Shôrin, Shôrin or Shôrin?

[Shikiyanaka]

Hi folks,

I've been thinking about the Shôrin and Shorei thing. And also about the different Shôrin branches (although I am not a Shôrin ryû practitioner, but also Karate :) ).

Nagamine in his book explained that - to make clear which kind of Shôrin is meant - in his style the alternative reading "Matsubayashi" is used. Thus, to make exactly clear what is meant, one says Matsubayashi Shôrin ryû.

Here's what I have. Please take a close look and I would appreciate if you note any error or missing or redundant point. There are maybe some things which need to be discussed. Thanks.

Shōrin Ryū 少林流
Shōrin Ryū 少林流 describes the styles of Shuri Te 首里手 and Tomari Te 泊手. Shōrin 少林 here means „Shaolin“ and points to the influence of the northern Chinese Shaolin Temple. Literally this Shōrin 少林 means „a little bit of forest.“ (Note: a Ryûkyû Shinpô article from 1917 writes this Shorin different, but I haven't got my language tools here to show how)

Shōrei Ryū 昭霊流
Shōrei Ryū 昭霊流 ususally describes Naha-te 那覇手, the later Gōjū Ryū 剛柔流. The development of this stream was influenced by the southern Chinese styles. Shōrei 昭霊 means as much as „clear mind.“ If this term sometimes contained a different association – especially regarding the southern Chinese styles – , is not known. Because of the association of Shōrei Ryū 昭霊流 to its southern Chinese styles origin this stream may possibly be used for Uechi Ryū 上地流 and Ryūei Ryū 劉衛流, but I am not sure.

--Matsubayashi Ryū, Kobayashi Ryū and Shōbayashi Ryū
Shōrin is not always Shōrin, as the styles of Matsubayashi Ryū, Kobayashi Ryū and Shōbayashi Ryū show:

Matsubayashi Ryū. 松林流. Matsubayashi also can be read „Shōrin“. It means „pine forest.“

Kobayashi Ryū / Shōbayashi Ryū 小林流. These two also can be pronounced „Shōrin“. Ko and Shō are two possibilities for reading the Kanji 小. From their origin both styles seems to be somewhat close, if not identical. It is only a different reading of the same Kanji. Kobayashi / Shōbayashi 小林 means „little forest.“

Shōrin-ji Ryū 少林寺流 was found in 1954 by Nakazato. Shōrin-ji 少林寺 means „Shaolin temple.“

Sukunai Hayashi Ryū 少林流 again is an alternative reading of the same Kanji as in „Shōrin Ryū,“ with „Shōrin“ again in the meaning of „Shaolin.“ The reading of the Kanji 少 as Shō means „less, a little“, whereas Sukunai means „less, little, rare“.

Thus, one seems to have to differ between:

Shōrin Ryū 少林流 as a classification of the styles developed in Shuri and Tomari.

The styles which today carry the Kanji Shōrin 少林 (Shaolin) in their name, meaning Shōrin-ji Ryū 少林寺流 and Sukunai Hayashi Ryū 少林流.

Shōrin Ryū which is an alternativ reading of the Kanji for Matsubayashi Ryū 松林流 and Kobayashi Ryū / Shōbayashi Ryū 小林流.


What do you think?

[Blackwood]

Wow! I don't read Japanese, but that is a pretty good layout of the kanji and relationships. Most of what I know is based on Mark Bishop's book. I've combined a couple of sources and tried to come up with something similar, without the entymology!

History of Shorin Ryu (http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/17278/98594)

[Shikiyanaka]

(Sorry, unintentionally posted an answer as a new thread :look:)

Without wanting to move the thread to a different topic;

I have read your article sometime before, and of course, it is very good.

Although there are many good articles out there. In many of them, wether written by pro's or hobbyists, it is only the details which mostly cause little "problems." I know this problem well from myself and - carefully read - one can find some little things remaining unclear in nearly every article.

For example:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It has been said that Nagamine developed this style himself. He named the style after Bushi Matsumura (1797-1889).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Matsubayashi-ryu. Founded in 1947 by Nagamine Shôshin, is Tomari-te as well as Shuri-te based and the Kata were not made up by Nagamine himself (besides Fukyu-kata ichi and partly Fukyu-kata ni).

From Chotoku Kyan (1870-1945) he learned the Shuri-te kata from the Sakugawa-Matsumura lineage.

From Choki Motobu (1871-1944) he learned Tomari-te kata from Kosaku Matsumora (1829-1898) (and also Shuri-te kata).

And he wrote that he used the "Matsu" in honor of both Matsumura and Matsumora.


It is so difficult to say what is more traditional.

One may say, that the Itosu lineage is the most traditional, although he obviously made up Pinan from parts of Kusanku. Also, somewhere in time the Shô and Dai versions of Kusanku appeared.

One may say, that the Tomari-te kata brought down from Kosaku Matsumora (1829-1898) are more traditional, because they did not go via Itosu.

For example, the Matsubayashi-ryu version of Kusanku is the Kusanku version of Chatan Yara (together with Sakugawa the two known students of Kusanku). And there is no Shô and Dai version of it.

Anyway, the Kanji are very helpful to see more clearly the connections and distinctions.

Regards

[Nyuck3X]

Kobayashi: Small forest school (the one that looks like a peace symbol)
Shobayashi, Young forest school (the one that looks like a peace symbol with a tail)
Matsubayashi, Pine forest school

All three have the alternate pronuciation of Shorin-ryu.
Notice only the first character is different.

Passai Sho & Dai are actually two different versions
of the same kata. Sho is also known as Itosu Passai,
Dai is also known as Matsamura Passai. I am not sure
about Kusanku but I would guess it has a similar past.
Chibana learned Passai Sho from Itosu,but also learned
Matsamura's and integrated it into his system.

Basically you have the story on them.

Shobayashi is influenced by Kyan Sensei.

Kobayshi is influenced by Chibana Sensei.

Matsubayashi has influence from both, synthesized by Nagamine Sensei.
Tomari-te had a greater influence (in my opinion) on this
ryu than on Kobayashi-ryu. There is much more use of Shiko-dachi
in Shobayashi than Kobayashi.


Shorei-ryu from what I know is a Trias invention and should
be regarded as American Karate. Not better nor worse. His
inspiration was from all ryuhas he came into contact with.

That's my 2 cents.
Peace

[Shikiyanaka]

Yes, that helps. I didn't knew the differences in Passai.

But: the term Shôrei-ryu was used in Okinawa at least at the turn of the 19th/20th century, as opposed to Shôrin-ryû.

Shôrei-ryû and Shorin-ryû were the overall classifications of all styles (Also, Shôrin here again is written differently :p )

It goes approximately like this:
- Shôrei-ryû: influenced by southern Chinese styles (Naha-te, Uechi-ryû, Ryûei-ryû)

- Shôrin-ryû: influenced by northern Chinese styles (Shuri-te, Tomari-te) and Japanese influences.

I think Funakoshi wrote something about the styles, and it is also mentioned in McCarthy's Bubishi.

[Hank Irwin]

Andreasan, Shorin was not influenced by the Northern styles but rather the southern stles, Fukien, Lohan and such.:D

[Shikiyanaka]

Hank, thanks, but how to formulate that all?

Sure, at the time of main transmission of Chinese boxing styles to Okinawa was the time of Qing dynasty.

The Qing burned down the Shaolin temple on Songshan mountain in Henan (or Honan? I always throw them over). Accordingly the phase shifted and one Shaolin temple in the south, were Qing were not as influencial, became more important. According to the legends transmitted in the Bubishi, Fang Qiniang learned Luohan Quan (Monk Fist Boxing. Also Arhat boxing; Arhat = historical followers of the Buddha = monks) from her father, who in turn learned that style in northern Shaolin temple. From that and her own experiences she made up Baihe Quan or White Crane Boxing. The lineage went on up to Higashionna, Nakaima Kenri and many others. But Shuri styles also have Hakutsuru in it!?!?!

So far, so good.

At least, in Qing dynasty northern and southern styles seems to have mixed somewhat. MAybe it is more correct to say difference is in internal and external Boxing methods, but all trial seems not to be completely correct, and the Okinawan influence maybe also contributed to fade clear differences, if there ever were some.

As I was remembered by Hank that the mere "northern-southern boxing styles" differences are not sufficient and not correct to describe Shôrin and Shôrei, how could one formulate it? Are there any quotes upon that topic made by Karate masters? Is it possible, that thee is a connection to Waichinzan, Iwah and others and could it be that the difference is about military and civilian Quanfa?

Regards

[Hank Irwin]

Pretty much all the oral and written traditions available say the connection is southern Chinese Fist Arts that helped influence Okinawan Fighting traditions. Where did the original 14th century Chinese settlements to Okinawa come from? Southern China I believe. But Okinawa was trading with China long before that and settlers from China found their way there long before the 14th century. Quite a few countries were making commerce with Okinawa. That is another influence all together. All the fighting traditions of the northern temples were not all that is. There were fighting traditions in S.China long before the northern temple was destroyed. Some fighting systems were lost forever as a result. The three only internal Chinese Fist Arts, Ba Gua,Hsing-I, and Tai Chi Chaun IMO have a profound influence on all Chinese Fist Arts especially Shaolin. Not to mention the many Chinese Budoist that were not of Shaolin descent that taught others on their journeys, weather near, or far.:D

[Shikiyanaka]

Hank, you are right with Shôrei Ryû, I guess. I have been working on some entries of the BRD, and there it also appears, that Shôrin Ryû stylist were studying a discipline which was called Warei Ryû 和霊流, which is said to be same as Shôrei Ryû 昭霊流 and Shôrei-ji Ryû 昭霊寺流. The name Shôrei-ji Ryû in fact seems to point that there is some connection to some temple, just as in Shôrin-ji Ryû 少林寺流 (Shaolin Temple Style).

For those interested, here is just one of those BRD entries (page 79). Please note, that it is from 1978 and the one or the other thing is not up to date:

糸洲流（空手）
糸洲安恒。沖縄県首里桃原に天保三年に生まれた。旧琉球王尚氏の祐筆であった。和霊流の城間に学び、また松村宗棍・松茂良興作の高弟である。大正四年八月死、八十五歳。二代目門人の摩文仁賢和。現三代目は賢和の門 人の坂上博一隆祥。大正四年四月十三日生まれ。剣道七段教士・居合道七段教士・銃剣道錬士・合気道五段・杖道六段・旧武徳会空手道錬士八段・現在空手教士。空手道糸洲会の組織あり。道場を玄武館という 。

Itosu Ryû (Karate)
Itosu Ankô. Born in Tenpô 3 [1832] in Shuri Tôbaru, Okinawa Prefecture. He was private secretary of the former royal Shô-family of Ryûkyû. Gusukuma [Shinpan, 1890-1954] studied Warei Ryû under him. [Itosu Ankô] was Kôtei of Matsumura Sôkon and Matsumora Kôsaku. He died in August Taishô 4 [1915], 85-years-old. Second generation was his student Mabuni Kenwa. The presetn and third generation is [Mabuni] Kenwa’s student Sakagami Ryûshô. [He was] born April 13., Taishô 4 [1915]. [Sakagami Ryûshô is] Kendô Nanadan Kyôshi, Iaidô Nanadan Kyôshi, Jûkendô Renshi, Aikidô Godan, Jôdô Rokudan, Karate Renshi Hachidan of the (former) Butokukai and present Karate Kyôshi. Organized the Karate-dô Itosu-kai. Dôjô is the Genbukan.

So I have to keep on agonizing over that matter. :p

Because:

昭霊寺流（空手）
琉球の那覇市付近に発祥。唐手主流の一。
Shōrei-ji Ryū (Karate)
Originated in the vicinity of the city of Naha. It is one main current of Tôde.

and - while the BRD of 1962 writes : 昭霊流（空手） 昭霊寺流に同じ。 [Shôrei Ryû (Karate). The same as Shôrei-ji Ryû], the 1978 edition writes, that Shôrei Ryû Karate originated from Kyan Chôfu, the father of Kyan Chôtoku.

Furthermore, on page 377 follows:
昭林流（空手）
和花朝信の小林流の前称。

Meaning that [B]Shôrin Ryû 昭林流 was the name that Chibana Chôshin [correct 知花朝信] called his Shôrin Ryû 小林流.

My head is steaming...

[Hank Irwin]

Andreasan, time for some cha, no? Sky is blue, grass is green, om yom om hahahaha!

[Shikiyanaka]

Its hard to reach 1.000 posts without being shallow... But, sure, you're right. However, I didn't reach my tea-appreciation time, so instead it will be coffe. :)