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John Lindsey
3rd March 2004, 22:39
http://www.wakefieldtoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=702&ArticleID=747790

Family's swords are drawn


AN awesome foursome have tested their mettle in some of the toughest martial arts skills to prove their sword is their bond.


The martial arts-mad Bailey family all hold black belts in wado-ryu karate, with 10-year-old Trevor and Rebecca, 12, passing the tough qualification when they were only eight and 10 respectively.
Proud dad Trevor, 34, said he had practised martial arts when he was younger but had become interested again five years ago after his son took up the discipline.
He said: "When Trevor was five my brother bought him a karate suit and we took him to classes and he did really well, picking up a trophy after just six weeks.
"When his sister saw how much he enjoyed it and how well he was doing, she wanted to try.
"In the end, my wife Teresa and i were taking the kids to classes and watching them practise so much we thought we should join in too."
In the years since, the family have all scooped martial arts awards from their base at Chuldow Martial Arts, on Cheapside, Wakefield.
Young Trevor recently eclipsed his dad and sister by gaining his black belt in iaido, which involves using the katana, or samurai sword.
Mr Bailey said: "Trevor really enjoys it and it's really skilful. We recently bought him an adult sword for his birthday and when an instructor saw him draw it they said he was unbelievable for his age.
"Doing martial arts has really brought us together as a family."
He added: "When we go to competitions and classes people say 'The Baileys are here'."



03 March 2004

Paulo K. Ogino
3rd March 2004, 22:50
hmmm... I don't know... but somehow I feel this qualifies for krappy karate kamae.... it doesn't say anywhere in the article which school or Iaido style they practice. I think it is positive to have all the family sharing the same interest in such a fine martial art, but with responsability and the proper respect to the japanese sword.

ulvulv
3rd March 2004, 22:58
Everything looks better after four Baileys.


:p

John Lindsey
3rd March 2004, 23:00
Well, at least the kid looks better than everyone else in the Krappy kamae thread :).

AlexM
3rd March 2004, 23:03
This sounds totally impossible/ridiculous to me.

According to the Canadian Kendo Federation (that oversees some of the iaido in Canada...) the minimum age for shodan in iaido is 14 years old. I can't imagine that any federation linked to the International Kendo Federation (such as the CKF, AUSKF, BKF, etc.) would have less stringent rules concerning age and granting of shodan. There is no minimum age for ikkyu however.

Baffling, bad or sad budo?

Paulo K. Ogino
3rd March 2004, 23:13
Originally posted by John Lindsey
Well, at least the kid looks better than everyone else in the Krappy kamae thread :).

Sure he looks cool :p

:smilejapa

CMM
3rd March 2004, 23:22
...http://www.chuldow.com/

Personally, I'm interested in their "dairy."

R A Sosnowski
4th March 2004, 00:19
I cannot decide ...

is this a candidate for the "Krappy Karate Katana Kamae" thread, ...

or does this belong to the "Bad Budo" forum?

SeventhSentinel
4th March 2004, 03:01
interesting cuz on their hompage under iaido it says 12+ for training age

ulvulv
4th March 2004, 10:27
Originally posted by CMM
...http://www.chuldow.com/

Personally, I'm interested in their "dairy."


Those who manage to watch all the pictures without a break, earns an e-budoka blackbelt, and receives the 2004 zanshin award.

http://www.chuldow.com/1024/gallery.php

Blackwood
4th March 2004, 11:47
Good Grief! I saw all the thumbnails, but didn't open any of them.

ulvulv
4th March 2004, 12:12
Originally posted by Blackwood
Good Grief! I saw all the thumbnails, but didn't open any of them.

I have opened one, and then my zanshin broke

mingshi
4th March 2004, 13:53
In Kendo Nippon 2004 #2, there is a section on a Iaido Taikai at Kagoshima. One of the pics shows s few primary school girls doing Enbu. Not sure what is the standard age of starting Iaido in Japan, but being young(er) is not a serious problem (of course, provide that you know what you are doing).

p.s. I like their colourful mat :)

Charlie Kondek
4th March 2004, 14:21
We recently bought him an adult sword for his birthday...

By "adult sword" is meant a larger iaito or a practice katana with an edge?!

:eek:

SLeclair
4th March 2004, 14:56
I like how they wear their karate belts over their hakama. Maybe that's what they mean by iaido black belt. Practice Iaido with a karate black belt.

Their homepage says the instructor is 5th dan, but no link or mention of what association they're a part of. Suspect.

Chidokan
4th March 2004, 20:48
My son started kendo aged six after several attempts to put him off (you can't go to the pub after training with a six year old, its his bedtime...) by ten he decided to start iaido because some of the teenagers in the club were doing it, and we finally allowed him to put in for shodan (after being TOLD to by our 7th dan iaido teacher from ZNKR) about three months before his 14th birthday. There were complaints from other members even then about breaking the rules. I think he would have took and passed nidan comfortably by the time he was 15, but rules is rules. Again the same ZNKR teacher wanted him up for it. The 'wait until 18 for nidan rule' finally put paid to his training, (along with girls and guitars), after he turned 16. Eight years to nidan is a long time in anyones book, but for a young boy it must be an eternity... I suppose he could be quite good by now (at 27) if he'd kept going!

gendzwil
4th March 2004, 20:52
Originally posted by Chidokan
Eight years to nidan is a long time in anyones book
It's 9 years to shodan here for judo.

gmanry
4th March 2004, 22:12
It's 9 years to shodan here for judo.

I don't understand these types of time in grade. Why spend 9 years getting somebody to something as mundane as shodan ranking? It makes me ask, "What is wrong with the instruction?"

I have run into so many people who have come from schools where it is 7 years or more to shodan. When I work with these people they are no better than people I meet who got shodan in 3 or 4 years under competent and dedicated instruction. In fact, these people really didn't seem to improve much after shodan at all, they just hang everything on how long they "struggled" to get to shodan.

I don't get it, sorry. In Japan, shodan in judo can be acquired in as little as two years, and some of those people are quite good in that time frame, not expert mind you, but competent in the basic waza. So, why this huge discrepancy? Why is there all this front loading on the shodan rank?

Unfortunately, and I am not saying it is the case in your area, it is usually that the instructor is fleecing the students and keeping them at low rank to protect his or her position because he or she has stopped training with their seniors.

gendzwil
4th March 2004, 22:21
Originally posted by gmanry

Unfortunately, and I am not saying it is the case in your area, it is usually that the instructor is fleecing the students and keeping them at low rank to protect his or her position because he or she has stopped training with their seniors.
No, these are guidelines for time in rank that are quite common in this province and may (I'm not sure) be mandated by the provincial association. I train at a small family dojo where the yearly fees are less than some dojo's monthly fees - he's got no ulterior motive.

I have noticed that the local judoka, not only in our club but in others, speak of "black belt" with a certain amount of reverence or whatever. I'd have to say that in terms of skill level, I'd equate the local shodan in judo with a sandan in kendo - at the point where all the waza are known, and from a pure technical POV there's not a lot left to learn.

Chrono
5th March 2004, 03:40
Originally posted by John Lindsey
[B]"When Trevor was five my brother bought him a karate suit and we took him to classes and he did really well, picking up a trophy after just six weeks."/B]

A trophy after just six weeks? I some what doubt that. But I could be wrong about this.


I have opened one, and then my zanshin broke

Ok, I saw that and something jumped out at me, and I think this was what you were getting at. The dude didn't look like he was holding the sword properly.

Jon

hyaku
5th March 2004, 03:42
If I showed that picture here in Japan of the family they would say, "Kawaiiiiiii or Guuu(Good). Thats what its all about".

Feel sorry for the kid who probably fell over the belt and broke his leg after the picture was taken.

Brian Owens
5th March 2004, 06:58
Originally posted by Chrono
Ok, I saw that and something jumped out at me, and I think this was what you were getting at. The dude didn't look like he was holding the sword properly.
Oh my! Now that picture belongs in the KKKK thread!

Both hands are back at the kashira end of the tsuka, the tsuba's working its way up the blade, the tsubadome isn't securing the tsuba at all...I could go on and on.

Does the phrase "What's wrong with this picture" come to everyyone else's mind?

--Brian Owens

ulvulv
5th March 2004, 07:10
Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
Oh my! Now that picture belongs in the KKKK thread!

Both hands are back at the kashira end of the tsuka, the tsuba's working its way up the blade, the tsubadome isn't securing the tsuba at all...I could go on and on.

Does the phrase "What's wrong with this picture" come to everyyone else's mind?

--Brian Owens

Then I will take another one from the same page and put it in KKKK. Enjoy

Charlie Kondek
5th March 2004, 16:04
My experiences in the U.S. in re: judo shodan are the same as Neil's. The shodan is considered a VERY big deal in U.S. judo. I think in Japan it's seen as more of the "mastering the basics" ceritificate, whereas in the U.S. they really push those kyus. I have one Japanese friend who earned his black belt in high school this way: every day in school he went to club where they beat the hell out of him. Eventually he learned to keep up. Six months in, they switched his white belt for a black belt. That was it.

In the kendo circles I move in the kids don't even think about rank, they just play. Then sometime in their teens they start going for the kyus and earn dan grades over high school and college.

A buddy of mine studies a gendai jujutsu (quite good stuff, too, very randori-oriented). The black belt test is, like, 12 hours long. When I told him I would be testing for san-dan in kendo and that the test was about 3 minutes of jigeiko in front of a panel of judges (plus kata if you pass the shinai part), he said, "Eff you!" (In a nice way, of course.)

I passed, by the way! And I'm only nine years old.

:D

Chidokan
5th March 2004, 22:36
Charlie,
the EXAM is for 3 minutes, the test is all weekend and the buildup to it....I'm guessing you took the grade at the end of a weekend session...and I bet you were watched (whether you knew it or not)from the time you walked in. Thats what I do when I am grading iaido students! And if I aint seen them before, I watch them even harder..;)

ulvulv
5th March 2004, 22:43
Whats the big deal about black belts and age, its the composure and attitude that counts;

Meet kigurai, the martial hound dog

Charlie Kondek
8th March 2004, 15:31
Originally posted by Chidokan
Charlie,
the EXAM is for 3 minutes, the test is all weekend and the buildup to it....I'm guessing you took the grade at the end of a weekend session...and I bet you were watched (whether you knew it or not)from the time you walked in. Thats what I do when I am grading iaido students! And if I aint seen them before, I watch them even harder..;)

*Gulp* No fooling! Now how did I pull that off? Must have been the bribes.

gendzwil
8th March 2004, 16:56
Originally posted by Chidokan
the EXAM is for 3 minutes, the test is all weekend and the buildup to it....I'm guessing you took the grade at the end of a weekend session...and I bet you were watched (whether you knew it or not)from the time you walked in.
Not the way it works here - the Western Canada gradings are held on a Saturday afternoon. You show up, register, line up in front of the judges for the bow-in and remarks, then the next they see you is when your turn is up. Kiri-kaeshi, two 2-minute rounds of jigeiko and then kata, and it's all over but the drinking. For the quite senior ranks, most of the judges know who you are but if you're coming from out of town for nidan or sandan, they evaluate your kendo based on at most 10 minutes of performance. That sounds like a wussy test compared to these all-day torture tests, but IMNSHO the pressure is even higher - you've got a very limited time to show what you can do, and if you botch it, see you next year.

Shiro
8th March 2004, 18:18
I don't believe the Baileys......
I mean look at the kid's sword...... it's way too long for him I think, how can he draw it prperly?!

Chidokan
8th March 2004, 21:33
the 8th dan test I saw in Kyoto was the same as yours.. on for ten minutes, and god help you if you blew it, you didnt come back for the second round of the test....:(

gendzwil
8th March 2004, 22:09
Yeah, the hachidan test is a special case. One of the sensei from Vancouver was there the same year they shot the documentary and made the first cut but didn't pass. There were over 800 candidates, who were mostly professionals (police instructors, college coaches, etc). They had one round of jigeiko in front of a 7-judge panel and cut it to 60. Those candidates get to do kata, and keiko again, this time in front of all 14 judges. Unlike our gradings where a majority decision is a pass, I believe you need a pass from all 14 judges.

sunny
8th March 2004, 22:27
certain comments of having to wait years to achieve shodan or nidan, makes me think that maybe some people are placing too much importance on acheiving a certain rank. dont get me wrong, i beleive rank is important, but i respect my seniors for their abilities and their knowledge,without which rank is irrelevent.
it seems like some people want to get there NOW, and have no patience.
personally i am just happy to be training, and feel that rank is something that will come in time, but it is not my purpose in training.
i hope this doesnt offend anyone, i probley havent expressed it as eloquently as i should.
best regards,
sunny prosser

hyaku
8th March 2004, 23:56
The Kendo test in Japan from Rokudan upwards can last 30 seconds! You have to get up right from Sonkyo and show some initiative pretty smart or that little flag will soon pop up.

I see kids from elementary school to university and the police and they practice nearly every single day. The grade should be recognition of what you are doing not something to reach up for or scrape through. I want to see people do at a grading what they normally do, not what they think you can do!

There are a lot who turn up their own dojos a few months before to train and have another crack at it. People should realize that those long gaps between grading are not so you can have rest.

Some of the Hachidan I have practiced with are as far apart from Nandan as a Nidan is to a Nanadan. Then there are the "Meiyo" type.

Its helps to "been seen". Ask a dan grading panel judge along to your dojo. A few phone calls wont go amiss either.

william northcote
12th March 2004, 11:16
Originally posted by SLeclair
Their homepage says the instructor is 5th dan, but no link or mention of what association they're a part of. Suspect.

When I got told of this thread I was amazed at the context of this discussion. My old instructor handing out black belts to 10 year old for swordmanship...

I have trained with Ary Hauer some 5 years ago. Gained a red belt in Wado Ryu through him. Ary is a member of the WYSOK (West Yorkshire School of Karate) and licenced by the AMA. His students are also part of the WYSOK. Chuldow is the most recognised dojo in Wakefield and gained recognition nearly 2 years ago by building a steel cage in the basement. The local MP for Wakefield had voiced his anger over a cage in Wakefield and saying it is a drain in the NHS, resourses and so on...

Even my instructor in the Bujinkan and me are part of that website, although we have not trained there for over a year. Most of those photos were taken over 3-4 years ago showing me and the students training.

As for Ary, it is unknown what style of swordmanship he is teaching. I will pop by later and ask.

william northcote
15th March 2004, 15:52
After speaking with Ary Hauer, I told him of the thread and what was discussed. He made some comments on the fact that people like to sit in front of their PC's and make half assed comments and not really look into the situation.

The style is Iai-jutsu and the belts were handed out by a 6th Dan from Lincoln, and not by Ary himself. The 6th Dan is proficient in Okanawan weaponary and gave the grade on the competance of the person in question.

With the respect I have for Ary and his students, anything that is said regarding his dojo on a BB is not good business to a reputable dojo if anyone picks up on this thread. If any prospective student saw this it may give the wrong impression of his school. He is now aware and will make any comment to anyone that may pass through his door regarding this discussion.

Charlie Kondek
15th March 2004, 16:45
Sounds fair enough. Can't complain when something you've done makes the local news and people comment on it. If anything, the BB gives him an actual insight into what people are thinking privately and allows him opportunity to comment that he might not normally have. I take it he doesn't really do the internet thing? Cuz his comments would be welcome here. It's all out in the open, why not?

Charlie Kondek
15th March 2004, 16:48
P.S. Just went back and skimmed the thread. Seems to me nothing terribly disrespectful was said. Par for the course here at e-budo, and another reason to hold our heads up. What did YOU say to the instructor? "A bunch of people made fun of you." Or: "This ten-year-old prompted some questioning on your school and an interestign discussion on appropriate ages in martial arts."

*shrugs*

pgsmith
15th March 2004, 17:29
The reason that threads such as this one happens is because people tend to question something that is different. The reason threads like the KKKK thread happens is because people that know nothing about Japanese sword arts want to b.s. there way through it because it's cool and brings in students.
The style is Iai-jutsu and the belts were handed out by a 6th Dan from Lincoln, and not by Ary himself. The 6th Dan is proficient in Okanawan weaponary and gave the grade on the competance of the person in question.
Iai-jutsu is NOT a school or style, it is a descriptive term for the art of drawing and cutting in one motion. Okinawan weaponry [b]does not[/i] include the sword. While I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility for someone as young as that to earn shodan depending upon the school, it is a very suspicious thing that NO school or style is listed except for the generic term iai-jutsu. That, I believe, is what prompted this thread as those in the sword arts are very wary of karate teachers that think they can make up their own sword styles without proper training. It endangers the credibility of all of the legitimate schools out there.

Mr. Hauer is responsible for anything that is posted on his dojo's web site, or that takes place at his dojo. It goes with the territory of running your own dojo. Therefore, it behooves Mr. Hauer to know just exactly what credentials this 6th dan has that allow him to determine what competence a person has. Don't get me wrong, I am not disparaging Mr. Hauer as a person, or his abilities as an instructor. It just doesn't look good that when you asked him about this person teaching sword at his dojo, his answer was basically, "I don't know and people shouldn't be talking about it."

Just two more cents from another person sitting in front of his PC making half assed comments.

Cheers,

Iron Chef
15th March 2004, 17:39
I bet a 10 year old has an easier time of sitting down in tate hiza than I or most of the the guys in our dojo. :)