Judo As A Fighting Art?

[G. Jetter]

Gentlemen (and ladies), I come to this forum with the sincere hope of satisfying my curiosity concerning the art of Judo. For the record I am a student of Takagi Yoshin Ryu and Shinden Fudo Ryu jujutsu as well as Hontai Yoshin Ryu jujutsu. Over the course of the years I have been told that Kano sensei removed the dangerous elements from the jujutsu that he studied and devised the sport of Judo. I must admit that Judo has been often promoted and marketed (within the scope of the media that I have been subjected to) as a sport; consequently an Olympic event. I also had the pleasure of observing a Judo tournament while myself training in Japan this past Spring.

Recently, in an effort to better understand and appreciate the jujutsu that I study I have began researching various other arts that incorporate elements of ju. As such I obtained a copy of the book "Kodokan Judo" by Kano sensei. Needless to say, I was very surprised by what I found.

It seems as though Kano sensei simply took what he felt was inconsistent with, what he viewed, as the principle of ju and removed it from his training curriculum. Essentially taking away that which he felt was not effective or practical (correct me if I'm wrong). I was surprised to find not only atemi waza and kappo waza in his manuscript but techniques of muto dori (unarmed versus sword) as well.

This gave me pause. I have never actually been aware of Judo having, at any time, been promoted as a fighting art. Again, due to my own ignorance and misunderstanding perhaps.

After reading several other threads in this particular forum I get the impression that the atemi, kappo and muto dori techniques are not taught a great deal, if at all, and the focus is primarily on Judo as a 'martial' sport. Why is this?

But my primary question has to be, is there anyone who actually studies Judo as a fighting art and not as a sport? If so, how does this (if at all) change the training or the way that Judo is taught?

I thank everyone in advance for your time and consideration for this inquiry.


[Edited by G. Jetter on 10-19-2000 at 09:57 AM]

[Arashi]

Hi all.

I do not know of any Judoka that trains Judo as a "fighting art" only, without any concern for the sportive side, i mean, nowadays. I believe that was a lot more common in the old days of Judo, but i think if there isn't really anybody that trains like that today, but i may be wrong, this is a big world. John (Robert W. Smith) Gilbey said in one of his books that if you have to go to a rough place and had to choose between a Judoka, a Karateka and a Chinese Boxer, you should choose the Judoka, and he is right. Yes, Judo IS a hell of a fighting art. And you know what is funny? A lot of high graded Judoka don't know about it. They grew so much used to the sports regulations, that they tend to forget about the "fighting" aspect. What i mean is that a Judoka mindset (and the way he trains) nowadays is more "i can't do that, it will cost me a shido and i will loose" than "i will wait for him to grab me then i will throw him and step in tho choke him out", that is a fighter's mindset. So what i mean is that TODAY Judo is more a sport than a fighting art, BUT the tools are all there, the training is what makes the difference. Self-defense forms like Kinme-no-kata are more trained today as a complement necessary to an examination and a lot of dojos just skip it.It is not part of the everyday Keiko. But it is the mindset. Take a look at Gracie Jiu Jitsu, that is really an off-spring of Kodokan Judo and you will see what i mean. Well, i don't know how it is trained in the USA, but here in Brazil they enfatically train for street-combat more than for sport although there is a sportive side of it. But you know what happens when Judoka and Gracie Jiu-jutsuka confront here? Judoka easily and fastly win when they follow Judo rules and they loose when following Jiu-jitsu rules but after giving the Gracie guys a rough time. No wonder many cross-train. Let's talk more. Ganbatte.

Toni Rodrigues

[davoravo]

My father trained in Judo in th 60s and at that time it was certainly a fighting art. When I began training in aikido he remarked how similair it was (of course some people would say aikido is not a fighting art). In demonstrations I have attended the self defence forms of judo have appeared identical to some of the aikido techniques which are adapted directly from jujutsu.

Incidentally I trained in judo as a child and found it useful as a fighting form both in the playground and later on the street. At close grappling range,which is where the fights I have been involved in start,it is easy to smother a punch or kick (or knee to the groin which I had to block) and of course you have an obvious advantage at this range, although I always waited for someone to pull my assailant off

My brother has also trained in judo and karate and he feels that judo would be the best in a fight.

[kusanku]

In the Sixties I learned sport and self defense Judo, and in the Seventies I taught it for sport and self defense.

In the eighties I incorporated it into my kempo and karate when I found out how vulnerable non-judoka are to its even sport waza:D and in the Nineties I have come to regard Judo as a martial art, second to none.

Personally I still integrate it with all my training experience in other arts, but let's face a few facts:Judo teaches Tai Sabaki to avoid attacks, sweeping foot and hand interceptions and grabs to control the opponent's body through a limb, and strikes to distract and injure an opponent.

Combine this with kansetsu waza, shime waza, nage and katame waza, and kuzushi, with applied body dynamics in all, and you have got something.

Do you have any idea how many karae folks have no comprehension of the eight directions of unbalance, or what that can mean?

Many contest karate fighters have little understanding of tai sabaki.

Now you take the Judo foundation principles and put that in with whatever else you do, and youwill improve it.

Guaranteed.

Koryu people may disagree, but have to say, the fact that in judo you train to handle a resisting opponent, who knows what you are trying to do, makes it a unique training method.

I believe for best results, the principles of Judo need to be incorporated into anyone;s personal training.

Maximum efficiency with minimum effort, the art of ukemi, the happo no kuzushi, the steps of a nage waza the body dynamics of matwork, ways to apply effective and succesful holddowns, and so forth, will benefit everyone.

When in seminars I used to teach, for allround self defense and also karate kata applications,I would demonstrae the very effective karate methods of doing things, I would always stop at some point and show, the power of Judo.

In a karate armbar, you get the proper angle, press the right nerves, shoot a spear hand over the arm behind the elbow in the right direction and send the uke to the mat.Very good, very effective, and you have to do it just right or it will not work.You have to have good kata, in short.

In a Judo armbar:D, you all know what's coming, don't you, everyone:-),you turn inside that arm, slap it under your armpit, over your chest or under the belly, and sit down into the mat.Fast.

The attacker sits down or he gets a shattered arm.So everyone sits down.

You can do this at white belt.That's what I love about Judo. Kano got right down to business.

Probably the hardest things to master in Judo are the forward throws, combinations, holddowns and transitions.

But as far as the way to make them work goes, it couldn't be simpler or more clearly spelled out.

There are Godans in karate who may not know how to unbalance a person,or even to get the most power out of a punch(check karateka's punches against boxer's.).But there are no brown or green belts in Judo who can't make at least the basics of their art, work.

'Specially on untrained attackers.

I would conclude my horrifying :D demo of Kodokan Judo to the Karate people, with the words, 'Learn Judo or be forever Vulnerable!'

I wasn't joking, either! There's nothing like a well executed makikomi to take the starch outen a macho black belter in striking do.Ko Uchi gari Makikomi works real well against a front weighted fighting stance, and against a rear weighted one,O soto gari works well.Fifty fifty? O uchi gari.


Now Jujitsu is fine stuff and I do some "chop suey" American variety of that too( no traditional system),but in jiujitsu we often focussed on technique,effective as it was, and I know many jiujitsu styles do teach principles,such as DZR and koryu styles too-but I think the Judo principles for waza and self defense are the simplest and most easily assimilated , ever created.

It is indeed a pity that most younger judoka do not take advantage of these to make their judo an effective martial art, as well as sport.



[Edited by kusanku on 10-19-2000 at 05:39 PM]

[ericDZR]

i've been studying DZR jujutsu for a little over a year now and about a month ago i started studying judo once a week to help my nage and kazushi techs. the judo study has helped tremendously on a number of levels and has definately provided me with much insight on why we do what we do in DZR. (not to mention strengthening my faith in DZR)

-judo has helped me develope my intuitive fighting skills and slowed things down mentally. "brain block" is far less a factor than it used to be. my composure and focus when forced to think on my feet have increased greatly. judo has also been a great exercise in the principal of "ju", teaching me to flow from one technique to the next without trying to force one specific strategy and to give up ones that i've lost. also judo is such a heavy workout that it forces you to figure out how to fight efficently (or you'll be done half way through practice).

-on the other hand, as rough as judo is i still see the areas it lacks in as a fighting style. when i play judo i see a ton of openings and possible attacks, which sometimes gets me trouble since i'm still learning the rules. and many of the players aren't even aware of these techniques since they don't apply to winning competitions. but it's only a small leap from judo to jujutsu (until you get to the weapons and upper level arts)

for me judo is a relatively safe way to practice many of the principles and techniques of jujutsu. and in the short time i've been training in it, my jujutsu skills have increased quite a bit.

[Kamuii]

Greetings! :)

Well in my experience, when I was studying at the university, I was part of the Judo team for inter-university competitions. There was the team class and the regular class offered for all students as an elective course. Well, some people got into it to learn self defense. At the time I had my Black Belt in other arts, one of them Jujutsu. The people who wanted self defense were a little uncomfortable because the class was more sport oriented than self defense oriented if it ever was. So I asked my Judo Sensei permission to give a little self defense oriented class on Judo for those interested in self defense. He said yes and we set the date for the class. A lot of people were not aware of how effective and dangerous a Judo technique could be on the streets. I taught them how to adapt the technique when someone issued a strike at them, since mostly in the class it was a lot of grabbing. Also I taught them how to defend yourself when you were grabed in another place that was not the your top, belt or wrist, like the hair or neck. They were suprised when they learned how devastating the techniques really are. Just imagine a Seoi Nage done and having your opponent fall flat on his back on the cement sidewalk or street and having his lungs colapse. Or maybe doing a Morote Seoi Nage and instead of letting the person fall on his back, you do han-tachi as you throw and you let him fall straight down on his head...um? Or doing an O Soto Gari and driving the back of your opponent's head directly into the concrete floor. Real devastating indeed... These are some examples...

Hope this helps. :smilejapa

Best,

Arnold Vargas
Genbukan Satoichi Dojo
&
Tsunami-Ryu Bujutsu

[MarkF]

I do not know of any Judoka that trains Judo as a "fighting art" only, without any concern for the sportive side, i mean, nowadays.

I only quote this, not to argue, but to answer the question implied. There are many especially these days who teach judo for the fighting and self-defense prospecitve, than there were in the "old days" or traditional judo days.

There seems to be a renewed interest in judo kata, and kata teahers/coaches, there are. Yes, Kodokan Judo touches on many aspects nearly completely absent from most curricula of judo. Ko shiki no kata is one form, originally done in armor. Kime no kata today is taught as "old" judo self-defense, and Kodokan goshin jutsu is taught ("new" self defense arts) at all dojos I know of. But there is a difference from teacher and coach. A coach has the job of teaching judoka how to win in international or Olympic judo. The coach is generally going to teach about seven to twelve nagewaza, three katami/osaekomiwaza, three chokes, and three or more elbow joint locking techniques.

But while this is definitely teaching how to win, what isn't considered is that to win you must fight, and that means you must know how to react to a situation of two, or one on one confrontations. While I have no problems with judo, the "combative sport," I do have a problem when oversimplifying judo as "only" a sport or contest. All koryu had contest as challenge matches and were very common, and why some techniques are so similar. The "new" Japan (restoration), having banned weapons and the martial aspects, created a stumbling block for jujutsu schools, and as a result the contests grew at an alarming rate, so while sport may be new, relatively speaking, the contests themselves are as old as the ryu themselves, but the ryuha of jujutsu were dying, and so the Kodokan jujutsu was born. This became an amalgam of jujutsu, with the danger removed from these contests so that one could participate and come back another day, hopefully uninjured.

If you look inside Kodokan judo, you will notice a number of contributors, and those so marked are long dead, so Kano really didn't write this book. Others, along with Kano helped to put together a syllabus, and, at the same time, one in which any who wanted, could join. Etc., Etc.

Certain kata were arranged to be productive in a variety of ways: to help save jujutsu ryu from certain death, also to put together a series of waza for randori, which is what most thing is the "play" part of judo, and kata, which was removed from radndori, but not from judo. It was relegated to "kata only" as most could not be done without inherent problems of serious injury, but most do teach kata, at least that is the only way I know, but probably limit it to certain kata, ie, kime no kata and goshin jutsu no kata, which was added to the syllabus in the original publication of Kodokan Judo "by" Jigoro Kano in 1958.

Anyway, that is a broad description, so those who wish, please add that which I have ommitted or forgotten. To state the entire syllabus, or even all reasons judo exists at all, would take research and time, but I am glad some have taken the time to do the research. Page by page can bring a new meaning. Here are some sites on which to study or read about judo history: http://www.bstkd.com/judo.htm , http://judoinfo.com , and http://www.concentric.net/~budokai . For the Olympic judo, try http://www.ijf.org . For some great articles and particularly pre-war judo in the US, try http://ejmas.com . You can research anything in "kronos" but for the articles concerning judo, click on Electronic Journal of combative sports.

Mark

BTW: Out of all studied martial arts, judo has the most injuries. Why this may be, is conjecture, but it could be because judo, as a participant activity, is the second most popular in the world, behind only football (soccer).

[yamatodamashii]

In answer to the question of anyone teaching Judo as a fighting art: In February of 1999, while I was on Okinawa, I met a rokudan (whom I only remember as "Bob"... sorry) who had started the Traditional Judo Association. I'm not sure what made him come to Okinawa for any amount of time; he had originally come to Japan to start studying the ryuha from which Kano composed Judo (and had spent time studying Yudo in Korea, as well).
He was trying to return to the original system of Judo, where atemi waza were a major part of the curriculum and randori was only 1/3 of the practice.

In reference to muto dori--I have an objection to one of the muto dori techniques found in Kime no Kata (based solely on the two weeks I worked out with "Bob"). This particular technique involves blocking a sword draw by putting your hand on your opponent's forearm, stepping around him, and then contolling him.
As I demonstrated to him, this is a good way to get your arm broken... You should put your hand on the sword, instead of his arm.

Of course, it's fairly academic considering that no one carries swords anymore, but it makes me wonder what else has crept into the kata?

[MarkF]

Hi, Jason,
Another priece of advice for Bob would be to change it from traditional to original. Original judo, that which predates 1895, and to include the first syllabus that year, was original. Don't forget. Most of the waza from then is from the various ryuha, so traditional judo is post 1895 until after the war, about 1948.

One of the reasons for dropping such waza really wasn't for modern reasons. It was dropped for the reasons you say, but that happens to all budo. Kano taught a lot of that kata, if not most, to the female members of the Kodokan, as they were barred from randori, and technically, still are, at least as far as the Kodokan is concerned. I suspect he hadn't worked the "kinks" out yet.:)

Also, check out the Kano Society. They are preserving traditional judo, as the name implies, and this too, includes kime no kata, ko shiki no kata (without the armor) and shiai. That is what was originally taught. It is a new site, but Trevor P. Leggett was with them at the time of his death, August 1, 2000.

I would check out more than Kodokan judo, as there were a variety by 1920. M. Kawaishi wrote "The Seven Kata of Judo" which included "go no sen no kata," one, not to this day, is included in the Kodokan syllabus, but go no sen no waza is. This came from Waseda University, more than likely.

Website address is http://www.kanosociety.org .

Mark





[Edited by MarkF on 10-20-2000 at 05:20 AM]

[yamatodamashii]

I seriously doubt that I'll ever run into him again, but thanks for the outstanding info!

[efb8th]

Hi, Everybody.

The use of contest is not the problem. The emphasis of sport and only sport in the modern Olympic Judo movement is, like all examples of excess, what is wrong with the Olympic agenda as it pertains to martial art.

Like many of you, I started in the '60s, when Ippon was the goal of shiai: not just winning, but winning decisively and cleanly with no questions remaining.

Training was divided, in those days, into three areas in our dojo: waza and kata training (the "Nuts and Bolts" of the art); randori (free practice for conditioning and trying out what we learned in an environment of simulated contention); and shiai (contest to the "symbolic death" against a stranger who wants only to beat you and survive).

All three phases of training were important, but for different reasons. The kata and waza training (our school taught Kodokan Judo and Dan Zan Ryu) gave us the full spectrum of attack and defense techniques: Kansetsu waza (vs. all joints, not just the elbow); Nage waza (including kane basami [DZR "Kane Sute"]and other non-contest throws);
Shime waza (including Dho Jime and smothers); Osae waza (including face-down controls and other non-contest aplications); punches, kicks and blocks (both singly and in pairs) usually during warm-ups; and Atemi (usually reserved for brown belts and above, and generally the few considered "most effective and easiest to use" about twelve of the "Kano 70").

With these "building blocks" in mind, we did randori, often "specialized" for the techniques we had studied: "Back-to back" if we were working on ne-waza; "Nage only" if we were working on throws, etc. This randori included light-contact sparring options at times, and was not intended as contest-only training, as we were using many waza prohibited for contest. As far as I can remember, there was never any trouble with "crossing over" into shiai. (Everyone knew what was legal in contest, and we didn't resort to "forbidden" waza "in the heat of battle.")

Shiai gave us a chance to take out our limited bag of tricks and use it, full force, against a resisting opponent. When you go into contest, you come out knowing if your waza has improved since last time or not! The training aspect is that even though your techniques are limited, the principles behind those techniques are the same as those that underlie the "serious arts" (like ogoshi won't hurt if you take it clear to the sidewalk!) and performance in shiai is a good indicator of progress in the full training spectrum. There is no substitute for contention-testing. The beauty of Judo contest as a training tool, however, is that it enabled us to have more "bouts" than Musashi, without suffering any greater defeat than "ippon." And we knew how to fall!

The point of all this railing is this: Judo is a martial art; contest is a training method. When we concentrate on how to win in contest and make that our sole criterion for success, we give up our martial relevance and lose much of what JUDO was meant to be.

Regards,

[kusanku]

Ed said it, Mark said it, others have said it- Judo is a martial art.

Kano Seventy- anywhere those are published?I only got a few of those myself.Kobushi ate, tegatana and so on, kicking, knees, etc.Other than what is in the katas of course.

'Course in Kempo and karate, are many atemi waza.Still, I like to compare.

My two cents on Ed's comment, 'like o goshi isn't going to hurt if you take it to the sidewalk." Broken tailbone, anyone?

Thing is, one time a guy showed up at a karate black belt worout, by which I mean all the Black belts in one town Terre Haute, had a sort of interdojo kai going. We divided our training into three parts, kata, kumite and concepts.

Duing the kumite a guy showed up, who was a sort of streetfighter, boxer, you name it, and offered to take anyone on, contact, put on some gloves , and go for it.

he was a bit of a boxer, and could also kick some , though he did'nt need to, he cleaned up two or three guys pretty quick.Then he focussed on me.

I discouraged him, let us say, and he declined to mix it with me under the terms I stated, no gloves and no rules.:D He didn't like something he saw, I don't know what, except I wasn't going to box with gloves on and get my head handed to me.

I wanted the hands for grabbing and pulling down techniques, which he did not like the idea of.And said so, and left it at that, but he was still giving the glare, if you know what I mean, aaa raaa.:-)

We went to have some refreshment afterwards, and the head instructor of the club we were in says to the uy, 'by the way, John's a Brown Belt in Judo, too', and the streetfighter goes white as a sheet, sputters out half his drink, and says, 'I didn't know that!I bet you could really use that on the street , couldn't you?'

I though about it a second and replied, thinking of harai goshi,'Yes, when you take a guy, spin him through three hundred and sixty degrees like a top, and slap him down on his head, hips or back on the curb, the fight's pretty much over.'

The glare dissappeared like magic and the offer to try it on was never repeated.

This guy ate karate black belts for breakfast, but when he found out there were judoka in the neighborhood, he wanted no part of them, no matter what their rank.

Now I am not saying karate is inneffective, I do karate, but boxers do not fear karateka, they owever hate the thought of taking on judoka, jiujitsu players or wrestlers with a purple passion, as it is known in the game that this is a sucker bet.So to speak.

And of course, to do him justice, he was a middleweight, and I am not, by any stretch of the imagination.:D

[Edited by kusanku on 10-21-2000 at 08:24 PM]

[Ryu]

Hello, everyone.

I suppose I just wanted to add my 2 cents here, and as always let it be known that I am not by any means a high ranking judoka. I cross train in the style as well as BJJ, etc. :)

But from some of my actual self-defense encounters, it has always been my base in grappling that has helped me through.
Yokoshihogatame, and ude garami protected me from a guy trying to handcuff me during a "hazing". I was hit in the back a bit, but was able to get back to my feet, fight a little more, and get away. If not for my knowledge of ground fighting I would have been on the bottom with no way to escape.

During another fight, It was a takedown, judo-style breakdown, tateshihogatame, and a threatened pummeling that stopped it. Judo, and just about any grappling art gives you the ability to stop a fight without really hurting anyone seriously. That, in my opinion, is the epitome of skill as a martial artist.

So I would definately state that judo has extreme potential as a fighting art. Especially if it is cross trained with others.

Take care,
Ryu

[efb8th]

Mr. Vengel,

The last publication of the "Kano 70" was in Hancock & Higashi's THE COMPLETE KANO JIU-JITSU (JIUDO)in 1938. After that, the Japanese were engaged in a war with the allies, and propaganda was very bitter and ethnocentric, as wartime propaganda tends to be. After the war, the Atemi were buried (for public consumption anyway) and judo was sold as a sport whose main aim is to promote peace, goodwill and brotherhood in the world (which while true, is a very one-sided view of the truth).

In fact, you will find that in books published after 1960 in Japan, or written by Kodokan experts for western consumption, the foreword always begins something like this: "Many people, when one mentions Judo, think of a small man felling a large, skilled, fighter with a single deadly 'chop' to the back of the neck. In actuality, there could be nothing farther from the truth. Judo is a sport used for contest between Judo men, who wear special clothing and are trained to fall for the purpose of safety..."

When Dover Publications did the reprint in 1961, they replaced atemi and katsu with the following disclaimer:

"The Dover edition, first published in 1961, is an unaltered republication of the work originly published by G.P. Putnam's Sons in 1905, except that the last two sections (26 pages) on serious and fatal blows and kuatsu, the restoration of life, have been omitted because their use to the public is doubtful, and they do not affect the overall value of the book."

That is balderdash, of course, as the asking price of the '61 book is around $40 and the asking price of the 1938 book is $300. So much for overall value of the book! Koizumi published about a dozen atemi, as did Illustrated Kodokan Judo (1955 ed.), and E.J. Harrison and Bruce Tegner, but the last full list was in Hancock & Higashi ('38). In fact, most Judo texts have atemi (publication dates prior to 1970), but they are often only pictures with no explanation, or a list of six to nine obvious blows and no striking instructions. Face it: Kano considered the atemi waza to be KUDEN (Oral transmission arts), and didn't want them published in any more than their rudimentary phases because they were the SECRET ARTS OF JUDO! Every jujutsu school has its "initiates," those who have been "let in" on the Kuden of the system. Judo's initiates learn Atemi and Katsu.

Regards,

[efb8th]

Well, here I go again.

While I'm at it, the KUATSU (as listed in the text) are seven in number with from 2 to 6 "phases" in each. They are currently to be found in Dan Zan Ryu jujitsu (with a few postural changes for uke), and since Okazaki went to Japan in 1922 to study at the Kodokan and was graded Sandan there, it would be rational to think that he got these (and several others) in Japan and brought them back for incorporation into his system. It is also possible that he learned them in Hawaii, where he practiced Judo as a young man. In fact, the more I practice and study the old Kodokan system, the more I am convinced that the Dan Zan Ryu system is a very significant repository of Kodokan arts as practiced in the 1920's.

Evidence of this is shown in the 1955 "Illustrated" in the discussion of maximum efficiency in the introduction. Two arts which currently survive in Okazaki's "Yawara" list are used to illustrate the topic. Also, Shozo Kuwashima's book "Forty-one Lessons in the Modern Science of Jujitsu" contains many arts from the present day Okazaki System, and he was a Kodokan Godan, who moved to Chicago in the late twenties or early thirties. And there are many other occurances of Kodokan waza in Dan Zan Ryu--perhaps the most notable in recent works is the "Goshin Ho" forms of women's self defense, published in Pat Harrington's (6d) JUDO: a pictorial manual (Tuttle, 1992).

My point is that if you happen to be studying DZR, you are likely studying at least a few arts (and perhaps very many) that Master Okazaki learned from his trip to the Kodokan in 1922.

I'll shut up now.

[kusanku]

Ed posts:'I'll shut up now.'

I'm glad you said what you did, I had no idea where to find the Kano Seventy Atemi, or that there were that many.

I have been very impressed with the DZR site you gave me the url for, and the mokuroku descriptions contained thereon, which do have a number of atemi and some really good defense(goshinjutsu type) techniques, as well.

I had the after 1960 version of the Hancock and Higashi Kano Jiujitsu Book, without the atemi in it,although I did once own a 1906 early book they wrote that had some, and also some kuatsu .

We got taught, in Judo in the Sixties, some basic atemi and counters, and some kuatsu, not as much as what you have described however.

Most of my atemi knowledge comes from Okinawan forms of martial arts,shorin ryu, Kempo and so forth, and in these, those above a certain grade, and who may be senior students or so on, are in fact initiated into the secret arts, which turn out to be throwing, lockng and points and nerve and meridian attacks, which are appications of the karate kata.

In short, the secrets of kaate are jiujitsu, and the secrets of jiujitsu are karate.I presume the atemi is taught in Judo according to the meridian acupuncture theory, and that makes it somewhat the similar approach.

To me, the biggest thing karate people don't know, is the directions and methods of unbalancing, and some know tai sabaki while some do not.

The biggest thing judoka don't know is that Judo is a martial art:-), and the biggest thing jiujitsu people may not know,though most of the DZR guys are Judoka as well,but I mean like the BJJ and so forth, is that Judo can improve their throwing skills, and so on, while karate can improve the atemi skills and aikido the joint manipulation drills.

As for Aikido,and so forth, this appears to be an example of a lot of training focused on a few principles.
Mainly the joint attack approach, or the joint manipulation, seems stressed, and this is good, but some of their attacks in hombu style seem unrealistic.I mean, not really shot for.

But anyway, the Kano Seventy, atemiwaza, now I know where they were , and perhaps can later find them for comparison.I did have a judoka from Hong Kong, show me the judo method of atemi, which is a sharp twisting snapping type of blow.

Later I found this identical to the type used in Matsubayashiryu Shorinryu.

Make what you will of that, Mr. Nagamine, founder of that art, was also a shodan at least, in Judo.From back in the Thirties at least.

And to be complete, he was also a kendoka.

[Parmenion]

A while ago , some time last year, on the OLD e-budo (lol)I posted a topic on similar grounds as this one. Since then I have floated to a few places apart from my Judo and Aikido , mainly to do Tai Chi for 7 months or so , before I ended up at the freestyle place listed below (although I should change the sig seeing as my teacher no longer bothers with grades and such). I think its come to the poiint that for the average Judoka, if you want to complete yuour training in Martial Arts, you should seek some place to learn a form of Atemi-waza.
Having said so ... I was sparring with a young lad before my Aikido class a ocuple of weeks ago , bundles of energy that we are, and after a while , I found I was only thinkning punch/kick and forgot to grapple. So , I jumped at him (yes actually jumped ..) and immediatly did O-Soto-Gari the minute I landed. He was so suprised, the first he knew of it was on the ground in Kesa-gatame :) Not that I am recoomending a flying O-Soto-Gari as a good street technique though :)

[Tom Douglas]

Great thread to follow! Thanks to all the contributors.

Many people are probably already familiar with the aikido developed by Tomiki Kenji, based on his extensive judo background. Mr. Kano sent Mr. Tomiki to study with Ueshiba Morihei, where after several years of study in the 1930s, he was awarded 8th dan. In subsequent decades, Mr. Tomiki worked out a "judo-style" curriculum of aikido study, including randori. He also developed a kata specifically oriented towards self-defense, and training in unbalancing of the opponent.

A number of American judoka work intensively with Tomiki-style aikido with an eye towards developing its self-defense aspects. Two websites that may be of interest to people in this respect are http://www.jiyushinkai.org (Chuck Clark Sensei's website) and http://www.karlgeis.com (Karl Geis Sensei's website).

Yes, I know these are aikido sites, but the respective teachers have built on their judo background and discuss the self-defense principles in some depth.

Tom Douglas

[Arashi]

Hi all.

Ok, i believe we all agree that Judo is a superb martial art in a non sportive context too, all you have to do is train it this way. Now about Aikido, and i am sorry, i know this is the Judo thread, etc, but to make it clear, since i am an Aikido teacher myself: Aikido can be soft but it can also be very very hard and nasty, rest assured about it. IMHO it takes more time for you to masterthe art to a level where you can actually use it in a combat situation than Gracie Jiu Jutsu, all styles of Karate or even Judo, but when you get there, you actually surprise yourself as for how many ways you know to cause pain, maim or kill someone who attacks you. As for the practice, i am a former Judoka and i am proud of the very little Judo i know (i wish i knew more), but training in Aikido is really very much alike as training kata in Judo, in fact it is easier because you do not follow a rigid path as for the number of steps etc as you do in Judo kata. Describing Aikido to judoka that never trained it: in short, it is like training kata in a free way. Ganbatte kudasai.

Toni Rodrigues

[kusanku]

Well, though we are drifting a bit, no very much; I too like the idea of the judoka learning some atemi waza somewehre, since the Kodokan don't just teach that to everyone anymore, maybe never did after 1930's.

As for Aikido's effectiveness, yes, in seven years or so of Aikido training, if self defense is your desire, you can become quite proficient, as long as you remember atemi and that it is ok to use some power in a real situation.Is my thought on tis, but as our Aikido Instrucor said, it really does take longer than in karate or judo.

Okay, let's look at a few ways to make judo a fighting art for judo kyu ranks.

One, emphasize defensive tai sabaki, two, teach the use of the hand sweep to kicks and punches, three, teach the goshinjutsu no kata to kyu ranks(hey,who's it for anyway? Judo masters?), and four,teach some basic atemi for distracting as you enter.

Emphasize the importance and ease, as well as the effectiveness, of most ashi waza,use the more combat effective variants of throws, i.e.,grb behind anywhere on o goshi, use morote seioinage to tangle his other arm into yours when you throw,use sode tsurikomigoshi, and when applicable and you have a soft opponent to land on:D, makikomi variants of any forward throws.

I particularly reccomend concentration on o soto gari, o uchi gari, and ko chi gari, and for the Big Drop, use the Gake on those.

Aganst a running attacker, sidestep and tai otoshi.

Against a grabbing attack try a standing arm bar, ude hishigi or waki gatame should do, or even the haragatame.

All these can be learned effectively enough in a matter of a couple of months.

Remember not everyone wants or needs to be an expert, just enough to defend themselves. Judo used to be taught this way, as self defense.Heavy on the atemi, but you really only need a few for basic defense.

But doggone, seventy of them , I had no idea!I must investigate further to see if I can find an old edition of this book.Preferably on-line.

[MarkF]

I came across a site named "aikijudo" last year, but I have not been able to find it, lately.

Actually, posting anything of aikido on the judo forum is no problem as basically, they are the same thing. Probably, the only difference is that there are so many aikido styles which confuses many, and the shodokan (Tomiki) stylist seems to need to defend his/herself, eg, "Yes, I do Tomiki style" as some seem to disapprove of the shiai/randori type waza incorporated. The judoka must defend judo as "judo is just a sport" etc.

But judo being easier to learn? Well, that depends on how far you are willing to go to learn all there is of judo. Personally, I have no problem with judo being called a sport. There is no sin here, but its martial applications are there, the basics of both are similar,so someone with a base in either will find the other somewhat easier, as there all ready is a basis for it.

Gracie jiu-jitsu IS submission judo. There is little difference, with such in submission only, but it was originally taught as Kodokan Jiu-jitsu. The groundwork is emphasised because nage waza counts for little. The idea is for one to submit and most is done on the ground.

But judo as a martial art? Why, the idea.:mad: But if you hang on a while, you will come across the ken no kata, ko shiki no kata (kito ryu), etc. Judo originally had two purposes. Number one was to save ryu of jujutsu from dying a slow death. This was a hand up which Kano offered. The other was to make it available to anyone who wanted to do it, in particular, those who had no other training. But lest you forget, the original members of the Kodokan were jujutsuka, which was done under a certain rule of "mutual welfare." If Kano had wanted to begin a new school, then why is it called "Kodokan?"

There also seems to be a trend in many schools of aikido which have somehow de-emphasised atemiwaza, as judo has, but the waza is not gone, with time restraints and such, something must be temporarily sacrificed for the good of the art. Atemiwaza is one-third of the judo syllabus. I would say that it is probably similar in aikido. Tomiki Kenji did not rule out atemi either. Simply, with the rule of randori and shiai, it had to be relegated to another place; kata. And in both, atemi is another avenue to kuzushi, IMO.

You know, there may be a good discussion had on these two MA.:up:

Mark

[Arashi]

Hi all.
Mark, i did not say Judo is easier to learn tham Aikido, what i said is that it takes longer for anyone to be able to use Aikido as a self-defense tool than other arts, Judo included. And being a Judoka for a long time as i know you are, you know what i am talking about. Let's suppose you and i are going to give a "self-defense clinic" to people that never trained any kind of martial art. You can devise lets say, 10 waza of Judo that you think are ideal for self defense and i will do the same with Aikido, we will set up things and proceed training this for, lets say, two weeks. I bet that at the end those guys will know better how to perform the Judo waza than the Aikido waza. That is it. I am not saying that it doesn't actually take years for you to achieve the quality of the Judo waza that we see in the Kyuzo Mifune pictures. You see Mifune performing a seoi nage and it is poetry in motion, but then again, you saw Jimmy Cagney doing a good enough seoi nage ("Blood on the sun") the other day, didn't you? As for atemi, both in Aikido and Judo, i couldn't agree more with you, specially in Aikido, it is the way to kuzushi. As for it not being much practiced in Judo, it is true, we seldon see it, in Aikido it is practiced a lot in some dojos and not at all in some others. I practice with the man that introduced Aikido in Brazil, and you know, this is the land of Gracie Jiu Jitsu and it was very common on the old days (it really still is) that some guys would come in to "test" this aikithing, so my teacher always placed a lot of importance on Atemi (when he oppened the school, the man who introduced Shotokan Karate here, Mitsusuke Harada, was departing to Europe and he adviced Kawai Sensei that brazilians would only respect him if he kicked the hell out of them), on top of that, before joining Aikido, and after my Judo days, i trained Karate for almost 6 years, so i do put a lot of focus on Atemi, but, sometimes, i really feel it gets on the way of smooth technique and it somehow makes the movement less beautifull than it should be, so i totally understand why some do not put an enphasis on it. And in Judo, you do not have to use atemi to unbalance your uke, so i believe people tend to practice it just when doing kata. What do you think? Ganbatte.

Toni Rodrigues

[William F. Kincaid]

Well friends I did not want to post on this particular discussion due to, like the gentleman above, posted all I knew on the almost identical discussion thread on the old E-budo.
I live in an area of the US, Parkersburg/Vienna WV., to be honest. Here people are interested in only 3 things work, sleep, and eat. Judo competitiions and the like just don't draw students so I had to shift the focus of judo from shinai to a more self defensive type focus,(My classes are still small 5 on good days 0 on most).

In the Beginning this presented a problem. I was taught sport judo, the only self defense tech. I got were from the Nage-no-Kata, so it was safe to say my self defense was rather limited. So I fell back on some of the rudimentry tech. the Army taught me All three of them (believe it or not the Army doesn't teach hardly any self defense tech. anymore), I got with my Aikido Sensei (Karl Geis Aikido) he taught me alot of self defense tech., I picked apart the more advanced Katas of Judo (Interesting side note has anyone ever noticed the more advanced the kata gets in Judo the more on Self defense it tends to focus upon?),and finally I turned towards a art of through some friends of mine called Miyama Ryu Jujutsu. The founder of this art Has extensive knowledge in Judo, Aikido, and Karate and his tech. seems to be simple enough that it makes it good to be taught to Kyu grades. So all in all it is still a rough road to walk, I still have the rules for sport Judo in my class minus the dumb ones (but that is another post) but they are mainly used for who buys the beer that night at Hooters.lol.

[Bridger Dyson-Smith]

Gentle Sirs (& Ma'ams)
After following this excellent thread, I have a question, and perhaps one of you may be able to answer it. Actually, all of you can probably answer it! :D
What would be some good questions to ask a judo sensei, to see if he touches on all the various subject matter you have listed in this thread? I realize that this may be a very arbitrary question. I certainly don't want to be rude (to you or to him), so...maybe someone can help?
Thanks very much for your time, and thanks for all the great posts. It's a treat to get to read all of them.

Thanks again,
Bridger Dyson-Smith

[Bridger Dyson-Smith]

oops!
Sorry. I suppose I should say that I have absolutely no experience with judo at all. I have studied a very little aikido, but have been looking for something that emphasizes more physical conditioning/development. The gentleman I was hoping to approach is/was the sensei for the Wichita State judo club. Because it was a collegiate club, I didn't know if he may emphasize the sport element more. Anyhow, thanks very much again!

Bridger Dyson-Smith

[kusanku]

Hey, this is getting good, all right.

First, what questions to ask a Judo sensei: Does he teach for self defense, or only sport? Can he teach you the self defense parts as you also learn the sport and basic judo?Will he? Does he?

Does he teach judo kata, and when? Does he teach judo kata with opponent resisting and able to counter if you don't do your defense waza correctly?

Does he know the Kano Seventy? :D (Bonus question?

For your Aikido teacher:Does he teach the use of real atemi in self defense? Is he Tomiki or Yoshinkan style? Those two are really well suited for self defense, BECAUSE THEY USE LOTS OF ATEMI.

I guess I meant the same thing as Arashi meant, that Aikido takes longer to do as self defense than judo or karate.

And Mark, yes, I think we can have a good discussion on these two arts.

I believe with a foundation of judo, then some good Aikido( I am partial to Yoshinkan but like also what Tomiki I have seen), and perhaps just s soupcn of karate, the self defense can be superb.

Now, while I hold no rank in Aikido and wouldn't pass a yellow belt kyu test in any style of it(though I incorporate some of the waza into my other arts with their mechanics behind it) , and have a sankyu in Judo, my karate experience has been, let's say, more complete, such that I have learned the complete syllabi of three styles, one Japanese and two Okinawan, am recognized as a senior practitioner of those arts,sixth dan is my highest grade, and atemi waza and me are really good friends.But from the Okinawan and chinese lineage.

As I mentioned,in some okinawan arts senior students of good character and fourth dan and above are sometimes initiated into the secrets of karate, and I know this because I am one.

So, when we speak of judo as a fighting art, Aikido as a fighting art, atemi waza being one third of judo, and two thirds of aikido, but almost no Judo or aikido people teach in this manner, yet in karate , atemi waza is seventy to ninety to one hundred percent of the technique or syllabus, with jointlocking as much as thirty or as litle as five r no percent, and throwing rarely more than five to someimes ten percent of the syllabus.

You will respond as you train, in self defense, the first response will be the most practiced nine times out of ten.


The common thread between karate, judo and aikido, is tai sabaki.If you practice for self defense, first practice tai sabaki, and here I would like to say that the aikido method of tai sabaki is to me, superior at the beginner level to the beginner levels of either judo or karate.

Since judo beginners do tai sabaki to set up a throw or after they lock on, this limits their self defensive use of it, though admittedly the can throw the attacker. Tradeoff.

In karate, beginners may not use tai sabaki at all, but stand their ground and block and counter with a punch or strike or kick.

But in real self defense, blocking or redirecting is important, but taisabaki is as much or moreso.

Judoka and karateka learn to defend themselves more quickly, though, than aikidoka; what causes the discrepancy?

I believe the aikidoka have superior evasive footwork at beginner level but not as good redirective skills, and the counter techniques are not set up as wellby the excellent tai sabaki, where the judoka goes in, locks on , unbalances and takes down, and the karateka blocks or doesn't:D and counters hard and fast, hurting the attacker.

Because the aikido beginner is not, except in a few schools,including the two named above, taught to really do atemi as they taisabaki.

Now in Judo, if from beginner, they were taught to atemi as well as tai sabaki and kuzushi , that would make judo training even better for self defense,

And if in karate we taught( I do) taisabaki and kuzushi to beginners, they would be better,

and if in Aikido,the beginners were taught atemi as you tai sabaki and also leg work(ashiwaza) which was taught in the original Daito ryu, they would be better, at the beginner level,at self defense.


As for judo and aikido being almost the same, they are certainly compatible, and old style karate is not foreign to old style jiujitsu or aikijujitsu either.

I think such a discussion can be very productive.

Each art has much to teach the others and much to learn from them.



[Edited by kusanku on 10-24-2000 at 06:39 PM]

[Bridger Dyson-Smith]

Mr. Vengel
Thanks a lot! I really appreciate your help. Very kind of you.

Bridger Dyson-Smith

[MarkF]

I suppose that comment is akin to saying "sometimes, animals are people, too."


Hi all.
Mark, i did not say Judo is easier to learn tham Aikido, what i said is that it takes longer for anyone to be able to use Aikido as a self-defense tool than other arts, Judo included.

I won't say who said this so if you don't remember, read all the posts again.:D

In this friendly disagreement, I was answering the previous post, but the meaning isn't found in which is easiest or hardest, closer to SD or far off from learning SD, my point is just that it is there from the first lesson on, as a natural life or death struggle for survival is all ready there. My point simply is not to discount or make statements which can be true on any given day or on any given group of people. Simply, we are speaking of different paths up the same mountain.

Aikido and judo are the same thing because they are both taijutsu types of fighting arts, but certainly, even one who has never seen either will probably see the difference if exposed to both for a given amount of time. My interest in aikdio is the shodokan school because I can indentify with it. I identify with randori and shiai, whether you consider this "sport only," or another manner of bettering yourself and your opponent(s) in self-defense or winning a medal. Either way, you do learn self-defense. It is as much a part of judo, and has just as much built-in self-defense technique. If one were to enter shiai competition and didn't know any SD, he/she would in a hurry, and naturally. The same may be said of aikido randori, as those techniques for the randori mat are referred to as randori no kata. In other words, kata is how either is learned. Some may have differing reasons for getting involved and differences can be as wide as from person to person or school to school.

There is a school of judo, kosen, which is entirely waza of the go no sen type. A counter technique is met with another counter, and so on. There is nothing wrong with this at all, but it has fallen short as fast as interest in it was popular at one time. Some teach only goshin jutsu no kata because the judo there is strictly being taught for modern SD techniques and centering there.

Some schools teach judo as "martial art" only and have no interest, as their students, in shiai, randori (to an extent), or anything which smacks of any competition.

This is probably most true of aikido, but since I lack much experience, I say it in terms of judo, and karate? You can go to the Kodokan and learn karate. The Kodokan is kind of a melting pot with its center based in traditional judo. They do have classes and teachers of other martial arts. One may take "randori only" judo, another may take a kata study, or both, or all three. It really depends on financial reasons, for those who are going specifically to study Kodokan judo and other arts. If you live there and work, you may study as much as your time permits. This school is not kojudokan, it is the Kodokan or "the school, hall, place of the ancient way. Pretty nifty for a school which is sportified, syllabus built post-1868 and where contests are a primary way of learning.:p

So what is traditional judo, or traditional aikido for that matter? Most people, including judoka, think this means all kata is taught, competition or the sporting part is out, so judo comes down to kata, atemi no jutsu, etc., the way of those whose base was in different schools of jujutsu. Those I know who are old enough to go back to prewar judo say no, this isn't traditional judo, it may be origninal, but traditional judo is shiai and randori. What is being renewed, such as what is happening in koryu, is getting back to the "real" stuff. There is a renewed interest in it today, so those who cannot, say, do a 'te art and judo, are looking to original atemi, saying they want it all. Well, if you've got a lifetime to spare, you stand a chance of doing it, but if you want traditional judo, you must include randori and shiai (this does not leave out kata, but puts a different twist on it. If you truly want to learn self-defense in a hurry, it may be better to take a class labeled as such, and forget any particular Japanese martial art.
The point is only this. You may not think you are learning self-defense but you are, from the very first minute of any class, but putting it squarely on SD, is more than most can comprehend, take in, so atemi, the "secrets," etc., are there in judo (omote and ura are not so different in daito ryu). You just have to give it a chance. After thirty-seven years, I'm finding much more than I had ever thought but because it was the shiai circuit which held my intersts for twenty-odd years does not make my judo any less effective in the real world, it simply makes me a student again.

I would say the same, btw, for aikido, or karate, or just about any of them, but I have to put it in a perspective I understand and can convey.

Hey, Ed Burgess, where are you?:wave:

Please continue this thread. It is worth it, believe me.

Mark

[MarkF]

Hi, Bridger,
I meant to say something on your post, but I rant a lot, so you have my permission to skip all (my) posts and come down here:)

Colleges and Universities generally, probably mostly, have great judo programs, some even have MA or judo for class credit. I would check it out, even taking a class or two before you sign up. Everyone has his/her own reasons for doing it and yours is perfectly fine. In fact, in the US, the two best judo programs I've seen reside in colleges, one is San Jose State (California) and "Big Sky Judo" at Montana. To learn more, Big Sky has one of the best websites if you are interested in technique and history. Try: http://bstkd.com/judo.htm

Mark

[kusanku]

First of all, Bridger, you are quite welcome.

Secondly, Great post,Mark. I agree with you completely, and as a matter of fact, in my Judo days, I enjoyed randori and shiai, it was in karate I developed a great disliking for it for a number of reasons,having to do with techniques that were unworkable in SD being scored ippon and others which would have flattened oppoent's being called flurries or over- aggressive.'

Then the contact karate boom came in, and everyone ups with Boxing Gloves, and boxing punches, and lousy kicks, except Bill Wallace who has really good ones:-), and I thought to myself, where's the Beef?:D

Then the Wing Chun guys come in a clobber everyone with the gloves.Take some advice, if you wear the gloves, learn to box for real, it helps a ton.

But I'm asking, if karate is so dang good, why are the wing chun and boxing and Thai and Filipino style guys cleaning everyone's clocks?

Years later, the karate and kickboxing and wing chun guys met the Jiujitu and judo and wrestling guys, and asked the same question, serves them right, too.:D

I knew that was going to happen, from Judo.

Karate was supposed to be about these incredibly effective SD techniques, but my Judo was working better, on karateka.:D

Yes, I studied Aikido from a man who taught it for self defense, one Hashimoto Shinji, in Dayton, long enough to learn some basics and combine them with Judo and Nippon Kempo, which is how he taught us;

But still I wondered where was the karate magic I had read and heard of.

So, while I was learning the karate kata, of three different styles, over twenty eight years,I began to notice the presence of undeniable judo footwork and throwing tandoku renshu waza in the karate forms,and later, some of the aiki locks appeared to also be being done, and I thught to myself, 'Say-Holy cats,,. what goes on here, anyway?"

So I began to take those kata apart and look at what was happening in them , from about 1973, and apply the judo knowledge and aikido stuff to them, and sure enough, it appeared the sequences began with a block or interception, or redirecting move, , which had the potential of kuzushi in them,and went to form a complete take down, lock, throw, hold and strike jiujitsu type waza.Every single time, over and over again.

So I blended what I had, and it made it more effective, and suddenly one year after about twenty years of this, one of my teachers showed me what his teacher had shown him, his teacher being a fairly well known Okinawan tenth dan from whom George Dillman once got a few clues, about the inner meanings of kata movements.

What is funny about that is twenty years before, my Shorinryu instructor showed me some of the advanced atemiwaza techniques, and it took me twenty years to figure out how advanced they really were.twenty seven of them, in fact.

Twenty years later my Okinawan Kempo sensei opened the shop and showed me what was on the shelves.

He gave me some keys and it took me a year to put it together,he gave it two ways, one the Okinawan style pure way, with me as the uke, ouch!:-)
and the other, where to find the full blown techniques in other arts so as not to have to reinvent the wheel.

I went and sought more instruction in Aikido, Yoshinkan, and Tai Chi, William C.. Ch'en's style, in both of which I am but the veriest rookie, but what I learned there, I was able to incorporate into my own art(the principles, mainly) and create a lot more effectiveness.


And so, I don't actually need the Judo atemi, have some of them anyway, but for the sake of historical curiosity and interest,only, would like to add them to my bag o' waza..

Yes, you do learn self defense in Judo, basic, randori and shiai, this is how I was taught judo, with self defense actual applications taking up the last fifteen to thirty minutes of the workout, such that over a period of time we learned about three hundred goshinjutsu type waza.

I always tell my friends in karate, 'Everything I need to know for self defense I learned in basic Judo.:-)

But the karate sparring as it has become is not training in self defense, in the Shotokan or open tournaments, either one.Though both have their uses and values.Some can translate to self defense if you have good stance, footwork, timing and strog fast well foccussed technique, but so many do not.

Now in Okinawan Kempo, we fought contact in Kendo armor, that was different indeed, more like Judo in that one with that training knew exactly what his or her waza were capable of.

But that was still a sport form, and the really effective waza were all forbidden.

Those, you learned in kata and bunkai kumite, a delightful activity.

So, far be it from me to decry the effectiveess of randori or shiai, I am a product of both myself,but when the stuff deteriorates to a contest bearing little or no resemblance to even a simulated reality, as it has in much karate today, then I must demur.

True two person kata practice must have an element of resistance from the uke present, but if this is there, then it can have its intended benefit.

As for solo practice, used to do a lot of that in Judo to prepare for shiai, and it seemed to help, because I never got beat, after my first six months, by anyone under Black Belt rank, and it wasn't all that easy for them, even though I was still young and inexperienced. I had great teachers.

Later, when I would, after being in karate for many years, drop in to randori at judo dojo, people would comment on my improved balance, saying, it must be the karate.

Must be, but a lot of karateka I know can't stand against any known judo throw, I know, I've tested the theory many times.:D

It helps to know some of both, but if, as Mark has, you stay in for long enough, you'll eventually get the whole package as I did in karate.

One thing my kempo teacher did, really opened my eyes.He knew I was a judoka so did not waste my time showing me too many of the tuite moves, karate grappling, focussing more on the atemi and just giving the grappling principles, but at one point during the intense training, he rolled me to the mat one handed with kote gaeshi, and did so effortlessly.

That is not that easy to do, to me.He used kyusho on my hand and footwork and tai sabaki in combinaton, and just like that, I was on my back, ippon.

He also struck me on the arm with a knife hand at the beginnng of the training and I went to my knees in horrible agony.That also isn't that easy to do to me.Well it was for him!:-)

He also showed me how to intercept almost any attack that I was humanly quick enough to stop, every time.

And other things as well.

My points being: I can now do all these things too, and more, and that if one stays in one system for long enough, and that SYSTEM HAS IT TO TEACH, ONE MAY ONE DAY BE SHOWN THE WHOLE PACKAGE.

Many promise this who do not have it to give, but the Kodokan, and my system of karate(systems) actually had it to deliver.

So do Tomiki and Yohinkan Aikido, and some Chinese styles.

It doesn't make anyone invincible, but it does give one a heck of an advantage.

Now, what I have been saying on this thread, is that there are certain things which will be of advantage to kyu ranks, in learning a solid foundation of self defense.

I was fortunate in that my first art was jiujitsu, and my second, Kodokan Judo, as those were my foundation,and gave me stuff I could, forgive the expression, fall back on,:D and helped me recognize the potential of karate and aikido, and other arts as well.

At forty-eight, I feel I may have spent too much time on martial arts, but I have enjoyed it thoroughly, and it has helped keep me in shape, don't overtrain, don't take yourself too seriously, and everyone, have fun.:-)

[Edited by kusanku on 10-25-2000 at 02:23 AM]

[MarkF]

Originally posted by Kusanku:


At forty-eight, I feel I may have spent too much time on martial arts, but I have enjoyed it thoroughly, and it has helped keep me in shape, don't overtrain, don't take yourself too seriously, and everyone, have fun.:-)

[Edited by kusanku on 10-25-2000 at 02:23 AM]
__________________
John Genjumin Vengel

This is probably more important than any other aspect of training. Another is: "Use what you know." If you can, use what you know of other MA, most can be worked into what you do.

BTW: John, I've got you by a year.:)

[efb8th]

Right here, Mark,

And 15, 16 and 18 posts back. I tell you, when I figure out how to whip this "godda-gota-werk" thing-- oh, well;-)

The best thing so far I haven't already shot my mouth off on is John's discussion of learning to see bunkai in other arts. Twenty years ago, I would have said "striking arts," but I'm learning how comprehensive Judo is.

In fact, I can't help but believe John's assertion (don't expect a quote at 4:00 AM) that when all is said and done in most arts, no matter where you started, it all becomes Judo in the end. (And, that said, I can hear the rustle of arrows being lifted in the darkness, so it's off to San Jose, 'cause all God's chillun gotta learn English!)

I hope to see your replies sticking in my chair when I get home tonight.

Keep 'em flying--grrreat thread!!

[efb8th]

Oh, yes. There is one more thing. In the Great Tokyo Police Match, S. Yokoyama fought to a draw IN A NON-STOP 55 MINUTE MATCH! (Thanks for the link, Joe.)

I can't help but think it applies to this discussion.

Regards,

[Arashi]

Hi, all.

Just to clarify something about Aikido styles, sorry again for using the Judo thread for it. Aikikai style is for Aikido, what Kodokan is for Judo. It is the name of a school but it ends passing for the name of a "style". Under it you actually find a lot of different ways of learning/teaching Aikido that goes from very soft and spiritual to very hard and realistic, from large movements to short ones, from very internal to very external, and so on, DEPENDING ON THE TEACHER. Yoshinkan has a more standardized practice and so does Tomiki/Shodokan. They are great, but it is not that Aikikai Aikido is this soft art with no Atemi waza and no practical application, that is more dance like, etc. Now, i do not live in the USA and i really do not not Aikikai Aikido in the USA, so i do not know if you only saw a soft approach, but believe me, both Yamada Sensei and Saotome Sensei, that teach in the USA are great teachers and both are able to do a very hard Aikido, if that is the case.
Back to Judo, Mark, i totally agree with you. There was no argument, really between what you said and what i said.
I would like to remember that Tomiki Sensei defined Aikido as "Ramare Judo" (i am not sure if my roman-ji is correct) but that can be translated as "Judo-at-a-distance" and you know something? He was absolutely right. Ganbatte.

Toni Rodrigues

[kusanku]

Hey, we are having fun now.:D

Ed, right on.

Mark, you do indeed have me by a year. Hell bein' old, ain't it?:-)

Toni- yes I have heard things , good things, about Yamada and Saotome sensei, and also about Rinzo Shirate, among a few other hombu stalwarts.

Most Aikikai in the US is taught as a soft art, the New York and Chicago guys are pretty tough though, on't get me wrong.

What seems to have happened is that, postwar in the fifties, the hard style guys went one way, and the soft style and ki no kenkyukai types went another.

This doesn't mean the high ups in anyof them aren't able tofight, it means the emphasis on teaching does differ, from one teacher, and school to another.

hey, look at Tai Chi, people are making big money teaching elderly people tai chifor health only.

These people do not want to fight anyone.

Some Aiki folks( not in Brazil , obviously:D) don't want to know anything about fighting, combat or self defense either, but they wish to become attuned to the Cosmic All.:-)

May they achieve their goal in speedy fashion, says I.

But when all is said and done, it all does return to Judo, don't it?

Ju Do= the way of overcoming through use of softness, suppleness or yielding at the appropriate moment.
Then you slam 'em to the mat, and fold em like a pretzel, with gentleness.:D Yeah, right.:-)

Ai Ki Do= the Way of Harmonizing Energies.Yours and the oppnent's and when you are both going in the same direction, one leading, kapow!But if they give you enny trouble, hey, nonny nonny, you smack 'em right between the eyes, metsubushi.:D Aiki, pure and simple, gotta love it.

Karate Do= The Way of Chinese Hand technique, or the Way of Empty Hand technique, which could and can be anything.For best results, done as aiki or ju theory, cause otherwise, the bigger they are, the harder they hit.:D So you smack em to ditract them, then you fling em, then you lock em, then smack em again, for a complete waza."N' sometimes, you jes' smack 'em.:D

[MarkF]

I think what Toni means by "hard" is not what we meant by being "soft," it is as hard as any other. Being a soft judoka or soft aikidoka, is in the manner of doing. Such as a punch, being thown "softly" and becoming hard at the end. Soft means going with the flow, and only using strength when needed.

Judo started going through the faze of muscling every waza well before the founder's death, and many still do it today. But the realization of what was meant by the way of "ju" is by becoming soft, until the moment when you throw someone through the floor, or lazily letting a punch fly, but hardening just at the extension of the arm, and where and when the punch finds its mark and he flies through the air and puts a hole in the wall.

By rote, karate, jujutsu, judo, aikido must be done with some "hardness" before you understand the principles well, and then one becomes more in tune with the technique, and becomes "soft."

But at the end of the day, if you go home feeling as if you gave your all or more, then that is when it all becomes judo. In other words, and I am paraphrasing Meik Skoss, "when you feel good by training hard that day, it doesn't matter what it is, judo, or koryu, aikido or aikijujutsu." That is when one can let down all pretenseof what the training was, it was all "judo."

Mark

[Bridger Dyson-Smith]

:smilejapa

Mr. Feigenbaum,
Thanks for the info and link to Big Sky. I'll check out Mr. Lynch's school first chance I get. My apologies for not getting a "thanks!" to you quicker. Your help is great.

Bridger Dyson-Smith
"...the furtive work-surfer..."

[Bridger Dyson-Smith]

Mr. Feigenbaum,

I was hoping to ask a favor from you. Would it be possible to confer with you via personal email? I have a few questions regarding martial arts in the Albuquerque area. If this is ok with you, my email is dysonsmithb@yahoo.com. Thanks a lot for your time.

Bridger Dyson-Smith
"...always hearing footsteps in the hall..."

[MarkF]

Bridger,
You should all ready have my response to the PM, but I state it here, in case anyone wants to send a message or email to me, or anyone who hasn't "hidden" their email address.

Of course you can, and I hope I was of some help in finding someone of your past. Also, anyone who has not hidden their email can be emailed directly by going to the profile of that person, or you can use the E-budo system.

Mark

[efb8th]

Hey Mark,

I have a friend who has done Aiki jj, DZR and Judo for over 50 years who explains the "soft" or "gentle" arts in this way when he starts his Yawara clinics: "The Bushi had two basic methods of killing. They considered their weapon arts to be 'hard', and their empty-hand arts to be 'soft'. So in this sense, there is nothing internal or external or 'New Age' about Yawara's brand of 'soft', it is simply killing bare-handed instead of killing with the sword."

Regards,

[MarkF]

Hi, Ed,
That's fine with me. It means our way of fighting has changed, so hard would be go no sen, and soft would be sen no sen. or the other way around, however. It certainly is easier to explain than to continually retranslating the same kanji.

Actually, I think your friend may be right, in time sequence, but also a little too black or white. The direction of Ju has never changed, neither has "go." The hard forms are just not taught as much these days, at least in judo. When I studied with Jack Seki, he too, prefered the "hard" to the soft, but if you ever saw his hanegoshi, you would never know it, based on that throw alone. Then again, he was born and raised in Japan and studied directly under Kano, if you believe him, of course. His brand of jujutsu was just jiu-jitsu, Kodokan style. No ukemi in his classes either, but competition certainly was, as there were trophies everywhere, but no tournaments I ever saw. A while back, around the time of the "software change," someone wrote a post asking about a Zanzo Zeki at Valley Junior College in the San Fernando Valley of Los Angeles. I wrote and got a website dedicated to him (to a degree anyway). If you are interested, the post can be found at the bottom of the jujutsu forum, and I later posted a picture of him. He died in 1998 (His American name was Jack Haywood (he was hapa).

Mark

BTW: There was another up your way, more or less, Frank Atsuo Matsuyama? He died a long time ago (late fifties, I think) but he gave what he called yawara classes, mostly in Colorado, as a Police Chief or Capt. got him out of the way during relocation, and thus became well-known for teaching his brand of "yawara" which also included some karate (I suspect the writer saw atemiwaza and just called it that, but I am not sure). I have gotten a lot of email lately from someone trying to dig up something on him from a pamphlet he wrote or was written for him. As I only recognized the name, I passed this on to Joe S. Does your guy have any training with Matsuyama? He apparently died in California.

[efb8th]

Hi, Mark.

No, my friend T.J. got all his yawara from Professor Bud Estes, co-founder (one of four) of the American Judo & Jujitsu Federation, one of the okazaki groups. It is another link to the Kodokan through DZR; they keep popping up.

Regards,

Ed

PS: Look at me! Senior Member. Kinda makes me want to respect myself a little more.

EB

[Edited by efb8th on 11-06-2000 at 10:50 AM]

[MarkF]

This may be considered thread drift, but I don't care. I'm the moderator.:)

Ed,
Maybe you can sort something out though, as you've been around a lot, lot, lot, longer than I have, but back in the seventies, around the time I left Jack Zeki, or possibly a little later (1970-1972), I read in an almanac of, what was described as a "loosely knit American Ju-jitsu Association" and the source said that was about it as far as jujitsu was concerned, organizationally in the US, in a short piece on judo and its history. Obviously, this was before the organization of the USJJF, and after the AJJF, or is it AJF?

Other than another short hitch in koryu jujutsu, this was the only real contact I found for jujitsu (I suppose this may be called gendai JJ). It went on to describe judo and how it had mainly taken the place of most jujutsu of this variety, etc., etc.

Have you heard of this one? Jack Zeki called his version the California Branch: Jiu-jitsu Federation, as I think I mentioned it in that article, but it may have been edited, I don't know at the moment, and really I was trying to find a link in here somewhere. There is, of course, Seki-ryu, but this was simply judo, in a sort of round-about way. While the one link in there is interesting, Seki's (Zeki) class had no women, although the link suggests otherwise, but I was there.

Anyway, has anyone heard of either? CBJJF (California Branch: Jiu-jitsu Federation) or the apparently secretive American ju-jitsu Association?

I was never all that interested, but the more you post, the more I think Okazaki fits in here somewhere, or knew Jack Haywood (Seki), possibly even were at the Kodokan at the same time. Seki died in 1998 after retiring in 1980 due to his smoking habit.

Mark

BTW: Please, if anyone knows anything, I am becoming a bit of a fanatic so 'fess up.:up:



[Edited by MarkF on 11-07-2000 at 01:22 AM]

[MarkF]

Since Mr. Popie made it something of a topic, me, hitting 1000 posts, I would consider this your first tour, or something equally, uh, fitting. Pretty soon you will be me, sitting at the desk, with bleeding fingers, wiping your brow, after a one-hour nap, just before you go to work.

Seriously, Thanks for the contribution to this forum, and the others. You have made my job easier.:)

Best Regards,
Mark

[efb8th]

Hi, Mark.

Here are the nine DZR groups I know of:

American Jujitsu Institute
American Judo and Jujitsu Federation
Christian JuJitsu Association
Jujitsu America
Shoshin Ryu Yudanshakai
Southern California Jujitsu Association
Kodenkan Yudanshakai
Kodenkan Danzan-Ryu Jujitsu Association
Hawaiian Jiu-Jitsu System

AJI is the original Hawaiian group. AJJF is the oldest mainland organization. SCJA may be what you're looking for, but I'm not familiar with them. Check George Arrington's DZR Jujutsu site for details.

Regards,

[Brian Griffin]

Originally posted by MarkF


Anyway, has anyone heard of ... the apparently secretive American ju-jitsu Association?

[Edited by MarkF on 11-07-2000 at 01:22 AM]

Not all that secretive, actually.

AJA is an "umbrella" organization composed of schools from a variety of JJ styles. George Kirby was the driving force behind it's formation; you may have seen some of his books or magazine articles. Info on AJA can be found at:
http://www.americanjujitsuassociation.org/

George was also a student of Sanzo (Jack) Seki. Although Seki apparently never had a name for his "style," referring to what he did only as "jujitsu," Kirby has chosen the name "Budoshin Jujitsu" for the style he teaches. More info on George Kirby, Jack Seki, & Budoshin Jujitsu can be found at:
http://www.budoshin.com/

You might also want to write to George directly with your inquiries. I also seem to recall that the Ketsugo folks (like Walt Lenoir, Harold Brosious et al.) had some connection with Seki--perhaps they could help you.

As far as I know, there's no connection between Seki & Okazaki. There's certainly no technical resemblance between the styles, beyond the fact that both were influenced by Kodokan methods. Seki would have been about 10 when Okazaki was getting his sandan at the Kodokan.

Hope this helps.

[Brian Griffin]

Originally posted by efb8th

SCJA may be what you're looking for, but I'm not familiar with them.


SCJA formed about '78 or so when a number of schools in the Southern California section (Region II) separated from the AJJF. The organization is still active, but not as much as it was in the '80s. They are not connected with Seki in any way.

[efb8th]

Hi, Brian.

Nothing works quite so well around here as an ignorant speculation when we're looking for the facts.

Thanks for filling in a "knowledge gap" in my concept of the Okazaki Legacy.

Regards,

[MarkF]

Hi, Brian,
When you drop by, it seems to lead to some answered questions, so thanks, too, from me for linking this stuff up.

I really never considered Haywood's age at the time, but he was certainly less than old. I was about 19 or 20 at the time, and his program was relatively new there (at Valley Jr. College, anyway).

It has slowly crept up concerning, what Jack called jiu-jitsu, but with about seven or eight years of judo behind me at the time, I recognized the waza almost immediately. But what really is a mystery, is this CBJJF. It was never really explained, except when someone on this board inquired about him that I looked into it. I was sent a home-page on which Zeki was remembered by Linda Gross. Her experience was interesting as she was studying with Zeki at the time she said she studied, as well, but I remember no women in that dojo, save one who took fees, which were more than reasonable. But he had always claimed to be a direct student of Kano, and when exhibited, his nage no kata was very nice. The only difference was on principles, and focus of Kodokan jiu-jitsu.

Brain, you know, I have been to the budoshin site a few times, but really never connected it to anything probably because I always new Zeki as Jack Haywood.

In the almanac, it said this organization was a loosley knit group, and apparently the writer had trouble when trying to get information on it.

I will look at the site again, and as Kirby what he remembers of Zeki. He had a giant ego, but otherwise, no glaring faults. The biggest, would be his very rapid growth from sandan in Judo (yes he retired yondan), was godan in this jiu-jitsu of his, and was hachidan, within a few months of my departure. He may have deserved it, but there was little reason for checking that stuff then, I suppose.

Mark

[shinja]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by davoravo
My father trained in Judo in th 60s and at that time it was certainly a fighting art. When I began training in aikido he remarked how similair it was (of course some people would say aikido is not a fighting art). In demonstrations I have attended the self defence forms of judo have appeared identical to some of the aikido techniques which are adapted directly from jujutsu.

This is probably due in part to the influence of Kenji Tomiki. He is credited with the creation of Goshinjutsu no Kata. I would personally classify MOST Aikido (Yoshinkan being the exception)as a self defense art but certainly not as a combat art. (but of course this is a subject for Aikido)

Anyway that's my 0.02 worth.

[MarkF]

I started judo in 1963 and the major change I've seen, apart from Olympic/International judo, is the relatively renewed interest of traditional judo, such as one may find at http://www.kanosociety.org , and the law suit brought by Phil Porter and the Armed Forces Judo Association (now the USJA). The suit was victorious in breaking up the United States Black Belt Federation, now the USJF.

Kata is seeing renewed interest, and open and critical comment of Olympic judo is healthy.

As to aikido, Tomiki, in my opinion, did something which, even then was considered perverse by some, by adding randori and certain shiai to the syllabus. This has not harmed aikido in the slightest, and is a good example of keeping your head concerning such things. If the Judo organizations had followed Tomiki, instead of the IOC, this discussion may not be necessary.

Since judo and aikido are basically the same thing, whether one wants to call it combat or self-defense matters not. It is what it is because human beings, some with many human frailties, played with a good and decent thing.

Now and then, threads which seem to be off-topic of the forum are posted so a discussion in this manner of aikido is not a problem. If anyone wants it moved, though, I will move it, or just move the posts concerning aikido to that forum. Please let me know, if necessary.

Mark