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kohei01
15th March 2004, 23:10
It is generally accepted that karate and kobudo were born out of a necessity for the Okinawan people to defend themselves in spite of governmental weapons bans. I have also seen a lot of cool pictures of kobudoka employing farm implements against people armed with Samurai swords. I am somewhat skeptical of the ability of a tonfa to effectively block a Samurai's katana, especially given how sharp those things were. Also, wouldn't engaging a Samurai in one-on-one combat be tantamount to suicide for some poor Okinawan farmer, whether he won the encounter or not.

I am not doubting the effectiveness of kobudo or karate. I love both of them. I am just somewhat skeptical of what is generally accepted to be the history of some of these arts. I just have a hard time imagining a farmer grabbing his kama and using it against a soldier of an occupational army. I would think the retribution would be fierce.

I understand there is a limited amount of written history in Okinawa about pretty much everything. However, I understand that the Japanese were and are very strict and efficient record keepers. Does anyone know of any examples or references to the Okinawan self-defense practices that may have been recorded by members of the Japanese government or the military from the occupational period?

Jussi Häkkinen
15th March 2004, 23:39
Neither karate nor kobudo were designed to be used against an armed samurai or other trained warrior with true weapons. Neither karate nor kobudo were developed among the peasants.

Martial arts in Okinawa were the thing for nobles and different kinds of officers (law-enforcement, bodyguards etc). Peasants were too busy with their fields and animals.

The invasion of Okinawa made by Satsuma-clan in 1609 was relatively fast and did not face much resistance.

Actually, the "against the armed samurai" -"history" isn't generally accepted anymore. It's a common story, but it doesn't really fly. Kobudo and karate were for other purposes - self-defense, physical fitness training and so on. It would be silly to try to use those against an armed warrior - especially when a bow was a samurai weapon #1. Even in close quarters bo and eku (and other such weapons) don't go far when faced with naginata, so/yari and other polearms.

n2shotokai
15th March 2004, 23:54
Originally posted by kohei01
It is generally accepted that karate and kobudo were born out of a necessity for the Okinawan people to defend themselves in spite of governmental weapons bans. I would change that to read, it was generally "believed". As Jussi pointed out, it is generaly accepted now that was not 100% true. I am not sure a katana would always go through a tonfa, but I am sure it is going to put one heck of a ding in the blade, something a samurai probably would not want to risk with a valued blade.

kohei01
16th March 2004, 01:18
Thanks for the replies. I have always thought some of those stories sounded pretty fishy. They would make for some interesting fiction, though. Are there any historical texts that are considered qualitative references to the history of karate and kobudo? Especially something by someone with no hidden agenda, or someone operating from a pure word-of-mouth standpoint. I am considering looking into a book called "The History of the Martial Arts" by Mark W. Swarthout. Has anyone ever heard of him or his reputation?

Blackwood
16th March 2004, 02:22
Well, I'm here! It isn't a book, it is a few articles that I've put together, new one every month. They are really high level stuff and barely scratch the surface.

Mark Bishop had a book Okinawan Karate that is considered pretty good. A couple of other good ones would be Shoshin Nagamine The Essence of Okinawan Karate-do, and of course Funakoshi's Karate-do, My Way of Life. And anything by Patrick McCarthy would be good, too. I'm currently reading his Bubushi translation.

kohei01
16th March 2004, 02:40
Thanks, Mark. I will check those out. I find your articles interesting, but in one I read on Eizo Shimabukuro, you state that Eizo was Kyan's most noted student. What is your source of information? I seem to be running across some conflicting accounts. Please have a look at my post entitled "Who are these Shimabukuro's". Thanks.

Blackwood
16th March 2004, 03:09
As I just posted on the other thread, 'noted' entails an opinion, not necessarily a fact. Others, yourself included, may have a totally different opinion on who the most noted student was. Doesn't mean any of them are wrong, just seen differently.

Steven Malanosk
16th March 2004, 03:59
Hi!

I just want to remind everyone that on the note of "WOODEN WEAPONS" such as tonfa, Kon "Bo," etc., being less than effective against the "Armed BuShi," that the famed Musashi was fefeated by a guy with a stick "Jo."

n2shotokai
16th March 2004, 06:07
He was much younger than Musashi if I remember correctly.

Blackwood
16th March 2004, 11:30
And, if I recall, Musashi defeated him first with a carved oar, which inspired him to create the jo after Musashi spared his life.

TimoS
16th March 2004, 11:55
Originally posted by Blackwood
And, if I recall, Musashi defeated him first with a carved oar, which inspired him to create the jo after Musashi spared his life.

If I remember the story correctly, I think you are confusing the carved oar part with his duel with Sasaki Kojiro. At least I think in the book it was like that.

Cinnabar
16th March 2004, 13:26
Supposedly, it was Muso Gonnosuke on the Musahi vs jo deal.
.

Steven Malanosk
16th March 2004, 13:49
It does not matter who beat who first.

The final battle is the only one that counts.

And that is not to mention the Gusari Gama incident..............

I am certainly not dissing Miyamoto Samma, just the thought that the all mighty KoBuDo of Japan is thought by some to be superior to the KoBuDo of the RyuKyus or China for that matter.

I am middle of the road in that I majored in the latter two, but minored in Omori Ryu. It's all worthy of respect, and there are no superior BuJutsus or WuShus. Just superior BuGeiSha.

Old Dragon
17th March 2004, 07:02
Originally posted by kohei01
Thanks, Mark. I will check those out. I find your articles interesting, but in one I read on Eizo Shimabukuro, you state that Eizo was Kyan's most noted student. What is your source of information? I seem to be running across some conflicting accounts. Please have a look at my post entitled "Who are these Shimabukuro's". Thanks.


If I may butt in here.

I think that anyone who became head of one of the styles of shorin Ryu would be considered a "noted" student. Especially if you had two brothers who each became the heads of style, both students of Kyan.

Eizo and Tatsuo Shimabuku (or the more formal shimabukuro) are noted for being the head of (sorry I forget at the moment which style of shorin ryu "Eizo" and Tatsuo being the founder and head of Isshin ryu.


As to who trained in the martial arts, the elite or the common people, one thought to keep in mind, if you are a starving farmer do you have time to train in the martial arts. I think it is becoming commonly accepted that the training of the martial arts was for the "upper class"

and one more fact... Kobudo was first by many years. Ti came much later.


Mike O'leary

Steven Malanosk
17th March 2004, 14:17
That would be ShoBayashi Shorin Ryu that Eizo Shimabuku heads.

Blackwood
17th March 2004, 14:31
Getting back to kohei01's first post, I thought this site had a pretty decent summary of the history and its relationship to the farmer/samurai/noble origins. I like the thought process here and it makes a lot more sense to me than the farmer stories.

History of the Nunchuka (http://nunchaku.tripod.com/about_e.htm)

But I might point out, that the writer feels that the only way a nunchuka could be used as a flail was to kneel on the rice. However, most Okinawans are very comfortable in a squatting position, which I believe would be at the proper height for flailing.

Steven Malanosk
17th March 2004, 14:41
Sorry to keep butting in, but since I'm subscribed to this thread, please indulge me.

Nunchaku, where already well known in the Chinese MA before Okinawa.

Just like the sai.

As a weapon.

The Uchinan folk addpoted the technology and I am sure used it with what was available, ie: horse bridle and or flail. Each being modified for use.

As a matter of fact most if not all the so called KoBuDo weapons where influenced by or came from various visitors to the RyuKyus. The 36 families, merchants, envoys, pirates etc.

Old Dragon
18th March 2004, 00:44
I know of no history on the nunchaku in china and will concede to any documentation of this. I have personally seen horse bridals that are used as nunchaku. My Kobudo sensei who trained with Akamine, who trained with Taira Shinken, maintains that they are not a flail. Fact is there is no rice of any major distinction grown on Okinawa. I have seen old family nunchaku in private family dojo and they fit the description of the horse bridal. That is the stand of Ryu Kyu Kobudo Hozon shinku kai and Ryu Kyu Kobudo tesshin kan organizations which are direct decent of Taira Shinken on Okinawa.


Mike O'leary.

Steven Malanosk
18th March 2004, 04:00
As to any group on Okinawa that has any formal practice of nunchaku, these patterns or exercises are indegeonous to the particular school of thought.

Taira Sensei reorchestrated through his hypothesis of what once was.

My personal research is what I use to back up my beleif, as I lived in various parts of the Orient for 3 years, with the bulk of it in Okinawa.

I did not get it from a book or website.

There are quite a few variations of theory, some from "notable" authors and some from "questionable" authors.

Keeps it interesting anyway.......

Just my 2 cents.

Happy St. Patricks Day Mr. O'leary.

Sorry to hear about Mrs. O'leary's cow.

:wave:

wsteigner
18th March 2004, 05:39
A little research on the weapons now taught as Okinawan Kobudo
will show that they are not indigenous to Okinawa but have southeast
Asian origins.The methods of employment by the Okinawan took on
distinctively Okinawan characteristics. This from " Asian Fighting
Arts" by Donn F. Draeger and Robert W. Smith.
Norisato Nakaima founder of Ryuei-Ryu brought to Okinawa the
practice of 14 Chinese weapons nunchiku was one of them. This from
"Okinawan Karate" by Mark Bishop.It is almost certain that the two
Chinese weapons called the shuang-chin-kun and shao-tse-kun are the
forerunner of the nunchaku. This from "Nunchaku and Sai" by Ryusho
Sakagami. The Okinawans were able to take many thing from other
fighting arts and make them theirs, Tode comes to mind as another
adopted art. If you have a chance visit the Dojo of Hokama Sensei
on Okinawa and see the weapons and how they looked before they
where adopted and made Okinawan by use and practice.
thank you
bill

Old Dragon
18th March 2004, 08:02
Originally posted by Steven Malanosk
As to any group on Okinawa that has any formal practice of nunchaku, these patterns or exercises are indegeonous to the particular school of thought.

Taira Sensei reorchestrated through his hypothesis of what once was.

My personal research is what I use to back up my beleif, as I lived in various parts of the Orient for 3 years, with the bulk of it in Okinawa.

I did not get it from a book or website.

There are quite a few variations of theory, some from "notable" authors and some from "questionable" authors.

Keeps it interesting anyway.......

Just my 2 cents.

Happy St. Patricks Day Mr. O'leary.

Sorry to hear about Mrs. O'leary's cow.

:wave:


Well sir, I must admit that most of my info is word of mouth, so as I said, I'm open to other interpretations. One of the problems is that the okinawan's did not write things down regarding the martial arts. so here we sit in a quandry, but that also makes the arts fun.

By the way... the cow got BBQ'd...it was great.

and "Finnegans" Pub was fun with the students tonight..... "Dem dere students, day sure know how to treat de old guy" hahahah

Mike O'Leary