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JakobR
8th March 2004, 11:17
Hello,
This has probably been up before but I take my chance;

Q: When and why did the buke-class start wearing two swords and when where they ordered to do so?

Q: Did the Kuge-class also wear two swords and is it true that their swordhandles had to be made out ouf mother-of-pearl?

Q: Did women of the Kuge or Buke class ever wear two swords in public? Or just one sword for the matter...

Q: I am told that a buke normally left his long sword at the door when entering someones home. Is this true, and if so under which conditions did this occur?

I would be most grateful of any answer.

Karl Friday
11th March 2004, 19:17
Originally posted by JakobR
Q: When and why did the buke-class start wearing two swords and when where they ordered to do so?

Japanese warriors have carried two swords as battlefield armament since at least the middle Heian period (i.e. around the mid-10th century)?\in other words, pretty much since the inception of the samurai. The practice of wearing one or more swords as part of everyday dress became commonplace by the late Kamakura period (the 13th century). Wearing two swords became a requirement, and a badge of buke rank/status in the 17th century, under the Tokugawa regime. This was also the time at which the samurai became a legally-distinct class.


Q: Did the Kuge-class also wear two swords and is it true that their swordhandles had to be made out of mother-of-pearl?

Never as a matter of standard practice, although I?fm sure there must have been kuge (court nobles) who carried two swords now and then, as a matter of personal choice. Until at least the Kamakura period, ranking warriors were all court nobles?\albeit low- to middle-ranked ones. As to the pearl-handled sword hilts: I?fve never heard this before, and I?fve seen a pretty wide variety of materials used in the hilts of tachi and other kinds of swords worn by courtiers. So my guess would be ?gno.?h


Q: Did women of the Kuge or Buke class ever wear two swords in public? Or just one sword for the matter...

Women didn?ft wear long swords with civilian dress?\ever?\as far as I know. In the early medieval period there were, however, a few women who became famous as battlefield warriors. Presumably these women carried both long and short swords when they wore armor?\although I don?ft know anyway to confirm that hypothesis.


Q: I am told that a buke normally left his long sword at the door when entering someones home. Is this true, and if so under which conditions did this occur?

Yes, in the Tokugawa period, at least, normal etiquette called for leaving one?fs sword at the door when visiting. Usually this involved checking it with a servant?\sort of like the way maids or butlers collect hats and coats. But there were all sorts of exceptions to this practice. Sword etiquette was very complex and the rules and exceptions to them very intricate?\it doesn?ft summarize well!

JakobR
11th March 2004, 22:13
Thank you very much for your reply, Prof. Friday!

I have often wondered about the pracice of wearing two swords. If most warriors in ancient Japan carried two swords the practice probably does not originate as just a status marker. Nito fighting techniques does not seem be able to fully explain the practice. And the practice of leaving the longer sword outside can not have been of the same reason as the weapons where left in nartex in Northen Europe. The shorter sword was probably just as or maybe more effective indoors (now, can that have been a reason?).

The question about the sword customs of women comes from an interest in Tendo Ryu, and if the unusual sword practice we see in that school has anything to do with that it is mostly trained by women.

Mike Henry
11th March 2004, 23:37
Originally posted by Karl Friday
Yes, in the Tokugawa period, at least, normal etiquette called for leaving one?fs sword at the door when visiting. Usually this involved checking it with a servant?\sort of like the way maids or butlers collect hats and coats. But there were all sorts of exceptions to this practice. Sword etiquette was very complex and the rules and exceptions to them very intricate?\it doesn?ft summarize well!Thank you for the detailed reply.

However, we would like to know more about this particular topic. You see, we are having an ongoing discussion about Iai and Seiza, and under what circumstances, and by what kind of people, that Iai would be performed from Sieza using a Katana, such as being practised today. Where could we find more (authorative) information about (indoor) sword use and etiquette (preferably in English)?

Thank you in advance,

Eric Montes
11th March 2004, 23:48
Jakob,
Good to hear from you again.

Re Tendo Ryu

While it is my understanding that women have practiced Tendo Ryu for many generations, it was only in the beginning of the 20th Century that the overwhelming majority of practitioners were women.

The current soke's mother (Mitamura Chiyo) was the first woman to be named soke of Tendo ryu.

To my understanding, the techniques of Tendo Ryu were not designed for women.

Eric

Ben Bartlett
12th March 2004, 00:47
Originally posted by Mike Henry
Thank you for the detailed reply.

However, we would like to know more about this particular topic. You see, we are having an ongoing discussion about Iai and Seiza, and under what circumstances, and by what kind of people, that Iai would be performed from Sieza using a Katana, such as being practised today. Where could we find more (authorative) information about (indoor) sword use and etiquette (preferably in English)?

Thank you in advance,
If you do a search on this forum, you'll find plenty has already been said on this topic. The short of it is, a katana wouldn't have been used indoors from seiza. There are a variety of theories as to why seiza no bu were developed, but as I'm not an expert on the subject, I'll just leave it at that. You can search for the rest. ;)

renfield_kuroda
12th March 2004, 01:05
Originally posted by Mike Henry
Tou see, we are having an ongoing discussion about Iai and Seiza, and under what circumstances, and by what kind of people, that Iai would be performed from Sieza using a Katana, such as being practised today. Where could we find more (authorative) information about (indoor) sword use and etiquette (preferably in English)?

It is generally agreed that long-sword iai techniques from seiza are a (relatively) modern creation that have no explicit basis in battlefield technique.

Using my own style, Mugairyu Iaihyodo, as an example:
Founded in 1693, the original Mugairyu kenjutsu was derived from Yamaguchiryu kenjutsu. The Jikkyoryu iaijutsu was a 'modern' creation in the sense that it came about in the late 1600s, during the (relatively) peaceful times after the first Tokugawa-shogun united Japan in 1603.
Formalized by the 13th Soke (Nakagawa) in the late 1800s, the basic 20 Mugairyu kata consist of 10 sitting, 5 standing, and 5 running techniques. What is most notable is the parallel between the sitting and non-sitting techniques:
technique seiza non-seiza
opponent in front shin mae-no-teki
opponents front and back ren musogaeshi
opponent to the left sa mawarigakari
opponent to the right yu migi-no-teki
etc...

We are taught that the seiza techniques are a form of practicing the standing techniques. No samurai, and certainly not the founder of Mugairyu or any of his samurai practicioners, ever fought or duelled from seiza as a general rule (though there were exceptions, for example being jumped while taking a break at a tea house, etc.)
The practical applicability of drawing and cutting from seiza is a moot point; it was not done back when samurai used to kill each other with swords, except under specific and hopefully avoidable circumstances.

Regards,
r e n

Mike Henry
13th March 2004, 12:33
Thanks,

Reading my post again, I realised that I got what I asked for. But that wasn't really what I meant... :)

I was wondering about any references concerning sword etiquette on the entering of a house. Prof. Friday suggested that the rules regarding the handling of swords was complex and not easily summarizable. Not wanting to speculate, I wish to read up on this issue.

To clarify: under what circumstances (if any) would a Katana be worn indoors? Based on the statement that it was commonplace to leave one's sword at the door. I have a hard time believing that one needlessly would put one's hierlooms at risk by leaving it "on the coat-rack", so to speak. Of course, just as we today don't bring certain items into an airport, there must have been places where swords were checked in, as Prof. Friday indicates. However, beyond that, was it commonplace to leave one's sword(s) at the door on a more informal level?

There are many opinions about this, but is there any authoritive documentation on this issue?

And, yes, I agree there are many theories about the Seiza-no-bu, which not need be repeated here... :)

Again, thanks in advance!