Japanese word

[ulvulv]

What is a good Japanese word for "perseverance" in a budo-context?

[Jeff Hamacher]

perseverance, either in a budo context or not, can most easily be translated as nintai; nintairyoku is also a possibility, but my wife says it sounds more "casual" or careless than nintai.

[Mekugi]

Gambatte.

[Brian Owens]

Gambatte: To stand firm, bear up, hang in there, try harder.

From gaman: Patience, perseverance.

I've never heard the word nintai, and I don't find it in my J-E pocket dictionary (though it's not a very comprehensive volume).

[ulvulv]

What about "stubborn" or "stupid"? Sometimes I feel like my own perseverance in budo is only a matter of being too stubborn AND stupid to quit.
Maybe there is a japanese term that incorporates all the terms stubborn, stupid and persevering?
I am looking for a new name for our small iai/jo dojo that reflects at least one basic truth about it.


:D

[Brian Owens]

You hit the nail on the head, and didn't even know it! :D

The gan in gambatte means "stubborn, obstinate."

[Brian Owens]

Šæ?ä ( ganjou ) = solid, firm, robust

ŠæŒÅ ( ganko ) = stubborn, obstinate

Šæ’£ ( ganba(ru) ) = persist in, stick to, hang in

[ulvulv]

Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi

Šæ?ä ( ganjou ) = solid, firm, robust

ŠæŒÅ ( ganko ) = stubborn, obstinate

Šæ’£ ( ganba(ru) ) = persist in, stick to, hang in


haha
thanks.
What about the endings you see used of clubs and organizations, like Budo-kan and Butoku-den and Kenkyu-Kai
What are the proper meaning and distinctions
regarding
-kan
-den
-kai

?

Kan is "house" in a social context, a social group or club?
Den is a physical house?
Kai is a large organisation, like a renmei?

Very wrong?

[Brian Owens]

"Kai" is usually translated into English as "Association" whereas "Renmei" is usually translated as "Federation."

You'd have to ask someone else (a business major or a lawyer) to tell you what the pratical difference is between them.

I don't know about kan and den, other than that the Shotokan in karate meant "Shoto's House" (Shoto was Funakoshi's pen name).

[Tri-ring]

Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
"Kai" is usually translated into English as "Association" whereas "Renmei" is usually translated as "Federation."

You'd have to ask someone else (a business major or a lawyer) to tell you what the pratical difference is between them.

I don't know about kan and den, other than that the Shotokan in karate meant "Shoto's House" (Shoto was Funakoshi's pen name).

Konbanwa Minasan,

Yagyu-san you are right, "kai" means society or association in this case group of the same teaching. "Renmei" is also right for federation. Renmei is a social group of different kai or different teaching, usually from a common origin.
Kan means house or mansion to describe the brothers sharing the same house.
As for den, This one is a new one. I have not heard of it before. If you give are able to show me the "Kanji" I know I can give you a good translation.
As a side note, ”E‘Ï=nintai if you break it down " ”E " is also the kanji for ninja " ”EŽÒ?@?hmeaning a person who is able to endure.
" ‘Ï " taeru also means to endure. So " ”E‘Ï " means to bear and endure.
ulvulv-san, I hope you give a good name to your dojo for it will be the "Face" of what you teach.
Good Luck!!

[ulvulv]

its just unqualified guesswork from me, I do not know the meaning of "den", just speculating wildly on the name "Butokuden"
How would you split Butokuden, in two kanji perhaps; Buto-kuden ?

[Tri-ring]

Originally posted by ulvulv
its just unqualified guesswork from me, I do not know the meaning of "den", just speculating wildly on the name "Butokuden"
How would you split Butokuden, in two kanji perhaps; Buto-kuden ?

Hi Ulvestad-san

Budo= " •?“¹ " means the way of the armor or martial arts.
Kuden= " Œû“` " means taught through mouth in other words no written manual.
So when added it means martial arts taught only through verbal communication.(not very authentic for a name of a dojo)
As for den could it mean the English word DEN like a bear's den?
Just guessing, but I think there are groups that call their sect this way.

[Adam Young]

Den is “a, meaning hall (though it can refer to a mansion or palace, depending on the context).

Butokuden is •?“¿“a.

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by ulvulv
its just unqualified guesswork from me, I do not know the meaning of "den", just speculating wildly on the name "Butokuden"
How would you split Butokuden, in two kanji perhaps; Buto-kuden ?
Definitely not "Buto-kuden." If I had to divide the word in two I'd pick "Butoku-den," but it's actually three words, "Bu" (Martial) - "Toku" (Virtues) - "Den" (Hall).

Butokuden = Martial Virtues Hall

Butokukai = Martial Virtues Association

And Butokuden is a very authentic name for a dojo -- if you pick the right kanji.

[Tri-ring]

Konichiwa everyone,

Adam-san you are right den or " “a " is hall which did not come to my mind.
It's pretty hard for us Japanese who takes guide through the kanji characters to understand the meaning since there are so many homonym in the Japanese language.
As for den may I make a suggestion of using the word do " “° " meaning shrine or temple instead.
Den " “a " used in words like the "the hall of fame" , maybe too gorgeous to a Japanese for a place that teaches virtue in simplicity and perseverance.
Just an opinion.

[Mekugi]

How about (city name) (martial art) dojo. Tried and true. Otherwise, I would ask you sensei to name your dojo- that's another way. Takes the pressure off fancy names and mistakes in a lot of senses. Your group motto can be a reflection of your spirit.

"not as much fun" Russ


Originally posted by Tri-ring
Konichiwa everyone,

Adam-san you are right den or " “a " is hall which did not come to my mind.
It's pretty hard for us Japanese who takes guide through the kanji characters to understand the meaning since there are so many homonym in the Japanese language.
As for den may I make a suggestion of using the word do " “° " meaning shrine or temple instead.
Den " “a " used in words like the "the hall of fame" , maybe too gorgeous to a Japanese for a place that teaches virtue in simplicity and perseverance.
Just an opinion.

[Jeff Hamacher]

Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
Gambatte: To stand firm, bear up, hang in there, try harder.

yes, ganbaru (or gambaru, if you prefer) is a good suggestion. it can express the nuance "to do one's best", so it's similar to "perseverance".

gaman: Patience, perseverance.

gaman expresses a nuance like putting up with something unpleasant (intense pain, a whip-cracking boss, etc.).

I've never heard the word nintai, and I don't find it in my J-E pocket dictionary (though it's not a very comprehensive volume).

i think you're right about your dictionary. nintai is not a really basic word in Japanese, but it's not that esoteric, either. are you using a romanized J-E dictionary? it's usually better to get one with the Japanese written in kana and kanji, and depending upon where you live, they're not extremely expensive to buy.

i'm reading this thread from a computer that can't grok Japanese, so i'm looking forward to checking it out again tonight from my own computer.

PS titles like "Butokukai" have some nasty connotations left over from the Pacific War, if memory serves ... you might want to check that out. and Russ's suggestions are good ones. the groups i trained with or saw in Japan generally used their geographic location plus a generic title, e.g. "Suwa Jodokai", where Suwa was the region and Jodokai simply means jodo training group or association.

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by Jeff Hamacher
i think you're right about your dictionary. nintai is not a really basic word in Japanese, but it's not that esoteric, either. are you using a romanized J-E dictionary? it's usually better to get one with the Japanese written in kana and kanji, and depending upon where you live, they're not extremely expensive to buy.
Yes, I need to get a good furigana dictionary. All I have right now is Martin's Pocket E-J/J-E romaji dictionary -- it's pretty basic.

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by Jeff Hamacher
perseverance, either in a budo context or not, can most easily be translated as nintai; nintairyoku is also a possibility, but my wife says it sounds more "casual" or careless than nintai.

Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
I've never heard the word nintai, and I don't find it in my J-E pocket dictionary (though it's not a very comprehensive volume).

Originally posted by Jeff Hamacher
i think you're right about your dictionary. nintai is not a really basic word in Japanese, but it's not that esoteric, either. are you using a romanized J-E dictionary? it's usually better to get one with the Japanese written in kana and kanji, and depending upon where you live, they're not extremely expensive to buy.
Okay, I got another pocket dictionary today, one with kanji and kana. Like my first one it's not really comprehensive, but it fits in my pocket. Yohan E-J/J-E Dictionary, Kaneda Fujihiko, Editor.

It gives "patience" as the translation for nintai, which isn't exactly the same as perseverance.

I still think gambatte is the best choice in a martial arts context.

[Mekugi]

”E‘Ï?@
"nintai" is also "endure"- as in patiently endure, I have just learned.



Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
Okay, I got another pocket dictionary today, one with kanji and kana. Like my first one it's not really comprehensive, but it fits in my pocket. Yohan E-J/J-E Dictionary, Kaneda Fujihiko, Editor.

It gives "patience" as the translation for nintai, which isn't exactly the same as perseverance.

I still think gambatte is the best choice in a martial arts context.

[Jeff Hamacher]

Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
It gives "patience" as the translation for nintai, which isn't exactly the same as perseverance.

the Sharp PW-9810K dictionary that i have gives "perseverance; endurance; patience; tolerance" in that order. the first entry gives as an explanation "to not give up in the face of difficulty" (my translation). on the other hand, a little more digging suggests that the overall meaning of nintai is closer to "putting up with something unpleasant", sort of like gaman.

I still think gambatte is the best choice in a martial arts context.

if you want to tell someone, "do your best!", this form is correct. if you want to speak in general about doing one's best, use the root form gambaru or its more polite variation gambarimasu. best of luck with your language adventure!

[Jeff Hamacher]

i forgot to mention a couple of entries that might be useful. nebari-zuyoi and konki-zuyoi both express a nuance of "stick-to-it-iveness" that would be very appropriate for martial arts training.

[Adam Young]

The original question asked for a good Japanese word for "perseverance" in a budo-context, i.e. a noun.

Ganbatte is a related-concept, and you will hear it in a budo-context, but it isn't a noun.

Konki ?ª‹C is a good noun - it means to try hard day in and day out, i.e. yoku ganbaru koto.

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by Adam Young
The original question asked for a good Japanese word for "perseverance" in a budo-context, i.e. a noun.
No, the original question was:

Originally posted by ulvulv
What is a good Japanese word for "perseverance" in a budo-context?
No mention of a noun there. The question was later amplified by ulvulv to be about a word for use in a dojo name, but by then a discussion of gambatte, nintai, etc. had already split off from it.

Also, since you brought it up, can only a noun can be used in a dojo name?

I know of a Teahouse called Shoseian, which means "Arbor of the murmuring pines." "Arbor" and "pines" are nouns, but "murmuring" isn't. Couldn't a similar name be used for a dojo (like "Dojo of the Four Winds," for example)?

[Steven Malanosk]

Hi,

Just wanted to share something about BuTokuDen.

While living in Okinawa in the real early 80s, I had to deal with the Naha PD for about 13 days.

At lunch time, I would get some yakisoba down the street, and come back to the Police Dpt. to eat as not to be late returning from lunch.

I would sit on these cement stairs that where in front of what looked like a tomb to me.

There was a statue "bust" at the top of the stairs that I sat on every day.

One day I had a strange feeling and looked over my shoulder at the bust that staired down at me every day at lunch.

Eurika! Duuuuh! It was Chojun Miyagi's likeness!

I had been sitting on the stairs of the BuTokuDen every day, eating yakisoba, and as a life long GoJu man, had no idea!

The bust has since been moved to JunDoKan, but I saw it at BuTokuDen first, and made sure to pick up any scraps of soba that I had been dropping and leaving behind until then........

The moral: BuTokuDen was where Miyagi Kensei and others of fame, taught the police dept. back in the day.

[Adam Young]

What is a good Japanese word for "perseverance" in a budo-context? I know the original question. And, yes you are right that there was no mention of a noun. I was sure that people did not need to be told that "perseverance" is a noun. Had the question been "What is a good Japanese word for "to perservere" in a budo-context?" then I assume people would respond in kind with a verb.

However, the point is moot as I lacked the foresight to actually read the entire thread.

And, just to pre-empt any huffiness you may feel, I am simply feeling particlarly argumentative as I have had to go into work for 29 of the past 30 days and have missed every practice at my dojo for a month as a result.

Generalized rancour and posting do not mix. ;)

Cheers.

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by Adam Young
...And, just to pre-empt any huffiness you may feel, I am simply feeling particlarly argumentative as I have had to go into work for 29 of the past 30 days and have missed every practice at my dojo for a month as a result...Fortunately, tomorrow is my last day of work before a week's vacation, so I'm feeling particularly "un-huffy" (I think I just created a word).

29 out of 30 days?! Holy cripes! Whose list did you get on, and what did you do to get on it?

Hope things get better soon.

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by Steven Malanosk
...One day I had a strange feeling and looked over my shoulder at the bust that staired down at me every day at lunch.

Eurika! Duuuuh! It was Chojun Miyagi's likeness!

I had been sitting on the stairs of the BuTokuDen every day, eating yakisoba, and as a life long GoJu man, had no idea!...
What a great story! What are the odds? You could have been a non-karateka or practiced a different style. You could have gone there a few years later, and the statue would have been gone. Pretty amazing, really.

[Steven Malanosk]

Amazing, but I swear to God it is true.

To be quite honest, the statue almost disappeared with me!

But some sort of GoJu ethical feeling talked me out of pilferring it.

Now keep in mind, that I say this in jest, but:

Can you imagine how much I could have sold it on ebay for.:eek:

[Jeff Hamacher]

Originally posted by Adam Young
The original question asked for a good Japanese word for "perseverance" in a budo-context, i.e. a noun.

my humble and sincere apologies, Young-sensei. may i respectfully alter my original suggestion to konki-zuyosa, perhaps?:D in fact, konki is probably the best match we've found all thread; nice work. and don't let the buchos grind ya down!

Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
I know of a Teahouse called Shoseian, which means "Arbor of the murmuring pines." "Arbor" and "pines" are nouns, but "murmuring" isn't. Couldn't a similar name be used for a dojo (like "Dojo of the Four Winds," for example)?

the trouble with such proper names is that they're more like Chinese in that each character could (depending upon the specific example) act as a noun or a verb. Japanese uses declinations to mark nouns and verbs, unlike Chinese. when translated, the issue gets even more blurred.

and, yes, there are some dojo that take names similar to the one you mentioned. my old aidiko dojo was called Jizaikan, where jizai roughly means "freedom (from impediment, restriction)" or "(the ability to act) at will". it can be kind of tricky concocting one that means something (sensible) and sounds good at the same time.