male:female ratios in budo

[Meik Skoss]

As Colin, Eric and Earl have all mentioned, there are lots of different reasons that a particular art, or dojo, might have more, or less, women (or men) in it. I gather that the original post was by a gal who hasn't traine long, so maybe she's based her assumption on a relatively small population sample.

Budo has undergone a drop in popularity, resulting from its being perceived as typical of the Three Ks: kitsui (tough, difficult), kiken (dangerous), and kitanai (dirty). Why get all sweaty in a hot, stuffy (summertime) or freezing cold (winter) dojo, wearing keiko gi that are either really funky/stinky or freezing cold from the sweat that's dried from the previous practice when you could be out there playing tennis, looking good to the ladies and/or guys, of being stylish, having fun? At least that's what students at my high school in Tokyo used to say when I asked why more of them they didn't go out for the judo or kendo clubs.

The kendo club at my school was pretty strong (paricularly the girls squad), but the judo club had problems attracting members. Judo's a tough art, not very attractive to people who have only a marginal interest. I rather suspect that is why karatedo and aikido have gained in popularity in recent years, both in Japan and elsewhere.

It's odd, though, when you see what else kids here 'n there like to do. Some of the stuff they think is cool gives me the screaming willies, but then I'm old enough to know that I won't live forever. Ah, Sweet Bird of Youth, how thy time has flown...

[Sheridan]

That funky keiko gi? No, no, no! That's how us whippersnappers ATTRACT the opposite sex! PHEREMONES! Haven't you old timers heard of science yet? Geez.... like don't be such a square man! It's not groovy! Y'dig?:D

On a serious note; how can we make MA more popular without losing the personal teaching required in the Koryu? I'm sure that a marketing whiz could make it popular again and even do it using those long outdated ethical standards, but our society frowns on violence and making Koryu popular would require a significant mindset change for the masses. Any ideas anybody?

[Rob]

Ok as a marketing professional with a more than passing interest in the martial arts I'm gonna jump in here.

Sheriden, the impression that you give here is that great marketing could bring in droves of eager students if only the koryu were marketed (actually promoted is a more accurate term) better. Putting aside any arguments about whether you would want to do this I'd like to talk about the realities of the situation.

Martial arts and especially the Koryu are ,by definition, a minority activity appealing to a very small potential customer base. Even at their 'peak' when these arts were part of the day to day life of professional warriors probably less than a 50th of the population trained in them.

Therefore, if you want to consider marketing the Koryu they need to be treated as a high value niche product - which will only every appeal to a very small number of people. This is not the same as a niche aspirational product like a Ferrari, where only a few people can afford one but most people would like one.

Actually rather than being marketed as such, what the Koryu rwould equire is an intensive PR campaign.

This is becuase people labour under two delusions about the martial arts.

1) That the main reason for doing it is self defence (Interestingly a large number of the general public now also feel that being a black belt doesn't mean you can fight)

2) That it is by definition a macho activity involving lots of sweat and blood and pain (OK this is true but really any more than from practicing Rugby or Soccer at any sort of level ?)

What they rarely see are the benefits that can be gained.

Apart from the role that the media and martial arts movies have played in this, the martial arts themselves must take some blame for this due to the way they have been marketed to date.

To attract the right sort of people to the Koryu, for the right reasons, the answer is not more glossy advertising The answer is true marketing - you already have an excellent product but you need to educate the customers about the benefits not the features.

The most common mistake in any form of marketing is to focus on features - e.g. for cars. It's got a fuel injection, ABS brakes and twin air bags !!! - SO WHAT.

What most customers need to know is that - it's quicker and therefore safer to overtake, you keep control of the vehicle even in extreme braking, and airbags significantly improve your chances of surviving an incident unharmed.

The first are features, the second are benefits.

If I was marketing the Koryu I wouldn't focus on the features - It's 250 years old, this teacher is xy rank, etc etc.

I would focus on the benefits of particpating starting with the general ones which could apply to many activites.

1) Get fitter
2) Meet new people
3) Improve co-rdination
4) etc etc -

The reasons that many of us would give for training in the arts are in reality, not that far removed from those that many other people give for playing soccer on a Sunday, stamp collecting or any one of a myriad of leisure activities. It's easy to get hung up on what makes MA special without first talking about the general benfeits.

Only then would I focus on the USP's (unique selling points) inherent in the Koryu - which, off the top of my head would be.

1) Small classes - personal tuition in a family atmosphere
2) A chance to participate in a foreign (for most of us here) culture
3) The desirablility of taking part in an elite activity.

There are many more but I'd have to sit down and spend a while thinking about them and to be honest I don't know enough about the Koryu to do them justice.

To summarise, to increase participation in the koryu without comprimising the art the answer is not McDojo advertising or setting of false expectations (be invincible in 1 years - be more attractive ) but a slow and concerted process of education about the benefits which can be gained.

Oh and by the way if you are a koryu master - that whole sending the student away 10 times and then making him chop wood and draw water for 5 years thing - that's not helping either !!!

[Cady Goldfield]

From my female perspective, I'd contribute that the dearth of women and girls in the "serious" martial arts has to do mainly with innate and conditioned inclination. By "serious," I mean MAs in which there is hard physical contact. Not the McDojo down the street where they play "air
guitar kuhrotty." You'll find lots of women taking Taebo and air guitar arts. Makes 'em feel "empowered" without having to take a punch!

In any population, relatively few women engage in activities that involve "hardcore" pain and danger(as opposed to "planned and sustained" pain, such as the damage and agonies that come from, say, hardcore ballet training). After all, we get to be childbearers. Pregnancy, labor and childbirth may be more than enough risk, pain and emotional stress to deal with. ;) Who needs broken bones, concussions, contusions and eye injuries to boot?

As an aside, the irony to me is that so many women are physically abused by a spouse or other male in their lives, that they end up taking hard physical (and emotional) contact whether they'd planned on it or not.

I can't speak for other women, certainly, but for myself, as a woman who trains in intense and often very painful (and sometimes damaging)martial arts, I can only say that I came into the MAs originally because I wanted to learn how to defend myself and to not feel helpless. I ended up falling in love with the arts themselves, their cogency and functionality. That's what has led me to spend half my life, thus far, in their pursuit, despite fear, pain and, on occasion, serious physical injury.

Another point I would offer, is that, IMO, *sport* and *martial* are mutually exclusive. A serious martial art is not sport, and so the intent and reasoning for entering the former is not the same as those of the latter. Meik and others have mentioned that there is no lack of women in kendo. I believe that is because with kendo, it is acceptible to have a winning mindset, but not a killing mindset. This makes the sport "safe." Few people, female or male, want to confront that part of their psyche -- the part capable of killing. But how about classical kenjutsu, where practitioners must effect a mindset capable of killing, in keeping with the authenticity of the art and its original purpose? Such an art will deter not just women, but plenty of men, too, who cannot or will not effect such a mindset.

I believe that among both men and women, those who enter and continue to train in a truly martial system are a relative rarity. We all know the stats about how many people walk through the doors of a dojo for any art, nevermind a truly martial one, and how many remain to achieve any level of experise.

This is not so much a gender thing as a "personal character" thing. As fewer women walk through the koryu/classical dojo doors in the first place -- for a variety of reasons that have already been discussed -- possibly the even lesser numbers who remain are proportionately the same as the numbers of men who remain to excel in their arts.

Cady


[Edited by Cady Goldfield on 10-20-2000 at 03:29 PM]

[Dan Harden]

Cady

I agree with most of what you write here with exception of what defines a serious "martial art" VS sport. Judo, (particularly Good Judo) is a very tough sport and can be VERY martial with minor changes. The overal methodology of Kodokan Judo is very effective for taijutsu. There a number of women involved in that "sport" who would, by its very nature, be able to take punishmant under your definitions.
There are of course, rougher things out there, with the taijutsu being tougher to take as well as the Ate-waza. Body slammin in conjuntion with sutemi-waza in freestyle is not easy to take on your best day ;)

Dan

[Cady Goldfield]

Dan,
I did not say that sports were not physically brutal (hockey is a great one for that, nevermind judo!). What I was saying is that the mindset is different. "Winning" vs. "killing." I believe that separates kendo *as sport* from kenjutsu *as combat system* (however archaic).

Cady

[ChrisBeattie]

Meik:

As you supposed, I am very new to the MAs in general, and sword arts in particular. I only have about 6 months of battojutsu experience, and only been to one tai kai and no seminars as of yet. So I admit to being pretty naive.

The male:female difference in ratios that I've noticed could also be a result of the regions I've trained in (United States - Great Lakes and Pacific Northwest). Maybe it's different in areas I haven't visited yet. The women in kendo in Japan seem to support this, though I wonder how many continue to train once out of school.

[Richard A Tolson]

Rob,
Excellent post! A lot of food for thought there.

[whiteraven]

Well, as another woman involved in MA, (sword as well as grappling, throws, strikes, etc) I have also noticed there are a lot fewer women than men, especially in my ninjutsu school as compared with the tae kwon do school I had attended previously.
I would say the reason is that it is very physical and can be painful. As a woman working with men, you are almost always at a disadvantage, being weaker and smaller. Even a man the same size as a woman (height and weight) is often stronger and faster, and at my school the men are usually 3-4 inches taller, and 30-50 pounds heavier. I'm an average sized woman, and at 5'6" 130#, there's no way I can hip or shoulder throw a 6' 200+ pound man. So that could be very discouraging for women looking to join this type of art. When sparring, the bigger guy's hits hurt more than mine, and his blocks are more effective.
In addition, women seem less agressive. Not only are they probably less inclined to take a hit, when applying her own technique, a woman will often use less force than she is capable of, and thus feel like she cannot be effective. I feel myself "pulling" kicks and things even when I know my opponent can take it, is well padded, etc.
Finally, at most schools women are not really encouraged to stick with it- it seems like we grow up thinking men should fight, but not women. It's like being on the football team or somthing- just seems like you don't really belong there.

But I think that some things that are encouraging for me are having a couple other woman in my class, as well as men that are my size. The men that are bigger have good control, and don't usually "break" me. There are other advantages to working with the bigger guys- I may not win often when grappling with one, but once in a while I do get the advantage, and more importantly, I learn what to watch out for so if Mr. Bogey Man does come after me, I have a better chance of escaping. I learn what works and what doesn't- maybe I can't put a wrist lock on him because his arms are so strong, but a strike to the face and a choke might still be effective.
In addition, it's a great workout, and I think it's very interesting and fun. I love doing acrobatics, something I can do as well as just about any guy, and I like being thrown. I enjoy the weapons and seem to do as well as the men with sword- and I have fun grappling and doing wazas with my classmates, so long as I'm not crushed beneath the bulk of one of them. ;)
One additional note- we have classes specially for women, and those have a bigger turnout than the mixed classes. Only 3 women in our mixed classes, vs about 30 men. But in the woman's only class, there are probably 10 or more woman.

[Cady Goldfield]

Sara,
You make the points that many women (and smaller, lighter men) do, but I take issue with one of them:

You should certainly be able to "hip- and shoulder throw" large men. In fact, your size (or lack thereof) is an advantage, as you're the perfect fulcrum.

I'm also 5'6", and happily toss my 6' tall, 200+ lb. instructor around with no problemo. Likewise the other big guys in my dojo. Our most senior student is a 5'4" guy who has roundly trounced big guys on many occasions, including a 270 lb. judoka of many years' experience. If our sempai had been a woman, he'd still have been able to do so.

It's about technique, not size. That's why guys like Sokaku Takeda and Morihei Ueshiba, who were itty-bitty dudes, served as "poster children" for the argument that jujutsu and aikido are good skills for small people who do not have a lot of physical strength. In fact, I believe it was Takeda himself who stated that the nature of Daito-ryu aikijujutsu -- a powerful and brutal art and system -- was such that it could be "practiced by women and children."

So, none of that excuse from you, young lady! If you're not succeeding in carrying off technique, try to figure out what's going wrong, and get someone to show you how to fix it! :)

Cady

[Edited by Cady Goldfield on 10-24-2000 at 10:22 AM]

[whiteraven]

LOL...
Well, I won't say my technique isn't flawed, I'm sure it needs work, my 5'6" teacher seems able to throw the big guys fine, but he is a man.
It just seems to me when I collapse under the weight of my 6'2" 300# husband, that there are better ways to get him down. Now granted, I can sometimes throw our 6' 190# friend, but if he wasn't cooperating I doubt it would happen for me in a real life combat situation. Any tips?
^_^

[Cady Goldfield]

I suspect that your 5'6" instructor has no problems with the throws, not because he is a man, but because, well, he knows how to do it! :) So, I'd observe him carefully, follow his instructions and ask for his corrections.

Now, how about the sword part of your training? How do you fare with your male peers in that area? Again, it's about skill and the ability to understand and enact principles, not so much about size and strength. I'm discovering that the main disadvantage is the difference in ma-ai, with us smaller folk having to compensate for our lack of arm and leg length by moving a heck of a lot faster and having to cover more ground than a larger opponent. What about you?

Cady

[Ron Tisdale]

Instead of loading someone on my hips (as in a judo throw) I try to take their balance in a forward direction, then lead them into my hips, then let my hips "disappear" by kneeling down, usually taking my forward leg back to kneel while continuing to lead/pull them forward. Its kind of like setting up the fulcrom, then taking it away. I haven't tested it in terms of more realistic less cooperative training though, but I have seen others do it under those circumstances.

Oh, and while Ueshiba, Takeda, and even Gozo Shioda were all small men, they were also reportedly incredibly strong, for their size. This is not to say that using inordinate amounts of strength instead of technique is not wrong; its just an interesting side note.

Ron Tisdale

[Edited by Ron Tisdale on 10-24-2000 at 12:53 PM]

[Cady Goldfield]

Okay, Ron, I'll concede the point about those three's strength. I believe it's been written time and again that Ueshiba did lots of exercises and weights to counteract the effects of his sickly childhood. Plus, there's the SGSF (Short Guy Syndrome Factor). :D

BUT... you know darned well that muscling and using strength in aikido and jujutsu are counterproductive -- they cause technique to fail.

Cady

[Ron Tisdale]

Once again, complete agreement. Mission accomplished.
:)

But do you (Cady)have any suggestions for the type of throw I described? I have not had it taught to me as one of our basic techniques, so I am not as familiar with it as I would like to be. I believe some of the Iwama stylists do it more often, but perhaps you are familiar with it, and some good details to keep in mind?

Ron

[Edited by Ron Tisdale on 10-24-2000 at 01:25 PM]

[whiteraven]

Cady-
In response to your comments- I was kind of trying to imply that yes, technique has something to do with it, as my instructor is small also, but I still think strength is a consideration as well.
As for the sword work, I don't really notice real differences in men and women there- with the exception, as you pointed out, of long limbs, but I think that is true for both men and women in this case. Men are more likely to have longer limbs I guess, but I haven't felt like I was at much of a disadvantage with the exception of one samurai student who whipped me handily, and in his case he was very tall/long limbed (probably 6'3"), but also more skillful.

[Sheridan]

Ms. Porter: as a fairly large man I can say that I HATE working with petite women! When a petite woman does a GOOD throw, I have half the distance to do a good ukemi. And considering that one of our classes is saturday morning first thing after partying friday night when I'm smrt like ox, I always manage to take that first throw bad and screw up my neck! When they say the bigger the man the harder they fall? It's true D%&@*%#! As for not being able to do goood technique, try some cross training. Find a good aiki or aikijj teacher and see just how effortless it is to throw a big goon like me.

[Jack B]

Ron, it sounds a little like tsurikomi-goshi, which was invented by Kano when he had trouble throwing a really big guy in judo hip throws. You lift the collar up and rotate over you instead of hoisting the buy on your hips.

This could also be an aikido koshi-nage variation.

Jack Bieler

[gmellis]

If I was marketing the Koryu I wouldn't focus on the features - It's 250 years old, this teacher is xy rank, etc etc.

I would focus on the benefits of particpating starting with the general ones which could apply to many activites.

1) Get fitter
2) Meet new people
3) Improve co-rdination
4) etc etc -

The reasons that many of us would give for training in the arts are in reality, not that far removed from those that many other people give for playing soccer on a Sunday, stamp collecting or any one of a myriad of leisure activities. It's easy to get hung up on what makes MA special without first talking about the general benfeits.

Only then would I focus on the USP's (unique selling points) inherent in the Koryu - which, off the top of my head would be.

-----------------------------------------------------------
I'm not against marketing for commercial products and all that, as money does make the world go round (and even Socialist hippies wearing their $120 Burkenstocks are subtley aware of this (having ben a Socialist hippie at one time)). However, all I can say to the above, in my own clouded, stubborn opinion is: I WOULD RATHER SEE THE KORYU DIE OUT ALL TOGETHER (AND YES, PERHAPS NEVER HAD HAD THE CHANCE TO TRAIN IN ONE) ON THEIR FEET, THEN SEE THEM GROVEL ON THEIR KNEES UNTIL THEY ARE A PALE IMAGE OF THE ARTS THEY WERE WHEN THEY WERE FOUNDED. It's like keeping a tiger in a circus and, over the loud speaker, boasting how ferocious and wild tigers are and how one can witness their awe-inspiring presence for just $5, all the while the tiger is loosing its wildness, growing fat and slow, and a little loony from being away from its natural setting and being surrounded by gauking morons all day.

Doh! Did it again. Always flying off the handle like that. Gee I'm sorry Wally.

[Rob]

Mr Ellis

My apologies to you as I have clearly utterly failed to clearly communicate what I was trying to say.

Just for the record I completely agree with you, which I'd hoped came out in my post. I'll try again here with perhaps a little more brevity.

I posted because it was suggested (albeit humorously) that good marketing could get people flocking to the Koryu.

What I was trying to say was that in marketing, of which I have considerably more knowledge than I do the Koryu, there are effectively two options.

1) Change the art to make it more popular - IMHO This would not only be wrong for the arts it would actually be wrong from a marketing point of view - You would be promising a Porche and deliving a Pinto !!

2) Improve the image and understanding of the Koryu to enable more people who might benefit from their unique nature to take part.

I never intended to suggest that the arts should in anyway be watered down. As it happens I wasn't even suggesting that one SHOULD market the Koryu. I was simply attempting to suggest how in my own opinion that might be best done.

I did suggest that promotion the Koryu, or in fact the martial arts in general should start by educating the public about the general benefits of taking up a new activity and THEN focus on what is specific to that art. I have seen too much marketing for MA clubs focus on the "Get fit and learn to fight" message without ever saying - hey you actually meet some pretty interesting people and it's fun (well perhaps not fun but certainly enjoyable).

I hope this is a little clearer and again my apologies for the earlier confusion which I hope I have cleared up.

[hyaku]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rob
[B]Ok as a marketing professional with a more than passing interest in the martial arts I'm gonna jump in here.

If I was marketing the Koryu I wouldn't focus on the features - It's 250 years old, this teacher is xy rank, etc etc.
....................
I think the points put forward are very Western in their approach. Although Japan is quite good at marketing to say the least. Budo is not something it generally whishes to promote for its monetary value. The first rule set out by the Zen Nippon Budo Renmei is that there shall be no financial gain from Budo. Of course there are. exceptions.

The majority of Koryu and popular Japanese Budo are not practiced as self defence.
.......................
I would focus on the benefits of participating starting with the general ones which could apply to many activites..

1) Get fitter
2) Meet new people
3) Improve co-rdination
4) etc etc -
............................
My Kendo students do weight training, running, rope climbing for one hour every morning, Then three hours Kendo early evening. Most of this basics, basics.
...........................

Oh and by the way if you are a koryu master - that whole sending the student away 10 times and then making him chop wood and draw water for 5 years thing - that's not helping either !!!
...........................
At koryu we usually devote one hour to the first technique (Ipponme). Some people are now going on to the second technique after four years. As in Kendo basics, basics.

Kendo like Kenjutsu is very combative. Its just that it has wandered of the track as to what constitutes real sword technique.


Hyakutake Colin http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword

[Cady Goldfield]

Somehow, we seem to have gotten off track, topic-wise. Maybe we should start a new thread?

Cady

[whiteraven]

Hehehe... I agree this thread has gotten rather knotted.
I believe the original topic was about the number of men vs women in MA, and why there seem to be so many less women than men. But there have been some very interesting, if off-topic, posts.
*hangs head guiltily for starting the hip throw (koshi naga? sorry my Japanese is non existant...must...study) thread*

[Cady Goldfield]

Originally posted by whiteraven
Hehehe... I agree this thread has gotten rather knotted.
I believe the original topic was about the number of men vs women in MA, and why there seem to be so many less women than men. But there have been some very interesting, if off-topic, posts.
*hangs head guiltily for starting the hip throw (koshi naga? sorry my Japanese is non existant...must...study) thread*

Ah! Now it all comes back to me. ;)
There are lots of reasons for the skewed ratios, most of which have been touched on on various threads at various times. Lack of glamor, risk of cosmetically-unattractive bruises and injuries; pressure from family and spouse/boyfriend to not engage in such "unladylike" and potentially threatening activities ("I ain't marrying a girl who can beat me up!") and all the old traditional saws.

I believe that the rise in the number of "air guitar" arts (those which spare the practioner from the threat of painful physical contact and realistic confrontation) has led to a greater number of girls and women engaged in quasi-martial arts activities, such as non-contact TKD and karate, TaeBo and Cardio Kickbox workouts. Precious few become involved in physically brutal arts, such as Kodokan judo. Those that do tend to excel because they are fearless and driven.

Even fewer women become involved in pragmatic combat sword and weapons arts which require a mindset geared toward total domination of one's opponent, such as to kill. For one thing, women's role in most cultures and societies was not involved in dealing with warfare, except as last-ditch defenders. Similarly (and in relation to that), weapons are a mechanical accoutrement that are the inventions of men. Women's relationships with these implements is not a natural one, nor is a warlike combat demeanor. I believe that the number of women who will easily adopt and adapt to that inclination are relatively few, with most coming from a background in which they were exposed to violence, danger and physical contact and challenge from an early age in life. Most of the female escrimadoras/arnisadoras (Philippino stick, sword and dagger arts) I have met or heard of, come from such backgrounds, and they are tough as nails. Mainstream, they ain't.

Sportified weapons arts such as kendo and naginata (the modern form) offer good workouts and sport activity without requiring a killing mindset. Thus, they are more appealing to women from middleclass upbringings.

Violence, even controled violence is too threatening for most, male or female, so the numbers of individuals of either sex engaging in old-style classical arts will be few; the number of females in them even fewer.

Just some rambling (as usual) thoughts on the subject. :)

Cady

[Sheridan]

If that's the case Ms. Goldfield, then to use one of your own points against you (different thread) how do you explain the huge following women's hockey is attracting? The women that played on the Canadian olympic team had more than enough rough and tumble to keep the most rabid (Canadian) NHL fan glued to their idiot box.
:toast:

[Cady Goldfield]

I didn't say there were no women engaged in these activities, I only offered my hypothesis for why the ratio of men to women in budo is as it is. There are exceptions, of course. Hey, I'm a woman who trains in 2 arts that were created for the sole purpose of killing and maiming people. What the heck!? :)

Btw, I did mention hockey in an earlier post on this thread. As for the huge following you speak of, I liken it to the attraction men have to women's mud wrestling. They like catfights! Also, hockey prowess among women is not threatening to men. Off the ice and out of their padded gear, they're just chicks again. A bujutsuka is a bujutsuka ALL the time.

Cady

[Edited by Cady Goldfield on 10-26-2000 at 02:53 PM]

[glad2bhere]

Dear Cady and Ron:

I was trying to follow what you were sharing and imagine the dynamics of the technique but could only see in my minds' eye pulling my partner into my back as I dropped to one knee. What would you think would compel the partner to rise-up and over?

The reason I mentioned Cady in my salutation was that I have had difficulty getting female students to engage correctly in either the outer or inner hip throw. I suspect that the reason is that the defender must plant the opposite hip deeply in the attackers' groin and this leaves the females feeling a bit uncomfortable. They would rather fail the technique and give-up trying than execute it correctly and make that sort of contact. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Ron Tisdale]

I think its a good topic Bruce, but perhaps not for this thread. Perhaps if you start a thread in the aikido forum (koshi nage, anyone?) you can get some good technical advice. This is one of those throws I don't know or do as well as I'd like, so I will reserve any more comment myself....there are plenty of people on this board who could koshi the heck out of me..... :)
Ron Tisdale

[Cady Goldfield]

In response to Ron, I agree that this is a topic for another forum and thread, since it's not about male:female rations in budo. :)

In response to Bruce, I have no trouble doing what has to be done to do hip throws. And, as a woman who is built like a woman, I have no lack of hip to use! :D

You might have something there, though, regarding reluctance to attack the groin. There might be some self-conscious awkwardness there just as men might feel awkward doing same to female partners. However, my better guess is that people don't enter far enough and deeply enough in the technique, as a result of just not having a feel for proper ma-ai and how to bridge distance while positioning the body for the throw. I know that has been a problem of mine when learning such throws.

I'd also have to say that in my dojo, neither the guys nor I seem to have a problem doing technique that involves ate waza to the chest, groin or whatever. Waza is waza, and when you're focused on training, gender and such shouldn't be an issue. You just generally look out for your uke as good training dictates. Anyway, I've been stabbed in the breasts plenty of times during sword kata by guys with bokuto and mistargeted tsuki. And I know I've inadvertantly sliced into a training partner's 'nad when doing too enthusiastic an "O-kachidachi" during kata. Ow. :eek: We learn to be aware, careful and considerate, but accidents happen.

[Edited by Cady Goldfield on 10-26-2000 at 11:53 AM]

[Joanne Miller]

Quote,
Originally posted by : Cady Goldfield
"inadvertantly sliced into a training partner's 'nad when doing too enthusiastic an "O-kachidachi" during kata

I can't help but notice that members of your group (Mr Dan Harden and yourself) who post on this board sometimes use terminlogy (i.e O-kachi tachi, Te-ura gasumi to name a few as mentioned by yourself and Mr Harden on this forum before in previous threads) to describe certain movements of Kenjutsu as practice by your group which bear similarity to names of certain movements which seem to be found uniquely in Shinto Ryu (Katori Shinto Ryu)

Does your group coupled some form of Shinto Ryu waza in your Jujutsu/ Aikijutsu group?? or is there some Jujutsu based ryuha which assimilates Shinto ryu waza ? ;)

Just curious..

[Edited by Joanne Miller on 10-26-2000 at 02:08 PM]

[Margaret Lo]

Originally posted by Meik Skoss
As Colin, Eric and Earl have all mentioned, there are lots of different reasons that a particular art, or dojo, might have more, or less, women (or men) in it. I gather that the original post was by a gal who hasn't traine long, so maybe she's based her assumption on a relatively small population sample.

Budo has undergone a drop in popularity, resulting from its being perceived as typical of the Three Ks: kitsui (tough, difficult), kiken (dangerous), and kitanai (dirty

Hello Meik - Hope all is well with you and Diane. Your question seems to be well answered by subsequent posts as to why women may or may not want to train in budo. Thinking as a teacher, I want to ask this followup quesion:

What proportion of women to men would one as a teacher or student want to have in a dojo? What proportion of women to men would one not want to have?

For myself in a karate club, I like a ratio of 1/3 women to 2/3 men or up to 50% women - but not greater than 50% female.

-M-

[Edited by Margaret Lo on 10-26-2000 at 02:35 PM]

[whiteraven]

Why not more than 50% women?

[Margaret Lo]

In my experience, once the female membership exceeds 50% in a class, the energy level amongst students drops perceptably as does the corresponding level of aggression in sparring.

However, this is not true for an all kata class.

-M-

[Cady Goldfield]

Originally posted by Joanne Miller
Quote,
Originally posted by : Cady Goldfield
"inadvertantly sliced into a training partner's 'nad when doing too enthusiastic an "O-kachidachi" during kata

I can't help but notice that members of your group (Mr Dan Harden and yourself) who post on this board sometimes use terminlogy (i.e O-kachi tachi, Te-ura gasumi to name a few as mentioned by yourself and Mr Harden on this forum before in previous threads) to describe certain movements of Kenjutsu as practice by your group which bear similarity to names of certain movements which seem to be found uniquely in Shinto Ryu (Katori Shinto Ryu)

Does your group coupled some form of Shinto Ryu waza in your Jujutsu/ Aikijutsu group?? or is there some Jujutsu based ryuha which assimilates Shinto ryu waza ? ;)

Just curious..

Oops. :o
We're just a small, private study group that passionately pursues a classical kenjutsu system. One of us was fortunate enough to receive extensive training from a bonafide instructor of a classical sword art, and he shares what he knows with us. However, we are not qualified, certified or entitled in any way to attach a name or label to what we do.

Cady


[Edited by Cady Goldfield on 10-26-2000 at 03:02 PM]

[Cady Goldfield]

Originally posted by Margaret Lo
In my experience, once the female membership exceeds 50% in a class, the energy level amongst students drops perceptably as does the corresponding level of aggression in sparring.

However, this is not true for an all kata class.

-M-

I agree with this assessment in a typical karate dojo. I have seen exceptions, particularly in schools or programs that emphasize all-out combat for self-preservation, in which case the agression on the part of females is greater than that of males. But in a recreational context, yes, the level of aggression is less among women.

Cady