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P.A.L
15th March 2004, 22:20
Hi
I am very interested in history of each kata at
the moment I am working on Nihanchi ,I’d like to
know your opinions.
1- your linage
2- explain your Nihanchi (or Tekki)
stance ( what do you dislike about your stance)
3- start from right or left
4- what is your first hand move ( Rapid Hito
strike to neck, or slow extending the open
hand for a grab or ? ) in Nihanchi(Teki) shodan

I start from myself
1- Chosen Chibana linage of shorin ryu
2- legs open as wide as shoulders ,turning hills outward about 30 degree. And I think it is narrow
3- we start toward right
4- our first move is a rapid attackt to the neck using side of hand (palm up I think we call it hito opposite side of shouto)

Regards
Ali

Shorinman
15th March 2004, 23:53
Hello Ali,

1 – Same lineage (Chibana)
2 – I do double shoulder width, I keep my feet almost straight forward with the toes very slightly turned inward gripping the floor. The outside of the legs tight from the top to the bottom, to the outside edges of the feet firmly pressing against the floor.
3 – Start to the right.
4 – We block with the forearm leaving the open hand for grabbing / controlling the attackers upper body to counter. A haito uchi would be another interpretation, but we don’t use it that way.

Regards,

Mitch Saret
16th March 2004, 20:51
I come from Oyata's lineage, going through to Nakamura and Itosu.

We do Naihanchi pretty much the same as Shorinman...feet double shoulder width, almost straight, etc.

We also start to the right. However, we consider the opening move bringing the hands in front of you, chin high, then rotating them downward, left hand on top covering the right. Then, moving to the right with the right hand looking like a backhand to the side of the opponents face, but is really the forearm strike with the hand open.

Jussi Häkkinen
17th March 2004, 15:57
1: Seibukan, Naifanchi coming to Zenpo Shimabukuro from Chozo Nakama (family friend, student of Chosin Chibana, although learned Naifanchi from Choki Motobu).

2: Stance: Inside of feet in shoulder width. Toes forwards. Personal thought: Very natural.

3: Starting to right.

4: Fast, arcing forearm block to right, leaving hand open for grabbing and controlling the opponent for counter.

Old Dragon
20th March 2004, 04:07
HI:

Isshin Ryu Nihanchi starts to the left,

The first technique after the first step is an open hand middle block, followed by an elbow.

I beleive and I may stand to be corrected here that is came from Kyan, having said that Shimabuku also studied with Motobu, but I do beleive that Sensei once said it originated with Kyan.

It is also beleived that starting in different directions was at one time simply that someone forgot, but that because it repeats in two directions that who ever discovered it simply said...."OH WELL"

I have another thread from a month ago that talked about this.

Mike O'Leary

Jussi Häkkinen
20th March 2004, 08:20
Originally posted by Old Dragon
I beleive and I may stand to be corrected here that is came from Kyan, having said that Shimabuku also studied with Motobu, but I do beleive that Sensei once said it originated with Kyan.

Kyan did not teach Naifanchi (ensured, for example, by Nakazato Joen, Kyan's student. Mark Bishop has a mistake in his book about Naifanchi and Kyan, as well). So, it's more probable that Isshin-Ryu's Naifanchi comes from Motobu.

Old Dragon
20th March 2004, 09:10
Originally posted by Jussi Häkkinen
Kyan did not teach Naifanchi (ensured, for example, by Nakazato Joen, Kyan's student.


Can I ask what you mean by "ensured" and where you have seen this?


Mike O'Leary

Jussi Häkkinen
20th March 2004, 09:23
Originally posted by Old Dragon
Can I ask what you mean by "ensured" and where you have seen this?


I did mean "confirmed" but didn't find the right word (I had just awaken).

I mean that Kim Mitrunen did meet Joen Nakazato last summer and asked about this very thing (which had been questionized many times before). Joen Nakazato confirmed that Kyan did not teach Naifanchi. Many of the Kyan's former students do/did teach Naifanchi, but they got the kata from other sources.

Old Dragon
20th March 2004, 10:02
Originally posted by Jussi Häkkinen
I did mean "confirmed" but didn't find the right word (I had just awaken).

I mean that Kim Mitrunen did meet Joen Nakazato last summer and asked about this very thing (which had been questionized many times before). Joen Nakazato confirmed that Kyan did not teach Naifanchi. Many of the Kyan's former students do/did teach Naifanchi, but they got the kata from other sources.



HMMMMM this starts me on a bit of a research thread hahahha thank you.


Mike O'Leary

P.A.L
20th March 2004, 15:42
Hi
1-Mike would you also explain your Naihanchi dachi,
2- I’ve red somewhere that in some styles students practice Naihanchi first toward right then the mirror kata as well.
3- most of documents also mention a Chinese man named Ason as the originator and like always sensei itosu divided the kata.(or maybe Masumura “Bushi”?)
4- is the Motobu version of Naihanchi also divided in three part or it is one long kara? I’ve seen a picture showing him doing a part of Naihanchi Sandan.

Regards,
Ali

Old Dragon
20th March 2004, 18:22
Originally posted by P.A.L
Hi
1-Mike would you also explain your Naihanchi dachi,
2- I’ve red somewhere that in some styles students practice Naihanchi first toward right then the mirror kata as well.
3- most of documents also mention a Chinese man named Ason as the originator and like always sensei itosu divided the kata.(or maybe Masumura “Bushi”?)
4- is the Motobu version of Naihanchi also divided in three part or it is one long kara? I’ve seen a picture showing him doing a part of Naihanchi Sandan.

Regards,
Ali


1. Isshin Ryu Nihanchi is Tekki Shodan. or Nihanchi Shodan, and as I said starting to the Left. Yes we do a mirror image in the reverse direction.


2. Our stance is slightly toes in. A very misunderstood stanc. We think of our opponent for bunkai purposes as being on a 45* angle for the opening middle block..... correction the first technique after the initial opening and step, which is an open hand middle block with an elbow strike.

As to your other questions I'm not sure I will have to check. I do have footage but need to dig it out. let you know tomorrow....

Also.. rules state sign with your full name... Ali.... no need for annonimity here.

Mike O'Leary

Kevin73
21st March 2004, 15:58
I don't know if Choki Motobu had Naihanchi sandan or not, I have seen his son perform Naihanchi shodan and nidan but he did not mention the 3rd part.

In the Motobu (as performed by Chosi Motobu, his son), it starts to the left and the stance is a little bit wider than shoulder width and the feet/toes look to be pointed straight ahead.

Old Dragon
21st March 2004, 19:19
Originally posted by Kevin73
I don't know if Choki Motobu had Naihanchi sandan or not, I have seen his son perform Naihanchi shodan and nidan but he did not mention the 3rd part.

In the Motobu (as performed by Chosi Motobu, his son), it starts to the left and the stance is a little bit wider than shoulder width and the feet/toes look to be pointed straight ahead.

Shimabuku studied with Motobu, and his nihanchi starts to the left, so this would make sense.

Stance is similar but slightly toes in. I am also aware that stances are often taught one way and then it is said the student will adjust slightly so as to gain their own balance. My personal feeling on this particular stance is that it is a momentary stance, not meant for use as a front stance is, but meant as a split second shift in attack and defense.

Of couse I could stand corrected, but try fighting in it.??????????

Mike O'Leary

Victor
22nd March 2004, 04:07
Mike,

You may find this interesting (and in the believe it or not category) but Pat McCarthy in his translation of Motobu Choki's "Karate My Art", contains a series of translations of Motobu's sayings by Joe Swift.

No. 34 (page 32).

There are no stances such as neko-ashi, zenkutsu or kokutsu in my karate. Neko-aschi is a form of 'floating foot' which is considered very bad in bujutsu. If one receives a body strike, one will be thrown off balance. Zenkutsu and kokutsu are un-natural and prevent free footwork. The stance in my karate, whether in kata or kumite, is like Nihanchi, with the knees slightly bent, and the footwork is free. When defending or attacking, I tighten the knees and drop the hips, but I do not put my weight on either front or back foot, rather keeping it evenly distributed.

As I said, believe it or not, but such was Motobu's practice, by his own words.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

P.A.L
22nd March 2004, 06:21
Hi
What you mentioned about sensei motobu does make sense, zenkutso dachi,Neko-ashi and kokutsu dachi all are transition forms , now if you imagine Migi ashi mae shizentai dachi (right foot front in natural stance) and turn Your front foot around 30� clockwise you are basically in Naihanchi dachi and If you recall it’s very close (but wider) to Bruce Lee posture(stance) in jeet kune –do.
I feel it gives me a higher level of reflection to a quick attack. (I feel jumpy by bending my knees)How would you guys feel in this stance as your kumite stance?

Ali Habibi

Old Dragon
22nd March 2004, 07:06
Originally posted by Victor
Mike,

You may find this interesting (and in the believe it or not category) but Pat McCarthy in his translation of Motobu Choki's "Karate My Art", contains a series of translations of Motobu's sayings by Joe Swift.

No. 34 (page 32).

There are no stances such as neko-ashi, zenkutsu or kokutsu in my karate. Neko-aschi is a form of 'floating foot' which is considered very bad in bujutsu. If one receives a body strike, one will be thrown off balance. Zenkutsu and kokutsu are un-natural and prevent free footwork. The stance in my karate, whether in kata or kumite, is like Nihanchi, with the knees slightly bent, and the footwork is free. When defending or attacking, I tighten the knees and drop the hips, but I do not put my weight on either front or back foot, rather keeping it evenly distributed.

As I said, believe it or not, but such was Motobu's practice, by his own words.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

Old Dragon
22nd March 2004, 07:50
Originally posted by Victor
Mike,

You may find this interesting (and in the believe it or not category) but Pat McCarthy in his translation of Motobu Choki's "Karate My Art", contains a series of translations of Motobu's sayings by Joe Swift.

No. 34 (page 32).

There are no stances such as neko-ashi, zenkutsu or kokutsu in my karate. Neko-aschi is a form of 'floating foot' which is considered very bad in bujutsu. If one receives a body strike, one will be thrown off balance. Zenkutsu and kokutsu are un-natural and prevent free footwork. The stance in my karate, whether in kata or kumite, is like Nihanchi, with the knees slightly bent, and the footwork is free. When defending or attacking, I tighten the knees and drop the hips, but I do not put my weight on either front or back foot, rather keeping it evenly distributed.

As I said, believe it or not, but such was Motobu's practice, by his own words.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu


Victor: Sorry about the last post I stopped to edit and took to long.


1. First, PAL... keep that thought in mind about shifting the foot, I beleive that all stances are connected in the same way.

2. Victor: on that first note, I would like to make a hypothosis,

Karate, in the last few years of sport and misunderstanding has lost its close in combat heritage. In the study of "MA" or distancing and position study, we have shifted to a greater distance based on sport and the fact that nobody ever really lands a devastating blow as you would in contact due to restrictions of rules and tragets.

(A little Rod Serling music if you please)

Imagine if you will a system of combat that operates within arms length, where all kicks are aimed at the lower legs, knees are aimed at the thighs and groin and the length of your arm will reach the spine in your opponent, not simply touch his chest.

Imagine if you will that facing that oponent is very close and reactions must be immediate, so what better way to avoid a strike than to simply shift your weight, angle and position without stepping but by "shifting"

I know that many, will state that these shifts will leave you unbalanced with the weight moving over one foot or in what many will think as unbalanced, but if it is simply for an instant, and then you shift back to counter the attack, is it not quicker and safer than taking a full step where you shift all the weight to one foot for a moment, and that moment can be longer than the shift.

It is a theory, and I have been working on this for a few years now and find that by standing in a forward stance and simply shifting one foot in or out, then dropping or rising or shifting the weight appropriatly I can make it into any stance.

dont get me wrong, my sensei has shown me this and It has taken a while to accept that shifting so your punch will glance is better than stepping and attempting a slow block. It is the idea of economizing the motions to make them faster and fewer. ( And with that said Victor I am sure you now know where it is coming from hahahhahah Sensei AJ) although I am still working on it so dont call him up and take me to task..:)

Mr. Mcarthy and I have dicussed stance when he was here and taught Aragaki Seisan. It has a shorter natural stance much like Isshin Ryu Seisan, and Isshin Ryu Seisan stance is connected to every other stance much like PAL states he can move from one to another.

I will read Mr. Smiths book, I have also had a few dicussions with him about martial arts but I will specificlly look for this book by him.

It is a theory and not one that I hear often from traditional karate people because many of them use low deep stances, it does not work with these. Even Funakoshi said that low stances were for exercise and to deal with combat, stand up.

Thank you for your response Victor, I beleive that you and I have also exchanged an email or two over the last 10 years. I have always enjoyed your ideas and articles.

Now lets see if I can get this on the forum for the third time, without deleting it.

Mike O'Leary
(aka Dragons_wing3)