My Karate teacher has gone to far!

[S.Jubei]

Hello all

Ok i have been studying Shotokan Karate for about 5 months now and have to say that my Karate teacher is not the best of the bunch!
First of all he just doesnt space the lessons out well and we dont learn Kata like at all. We seem to just repeat things that are not really important! I have been there 5 months and have not been taught the second Kata once yet!
Secondly hes a bully and seems to enjoy putting down other students.
He also complains about peoples control but likes to hit his students when demonstrating techniques.
I'm just getting really fed up with his ways now and am temptedto stop going but the problem is i really like Karate and dont want to stop doing it all together. The only other Martial art around me is TaeKwonDo which i attended for 1 year. I liked it but prefur Japense arts by miles.
When i did Taekwondo the teacher was good and let his students grade every 3 months.
My Karate teacher is SUCH a mean git when it comes to grading. For example im not being big headed but i had been for 4 months and he said i was not good enough to grade for my first belt! I disagreed so he let me grade saying i will fail and i got a 1st class grade and had so many students come up to me and comment on how well i did.
There are lots of students who deserve to move on but he doesnt let them because he likes to be Mr. in Control!
I know very well that when the next grading comes he wont let me grade when i KNOW i am good enough and would probably get another 1st but he saw the attention i got and wont let me grade this time for sure.

I just really dont know what to do as i love Karate and going to the grading and seeing really good sensei was a really great feeling.

Ok now im asking your opionons...
What do think i should do?

Please help :(

Thanks

[Gene Williams]

I think you should find a new school...oh, and get a life...

[S.Jubei]

Why do you say i need a life?

Nice to see some friendly users, Lol

[will szlemko]

"I have been there 5 months and have not been taught the second
Kata once yet!"

Not an uncommon occurrence in Shotokan. I trained for 6 months, learned 1 kata, 1 kick, 3 blocks and front punch. I value my years in Shotokan for the basics, and understanding of studying a few techniques in great depth.

"Secondly hes a bully and seems to enjoy putting down other
students.He also complains about peoples control but likes to
hit his students when demonstrating techniques."

Completely uncalled for and often the sign of an immature instructor (at least if he is emphasizing the need for control).


"For example im not being big headed but i had been for 4 months
and he said i was not good enough to grade for my first belt!"

4 months training is not enough to get the first belt in many systems. When I originally started training in Shito Ryu I trained for 5 years before advancing to the first belt. I also trained in a school where it was policy that the first test (6 months in) was an automatic fail, this was to separate those who wanted to train from those interested only in rank.


"I disagreed so he let me grade saying i will fail and i got a
1st class grade and had so many students come up to me and
comment on how well i did. There are lots of students who
deserve to move on but he doesnt let them because he likes to
be Mr. in Control! I know very well that when the next grading
comes he wont let me grade when i KNOW i am good enough and
would probably get another 1st but he saw the attention i got
and wont let me grade this time for sure."


Students should not waste time worrying about grading, and further are not qualified to determine if they are indeed ready. That said if your perception of the instructor is that negative one of two things may be occurring. 1) he really is that bad 2) you are whining for no good reason. In either case if you are unhappy and feel you could better pursue your goals elsewhere then move on.

will

[S.Jubei]

Will i agree with what you say and i thank you for your reply.
I would just like to say that it is not just me who gets annoyed with him though. Many students have quit because of it. Beginners have come and never come back again due to his acts.
I have also got a friend whos a brown belt and goes and he feels exacly the same way! He hates him even more though as he is used as a punching bag for the class demonstrations and often gets kick and punched with un-needed power and agression.

I would like to move to another club but the closest is 18 Miles away and i cannot drive!

[Rogier]

three options:

1. find another place to train
2. stop training

if above do not apply to you:

3. stop complaining and stick with it..

Whatever you do, you are never going to change the way your current teacher is.

[Greg Chapman]

If you look hard enough i am sure there would be more than one other martial arts club where you live, if not get on the bus and find one but do it and stop whinging!!!!

where do you live by the way?

[MarkF]

Originally posted by S.Jubei
Will i agree with what you say and i thank you for your reply.
I would just like to say that it is not just me who gets annoyed with him though. Many students have quit because of it. Beginners have come and never come back again due to his acts.
I have also got a friend whos a brown belt and goes and he feels exacly the same way! He hates him even more though as he is used as a punching bag for the class demonstrations and often gets kick and punched with un-needed power and agression.

I would like to move to another club but the closest is 18 Miles away and i cannot drive!


You seem to have a lot of reasons not to train, few to train, but you had no problems at the tae kwan do dojang. Looking back to when I was eighteen, I was pummled and tossed around a lot which taught me a lot more than I could have standing on the side lines.

Remember, he could probably grade you every two months, guarantee a black belt in one year just to make sure you stay and pay. You are too young and inexperienced to judge the teacher's style of forcing you to work hard. If your brown belt friend feels the way you do, perhaps he was graded too early? This is an example of why tests are ineffectual at best, and completely unnecessary at worst. Memorizing a kata has no effect on whether or not you will understand it until you have some experience. "Some experience" is a number of years, not a couple of months.

You have a lot of time to go, and while I don't know anything about your situation except that you complain a lot, if I saw talent in you, I would probably treat you similarly. One of the better ways to judge a student is to see what s/he can take and how s/he reacts to it. To many teachers, this is a weeding out process, as if you can't take it, what are you going to do when it counts?

Either stop crying or stop training. The fact that you threw in that you don't have a way to get to another dojo/teacher, leaves me with a sickening feeling. You want it your way or not at all. May I suggest the latter?

[MikeWilliams]

The last time a teacher told me I wasn't quite ready for the next grade, I was like "thank f*** for that!"

:laugh:

(Judoka and BJJers will understand...)

[larsen_huw]

Mr. Jubei,

It would appear that karate isn't for you, as it requires too much getting hit and not enough grading.

I normally wouldn't recommend the Fuma Ryu to anyone, but ... ;)

[TimothyKleinert]

Mr. Jubei (BTW, I don't mean to be rude, but is that your real name?),

Noone here is purposely trying to be rude to you, but you must understand that for us, staring across a monitor, its very hard for us to tell wheither your teacher is in the wrong, or if you're just complaining (especially due to your frustrated tone). For everything you've said about your teacher, there are legitamite reasons why he would act that way.

Is he being controlling about testing? How often you test varies alot from school to school, as is the the amount of time you're expected to train before reaching 1st dan. Some schools only allow you to test once a year, so don't feel bad.

Is he being controlling about kata? It's a common practice to only teach 1 kata per kyu for beginners. It was that way in my old shotokan dojo.

Is he being abusive when he demostrates? Sometimes teachers will be "rougher" when they demonstrate to both give a more realistic demonstration, and to "toughen-up" their students. Teachers generally have more control than their students, so they have the ability to push it without going too far (unlike their unskilled students).

But that said maybe things are exactly like you said. Like I stated, it's hard to interprete over cyberspace. What I'm interested in is your brown belt friend. How long has he been going there? If he's been there over 1.5-2 years, and he agrees with you, then I suspect you're justified. (If he's been there under 1.5 years and is a brown belt, then I suspect the teacher's methods, though there's the possibility your friend is really talented.)

If you feel you are justified, you have a couple of options:

1. Quit and wait for another school to open up.
2. Quit and make the long trip to that other school.
3. Keep going, get what you can out of the teacher, but keep an eye open for another school (but stop complaining in the meantime!).

[j-lane]

Mr Jubei:
I am a realtive newcomer to Shotokan- I've been practicing 1 1/2 years and am 6th kyu.

Don't worry about the number of kata being taught- it is far better to learn one kata correctly than suck at all of them. Slow and steady is a good philosophy in learning karate.

As far as being hit- it depends on the degree. This is a martial art and you do need to learn what it is like to be hit and to keep your wits about you. A good instructor knows how much contact is appropriate for each student. I like getting hit- it keeps it real for me in my mind- this is real fighting and self defense, not pointless Tae Bo excersize.

As far as your instructor being mean- well, different instructors have different styles. One of my instructors is really relaxed and informal, we joke all the time and there is no yelling. Our main sensei, on the other hand, varies- he can be informal one day, and then a tough SOB the next. I like when he's tough. Sometimes you need to get yelled at and pushed to get to a higher level. Our sensei knows that and knows just how far to push. This style of teaching often clashes with Western philosophy and approaches to teaching and some students just can't cope.

Perhaps there are other classes at that school with different instructors whose style might be more to your liking? If you liked the Tae Kwon Do school, then go back there. Tae Kwon Do is similar in many ways to Shotokan and you will learn many of the same skills, if it is a decent school. Or perhaps the punching arts are not for you, if you don't like getting hit (a natural reaction, I can't blame you for that). Perhaps you should check out some of the grappling arts, like judo or aikido. Or maybe other arts that have less of a sparring curriculum- Tai Chi, other interal Chinese arts or some Gung Fu arts.

Just my two cents from a beginner's perspective. Perhaps I'm a little closer to your point of view than some of the more experienced and dan-ranked members of the group.

Good luck!

[j-lane]

Oh, one other thing:

Shotokan is very repetitive. Constant work on basics. This is one of the strengths of the style, IMHO, though I can see how some people will find it boring. If this aspect bothers you then perhaps Shotokan is not a good style for you.

[S.Jubei]

Thankyou all for your replies.

One thing from reading all your posts that i seem to have not explained very well is about getting hit.
I dont mind getting hit at all and it has nothing to do with getting hit that i am annoyed. In actual fact when we do full contact training like 3 step etc i really enjoy it and like someone mentioned i like getting hit to remind me that its a Martial art.
We did full contact sparring in Taekwondo which was one the funnest things there.
What i mean by his lack of control is on other students like children who are white belts who have left due to being kicked in the stomach and are to scared to go back.
Another example is when blocking the action is in the twist at the last second right? But my teacher likes to put heaps of force into it and leave nice big red marks on our arms, Which in my mind means lack of control!
When it comes to grading i cant agree more that it is better to learn something and get it right then jump to the next thing.
I have only learnt Kion so far and am happy to carry on learning it but the other day the teacher made the whole class including me do the first 5 cutters! 4 of which i have never done in my life, so you can imagine how i looked when trying them?

I dont mean to sound like im whinning! Its got nothing to do with being hit its just his arogance that annoys me! Another example was in lesson my trousers were getting in the way because we were doing a long stance so i pulled them up occasionally so he decided to say "Stop being a ponce and pulling your trousers up its starting to annoy me"! There was just no need for it?

My friend who is a brown belt has been going for the best of 4 years and used to train with a different teacher who was hard but not arogant. He couldnt agree with me more on this subject along with the rest of the club.

I will continue to think about my options but if anyone else wishes to put in that im whinning please dont because its got nothing to do with being hit or because i dont like the slowness of Karate.
People who have put me down are obviously high graded students who have forgotton what it is like to be a begginer in a Martial art and maybe its gone to their heads a lil to much!

Thanks to you who gave me grown up and helpful replies.

Thanks again

[hyaku]

Hello Jubei I see your sig is from Musashi.

Enter a dojo to learn his way you are likely to do the first technique for around six years.
We are lucky as a an associate entering another ryu has spent a year cleaning and making tea.

On the brighter side we encourage people to roll things up if they get in the way particularly sleeves.

I know you do karate but "expecting" gradings really is not the Budo way.

Hope this helps

Hyakutake Colin

[will szlemko]

Eiter deal or leave, either way quit complaining and/or justifying your feelings.

will

[S.Jubei]

Originally posted by will szlemko
Eiter deal or leave, either way quit complaining and/or justifying your feelings.

will

Well i must say that was a helpful comment!
Why did you even bother?

[MikeWilliams]

S.Jubei -

Didn't you have a thread some time back asking whether you should choose Aikido or Karate (forgive me if it wasn't you.). Something along the lines of getting along well with the aikido instructor, but not the karate instructor? Perhaps you can re-evaluate your decision?

I really don't know what you hope to achieve here, other than blowing off steam. It is clear from your posts that you are not enjoying your karate classes, but there is nothing any of us can do to change that.

Basically all any of us can say is "put up with it, or leave" - I am sorry if that comes across as harsh.

On a side note - I am always amazed by beginners being so fixated with learning a particular style that they will put up with unsympathetic teachers/students, or shoddy instruction, or price gouging, or any of a host of other negative aspects.

Particularly when you are starting out, the number one priority IMO is to have fun. If you don't enjoy it, there is no way you will stay the distance.

So if there is a class in a different style (aikido, TKD, whatever) that you feel happier in - just do that for a while. Eventually your circumstances will change and you might end up next to a really good shotokan club, and you can start again there. Don't be so impatient.

[KumdoFleck]

I have been a silent reader on this site for a small while (especially quiet seeing as I am a student of the Korean arts). but i feel this topic doesn't differ much from dojo to dojang. due to a childhood filled with travel, i have studied under a variety of masters. every one has their own style.

when blocking the action is in the twist at the last second right? But my teacher likes to put heaps of force into it and leave nice big red marks on our arms, Which in my mind means lack of control!
this may seem rough, and indeed it might be. yet to many times have i seen a red belt(TKD) left in a mangled pile on the ground by a yellow belt(TKD). all due to the fact that the yellow never had real contact in his training. question? does your current dojo compete? this tends to set the level for contact alittle higher.

the other day the teacher made the whole class including me do the first 5 cutters! 4 of which i have never done in my life, so you can imagine how i looked when trying them?
never feel humiliated when you are told to do something you don't know. those that do know the form remember when they were in your shoes and those that don't know the form are in the same shoes. anyone that would insult you for how you look attempting a new form are the real fool.

And finally, as said before, if you truly have a problem with this master. look hard and you will find atleast one more in the area. as to the dojo 18 miles away. when i started training, i was 10 yrs or so, and i traveled 26 miles to my dojang.

hope I was able to help.
-Patrick Fleckestein

[shotofan]

First off you say you don't care if you learn any other katas. But in your first post you said you were upset you haven't learned another kata. Then you said you know you are ready for your test. Why do u think that? You haven't been in Shotokan long enough to do if you are ready. Only the sensei can say you are ready, not you or your brown belt friend. If you are their to learn and not to get belts, than don't worry about testing.
I have been in Shotokan for 8 years and I have only learned 7 katas. We still go over the beginier katas. Just because you know many katas or a high rank means nothing. In my town there is a school that i think and many other schools think they are useless. There black belts were getting beat by green belts, and even by some white belts who wore black belts in touraments. I know it is a little deciving but the other schools wanted to prove to them they are not all high and mighty.
Just remember what Bruce Lee said. " Belts are for holding your pants up". If you are really their to learn than learn. If you are unhappy than leave and go back to TKD. If you decide to stay than quit your whinny complaining.:D

[Amphinon]

I had a student that was an Orange belt, who visited a school when he was on vacation. The head instructor told him that his abilities were advanced and that if he came to his school he would be a Brown Belt.

Does this mean that my standards are high, the other instructors standards are low or a little of both?

Also a quick comment...
When you signed up for classes, you put your faith in your instructor that he knows what is needed. If you don't feel he is living up to your needs, go talk to him (or her). If after that, you still feel neglected, change schools to suit you needs. I'm sure there is someone teaching nearby with 'soft' standards that cares about getting the green.

[MarkF]

You can train for twenty years, learning much as you go.

You can also train for one year, and repeat that year 19 times, not every knowing if it is any good or not. Do the former.

Good luck.


Mark

[hyaku]

Eiter deal or leave, either way quit complaining and/or justifying your feelings.
will


Originally posted by S.Jubei
Well i must say that was a helpful comment!
Why did you even bother?

I though it was abrupt but to the point.

Its martial arts we are doing not ping pong. Why do you bother?

[Jeff Hamacher]

i agree with most of the comments i've read here in response to the apparent problem. some thoughts:

1) if you think that your teacher is a bully, it may well be true. some teachers have a mean streak, and they way they express it with their students may not be especially justifiable. these are the kinds of teachers to avoid. on the other hand, i've studied under teachers that left plenty of sore spots on my body, but did so because that is the nature of the art that they teach. it is the nature of training in at least some martial arts that students will experience (and dole out) painful techniques. if you aren't prepared for that, then investigate arts which don't leave you black and blue.

if you really don't feel comfortable getting hit in the way that your teacher hits you, then follow the advice you see in this thread about discussing it (calmly and reasonably) with your teacher or going somewhere else for training. this is a judgment that you have to make for yourself. no one would (or should) fault you for saying, "this is not what i want to spend my valuable free time on".

2) i would forget about arguing with your teacher over when you will test for grading. as Mark points out, it's far more important to train for the sake of training well and learning well, not for the sake of earning a shiny new belt to show off. more patience and less ego will always serve you well in budo.

[S.Jubei]

Originally posted by Jeff Hamacher
i agree with most of the comments i've read here in response to the apparent problem. some thoughts:

1) if you think that your teacher is a bully, it may well be true. some teachers have a mean streak, and they way they express it with their students may not be especially justifiable. these are the kinds of teachers to avoid. on the other hand, i've studied under teachers that left plenty of sore spots on my body, but did so because that is the nature of the art that they teach. it is the nature of training in at least some martial arts that students will experience (and dole out) painful techniques. if you aren't prepared for that, then investigate arts which don't leave you black and blue.

if you really don't feel comfortable getting hit in the way that your teacher hits you, then follow the advice you see in this thread about discussing it (calmly and reasonably) with your teacher or going somewhere else for training. this is a judgment that you have to make for yourself. no one would (or should) fault you for saying, "this is not what i want to spend my valuable free time on".

2) i would forget about arguing with your teacher over when you will test for grading. as Mark points out, it's far more important to train for the sake of training well and learning well, not for the sake of earning a shiny new belt to show off. more patience and less ego will always serve you well in budo.


I agree with what you have said and just want to say that i dont mind getting hit and getting marks etc. Its when he bullies other student who i see with my own eyes cannot take it.
I know that my teacher just has a mean streak as i have seen alot of teachers in my time and the best i have seen are strickt but well mannered and even though they make contact with their student they handle it and its well under control.
I have actually seen my teacher kick someone in the neck for asking a question he didnt like.
I also agree on the belt system and how patience is a virtue, but half the time we do silly games and dont even do any sort of martial art practice. I would love it if there was MORE contact.
My teacher doesnt even look into the art much and does not know anything about the history of it or anything Japanese related.
An example is i asked why the term "Ous" is used to say yes instead of "Hai" and he asked what the hell "Hai" meant!

Anyway thankyou to those of you who gave me good information, i apreciate it and have thought alot over.

[Gloi]

What part of the uk are you in? There may well be someone on this list who knows of another school in your area that you don't know about that would suit you.
If you are truly unhappy in your school there's no point in carrying on with it, spend your free time doing something you enjoy. However in the end the harsh teachers can sometimes be the ones that produce good results and you should have a look at the senior students at the school and think - 'are these people how I would like to be in x years time?' and if so try to motivate yourself to train with a positive attitude.
I'm a 1st kyu and in the years I've been training I've been hit, shouted at , reduced to tears in humiliation and seem to have a constant supply of new bruises. Sometimes I don't want to train but then I go and have a great session and feel very positive again, it's just a matter of sticking at it through the good and bad times and not giving up.

[DJ Tucson]

I have been training for oooo a long time. I am 29 and started MA when I was o about 9 or so I think I truely know about 3 kata, This inclued about a year of you guessed it shotokan. I have been shown at least 50 plus kata in my life time that I knew (the movements) I do 25 at best and like I said Know about 3.



Karate is not rank and every time I have ever tested I did not want to. I was forced.

Control, the olly thing I will say is. control is NOT: do karte poorly just so you don't hurt anyone. Control is doing the block or strike corectly with out anyone being killed, or hurt. As in if everyone in your class in in good health you are just a wimp and need to buck up. This is not dance class.

Let me help you never complain never explain

[shotofan]

I agree with DJ. This karate not a dance class. You are learning to defend yourself, or worst case, hurt some one stupid enough not to back off of you when you proved you could defend your self.
If you think tour sensei is a bully than I would say leave. If you won't leave than deal with and stop whinning.

[S.Jubei]

~_~ I am not whinning. Simply explaining my point!
I think alot of people who have posted obviously either read my post wrong or have not read my replies! So i will repeat this.... I DONT MIND GETTING HIT! Its got nothing to do with being hit in any way!
Its his ATTITUDE! Get that? Like i said befor i love getting hit to remind me its a martial art and NOT a dance class like you say.
I am not going to expect anymore replies to this thread because most have just been useless comments saying "Stop whinning". Thankyou to the people who gave valid and good points.
I just thought there might be other people out there with ignorent teachers and maybe it wasnt only mine!
It's not just me who complains, it is our whole club so its not just me "whinning". So quit being so Ignorent yourself's and try to open your mind a little bit and think.

[larsen_huw]

Right:

Lets break this down.

1. You obviously aren't enjoying your training.

THEN WHY HAVEN'T YOU LEFT YET?


What advice were you hoping to get from us?

If you're not enjoying your training, don't train at that dojo. Life's too short to do things you don't enjoy volentarily.

I think starting this thread was a mistake on your behalf. I do not doubt you when you say you aren't whining, and you don't mind getting hit ... BUT ... i can also read.

This whole thread reads very much like a whining brat wanting peer vindication for walking away from their training because they think it's too hard.

I'm not a mind reader, so i don't know if that is your motive. Only you know that. However, everyone here can read, and so can see what this reads like.

You're not doing yourself any favours by continually posting defenses of your motives on this thread. The best thing you can do is stop posting here and make your decision.

[shotofan]

Originally posted by S.Jubei

My Karate teacher is SUCH a mean git when it comes to grading. For example im not being big headed but i had been for 4 months and he said i was not good enough to grade for my first belt!
Thanks [/B]

Sounds like whinning to me. You think you are better than the sensei says. So insted of using it as a learning tool you complain. If you are so unhappy leave. And yes you are whinning. That quote says to me is.. I know I'm better than what my sensei says so he is mean..

[RobertW]

Back in the days, it was common to learn only one form for 4 years!
Dude, you are a big boy, you can make your own decisions, but I have to say you picked the wrong place to complain. Sounds to me like you got a hard liner. It could be good.
BTW about the bullyeque guy? Guess what. Most Dojos have someone like that.
In my Dojo it's ME!:laugh:HAHAHAHAHA!!! :laugh:

[Old Dragon]

Originally posted by S.Jubei
Hello all

Ok i have been studying Shotokan Karate for about 5 months now and have to say that my Karate teacher is not the best of the bunch!
First of all he just doesnt space the lessons out well and we dont learn Kata like at all. We seem to just repeat things that are not really important! I have been there 5 months and have not been taught the second Kata once yet!
Secondly hes a bully and seems to enjoy putting down other students.
He also complains about peoples control but likes to hit his students when demonstrating techniques.
I'm just getting really fed up with his ways now and am temptedto stop going but the problem is i really like Karate and dont want to stop doing it all together. The only other Martial art around me is TaeKwonDo which i attended for 1 year. I liked it but prefur Japense arts by miles.
When i did Taekwondo the teacher was good and let his students grade every 3 months.
My Karate teacher is SUCH a mean git when it comes to grading. For example im not being big headed but i had been for 4 months and he said i was not good enough to grade for my first belt! I disagreed so he let me grade saying i will fail and i got a 1st class grade and had so many students come up to me and comment on how well i did.
There are lots of students who deserve to move on but he doesnt let them because he likes to be Mr. in Control!
I know very well that when the next grading comes he wont let me grade when i KNOW i am good enough and would probably get another 1st but he saw the attention i got and wont let me grade this time for sure.

I just really dont know what to do as i love Karate and going to the grading and seeing really good sensei was a really great feeling.

Ok now im asking your opionons...
What do think i should do?

Please help :(

Thanks




First: you are only a beginner, and I dont want to sound rude but be patient and let the instructor decide what things are important. As to learning kata......... well a good instructor teaches you when your ready.


Someone stated it was hard to determine what was actually happening here with the instructor and that is true. I will tell you this, my sensei hits you about 10% of what he could..and it hurts...... and its a lesson. (By the way, i'm over 50 )

Dont ever think that a punch that hurts is excessive, it is conditioning. In fact it is an example of how you should strive to punch.

5 months is frustrating time. You are thinking you are learning karate and really you are working on how to walk. That is not far from the truth either.

5 years we tend to think we know it all.......... then Sensei gives you a good lesson and you realize what a beginner we really are.

15 years we really tuck our thumbs in our belts and puff out our chests....... Then Sensei gives us a lesson and we realize what a beginner we really are.

25 years, and the day before you go to visit Sensei he phones and says... ohhhh be prepared to test............ sheesh... and you spend an hour trying to talk him out of it. But of course you cant....

Oh I wish I only had 5 months in. But the biggest thing at 5 months is that we really dont know how to judge our sensei. I have had people that study with my sensei say that years ago they started with him and left cause he was "different" Now 20 years later they say.... "We had no Idea what we were walking away from"


Mike O'Leary



PS: (Derrick.......be prepared to test shodan next week )

[shotofan]

Old dragon said it all. I have 8 years and I still learn new things.

[Wounded Ronin]

Well, the way I see it, there are two possibilities. I cannot tell which possibility is the case based only on the words on my monitor.

1.) Your teacher is a bully and control freak, in which case you should just leave.

2.) You are just afraid of getting hit and are obsessed with belts.

I studied judo for like 3 years before getting a yellow belt in it. I didn't even want to test because I didn't care about the belts and in the lessons everyone was taught the same material as long as the instructor knew that they had a basic foundation. The best teachers that I have studied under didn't even use a belt system.

Getting red welts on your arms from blocking is good conditioning. SHotokan is famous for its hard block, after all. When I do training in Eastern striking arts, me and my friends always bang forearms together hard for a long time. We get bruises and that kind of thing, but no one complaints because it's conditioning. It's getting your blocking implements physically used to hard impacts, and it's getting you mentally ready so that you can have the kind of pain tolerance that you need.

If your instructor is hitting hard but is not being abusive, then getting hit is a very beneficial thing. Your body gets used to being hit, mentally you won't be as scared if someone hits you in a real fight, and your pain tolerance goes up.

Let me tell you a little story. At one point in my life I was studying martial arts under an ex-marine. We would do full contact kick boxing, and he would really lay into me. So, for example, if he caught my leg, he would execute those thai-style takedowns where you slam your shin into the supporting leg and seesaw your opponent forcefully into the ground. At close range, he would barrage me with boxing punches. I was totally overwhelmed by the flurry of hard blows. At longer ranges, he would thai kick the side of my thighs repeatedly, which causes considerable soreness, cramping, and temporarily inhibits normal function of the leg. After someone kicks your leg like that repeatedly, you'll limp on that leg for 2 days.

Anyway, in spite of this, the fellow was not abusive. He was a very kind and nurturing person.

Later on, me and some old friends got together and had a big freestyle full contact practice fight. Because I was used to getting hit, not psychologically afraid of getting hit, and because I had a trained pain tolerance, I found that I was at a great advantage. I could simply absorb many blows and maintain an aggressive offense in spite of them.

So, provided that your teacher is not actually abusive, he may be helping you a great deal by hitting you hard.

[tddeangelo]

You can't go to the other dojo because it's 18 miles away? Tell that to my sensei, who travels over 100 miles one way to train with his sensei. My house is halfway between my sensei's house and HIS sensei's dojo. We carpool on Sunday mornings. To make the 8AM iaido class, we have leave my house at 6:30AM. We train in iaido for 1.5 hours, then change and do another 1.5 hours of jujutsu. Then an hour drive home for me, and another hour on top of that for him. I get home around 1PM if we get lunch on the way home. He gets home closer to 3PM.

In the US, especially RURAL parts, budo means travel. Sometimes great distances. Get used to it, and be glad you're into karate. If you had been inspired to take something more rare (like anything authentically koryu, and even most kendo/kenjutsu or iaido/iaijutsu styles), you'd likely be driving MUCH more than 18 miles!

Just some food for thought...

As the others said, you can:

(1) Deal with it and stay

(2) Not deal with it and quit training (either temporarily or permanently) and/or change to another style

or

(3) Commute the 18 miles to the other dojo. Where there's a will, there's a way! You CAN get there if you are motivated enough to figure out how to do it.

Pick any one of those 3 choices.

Regards,

[Old Dragon]

My sensei lives in Oceanside California I live in Vancouver canada....... Need we say more about distance?

Mike O'Leary

[MarkF]

A couple of years ago, I was training with a teacher almost twenty years my senior, about 6'5" and around 300 lb. He was a highly regarded Kodokan Judo/Kyokushinkaikan teacher.

Well, as I'm "only judoka (his description of me when trying to block punches), he suddenly hit me with about half of what he had (he held back, so I was told) but it burned right down to the bone in my tricep area. I tried to maintain my composure, and just as I thought I was going to make it, he hit me again, in the same place, and used nearly all of what he had. He did so because I failed to block his first punch. He was also using protection/armor (hard plastic on the inside of the wrist/forearm,). The resulting huge bruise took weeks to stop hurting and months to heal completely. I learned a valuable lesson.

Now, when I go, I let someone else hit me, but someone always hits me. The lesson? I realized, in relation to life itself, pain doesn't hurt, life hurts much more than pain.


Mark

[Old Dragon]

Yes Sensei can give a lesson cant they? The thing is we have to be open to learning them and I agree that sometimes the lesson that hurts is the lesson that is learned.

A few years back after visiting with sensei and training for 8 hours I was doing kata and in the fatigue I guess my head was down. He hauled me aside in a big loud fan fare, stood me infront of the class and talked about focus and where the eyes should be focused on.

First he said... watch my hands, we stood facing each other within arms reach, the object was that he was going to "slap" me as I tried to block. I could not keep up. I guess the expression to describe this experience would be ......... "Why do I hear bells and birds"

Next he said, watch his torso, the point of balance in the chest between the arms, while not focusing on that point but using perifrial vision. This time I managed to block every strike and they in fact came faster as I managed to block the slaps. He laughed, we went faster... alot of fun...

Then he said... Now watch my hands again...... well I was still recovering from the first go round. I laughed and made light of it, and basiclly he was surprised that I resisted but I openly admitted if he hit me again like he had I would probably go down. I told him flat out...I had learned the lesson.............. and I had....

I know use the same technique to instill in fighters in my own dojo the same practice... its a one shot deal......... and you learn... is it excessive...well I didnt think so....and no body has complained to me yet........... but they all "gaze' in the right direction and use perifrial vision..hahahhahahha


Mike O'Leary.

[Mekugi]

Jubei,

Take up boxing instead.

-Russ

[MikeWilliams]

LOL @ boxing. He's going to reeeeallly enjoy that!

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Mike, he could always come and join us since he's in the UK :D

Well, I still experience racism in my dojang as I'm the only White guy there and the rest are Korean university students from the language college across the road!!!

I'm always the guy who (used to) get picked for demos and stuff and get the utter crap beaten out of me. But I liked it! They never ment to be horrible when no one wanted to pair with us, it was just one of those things.

Now since being there for 5 years I'm like part of the family since there are only 13 of us in class! but they still call me names, I just say them back now ;) (They are calling me 'A4' now after a piece of paper!)

It's an obsticle unfortunatly. Some martial arts these days are scared to hit there students, it's MA for gods sake! I remember having to beg my instructor to teach me since I was white. Getting hit hard, and him saying, "Go to a War reenactment society if you want to dress up, pretend to fight and not get hurt."

I must admit that my Wing Chun training for getting hurt is much worse though. In my 2nd Yellow grading I had a HUGE welt on my chest from getting punched about 2000 times from chain punching drills.

Some people want an easy route to a certain goal that they have perceved ;)

Cheers

[Joel H.]

Stick with it. He's being nice if he lacked control and was a true bully people would be carted off in ambulances. The harder the sensei is the tougher you will come out.

By the way some sensei belive if you ask for advancment to make you wait 6 months, if you wine its 2 years.

[shotofan]

I don't think he is responding. He didn't get the answers he wanted so he is not coming back. He wanted everybody to say quit so he could jusify quitting.

[S.Jubei]

Originally posted by shotofan
I don't think he is responding. He didn't get the answers he wanted so he is not coming back. He wanted everybody to say quit so he could jusify quitting.

No that is not the reason.
I have had all the information i needed and thank the people who gave good advice. I know i have been a bit whinny and i am sorry it seemed that way. I guess you people just cannot know what i am talking about untill you have a lesson by him yourself.
People seem to think i mind getting hit and obviously didnt read my posts properly. I was not to moved by my teacher. IT was the way he treated others that upset me most.

Anyways enough of this post its a tad boring.
I'm still atending Lessons but i think i will also take up Aikido to see what its like and if i prefur it i will do that instead. the teacher is MUCH better and has truely looked into his art and doesnt just do it for the label "Black belt".

Thanks
Take care

[Robert Cheshire]

What makes the Aikido teacher MUCH better? From what I've read of your post you have about 1 1/2 years of MA practice. Aikido would be your third style change. While it does take awhile to find your niche I'm not sure you are really qualified to with that little time in to make a real good judgement.

There are several reasons that an instructor may act the way you have described him (then again he could be the bigest jerk alive). Done correctly, most techniques hurt regardless of the power behind them. There are also times that teachers have to hit or throw a little bit harder to remind the student that there is a reason why they are the student and he/she is the teacher. A wise Sensei once told me "to make a tree bear fruit you sometimes have to trim a few branches." This was in response to asking him how to deal with problem students.

Every student must make up their mind if they wish to continue or quit. Just a reminder that there is potential for "abusive" instructors in any style. There are hard styles in aikido as well. The two better ones that come to mind are Yoseikan and Yoshinkan.

By the way, I took shotokan for several years and we focused on the same handful of kata for much of that time. We also had to do knuckle push-ups when we made our teacher angry. One time we even had to do them on the track at our football field. He hit us hard and we did several hours of hard blocking drills with partners and him swinging a shinai at us.

I can't say how much I agree with the others saying that you (or most students) are in NO way qualified to say when you (they) are ready to be tested. I have seen people have a test delayed due to asking. I also have heard about a black belt test where the student told the grading instructor how he wanted to test and what he did not want to be on the test. Well, he did a very long and complete test (with the things he didn't wante to test for) before the instructor informed him that he was not ready for that test. A couple of years later the guy changed his tune a bit and had to go throught the complete test again and passed. One of my own test was delayed for about a year because of an attitude I developed over a misunderstanding my Sensei and I had. I changed my attitude and progressed. My teacher and I worked out our differences and are good friends. I didn't like it at the time, but, looking back I realize that I probably deserved most of the treatment I received due to my thoughts of entitlement.

Hope you find what you're looking for.

[Old Dragon]

Originally posted by Robert Cheshire
What makes the Aikido teacher MUCH better? From what I've read of your post you have about 1 1/2 years of MA practice. Aikido would be your third style change. While it does take awhile to find your niche I'm not sure you are really qualified to with that little time in to make a real good judgement.

There are several reasons that an instructor may act the way you have described him (then again he could be the bigest jerk alive). Done correctly, most techniques hurt regardless of the power behind them. There are also times that teachers have to hit or throw a little bit harder to remind the student that there is a reason why they are the student and he/she is the teacher. A wise Sensei once told me "to make a tree bear fruit you sometimes have to trim a few branches." This was in response to asking him how to deal with problem students.

Every student must make up their mind if they wish to continue or quit. Just a reminder that there is potential for "abusive" instructors in any style. There are hard styles in aikido as well. The two better ones that come to mind are Yoseikan and Yoshinkan.

By the way, I took shotokan for several years and we focused on the same handful of kata for much of that time. We also had to do knuckle push-ups when we made our teacher angry. One time we even had to do them on the track at our football field. He hit us hard and we did several hours of hard blocking drills with partners and him swinging a shinai at us.

I can't say how much I agree with the others saying that you (or most students) are in NO way qualified to say when you (they) are ready to be tested. I have seen people have a test delayed due to asking. I also have heard about a black belt test where the student told the grading instructor how he wanted to test and what he did not want to be on the test. Well, he did a very long and complete test (with the things he didn't wante to test for) before the instructor informed him that he was not ready for that test. A couple of years later the guy changed his tune a bit and had to go throught the complete test again and passed. One of my own test was delayed for about a year because of an attitude I developed over a misunderstanding my Sensei and I had. I changed my attitude and progressed. My teacher and I worked out our differences and are good friends. I didn't like it at the time, but, looking back I realize that I probably deserved most of the treatment I received due to my thoughts of entitlement.

Hope you find what you're looking for.


Robert... well said..........

If I may add a small example to this....

I have been running a small dojo for 13 years now, I have been teaching for close to 20. Last week I graded a 14 year old boy to shodan. He was the second person under 16 to reach shodan. The first was an exception and my sensei told me to grade him after 5 years of training. The current student had also trained for almost 5 years. He can lead adult classes, he knows his theory and in his test i set him against 3 adult black belts that commented that when he was thrown to the floor he was still fighting back as he hit the ground, kicking and punching.

Admittedly he is not as strong but he has the moves, he has the understanding and he has the heart.......... so he received shodan. He trained with me a long time and took his lumps, he can also out fight anyone in the club that is within 3 years of his age in either direction. During his test he got hurt a few times, took a good one in the head,,,, didnt break down....... kept going, showed real heart and perseverence... attitude....

What is the most important thing in karate.... (yes this is a test) attitude........or Ability...... ???????????

Ability only doesnt mean we will learn... but with the right attitude we can learn anything......


Train hard, find a Sensei you trust, cultivate an open heart....... then hit'em with a brick.. then use karate....

Mike O'leary

[tsurashi shondo]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Old Dragon
What is the most important thing in karate.... (yes this is a test) attitude........or Ability...... ???????????
---------------------------------------
Only thing I can add to that.......Shotokan is a HARD style. Don't be a softie.

[Old Dragon]

Well said Sean.... good attitude...


Mike O'Leary

[ivan_yulaev]

I've been doing Kendo for over a year, and BJJ for close to a year, and I haven't been graded in either. Don't worry about it, it doesn't mean anything...besides, when many people say "Yeah, i'm a black belt in TKD/Karate!", most of the time, I just laugh because they need to point that out to feel big.

However, the fact that your teacher picks on his students is a sign of immaturity. All my instructors have different characters (I practice Iai-Jutsu+Kenjutsu+Jo-jutsu in one dojo under several instructors, Kendo in another, BJJ under a third set, and Judo under a fourth), but out of all my instructors, not one is abusive or unsupportive. Some are sterner than others, some yell at you more, but at the end of the day, you will have learned something and they will have supported you.

[tellner]

Originally posted by tsurashi shondo
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Old Dragon
What is the most important thing in karate.... (yes this is a test) attitude........or Ability...... ???????????
---------------------------------------
Only thing I can add to that.......Shotokan is a HARD style. Don't be a softie.

"Attitude without technique beats technique without attitude"

[Skip Cooper]

I agree that too much emphasis is placed on rank and time in rank. In the art that I practice, there are no gradings under shodan (in fact, everyone wears a black belt from the beginning). This really appeals to me. I will test for shodan, when my sensei tells me that it is time that I start thinking about what I will do for shodan testing. There usually is no announcement in class, no fanfare, if you know your up you will have been notified.

As far as the boredom of repetion goes:

I have an uncle who has trained in Aikido for many years. He told me that for the first 6 months of his training all he did when he came to class was falls and rolls, falls and rolls, falls and rolls...he did not learn any techniques until he could perform all of his falls and rolls with perfection. Then it was another 6 months until his first grading.

I have also read that the early students of Karate in Okinawa learned each kata in stages. The teacher would only show them on part of a single kata. The student would have to work on that sample constantly until the teacher was satisfied with his progress. Only then would the student be shown another part of the same kata. Also it took the students 10 years before they recieved shodan, and then their training would begin. They would spend 10 years punching, blocking, kicking, and doing kata without any explanation. No questions asked, none answered. After 10 years, (those dedicated enough to put up with this for 10 years)the student would find out why he was punching, kicking, etc.

And as far as an abusive teacher:

If this teacher has been abusive, then I would think that there would have been criminal charges filed against him or lawsuits for injuries (any good attorney can get around those waivers). The student of said teacher paints him out to be like the teacher of the "Cobra Kai" in the "Karate Kid" movie. Where is Miyagi-san when you need him?

I agree that this teacher is helping his students with striking them. I like to think of it as thinning the herd, those that can't grin and bear it will quit. When I played football in high school, my coach would participate in the hitting drills to show us our errors. When I wrestled, there where many times that my coach would take me down over and over, while I struggled to defend his takedown. This was how they could help you improve. I have always respected them when they got involved, like being uke in the martial arts.

If your teacher is passive (especially in shotokan) with his students, then how will they respond to the real life bully who is prepared to take your wallet, car, or even your life? IMHO, there is no substitute for hard training, especially for self defense.

"If you can't run with the big dogs, then stay on the porch."

[Loukopoulos]

I believe if you stop using your energy in complaining and use it instead to repeat 1000 times each basic technique, might improve enough to be noticed...

To train while keeping your eyes open for another school is not 100 % training and is best that you quit in order to allow another person to take up that space. It is completely unfair to an instructor to be using his/her time to instruct students who are there half hearted...

I remember I wore brown belt (Ni Kyu) for fours years...was a Nidan for eleven years... forever grateful, for it gave me time to mature, to understand and to grow...

[Loukopoulos]

Sorry,
I posted this in the wrong thread.
This goes in the thread where there was a student who wanted to be promoted after a few months...
Sorry, I'm oing outside todo a lot of push ups..

[CIM-BA]

Complaining about when to test?

If you were my student - I'd test you the day after the world ended.

Seriously, if you don't like the philosophy of the school, I'd doubt the doors are locked from the inside leading out.

[Matt Molloy]

Originally posted by shotofan
I agree with DJ. This karate not a dance class.

A small point. I know many, many martial artists that would not survive a ballet class. :D

Aside from that, like everyone else has said. If you don't like it, leave. There is no nicer way to say it.

Cheers,

Matt.

[Old Dragon]

Originally posted by tellner
"Attitude without technique beats technique without attitude"

Agreed, first comes attitude, with that the student can learn anything. In my quote earlier about which is more important "Attitude or Ability" the point is that ability alone wont carry the torch, first come attitude, that will lead the way and attitude will develop technique.

Mike O'Leary

[urbalte]

Originally posted by S.Jubei
~_~ I am not whinning. Simply explaining my point!
I think alot of people who have posted obviously either read my post wrong or have not read my replies! So i will repeat this.... I DONT MIND GETTING HIT! Its got nothing to do with being hit in any way!
Its his ATTITUDE! Get that? Like i said befor i love getting hit to remind me its a martial art and NOT a dance class like you say.
I am not going to expect anymore replies to this thread because most have just been useless comments saying "Stop whinning". Thankyou to the people who gave valid and good points.
I just thought there might be other people out there with ignorent teachers and maybe it wasnt only mine!
It's not just me who complains, it is our whole club so its not just me "whinning". So quit being so Ignorent yourself's and try to open your mind a little bit and think.

Dude...you're whining. Knock it off.

[carl mcclafferty]

Hyaku is right you would really be bored in JSA. The first three years in Sekiguchi Ryu Batto Jutsu revolve aroung the first six sword kata and basics. Of course its hard to get bored when you're doing tobichigai a hundred times or so a class. My dear, departed father use to say "if it was easy, everyone would do it". Ever try tennis?
Carl McClafferty

[urbalte]

Originally posted by carl mcclafferty
Hyaku is right you would really be bored in JSA. The first three years in Sekiguchi Ryu Batto Jutsu revolve aroung the first six sword kata and basics. Of course its hard to get bored when you're doing tobichigai a hundred times or so a class. My dear, departed father use to say "if it was easy, everyone would do it". Ever try tennis?
Carl McClafferty

I've kinda been interested in learning a little of some of the oolder techniques of Batto Jutsu as well. Sadly, all of my internet searches (ok, so I am a bit lazy) have turned up with nothing. Can you possibly guide me in the right direction or tell me if there are any schools back stateside? I'm currently studying Toyama Ryu over here in Japan right now, but when I return to Texas (I'm probably going to need to hook up with Smith Sensai up in Plano) I would like to continue my martial arts training. Also....anyone think about opening a Toyama Dojo in the Austin area? Heh heh. That would make the commute a whole lot easier for me since Plano is at least 5 hours way north. Thanks.

[carl mcclafferty]

Jon:
Paul Smith in Plano teaches SGR, he can set you up.

Carl McClafferty

[urbalte]

Originally posted by carl mcclafferty
Jon:
Paul Smith in Plano teaches SGR, he can set you up.

Carl McClafferty

Can I get a little scoop on the history of SGR? I'm getting little goose pimples from the excitement. :) (No Kidding)
Also, does SGR do Tameshigiri or no? I'm cool either way, I just want to learn.