View Full Version : Timing
johan_frendin
9th March 2004, 07:01
Gassho!
I have a couple of questions about timing?
What is timing?
How can we achieve good timing through Shorinjikempo practice?
Johan Frendin
cheunglo
9th March 2004, 07:31
Gassho Johan
My thoughts on timing has simplified over the years. Currently my definition on timing is: manufactured luck.:)
Kimpatsu
9th March 2004, 08:14
Originally posted by cheunglo
Gassho Johan
My thoughts on timing has simplified over the years. Currently my definition on timing is: manufactured luck.:)
Gassho.
Wouldn't "manufactured opportunity" be a better definition, Cheung?
Kesshu.
Tripitaka of AA
9th March 2004, 08:33
Tony and Cheung both managed it.
Can anyone else stay relative to the topic without mentioning Johan's favourite subject, randori.... D'oh! :( I said it!
johan_frendin
9th March 2004, 09:19
Gassho!
Great answers!
But how do you best achieve manufactured luck or manufactured opportunity?
I say that a predictable movement like kihon, jitsugi and embu gives you very little or no opportunity at all to understand timing. Only true timing can be achieved through unpredictable training.
Is it good timing to be able to perfectly catch your partners balance in Gyaku gote in jitsugi or embu?
Can you say that a high graded instructor have splendid timing showing a maki gote when he knows every action before it is initiated?
Johan Frendin
David Dunn
9th March 2004, 10:02
Originally posted by johan_frendin
What is timing?
Coinciding your jitsu with the opponent's kyo. Or manufactured opportunity :D
"The backbone of surprise is fusing speed with secrecy. " - Von Clausewitz (1780-1831)
Or my favourite:
"...hit your attacker, hard, where and when he least expects it, then repeat over and over again, until he decides that he desperately needs to be somebody else's atttacker..." JJ Mc Laughlin
Blackwood
9th March 2004, 13:41
Sometimes it amazes me just how deep a certain thing can go. My first week of training and the Nidan teaching class casually mentioned that we teach the most powerful move in the style in the first two counts of Kihon Kata One. (Note: The Nidan made Sandan a few months later and tests for Yodan in a few weeks. Edit-> It has been three years!)
I asked what I thought was a rather simple question a couple months ago. After almost four years of training, I asked where the fist was supposed to end up at the end of the first count, was it centerline or at the opponent’s shoulder. This precipitated a 15 minute conversation!
This is a long way around to getting to the point! Timing. The fist is supposed to end up at the shoulder, timed so that there is no ability for the opponent to pivot their hips and shoulders to land a powerful punch, You basically take all the force out with a counter punch, even though you are really sort of stiff arming them.
I find such discoveries rather delightful and it is one of the reasons I enjoy the martial arts!
Kimpatsu
9th March 2004, 14:04
Gassho, Mark.
Are you at Ann Arbor branch? (I'm playing detective here, given your address. ;) )
Kesshu.
David Dunn
9th March 2004, 14:14
Tony,
my investigations suggest that Mark isn't a shorinji kenshi. Unless his dojo has added 'kihon kata one' to the curriculum, and renamed the system "Shido Kan Shorin Ryu Karatedo."
:D :cool:
Kimpatsu
9th March 2004, 14:21
Originally posted by David Dunn
Tony,
my investigations suggest that Mark isn't a shorinji kenshi. Unless his dojo has added 'kihon kata one' to the curriculum, and renamed the system "Shido Kan Shorin Ryu Karatedo."
:D :cool:
Ah...
I don't know about anyone else, but I always feel aggrieved when non-Kenshi post in these forums. The question, although truncated, under discussion here isn't "What is your opinion on timing?", it's really, "what is your opinion on timing in the context of Shorinji Kempo?" For this saelf-same reason, I never post in the Aikido, Karate, or any other specialist forum, because I have nothing knowledgable to contribute. If Johann wanted to solict general opinions across a broader range of experience and opinion, he would have posted this question in the Members' Lounge.
Does anyone else feel this way, or am I just a grumpy of bastard?
Kesshu.
Blackwood
9th March 2004, 14:24
I probably should make sure and identify my style when posting to threads like this! Our Ann Arbor location consists of three Shodans that are UofM students (2 from our Southfield and one from NJ) and a kyu that just moved there. They meet about once a month and carpool to the hombu or practice in one of the dorm yards.
I study in Southfield and teach in Birmingham.
Kimpatsu - I study the martial arts and feel that I can learn from all the threads, and even contribute to a certain extent. I'll go away!
Kimpatsu
9th March 2004, 14:32
Originally posted by Blackwood
Kimpatsu - I study the martial arts and feel that I can learn from all the threads, and even contribute to a certain extent. I'll go away!
I'm not insisting that you go away; that's not up to me. I do think, however, that one cannot contribute to a thread without a thorough grasp of the art involved. This is why, as I said, I never post to any other specialist forums, such as Karate or Aikido. Remember: you are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to an informed opinion.
Best,
Originally posted by Blackwood
...I study in Southfield and teach in Birmingham...I study the martial arts and feel that I can learn from all the threads, and even contribute to a certain extent. I'll go away!
Dear Blackwood
Please stay/visit/post/browse
Feel free to contribute anytime, especially upon a subject as seminal as timing, endemic throughout all disciplines.
Anytime you're in England please visit.
I hope that one day we, and our daughters, can meet and train together.
Enjoy your training.
Work hard, play hard.
Ade
Tripitaka of AA
9th March 2004, 15:38
I welcome visitors with something to say.
Not every thread is appropriate, but then, the visitors can usually suss that out. This one seemed to be open to contributions from outside the world of Shorinji Kempo (particularly considering Johan's personal preferences for gaining outsiders opinions and sharing their knowledge)
Yes, Tony, you are a "Grumpy of bastard" - Does this sound like one of those stupid names from Lord of the Rings to you?
Anyhow.
The secret... of.... good.... comedy................ is...timing!
Gary Dolce
9th March 2004, 15:56
Just to clarify - no Mark is not a member of the Ann Arbor Branch of the World Shorinji Kempo Organization. And no we have not added "kihon kata one", nor have we renamed our system.
Mark - as far as I am concerned you are welcome to post here, but I suggest that you try to put your posts into a more general context. Referring to details in kata that aren't in our curriculum causes confusion - you could avoid that confusion by describing what you are talking about in more general terms. Without knowing anything about the first two counts of "Kihon Kata One", I don't really understand your comments on timing, but I might if you tried making them using more general terminology. You might also avoid the kind of confusion Tony K. has by adding the name of the martial art you practice to your signature. If you did that, we would all know instantly that you are providing the prospective of someone who practices a different martial art and respond accordingly.
Thanks,
Gary
Blackwood
9th March 2004, 16:00
Ouch! Un-informed? Interesting. I might perhaps accept mis-informed, but not un-informed. I find it interesting that you consider the differences between your style and others is so dramatic as to eliminate any correlation in the discussion.
Boy, do I envy your ability to read the language and to practice in Japan! I have opened another thread for the discussion so this can return to Timing (in Shorinji Kempo).
Edit -> Thanks, Gary! I'll edit the first post and try to get the context laid in.
Edit Again! > Ah, 15 minute edit limit!
Kihon Kata One. From ready, step out left. Left arm makes a sweep upward fairly straight, palm open in front of opponents left shoulder and small sweep across to their right shoulder, convert to fist. Second count is a right reverse punch, center. Usual interpretation for beginner is that you grab shoulder and pull into punch.
johan_frendin
9th March 2004, 16:51
Gassho!
The issue of timing seems to have been forgotten.
I took up the thread because I have been discussing the subject of timing with a coach in soccer. His opinion about timing is that to learn timing you need to let the kids play and have fun with he ball. In Brazil the average kid “play” a lot more than the Swedish kids do, at training sessions, at beaches, in he backyard etc. Due to this the Swedish adult soccer players lack tremendously in the area of timing and skill compared do the Brazilians.
This sometimes seems to be the case with Shorinjikempo kenshis compared to some sports oriented arts.
I there something to learn here?
Can we reach even further understanding of timing by having "play as a way"?
Johan Frendin
Kimpatsu
9th March 2004, 21:51
Originally posted by Tripitaka of AA
Yes, Tony, you are a "Grumpy of bastard" - Does this sound like one of those stupid names from Lord of the Rings to you?
My... precioussss.....
Kimpatsu
9th March 2004, 21:54
Originally posted by johan_frendin
Gassho!
The issue of timing seems to have been forgotten.
I took up the thread because I have been discussing the subject of timing with a coach in soccer.
Gassho.
If the question is that general, Johann, wouldn't this thread be better served by moving it to the Members' Lounge?
Kimpatsu
9th March 2004, 22:02
Originally posted by Blackwood
Ouch! Un-informed? Interesting. I might perhaps accept mis-informed, but not un-informed. I find it interesting that you consider the differences between your style and others is so dramatic as to eliminate any correlation in the discussion.
Boy, do I envy your ability to read the language and to practice in Japan! I have opened another thread for the discussion so this can return to Timing (in Shorinji Kempo).
If you're not a Shorinji Kenshi, how can you participate in conversations on waza, which you obviosuly do not know? Thus, as I said, I don't particpate in the Aikido or Karate forums for just this reason. Nor could I participate in a conversation between two doctors over a suitable course of medical treatment, or between two lawyers over a legal strategy. In another thread, Ade Sensei was talking about Bakuho Daiichi. What do you know of bakuho waza?
I'm not saying you shuld be banned from this forum; I'm saying that I don't see the point of participation, in the same way as I am unable to participate in the Koryu Budo forum, for the same reason.
As to the Japanese, there are Shorinji Kenshi who doesn't speak the language, either. Although all commands and technical terminology throughout the Shorinji Kempo world are in Japanese, the remainder of explanation, howa (gakka), chinkon, etc., are all performed in the local language.
Which means that in Ade Sensei's case, that language is gibberish... :D
David Dunn
10th March 2004, 09:12
Tony,
I thought this was a public forum?
Back to the topic. I'm not sure the football analogy holds so well Johan. In Brazil the kids do not participate in full size games on full size pitches with all the rules until much later. The small games they play help to foster good ball control and passing in tight spaces.
I think it is the case that professional football coaches have that training should be based on a lot of basic exercises. Hence passing practice, shooting practice, five-a-side short games. The 'real thing' is the match, and that isn't practiced much. I've heard the argument put very well that the reason English football was so behind continental football was precisely because the kids played matches as the sole activity, and more basic technique-oriented training was de-emphasised. Take a group of kids that show potential, split them into two groups, one of which plays only games, and the other which does a lot of basic technique training. After a month, the first group would probably win a match hands down. After a year the same. After several years the tables turn, and the basic training pays off. That's the theory anyway.
Kimpatsu
10th March 2004, 12:28
Originally posted by David Dunn
Tony,
I thought this was a public forum?
Which is why I'm not advocating Blackwood be banned, but that he should exercise the same self-restraint that I do in not posting to other specialised forums. Remember: you are NOT entitled to your opinion; you are entitled to an informed opinion.
johan_frendin
10th March 2004, 14:14
Gassho!
Take a group of kids that show potential, split them into two groups, one of which plays only games, and the other which does a lot of basic technique training. After a month, the first group would probably win a match hands down. After a year the same. After several years the tables turn, and the basic training pays off. That's
I understand your point David.
But do you not think that there must be a balance worth striving for between structure (basics, jitsugi, embu) and playing?
Johan Frendin
David Dunn
10th March 2004, 14:49
Yes Johan, I agree. Playing is essential. I'm just putting that randori isn't everything. In fact I think gentei randori, based on hokei is very useful, and improves randori in general.
I think that establishing good hokei and randori should proceed together, given that some kind of basic good form for hokei is established. The hokei contain the information, and the randori is application of the hokei.
What about juho randori? That's a difficult subject...
johan_frendin
10th March 2004, 15:52
Gassho!
We have almost the same opinion here, David.
The hokei contain the information, and the randori is application of the hokei.
Exactly!
Shorinjikempo has rules (hokei) in the same way as chess. But I think it is hard to learn to play chess well by constantly telling your opponent how you going to move the chess pieces.
What is good balance between structure and playing in a regular training session?
My opinion is:
Structure (kihon, jitsugi) 75 %
Playing (onyo-ho, randori) 25 %
When it comes to juho randori you can do the same way I think. You can play with two techniques but of course it is better if you have some more techniques. The critical thing is not the amount of techniques but that you have a cooperative training partner. If not you are competing and that kills playing.
Johan Frendin
sean dixie
10th March 2004, 22:02
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
In another thread, Ade Sensei was talking about Bakuho Daiichi. What do you know of bakuho waza?(Heavily edited)
Can't seem to find the thread but have been wondering receintly if there is a Bakuho Daini/san?
David Dunn
11th March 2004, 00:24
Hi Sean,
I've never heard of any other bakuho waza, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. The thread that it was mentioned in was the Birmingham Kenshi one.
Ade
11th March 2004, 06:01
I asked Sensei Arai about bakuho, he didn't answer yes or no as to whether there were more after dai ichi, but his opinion was that they were out of place and time and belonged in special magazines!
Anders Pettersson
11th March 2004, 07:10
We are getting off topic here, let’s try and get back on the initial question.
As for Bakuho, I have been taught dai ichi (which is in the kamokuhyo) and a Bakuho dai ni (which is not in the kamokuhyo and I haven't found it in the kyouhan).
/Anders
tony leith
11th March 2004, 13:13
This is actually a vital topic. Timing is absolutely critical to the successful application of Shorinji Kempo techniques. Kyo and jitsu are probably the hardest elements of atemi to teach, in no small measure because the individual has to learn it for themselves to some extent. It's relatively easy to convey aim, distance, angle and speed - and I think fairly easy to grasp intuitively. Optimal timing changes according to the circumstances the attacker presents you with, and also acording to your inital condition (weight distribution, stance, preparedness etc).
I would agree with Johan that in the end it's your unmediated responses that determine whether you can respond effectively to anb attack. The question is how you programme in the appropriate responses. Sotai training on specific waza teaches timing. The syllabus presents a structured progression, and builds up a spectrum of responses to possible attacks. While randori training is important, I actually suspect that a reflexive sorimi developed doing hundreds of repetitions of techniques like uwa uke geri might actually be more valuable in self defence than unstructured randori practice (note the italics).
As to the balance between predetermined routines and 'play', I supect that it depends very largely on the experience of the kenshi concerned. Very senior kenshi can improvise embu with near perfect timing. For most of us, achieving good timing in embu is the result of long practice. I'm not saying that kyu kenshi should be denied the opportunity for playful practice, not at all, but I think the usual provisos about building solid foundations through sound kihon and waza practice apply.
Tony leith
johan_frendin
11th March 2004, 16:07
Gassho Tony!
I actually suspect that a reflexive sorimi developed doing hundreds of repetitions of techniques like uwa uke geri might actually be more valuable in self-defence than unstructured randori practice.
This is, in my opinion, totally false and very wrong. I know that hundreds of martial artist out there believe that if you repeat the same movement over and over again you will get intuitive reflexes with good timing. Repeating the same movement over and over again will make you understand the forms (rules) of Shorinjikempo but give you very little in the area of timing.
Why?
Timing and intuition can only exist in an unpredictable environment. Imagine two persons training to become proficient in playing chess. They know a lot of ways to move their chess pieces just like a 1-2 dan Shorinjikempo kenshi knows a lot of ways to move there bodies.
Player 1 start to move one of his pawns 2 steps forward.
Player 2 then move one of his pawns 2 steps forward.
After this they start from the beginning again. They repeat this technique over and over again approximately 500 times. How much understanding of chess do they get training by this method?
99% of all Shorinjikempo clubs try to understand timing and intuition by following this training method.
How can you understand the unpredictable by constantly holding on to the predictable?
Johan Frendin
David Dunn
11th March 2004, 17:32
Originally posted by johan_frendin
99% of all Shorinjikempo clubs try to understand timing and intuition by following this training method.
Johan, that's a high proportion you claim. It isn't my experience. Training in Mizuno Sensei's is not like that; gentei randori every time. In my dojo I get first timers trying to do uchi uke zuki or ryusui geri against a random attack.
Gary Dolce
11th March 2004, 20:34
99% of all Shorinjikempo clubs try to understand timing and intuition by following this training method.
Gassho Johan,
I enjoy your descriptions of practice methods and I think I agree with a lot of what you are saying, until you make statements like this. How can you know what 99% of Shorinji Kempo clubs do? I don't think I know any club that does not spend some time on randori or application or playing or whatever you want to call it.
I think there are as many ways to teach Shorinji Kempo as there are Shorinji Kempo teachers. Some may choose to spend a lot more time than others on application, but I have yet to meet one who spends no time on it. As a result of differences in teaching approaches, students in one Branch may learn some skills more quickly than students in another Branch (and vice versa). Perhaps the students who spend less time on randori are learning skills other than timing at a faster rate than those spending more time on it. Some teachers may choose to spend 50% of their time on application while others may choose to spend 10%. What difference does this make as long as we are all practicing Shorinji Kempo?
Gary
johan_frendin
12th March 2004, 07:34
Gassho!
I apologise for my rude statement. I greatly exaggerated and I am sorry for that. I know that many Shorinjikempo clubs teach randori but still many avoid it.
The reason I started this thread was because I believe there is so much misconception among kenshis and teachers about how to learn timing in Shorinjikempo.
Timing I thought to be learnt only from doing kihon , hookei and embu and I believe it is a misunderstanding of training. Kihon, hookei and embu are to learn the beautiful patterns of the art of Shorinjikempo. Randori and application is the method of revealing, uncover and break these patterns. When you learn to uncover and break these patterns timing and intuition arise naturally.
Can timing and intuition be achieved in another way?
Johan Frendin
cheunglo
12th March 2004, 08:10
Originally posted by johan_frendin
Can timing and intuition be achieved in another way?
Gassho Johan
I have amended my definition of timing in the light of the current discussion. It is now "the exploitation of manufactured luck". In order to practice timing, according to to this defintion, you need to practice manufacturing luck and you need to practice exploiting that luck.
I agree with you that the former can only be done in an unpredictable environment. However, the opportunities that arise exist only fleetingly - you need to have the physical reflexes to exploit those opportunities in the time that is available. This latter component is achieved through hundreds of repetitions.
tony leith
12th March 2004, 11:31
Gassho Johan
You have a tendency to set up what is called in English 'straw men' in argument i.e. to state a position which if your opposite number were actually putting would be indefensible. More often than not, it isn't a fair representation of their argument. This may have arisen from an amibiguity in the word 'timing'. Basically I agree with Cheung, but am now going take a few hundred words of your time to try and make clear why..
What I meant in saying that the kind of muscle memory you get from repetitive kihon practice is basic to self defence is that our natural reflexes are not always optimal. You have to train in the correct reactions. If you watch third kyu kenhi trying to learn juji uke geri, you will see a variety of reactions to the incoming mawashigeri. One natural response seems to be to shrink away from the kick. Now, of course, it is possible to evade a mawashigeri using ashi sabaki, but not by retreating in the path of the kick. Juji uke in this context requires that you intercept the kick before the attackers weight is fully committed to it, and before it is moving at maximum speed.
This requires standing your ground. This is also critical to the timing of an effective counter attack - the keri kaeshi has to be delivered simultaneously with the uke, and pretty much at the same time as the attacker's kick, certainly before the attacker has had a chance to withdraw the kick to a defensible condition. Most people have to be given the opportunity to learn this. It may not be true of people who have a natural genius for fighting, but that will necessarily be a (very) small proportion of those training in Shorinji Kempo. Grasping the principles of timing an effective response to attacks has to be learnt before it can be applied in randori, though to be sure I think randori practice should be present from the outset.
Needless to say, once somebody has grasped this basic idea, it is then helpful to get them to experiment with various defences against similar atacks in a randori like way. Hopefully once this kind of practice has been gone through enough, the same kind of principles will be applied spontaeously in randori, and then the kind of timing (I think) you're talking about comes into its own i.e the strategy of attack and defence. It still rests on the foundation of hokei practice, though.
Randori is an esential element of training, but there is also necessarily an element of artificiality as well as spontaneity about it. Most self defence situations will probably not be initiated by an attacker obligingly putting their dukes up to signify their intent to fight. Hopefully most actual self defence conditions would actually follow the pattern more of successful application of hokei than normal randori practice (esentially attack-counter-renhanko/leave at speed). That's certainly been true of my very limited experience. I don't want to be in a fight - it's all too possible I would lose a fight. If possible I want a self defence situation to be over immediately it starts, and to be off and running ASAP.
Tony leith
jonboy
12th March 2004, 12:40
What he said.
I don't understand why there is such a discrepancy here. You develop better timing within the limits of the hokei because you know what's coming. You learn how to move more efficiently. You learn to program new reflexes. Tony's example of juji uke geri is a superb one. Do hokei enough times and you begin to sense that you have more time during the attack because you get used to the movements. Was it Dave (Dunn) who said good footballers appear to have more time on the ball. They have the same amount of time as anyone else, but use it better.
When you do hokei enough times, they become more of a reflex and the extra time created lets you eventually learn how to read the attacks. The attacks in randori will be the same attacks unless you are no longer wishing to practice Shorinji Kempo (ie the point of uke is not only to provide an attack for the defender, but also to practice the attack itself).
Thus the hokei teaches the timing, which can then be put into practice during randori. Randori has it's place, but it is not divorced from hokei.
Or have I missed the point?
tony leith
12th March 2004, 13:23
Thus the hokei teaches the timing, which can then be put into practice during randori. Randori has it's place, but it is not divorced from hokei.
Admirably and succinctly put (memo to self..)
Or have I missed the point?
I don't think so, Jon - I think the whole point of Shorinji Kempo as a means of self defence, the whole premise on which it rests, is that the appropriate responses can be learned in a structured way irrespective of the native talent of the student. This is not to deny that talent matters, but the point is that you don't have to have a great innate intuitive grasp of these matters to progress or to gain some real ability to deal with potential threats. We are not in the business of training tournament fighting champions - the kind of people that can do that are by definition unusual (Senseis Arai, Aosaka, and Mizuno Sensei -who did participate in such tournaments - I suspect were always at the upper end of the ability range for their level of experience).
I think this also matters at a philosophical level. We discussed intuition in another context in this forum. In the context of Shorinji Kempo, I think this is pretty clearly a faculty which can be cultivated and developed. Randori is certainly vital to developing this faculty, and although I'm not an advocate of cross training as such I have profited from sparring exercises with people from different styles. Still, for my part I am sure that my ability to derive benefit from such exercise ultimately depends on the foundation I've established through good hokei practice. This frankly depends as much on my training partners as on my own efforts - attacks must be genuinely intended to hit, not 'pulled'. This is something I'm absolutely insistent on with my own students.
Effective defence I think ultimately depends on creating an element of surprise. This generally means successfully reading the nature of an attacker's intent, and frustrating it (NB this will not usually mean confronting it directly, force on force). I'm finding in my own execution of techniques that basic zuki/keri waza seem to be having more effect, and yet I'm not conscious of applying any more force. I think (maybe I flatter myself) what's going on is that my timing at the basic tactical level is getting better, and that essentially I'm using the attacker's incident force to get more 'oomph' out of my atemi.
The surprise in both goho and juho waza is typically achieved by removing the focus of the attack. In goho the effectiveness of a counter is greatly increased by being delivered at the precise instant the attacker is most concentrated on delivering their strike. I think all goho hokei practice is working towards achieving this end, and to some extent working on specific defences against specific attacks allows us to isolate this element of timing. Naturally being able to do this in randori against spontaneous attacks is much more impressive, but I think this critical element for most people can only be acquired/refined intially in hokei practice.
Tony leith
Kimpatsu
12th March 2004, 13:56
Originally posted by tony leith
Gassho Johan
You have a tendency to set up what is called in English 'straw men' in argument i.e. to state a position which if your opposite number were actually putting would be indefensible. More often than not, it isn't a fair representation of their argument.
Careful, Tony; last time I pointed this out, one of Johan's confederates, Alex Tilly, resolved to beat me to death, which threat is still active.
Kesshu.
David Dunn
12th March 2004, 14:29
Here is what Kaiso had to say on the balance between randori and hokei, and how to get true strength.
Well, I'm going off track here, so let's get back to the analysis compiled by he students, carrying on from last time. The subject is, "Training details and methods: how they should be". As a result of examinations from various angles, we have arrived at the conclusion that "Universities that train with their main focus on randori whilst wearing protective gear do not know how to, or cannot, train in true hokei". It's not me saying this; it's the result of a survey conducted by the students themselves. This is the result after surveying the universities. I just want to say this, based on other data: in 1923, the Okinawan Funakoshi Gichin came to Tokyo, as there was a karate forum at Tokyo University. This forum was founded by members of the university Judo and Sumo clubs, who had become bored with Judo and Sumo, and who, upon seeing a boxing match, had felt that Judo lacked something. They wanted to try something different, and so had started by deciding to try karate. This is how the Tokyo University Karate Forum started in 1923, centred on Judo and Sumo players. I was still very young at the time.
As Dan Grades, Don't Do Anything Foolish
========================================
However, the forum broke up after less than two and a half years. This was because karate in those days had few punching and kicking techniques, and was practiced stiffly, and solo. For this reason, they felt that it was uninteresting, and resolved to visit Okinawa for a summer camp. However, even the so-called sensei in Okinawa only knew two or three kata, and they also found this to be boring. So, as this was no use in fighting, they created kote waza and other grappling movements with the intention of creating a Tokyo University style of karate, and they started wearing face guards. However, it didn't hurt therefore if they were kicked or punched, because they were wearing metal wrapped around them. Thus, the strongest competitors were those who had done Judo or Sumo in the past. Using their body weight and the protection of the armour, they would attack with all their might, not by punching, but by knocking their opponent flying with body blocks. So the group disbanded after a year and a half. Physically strong people will always be strong. This history lesson dates from the 1920s. This is the problematic end result of randori. So far, two students have died during taikai, owing to randori. There is also someone who died during training. ... Naturally, I want to adopt the best methods be it with randori, without randori, or somewhere in between. Although no such technique exists, if there was an instant (fragment missing) that was useful in any sort of fight... this concept garnered the greatest percentage of responses to the survey. Among the students, there are evidently people who mistakenly think randori to be a type of immediate practical combat application as a symbol of physical strength, but it is nothing of the sort.
[abridged]
It is a mistake to think, "Let's teach making attacks more and more difficult, so that people can perform ryusui geri no matter what the attack. This is meaningful for the gradual learning of techniques, people learn hokei this way, and by repeated practice their body learns, so in the end they become able to counter reflexively. Also, by including free randori in that learning curve, the student will learn the meaning of not fleeting, but true, self-confidence. At any rate, it is common for the students to think that actual combat practice is useful, with randori as a symbol of physical strength. This results in a vicious circle - to become self-confident through victory, that taikai exist as a barometer of your own strength, and that self-confidence is linked to the results of the taikai and causes the current situation in which the relative importance is not judged properly. To excise this vicious circle, we must first revolutionise the taikai. Amidst the daily training for each taikai, first instruct people thoroughly in hokei. Have them practice randori within the scope of the hokei suited to their level. Once they are able to perform uwauke zuki and soto oshiuke zuki, combine that into the randori, or for ryusui geri, mix in various kinds of jodan attack, or have them learn counters to various attacks. This way, they will also garner a sense of enjoyment.
This sums it up:
first instruct people thoroughly in hokei. Have them practice randori within the scope of the hokei suited to their level.
iaferguson
12th March 2004, 15:49
Hi Johan,
Great question and some interesting debates on how to practice timing, but in essence you need to be more specific in your question of how to practice timing. If you are talking in the context of Shorinji Kempo and (in the dojo) then I agree with most of the responses on Hokei as a core principle and randori a process through which you can learn timing. But if you're talking for the purpose, purely of self-defense then be very careful...
It may be useful to think not in terms of timing (which suggests a calculated or reflex response to a premeditated action or the assumption of a premeditated action) but on the psychology of the both attacker and defender in different situations.
In the dojo, with two people of the same style you can leverage acute levels of similarity in the way that people move as they have both been exposed to like movements repetitively practiced, thus you can can exploit opportunities for defence and hence practice timing. A large majority of these movements are translatable to the kind of attacks somebody of a different style or an attacker outside of the dojo may deliver. But psychologically there are major difference.
If you wish to talk about timing you must contexturalise it in this sense as timing for controlled randori or the ability to better understand and/or teach Shorinji Kempo techniques.
Outside of the dojo... let's be real for a moment - IT CANNOT BE PRACTICED!
People do not attack with a front hand punch to the head and a rear arm strike to the body (eg. Tsuki Ten Ichi) because they see weakness or opportunity (only Shorinji Kempo kenshi pretend to do this), and you would not defend on this basis either.
Attackers attack with suprise, often wildly and blindly out of the desire to cause harm, being generally derranged/rage/drunkeness and/or to obtain something from you. If you want to practice timing in this context, spill beer over everybody you meet in a bar for the next 6 weeks and see at what point they try and rip your throat out. The correct time to perform your chosen defensive manouver will be the split second before you feel the warmth of their hand make contact with the skin around your neck!
So my question to you is, why do you believe timing to be important. Is this question formed out of a desire to perfect your level of understand of shorinji kempo techniques or is it for street defense. As someone who has been practicing martial arts since they were 5 years old I can assure you they are two VERY different things!
[IMPORTANT] I say this not in anyway to detract from the devistatingly effective techniques of shorinji kempo or our study methods, but merely as a reminder to us all that different environments require different responses according to our phsychological state.
So my friend, practice long and hard for each eventuality (...just don't spill the beer on me!!!!)
Ian Ferguson
3rd Dan
Shorinji Kempo
Bournemouth Dojo
David Dunn
12th March 2004, 16:20
Hi Ian,
welcome to e-budo, unless you've been lurking in the background. Getting into loads of fights is definitely the quickest way to get good at fighting, assuming you don't get killed.
johan_frendin
12th March 2004, 17:01
Gassho!
I have got some really intelligent and thoughtful answers here and the discussion is really great!
Great question and some interesting debates on how to practice timing, but in essence you need to be more specific in your question of how to practice timing.
I am talking in the context of learning and understanding Shorinji Kempo (in the dojo).
As students in other physical activities like tennis, hockey, soccer, boxing etc I want to play and have fun with my skills and try to perform them in an unpredictable environment. I want do become proficient in all shorinjikempo areas like kihon, jitsugi, embu AND randori. I even think that Misuno sensei, Arai sensei, Aosaka sensei incredible skills in TIMING have its foundation in randori and application experience. If we avoid randori and application we can never, ever become as proficient as them. And in about 30 years Shorinjikempo in the west will be just a form of demonstration, the style of seeking an audience attention with a myriad of complex movements that dazzle the eye and makes for great theatrics. Shorinjikempo is supposed to be a living, moving, and developing martial art and philosophy based on real applications founded by Kaiso. If we want to understand Kaisos techniques we need to do application in large amounts.
"To understand the visible you need to experience the invisible."
Johan Frendin
Kimpatsu
12th March 2004, 23:38
Gassho, Johan.
I don't think anyone's talking of avoiding Randori, it's a question of the best way to learn it. This is why Mizuno Sensei prefers to use gentei randori as an introduction to timing. Can you think of any better exercises to introduce the concept?
Kesshu.
johan_frendin
13th March 2004, 08:10
Gassho!
Gentei randori can be useful depending on what you practice.
I have read the article about randori by David Dunn at BSKF website and is a little surprised by its content. David declares that randori should be interpreted as bringing a chaotic situation under control. He then concludes the article suggesting some exercises that is (almost all of them) totally predictable and thus will generate very little in the area of timing.
Instead, some of these exercises will not benefit the kenshi but instead be counterproductive of making him/her learn randori and good timing. The kenshis will now start to THINK about his/her position should be zenkutsu dachi or kokutsu dachi, which hookei to use, stand in tai or hiraki gamae, use the ura or omote form and because of this he/she will be stiff, robotic and totally predictable.
Randori is not about thinking it is about DOING.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to learn timing, intuition and randori by thinking. Some of these exercises are perfect examples of the misunderstanding of unpredictable practice I mentioned earlier in the thread.
Johan Frendin
Kimpatsu
13th March 2004, 09:02
Originally posted by johan_frendin
I have read the article about randori by David Dunn at BSKF website and is a little surprised by its content. David declares that randori should be interpreted as bringing a chaotic situation under control.
That what "randori" means, Johan: "Controlling the chaos".
johan_frendin
13th March 2004, 09:30
Gassho!
But the exercises explained are almost all predictable?
Johan Frendin
David Dunn
13th March 2004, 10:04
I even think that Misuno sensei, Arai sensei, Aosaka sensei incredible skills in TIMING have its foundation in randori and application experience.
Instead, some of these exercises will not benefit the kenshi but instead be counterproductive of making him/her learn randori and good timing. The kenshis will now start to THINK about his/her position should be zenkutsu dachi or kokutsu dachi, which hookei to use, stand in tai or hiraki gamae, use the ura or omote form and because of this he/she will be stiff, robotic and totally predictable.
Randori is not about thinking it is about DOING.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to learn timing, intuition and randori by thinking. Some of these exercises are perfect examples of the misunderstanding of unpredictable practice I mentioned earlier in the thread.
Johan,
I guess I'm a perfect example of the 99% of Shorinji Kempo that is crap then.
However, these exercises are not mine. They're Mizuno Sensei's and are typical of his daily training. As you say he has expert timing and intuition, which he has developed through [i]this kind of training. The point about gentei randori is that you introduce a limited about of randomness, so that you can learn to judge and react appropriately. I'm pretty sure that I don't say anywhere that you should only every train like this. The article was supposed to be a discussion of how to keep hokei and randori in touch with each other.
I'm very confused about your objection to kenshi thinking about what they're doing. I thought that was the point? Thinking or doing? Well, shinshin ichinyo means that we should aim for them to be one and the same thing. The mind that is untroubled by thought isn't supposed to be the red-mist and ill-considered action. It's supposed to be one that reacts appropriately to a 'live' situation. Making a limited situation where you have to judge and act accordingly is the first step, and also a very useful ongoing exercise.
Your assertion that the exercises are of no benefit and counterproductive is extraordinary and demonstrably incorrect. When I started trying to pick jun or gyaku zuki and make uchi uke zuki in response I was awful, all over the shop. Even if I picked it correctly, the counter was more than likely to be badly timed, or weak. Now I get 99%, with tai no sen. In what way has that detracted from my uchi uke zuki or my randori?
johan_frendin
13th March 2004, 10:53
Gassho David!
Aosaka sensei, Arai sensei, Misuno sensei incredible skills in timing do not come from this kind of practice. I know it and you know it. Both Aosaka sensei and Misuno sensei spend hours after hours in free randori training when they were young. Aosaka told us (People of the Swedish fedaration) that free randori was the only thing they practiced during long periods of time at universityclubs during that time. This gave him his incredible skill in timing, nothing else.
The point about gentei randori is that you introduce a limited about of randomness, so that you can learn to judge and react appropriately.
This is not wrong to train at low kyu kenshi level but at san dan level it has little or no value at all.
When I started trying to pick jun or gyaku zuki and make uchi uke zuki in response I was awful, all over the shop. Even if I picked it correctly, the counter was more than likely to be badly timed, or weak. Now I get 99%, with tai no sen.
That’s great! Now put on your protective gear, grap your training partner, and do free randori and try if you can get 99%, with tai no sen.
Johan Frendin
Kimpatsu
13th March 2004, 11:27
Gassho.
Johan, Mizuno Sensei spells his name with a "z", not "s".
Kesshu.
David Dunn
13th March 2004, 14:13
Aosaka sensei, Arai sensei, Misuno sensei incredible skills in timing do not come from this kind of practice.
Johan,
I can't speak for Aosaka Sensei or Arai Sensei. I have however spent hour after hour in Mizuno Sensei's dojo. Are you going to tell me that the methods that he uses to teach randori and hokei are not the methods he would advocate to reach his own standard? To repeat: who said that we shouldn't practice free randori? If the only way to get good timing was hour after hour of free randori, why doesn't Sensei teach that way?
This is not wrong to train at low kyu kenshi level but at san dan level it has little or no value at all.
Practicing uchi uke zuki and ryusui geri have no value for sandan? I'm sorry, but what a silly statement.
That’s great! Now put on your protective gear, grap your training partner, and do free randori and try if you can get 99%, with tai no sen.
It's a different exercise as you well know. Convince me that there is no value in facing your partner and asking for random migi or hidari zuki or keri, and trying to apply a suitable hokei against them, even at sandan level.
Sometimes I find it hard to fathom your ideas Johan. You say on the one hand that 75% of training should be hokei, and then you slam the merest mention of extended hokei/gentei randori.
johan_frendin
13th March 2004, 16:00
Gassho David!
Convince me that there is no value in facing your partner and asking for random migi or hidari zuki or keri, and trying to apply a suitable hokei against them, even at sandan level.
The difference between you and me is that you want a “bridge” between hookei and randori. That’s fine.
But is it possible to go from hookei to randori with no or very, very few bridges in between. Yes, I believe that.
To learn how to swim you need to jump in to the water and feel the temperature of the water and feel there are unpredictable waves pounding on you. Then true timing can be achieved.
Johan Frendin
shugyosha
13th March 2004, 18:38
i had the same sort of conversation with sensei once,
i couldnt understand why sparing was usless however timing was essential, and why randori was so important.
after month of daily training i understand he meant that randori means
"free exercise" free your mind, in any motion, be it hokei.
in hokei there is timing, repetitive and predictive timing.
in sparing there is timing, unpredictive and broken rythm
however the use of gloves moves away one from the art toward sport, same as protective gears, you dont feel blows anymore.
Musashi NEVER practice sparing, however he was a master of all the timing, because he understood the timing in everything.
to practice broken rythm and unpredictive timing its better to start from hokei and change technics freely without warning, with real contact, without protection, at reasonable power.
if you practice sparing, you will be good at sparing under the rules of sparing, the heijoshin wont be there, mind wont be free.
sparing help for the begining, but it develop weakness wich would be leathal in a real agression, but if you only do hokei, you become a robot
so both of you can inspire from each other
tony leith
15th March 2004, 14:01
Gassho Johan (and everybody else who might be interested enough to read this)
I do find your posts stimulating, but again I think you're missing the point that the 'other side' in this debate is trying to get across (I pretty much agree with Dave Dunn's main argument)
Randori is not about thinking it is about DOING.
I don't think anybody could reasonably object to this. The value of randori training in diagnostic terms is finding out what your immediate responses to spontaneous attacking patterns are. The Zen 'no mind' idea is critical, as it would be in self defence. However, and this is a big 'however', as I've argued above randori itself is also necessarily artificial. The idea that it is uniquely valuable interms of preparing for self defence is misguided - unfortunately as Iain said above almost by definition there isn't a way of simulating potentially life threatening self defence scenarios in the dojo. Your life is either at risk or it isn't.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to learn timing, intuition and randori by thinking
I think this is nonsensical. It's essentially saying that randori training is something completely apart from the rest of Shorinji Kempo training, and by implication, that hokei practice is useless for self defence. 'Intuition' to me denotes a package of abilities which can be improved through practice, and learning will involve conscious thought and retention of what's been learned. Eventually once these patterns of movement become so ingrained that they're performed unconsciously, 'thinking' will not be required. Where thinking will be of limited utility is in ultimate application, but saying it's useless in learning is like proposing to build a house from the roof down.
Before taking up Shorinji Kempo, I practised karate (not to any advanced level, I hasten to emphasise). At least in my dojo, we did jump straight from form work into free kumite practice. I found this unprofitable to put it mildly. Getting pummelled round the hall without having the first idea of what to do about it was not my idea of fun. The structured premise of Shorinji Kempo training by contrast appealed greatly, my experience is that hokei training has greatly improved my abilities in randori, including timing.
Aosaka sensei, Arai sensei, Misuno sensei incredible skills in timing do not come from this kind of practice. I know it and you know it. Both Aosaka sensei and Misuno sensei spend hours after hours in free randori training when they were young.
And by that token I would agree with Dave that Mizuno Sensei would be unlikely in the extreme to suggest forms of training for his students which would not develop their abilities in self defence. Rest assured Johan, on the basis of the howa talk he gave at the last BSKF black belt course, Mizuno Sensei is very determined that Shorinji Kempo as teaches it will not become a form of dance.
Still, I have found this discussion stimulating, so thanks for that.
Tony leith
johan_frendin
16th March 2004, 07:31
Gassho!
Shorinjikempo in its active expression are physical. Unless you are talking extra-terrestrials, randori on earth requires practice of unpredictable movement.
But we seems to have different ideas of how this can be achieved.
That`s fine with me. It has been an interesting dicussion, anyway.
Johan Frendin
Martin S
5th April 2004, 12:39
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
If you're not a Shorinji Kenshi, how can you participate in conversations on waza, which you obviosuly do not know?
I think this is a very narrow-minded statement. Timing is something that extends to all martial arts, and it is ridiculous to claim that Shorinjikempo training differs so much from other martial arts that a karateka's opinion could be of no value. IMO, someone like Roy Jones Jr. or Jomhod Kiatadisak probably has a far deeper understanding of certain elements of timing that exist in SK than kenshis who have been training for a decade or more.
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