi but with other kata as well.

[Rob Alvelais]

Maybe he's trying to get you to stop doing nifanchi,:laugh: as Renshinkan doesn't typically do nifanchi, does it?

I've a buddy out here who is a Renshinkan practitioner. I think their kata list is: Seisan, Ananku, Wanshu, Chinto, Gojushiho, Bassai and Kushanku.

Rob


Originally posted by TimoS
Ok, I am a bit unqualified to speak about various shorin ryu :) (since Shorinji ryu Renshinkan is, after all, a japanese style) but sometimes our sensei does that with us and not just with Naifanchi but with other kata as well.

[TimoS]

Originally posted by Rob Alvelais
Maybe he's trying to get you to stop doing nifanchi,:laugh: as Renshinkan doesn't typically do nifanchi, does it?

I've a buddy out here who is a Renshinkan practitioner. I think their kata list is: Seisan, Ananku, Wanshu, Chinto, Gojushiho, Bassai and Kushanku.

Rob

Could that be the reason ? :laugh:

Actually you are right, officially they are not part of Renshinkan, at least not anymore, but here in Finland we are taught all 5 Pinan and 3 Naifanchi in addition to those you mentioned. The reason we've been told is that Matsuoi sensei learned them from his teacher, Ikubo sensei, who learned them from the founder of our style.

[Shorinman]

We call it Kitae Kata (i.e.Naihanchi Shodan Kitae Kata) or
conditioning/training kata. I have seen Naihanchi Shodan done just like shime in Goju; also done with 12x12x1 boards, and 2x2 by 4ft long wood.

Its also done in Miyahira Katsuya's dojo and his students.

[Daniel Kogan]

This type of Naihanji training is less common now a days, but still seen in traditional dojo. It is true that Miyahira sensei and others also train Naihanji this way. As for Higa Dai-sensei you need to keep in mind that he was originally a Goju-ryu teacher, student and assistant instructor under Chojun sensei and Shinzato Jinan, before becoming a student of Chibana Choshin sensei. So it’s no wonder that the Kyudokan training is “Goju-like”.

The other thing to keep in mind, which I mentioned on a different thread recently, is the close linkage between Sanchin and Naihanji. Many Shorin dojo on Okinawa actually refer to Sanchin dachi as “ippon naihanji dachi”. The body mechanics are very similar and the application is very much the same. Chojun sensei, Shinzato and Higa all trained both kata.

The other comment I would make on this topic is that “Shime training” is just that... "training". It is not about “taking the hit” it is about teaching muscle control. The important part of this training is not the “whacking” or receiving the hit, but rather the muscular contractions that occur as a result. THis hitting is the most effective way to teach somebody how to contract the muscles, if the teacher had to explain which muscles to contract ,one at a time and have the student try to control each individual muscle it would make for a very long conversation. Once the student learns to feel the muscles and how they contract and can turn this on or off at will, this type of train is much less frequent.

I can hear in my head what my sensei said, "I can tell you 1000 times or hit you once", perhaps not the most politically correct, but it sure is aneffective and efficient way to teach ;)

My 2 cents.

[Hank Irwin]

A lot of Shorin factions test Naihanchi, a lot don't. If you look at the kiba dachi from the angles it uses, it is long sanchin dachi. I think this came about after 72' or so.

[saigo_tak]

Originally posted by TimoS
Actually you are right, officially they are not part of Renshinkan, at least not anymore, but here in Finland we are taught all 5 Pinan and 3 Naifanchi in addition to those you mentioned. The reason we've been told is that Matsuoi sensei learned them from his teacher, Ikubo sensei, who learned them from the founder of our style.

~> may i ask who you are speaking of? ~ "the founder of our style."
and, what style you speak of if it is not Renshinkan?

kiitos-

[TimoS]

Originally posted by saigo_tak
~> may i ask who you are speaking of? ~ "the founder of our style."
and, what style you speak of if it is not Renshinkan?

kiitos-

I am speaking of Zen Nippon Shorinji ryu Renshinkan Karatedo founder Isamu Tamotsu soke sensei. Why do you ask ?

[Hank Irwin]

Gentlemen, can we stick to the thread? This same encounter is in "Tuite in Jap." thread also. Maybe this should go to gendai karate forum.

[Hank Irwin]

Ippon Nahanji Dachi?? That's Japanese, not Okinawan. For the most part, the Okinawans hated/hate the Japanese as much as they hate us. That's the main reason we have troubles bridging the gap from student to student when it comes down to what we were taught. Teachers change things for reasons. Some good, some not so good. Sometimes you don't find out about those changes until much later. This causes much friction between Seniors who say they were taught the "right" way. Kata and bunkai being the vehicle that substanciates it. Naihanchi is a good example. I have seen so much BS when it comes down to others "interpretation" of this treasure. Interpretation is something that only comes with the right teacher and the length of your studies. Bunkai is "read" a certain way. Not the way it looks on the surface. Some kamae are symbolic of the bunkai inside. Naihanchi is same way, if you don't know how to read bunkai properly, you will make up your own bunkai and pass it to your students. Most times, you will be teaching your students how to get hurt.

[Blackwood]

Man! I thought that was Nakasoni Sensei at first glance!

This sort of testing occurs all the time in my training. Iha Sensei (Miyahira's senior student), Menders Sensei (Iha's second senior student) and other instructors walk around while kata is being done and test stances, blocks and punches. A hand on the shoulder, a tap to the stomach, a slap on the fist, or more commonly a series of slaps on the fist to see how far it moves in various directions.

Probably the one I learned from most was a swung forearm to one of the blocks to the side. It almost drove my own fist into my face, but it sure taught me the correct angle to do it at in the future!

I should also mention that this is not done with any intent on causing pain and the instructors know who to do it with and who it would just totally freak out. In my mind, any attention from Iha Sensei is good! A simple approving nod had me flying high for weeks!