PDA

View Full Version : The Philosophy of Jujutsu - Present Day



Green_Dreads
14th March 2004, 06:15
While aikido, Shorinji kenpo and karate all have their philosophical implications it seems ju-jutsu has bypassed the customary ethical attachments that other styles seem to have.

Does anybody know any history on the influence of, for example, Bushido or Zen on ju-jutsu in its historical form?

Even more relevantly, while I enjoy sport ju-jutsu, I can see a growing concern that this may be the future of ju-jutsu, not as an art or combat method but merely a sport.

Incidently, the O-sensei of aikido, Morihei Ushiba, did show concern that budo would one day become a mere physical exercise or worse yet, simply a sport. Are we seeing his fears come true in ju-jutsu today, as merely a handy tool for Brazilian gentlemen to win MMA contests with?

Tri-ring
14th March 2004, 15:19
Konbanwa Lewin-san

The origin of Jujitsu or any other traditional Japanese martial art(beside sumo) for that matter had very practical application.
Jujitsu was originally formed as hand to hand combat as a last resort should your katana was to be damaged during battle.
Therefore a samurai in the sengoku era would have practiced both batto jutsu as well as Jujitsu for survival.
Although it is not common, there are striking (punches, kicks) assault methods within koryu jujitsu to render the opponent down.
There are also other methods like swiming while wareing a kabuto and/or how to prepare survival rations for battle stituation as well.

Mekugi
14th March 2004, 17:10
Jujutsu is a generic term- there are many different and older names for "unarmed methods" so the category really falls flat.In fact, you'll find that they really aren't as "unarmed" as one would think, once one understands a little about them!

Koryu.com (http://www.koryu.com) would be the first place to start. I think searching around on there and reading a little bit will answer your questions.

What you are seeing in MMA is an offspring of Judo, by the way. That is, BJJ is actually Judo with heavy emphasis on newaza, not unlike Kosen Judo.


Originally posted by Green_Dreads
While aikido, Shorinji kenpo and karate all have their philosophical implications it seems ju-jutsu has bypassed the customary ethical attachments that other styles seem to have.

Does anybody know any history on the influence of, for example, Bushido or Zen on ju-jutsu in its historical form?

Even more relevantly, while I enjoy sport ju-jutsu, I can see a growing concern that this may be the future of ju-jutsu, not as an art or combat method but merely a sport.

Incidently, the O-sensei of aikido, Morihei Ushiba, did show concern that budo would one day become a mere physical exercise or worse yet, simply a sport. Are we seeing his fears come true in ju-jutsu today, as merely a handy tool for Brazilian gentlemen to win MMA contests with?

Green_Dreads
14th March 2004, 18:15
I have heard a lot of speculation on the history of ju-jutsu, but its not easy to trace its history directly. There are certain ryu, such as Daita Ryu Aiki Jujutsu, which has a very well preserved history, and others, such as Atemi Jujutsu, that have not got such a well-documented past.

Traditionally, jujutsu contains a lot of striking techniques, but many modern dojo prefer to lean more towards grappling and techniques that can be used to gain points or a submission in sport jujutsu.

Many martial arts have stayed away from competition entirely to avoid becoming a sport, and for a long while jujutsu followed this route.

What will be the future of jujutsu?

Mekugi
14th March 2004, 18:59
I hate to tell you this, but you're barking up the wrong tree here.

Daito ryu does not have a cut and dried history as it can barely be traced past Takeda Sokaku (not that it doesn't extend beyond him, mind you, I am talking in the form of records). I have never heard of a school named "Atemi Jutsu" in Japan.

Atemi in the mainland Japanese unarmed combat is rather limited if you compare it to it's modern exponents.

"Jujutsu" has not followed a sport route for a long while.
I believe what you are mistaking for "Japanese Jujutsu" is more than likely Brazillian jujutsu. Again, this is something modern and the offspring of Judo.



Originally posted by Green_Dreads
I have heard a lot of speculation on the history of ju-jutsu, but its not easy to trace its history directly. There are certain ryu, such as Daita Ryu Aiki Jujutsu, which has a very well preserved history, and others, such as Atemi Jujutsu, that have not got such a well-documented past.

Traditionally, jujutsu contains a lot of striking techniques, but many modern dojo prefer to lean more towards grappling and techniques that can be used to gain points or a submission in sport jujutsu.

Many martial arts have stayed away from competition entirely to avoid becoming a sport, and for a long while jujutsu followed this route.

What will be the future of jujutsu?

MarkF
14th March 2004, 21:57
Russ is essentially correct about DR AJJ. There is barely a history beyond Takeda Sokaku. Mostly, it is in the form of ettiquette and not much else.

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is not Japanese, and even Carlos Gracie's exposure to Kodokan Jiu Jitsu (The judo he did learn came from an early proponent of judo when it was commonly referred to and spelled the way it is, but it was judo) was relatively short; amounting to a two or three years, perhaps a bit more, but even that isn't exactly known, though the Kodokan keeps immaculate records. There is a bust of Maeda at the Kodokan.

Much of the conjecture about BJJ centering on groundwork is that, from the short time Maeda was in Brazil, newaza/katame waza was easier to remember so it was easier to learn. What makes it especially interesting is the law suit between the two sides of the Gracie family; those from Carlos Gracie, and those from his brother's side, Helio Gracie who is still living (Helio Graqcie is in his 90s, the lawsuit and what came about from it, was in the 1980s). Carlos wrote two books on what he termed 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' in the 1940s, both almost entirely on tachiwaza or standing technique. Obviously, most of this took place as nage-waza or throwing technique. It is interesting because today, if there is any throwing done in BJJ, a maximum of seven throws are generally used, almost always to bring someone off their feet and laying on the mat. Rorion Gracie Trademarked his academy, Gracie Jiu Jitsu, so while it probably isn't wrong to call it Gracie Jiu Jitsu for that reason, according to Rorion Gracie, he teaches "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu" but the name of his school is The Gracie Jiu Jitsu Academy. While judo is much less specific than other budo, the same can be said of BJJ when compared to Kodokan Judo.

Helio Gracie, the younger of the two brothers, learned while watching his brother Carlos teach, at least in the early days.
******

You are worried about something which cannot stop. Without a reason to exist, much will disappear and has all ready. Don't forget, the reasons for learning jujutsu in the past is all ready gone. Those who do keep it alive have all ready changed in so many ways that no one will ever truly know. There is, however, much in the scrolls and such to approximate the technique, and that which worked fine in armor now must be more intricate, so it is laudible that those who have kept it alive, have kept it as real as it could be, but the type of history known doesn't teach the technique, it only teaches a concept, among other things.

Kodokan Judo came along at a time that the majority of people in Japan thought that learning to fight was for the lower class person, and the practitioners, the students, didn't help any to convince them otherwise. As the bushi class passed into history, many resorted to crime, causing fights to test their technique. Another, more honorary way it was done in the past was for one style to challenge another to "taryu jiai," basically, a challenge offered from one school to another to see which was the better. The winners had a great day of triumph, but the losers didn't lose much. Knowing that the other's technique worked more effectively, they brought it back to their school to use, and is much the reason the different jujutsu styles look so similar to the untrained eye.

Another tactic of the jujutsu schools of the 1870s and 1880s was to "jump in" students, similar to how gangs jump in their prosepctive members today. They beat the stuffing out of him, something one young academic studnt of jujutsu did not like in the styles he either had license (Kyoju dairi or equivalent) or had studied. He also had all ready begun to believe that there was much more to jujutsu than was evident.

Kodokan Judo was born in 1882. For the first time, almost anyone was allowed to train. It began in a small temple, they quickly received complaints about the noise so the Kodokan moved to the home of youn Kano Jigoro's parent's home. Surely, there were rules, but that one thing got the word out to the jujutsu schools in a relative flash. Technique was taken apart and put back together, but instead of the he-man style heaving by the strongest of the jujutsu schools, they learned things they thought only fools would attempt, such as taking a foot off the ground to throw one's uke to the ground, or that using the the opponents own strengths and weaknesses against the attacker, with minimum effort to gain maximum efficiency, was effective, and far easier to let the attacker's own power during an attack to do him in. He wasn't the only one who thought that way (another to use similar skill was Sokaku Takeda. One let nearly everyone try while the other taught its most effective techniques to a small handful) of course, but no academic had even looked into tai jutsu (as well as sword and other weapon defense) so thoroughly as did Kano (Takeda was illiterite, he just did not like school).

At the same time, there was no real reason for it, but it did save much of what was all ready dying, and rekindled some who had given up. There was a hand up, not a hand out, as long as the student was willing to do so under Kodokan rule of play.

Shi-ni-ai was a nearly instantaneous hit amongst the Kodokan judoka. There was no type of combat at the time to which unarmed combat was necessary, so it became a symbolic combative matches fought at full speed and resistence, but with most of the more dangerous technique held to practice only in kata. The definition of shi-ni-ai, which soon became shiai, was "the closest thing to fighting to the death" a liberal translation, but close enough.

So while many today see the outcome of a sporting contest as bad, it does have benefits which ulimately outweigh the bad. Don't forget, it was mandatory training at one time by the Tokyo Police Department, and is still a choice today of several. Others, as in Osaka, also learned judo for its ability to make quick arrests. Uyeshiba was one of many at the time who thought contest with combative arts was bad, he was probably one of those who came to despise violence. Aikido is a sport, in most forms, but has no true contest except for randori. Shodokan Aikido does hold shiai though it doesn't hold true to all Tomiki style schools.

Much of this must be understood in the context of the day, not all that long ago, but still certain things must be considered. Kano was quoted many times before his death, when asked about judo being a venue in the Olympic Games. His usual answer was: "Judo is not a game." He also said that while he would not be the one to do so, and he would not stop anyone else from doing so if that person thought it right. Judo had all ready been scheduled as a demonstration at the Tokyo Games of 1940 which never came off, obviously.

So what you call gendai jujutsu, or sport jujutsu is really a kind of judo. Judo players are always aware that what they are learning is jujutsu on the path to the way of gentleness or flexability. The way includes how one leads his life, as well, something else not considered in the pre-modern jujutsu styles.
********

Three styles, from the origin of the ryu itself, off the top of my head are Takeuchi, or Takenouchi, Kashima Shinryu and Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu, are the only ryu of any kind, mostly of sword, but with small curricula of taijutsu as well, have survived largely in tact and down familial lines since the late sixteenth century. These are probably the only three out of the hundreds which made it largely unscathed, today. That doesn't mean other ryu were not passed down, just that these three are generally thought to be the oldest with TSKSR proven the oldest ryu still extent. Takeuchi is generally considered the first ryu, from that sprung all the rest.

Of course, I may be wrong on most of it, but recognize that I just shot my load.;)


Mark

Green_Dreads
14th March 2004, 22:52
:smilejapa Arigato!

No matter where I look I can never find a very comprehensive history of ju-jutsu. Usually at best I get a little information about Chinese records of sumo bouts held in BC and maybe some information about later day yawara (if I spelled this right?) techniques. One Daita Ryu site claimed to have a very comprehensive history going back 900 years, but in reality this was probably just a collection of various ju-jutsu history articles.

I was not aware atemi jutsu (a ryu of ju-jutsu in its own right) was not practised at all in Japan. Perhaps it goes under another name?

I've often wondered how many of the modern techniques we practise in todays ju-jutsu come directly from ancient ju-jutsu, if any. How old is each technique? This is probably a rhetorical question, but it seems to me its perfectly possible what we practise today has no simularity to what would have been practised over a thousand years ago by ju-jutsuka.

I understand that in the days of the samurai, kenjutsu would have been the focus of a martial artists training and therefore they did not attempt to perfect ju-jutsu to the extent the later (and modern) ju-jutsuka does. This is logical as today, we can not simply carry swords or daggers - in the UK and some American states not even guns - around with us outside the house or dojo.

There have always been contests in ju-jutsu, but I think that its possible eventually ju-jutsu will end up purely a sport. My sensei held a contest locally last Sunday, and the attitude of many of the people from the other clubs was basically, 'Who cares about self-defense and kata? We only train to win trophies'.

I was aware ju-jutsu had a bad reputation in Japan in the days of judo, has this improved in the Japanese publics eye? I know this is incidental, but I'd be interested to know how modern Japanese veiw ju-jutsu.

Mekugi
15th March 2004, 00:58
Hey Mark where did you get this? Is it yours?

-Russ

MikeWilliams
15th March 2004, 10:52
Mark, that was an awesome post.

For an interesting alternative take on the origins of BJJ, check this out: http://www.geocities.com/global_training_report/cartas.htm

For the views of a Brazilian Judoka, see: http://www.geocities.com/global_training_report/mehdi.htm

(More seems to be made of the Gracie/judo rivalry than might actually be the case: I know of few high-ranking BJJers who have not cross-trained in judo, and I believe George Mehdi himself holds rank in BJJ)


Originally posted by Green_Dreads
I've often wondered how many of the modern techniques we practise in todays ju-jutsu come directly from ancient ju-jutsu, if any. How old is each technique? This is probably a rhetorical question, but it seems to me its perfectly possible what we practise today has no simularity to what would have been practised over a thousand years ago by ju-jutsuka.

Well, there are only so many ways to throw somebody, or lock a joint. If you look at wrestling styles from around the world (Lancashire, Mongolian, modern freestyle), you quickly see similarities in technique. IMO, it is mainly strategy rather than technique that seperates the grappling arts. I have also seen illustrations of throwing techniques in old German "Fechtbuecher" that could have come straight out of Kodokan Judo.

If you study JJ in the UK under one of the big organisations (BJJA, WJJF, JJIF) - then you are studying Judo with added nasty bits bolted on. The lineage basically goes back to Yukio Tani & Barton Wright, via pre-war judo (qv. the Budokwai). Then WWII combatives seems to have been a big influence, as was later teachers' exposure to karate and other (gendai) MAs.

As far as I can tell, there is no link whatsoever to any koryu.

(edited for spelling)

kenkyusha
15th March 2004, 18:15
Originally posted by Green_Dreads
snip
One Daita Ryu site claimed to have a very comprehensive history going back 900 years, but in reality this was probably just a collection of various ju-jutsu history articles.
BTW, it's Daito Ryu, and as both Mark and Russ said, there is no verifiable information dating it back to it's legendary founding.



I was not aware atemi jutsu (a ryu of ju-jutsu in its own right) was not practised at all in Japan. Perhaps it goes under another name?
Er... probably not. Atemi Ryu seems like the sort of thing that someone with a smattering of Japanese would name a system... doesn't sound like an native term.


I've often wondered how many of the modern techniques we practise in todays ju-jutsu come directly from ancient ju-jutsu, if any. How old is each technique? This is probably a rhetorical question, but it seems to me its perfectly possible what we practise today has no simularity to what would have been practised over a thousand years ago by ju-jutsuka.
Depends. In some cases, we have some fairly well preserved kata (and the densho to back them up) which seem mostly unchanged for the last 150 - 200 years.


I understand that in the days of the samurai, kenjutsu would have been the focus of a martial artists training and therefore they did not attempt to perfect ju-jutsu to the extent the later (and modern) ju-jutsuka does. snip
Depends again. For the Segoku Jidai, training in sojutsu, kyujutsu and naginatajutsu were probably more prevalent than kenjutsu.


There have always been contests in ju-jutsu, but I think that its possible eventually ju-jutsu will end up purely a sport.
Er... well, if by contest you mean people fighting for their lives, then, sure. If you mean inter-ryu grappling matches... that didn't come-about until the Tokugawa.

Be well,
Jigme