Training for Knockdown

[Geoff]

I am toying with the idea of entering a full-contact knockdown tournament this year. I have always wanted to try one and there is one in several months not too far from where I live. However, I am a Shotokan guy and I have never fought full-contact before. I am hoping that people may have some suggestions and training advice including: solo and partner drills, text resources and video resources that would improve my sparring.

I am not exactly what you would call competitive in this area, but I'd like to make a decent showing (i.e. not embarass myself or my teacher) and have a good experience.

Thanks,

Geoff Wingard

[Harry Cook]

Hello Geoff,
interesting idea. What rules are you fighting under? The rules will dictate to some degree how you train. However a few fundamentals:-
1. develop a lot of stamina - running, skipping, high reps weight training with moderate to light weights.
2. do a lot of bag work, especially working on close range body punching (assuming something like kyokushinkai rules)
3. work on strong low level kicks with the shin to an oponent's legs; aim to take away his mobility and cause him a lot of pain.
4. increase your own tolerance to pain via body conditioning drills.
5. if possible train with boxers for a while to get used to close range techniques.
6. if the rules allow it develop methods of unbalancing your opponent to set him up for a strike. Once you are in close try to take his balance and use your knees to his stomach, thighs etc.
7. if head punching (presumably with gloves) is allowed make sure you know how to cover up safely. Do not leave yoyr chin exposed.
8. do not try to end the fight with one technique; work on combinations, switching low to high and vice versa to cause as much confusion as possible.
9. be mobile, but not too "busy" - make your opponent burn his energy at a faster rate than you do.
Try and get as many videos as you can of kyokuishinkai, Muay Thai fights and watch them as carefully as you can, especially those fighters about your build. Of course if you can find matches fought to whatever the rules are, so much the better.
best of luck,
Harry Cook

[elara]

Helly guys,
long time no see. Harry's advice is most excellent.
I think you'd also want to make sure most/all of your sparring uses the same rules and rounds structure. Esp. in the last few weeks leading up to a bout. You don't want to be second guessing yourself about these kinds of things during the match.


Originally posted by Harry Cook
7. if head punching (presumably with gloves) is allowed make sure you know how to cover up safely. Do not leave yoyr chin exposed.


I made the transition from training in Shotokan to Muay Thai full-time about a year ago and keeping my hands up continues to be one of my biggest 'problem areas' - even with the constant reminders. So, from my perspective this is probably the most important thing to emphasize.

You may also want to look into slipping/ducking. One idea: have a partner go at your head with typical kyokushin punches (jab, cross?), hard/fast enough to make respect the punches, but not so fast/hard that you can't maintain good form.



Good Luck,
Enrique Lara

[n2shotokai]

Originally posted by Geoff
I am not exactly what you would call competitive in this area, but I'd like to make a decent showing (i.e. not embarass myself or my teacher) and have a good experience.

Thanks,

Geoff Wingard I practice the same style as you. I have been around a few years and I am fairly proficient at what "I" do. If I was to step into a ring for full contact, they would hand me my rear. It is apples and oranges different worlds.

If you are looking to do a style change, that is another issue, otherwise I suggest you increase your health care coverage.

No offense intended, I am just trying to be honest.

[gmanry]

Harry's list is pretty much spot on. Aerobic strength conditioning and getting used to impact is important. The second is very important, because once you realize that 80% of what will be thrown at you will be completely ineffective, then you can mount your counter offense, which is the key to knocking an opponent out in the ring.

Manipulation of distance is KEY. Of course, this is sort of like jumping right to the top of the concept hierarchy too. When you can make your opponent think you are in range, make him miss, and still be in range, then you will be able to dominate people at your skill level. Lather, rinse and repeat for people who are better than you in order to progress. This requires courage (see above about pain tolerance), lots of patience, and pure concentration on the most subtle aspects of your opponents movement while in full motion. It is very, very hard to develop.

Harry mentioned being mobile, this is incredibly important. Light movement from flexed knees in a short stance will allow you to manipulate distance and confuse your opponent.

All of this is just very hard to put into words. You have to learn to float on the periphery of your opponents range, entice him to strike at you, then follow back in or around on their recovery and hit them from a vulnerable angle. You can't do this jumping around, and you can't do it "tensing" to block or take the blow. It is very, very fluid and non-stop motion.

Oh, once you land one, DON'T STOP. ;)

The last point is to learn how to develop real hitting power. This comes last, because form and technique comes first. The fact is that the majority of people in these knock down arts don't hit as well or as thoroughly as they should (these are the common practitioners like in any art who just aren't maximizing their potential). The best can move and hit with an authority that demands attention. If you can develop this along with movement and distance, a potential champion is born.

I have not seen any videos that show this well. Ashihara's books can show you how, if you have the time (you may not), the aptitude, and the patience to work on very small details.

The good news is that most of the people at the tournament really won't be able to do these things, but a few will and they will probably win the whole shebang. If you can just a piece of this equation, you will do well, so pick one or two aspects and start working on them.

[Chrono]

Originally posted by Harry Cook
4. increase your own tolerance to pain via body conditioning drills.

This is interesting. I thought that the only way to do this was to actually have experience in full-contact fighting. So, then, what kind of drills can one do?

Jon

[n2shotokai]

Where are the true hard nosed fighters when you need them? Probably just sitting back laughing. Oh guys!

[Harry Cook]

Mr. Wood asked about body conditioning drills. These can range from the relatively formal two person drills found in Uechi Ryu, Goju Ryu, Shorin Ryu, (ie often known as tanren) Southern Chinese styles of Chinese Boxing etc etc, to simply baging your arms, shins etc etc against a tree, wooden dummy (as in Muay Thai etc etc). One useful drill is to get a training partner (wearing gloves) to deliver short range punches to your abdomen while you rest your hands on his shoulders and tighten up, twist etc to "take" the punch. He should increase the severity at your request, ie when you feel up to it.
It was the habit of some Okinawan and Japanese karate-ka to condition themselves with a piece of wood, striking the body the become accustomed the the pain and shock. Gichin Funakoshi apparently did this as does Gushi sensei of the Uechi Ryu today.
You can see some useful body conditioning methods on Morio Higaonna sensei's tapes.
Conditioning in this way is a slow process, but if you are goiing to fight full contact you have got to do some form of body conditioning to handle the shock and pain caused when bone meets flesh. In my opinion this is far more important than dwelling on minor differences of technique.
Harry Cook

[Geoff]

I want to thank everyone, particularly Harry and Mr. Manry, for their advice. The tournament is about six months distant so I have some time to ramp up my training. Despite the various well-intentioned warnings I've received (especially from my wife) I have a personal interest in doing this. I appreciate the feedback - keep the advice coming.

Geoff

[Cinnabar]

I made the transition from training in Shotokan to Muay Thai full-time about a year ago and keeping my hands up continues to be one of my biggest 'problem areas' - even with the constant reminders. So, from my perspective this is probably the most important thing to emphasize.

Good Luck,
Enrique Lara


Mr. Lara,
Very interesting about you making the transition from a traditional karate style to Muay Thai. Was there one particular reason for doing this or if you don't mind describing the chain of events and influences that led to that decision? Also were you a beginner or Black Belt rank in karate when you switched?


Mr Geoff,
Why, now, knockdown karate and not another shotokan or another traditional style event?

[Budoka 34]

Geoff,

Good luck!

Another good body conditioning drill is with the medicine ball. Start lite and work up.
Here are a couple of easy drills you can try.

1) Have a partner throw the ball from the front allow it to make lite impact with the abs as you catch it. Then throw it back fast and hard from chest level. As you progress have your partner throw from different angles allowing you to add and work body twisting action to you impact trianing.

2) If you have to do some solo training. lie on a thin mat. Throw the ball forcefully from chest level and allow it to make lite impact with the abs as you catch it.

Three sets of up to twenty reps.
I wish I could do that many.:rolleyes:

These would be a decent addition to the partner impact drills mentioned earlier by Cook and Manry Sensei.

Find out if leg (thigh) kicks and sweeps are in the rules. This will change your strategy and training.
I'll leave the leg conditioning to the Muay Thai guys.

Remeber to get enough rest (at least 1 to 2 days) between impact sessions or your body will not like you.;)

Hope this helps.

:smilejapa

[MikeWilliams]

I really have a hard time believing that hitting hard objects with your shin/forearm etc. is going to do you any long term favours at all.

I am fairly sure the Thais condition their shins through hours spent on the heavy bag, plus actual fighting. I think the kicking trees or rolling bottles down your shin was born out of western misunderstanding of (obsolete) training methods. (Caveat: I am not a Thai, nor do I train Muay Thai).

To me the best form of conditioning for taking would have to be lots of sparring. Not only do you get used to the feel of real blows, you can also develop your skills while you do it. Much more productive.

Incidentally, no matter how conditioned you are, leg-kicks and shin-blocks ALWAYS hurt. As do liver punches and mawashi geri to the noggin. :smash: Take up grappling, dude - it's safer!

[Harry Cook]

Mr. Williams is correct when he says that hitting trees etc is no longer practised in Muay Thai. Actually Hardy stockman made the same point in his Muay-Thai book published in 1976 where he says that "The banana tree, the most important training aid of former times has gone out of fashion...since the introduction of the heavy bag these methods have gone out of fashion." (page 45)
A useful source of Muay Thai training methods is Muay Thai: The Most Distinguished Art of Fighting Panya Kraitus and Dr. Pitisuk Kraitus, published in Thailand1988.
Some full contact fighters condition their shins by kicking suspended rubber tyres.
As for delivering powerful low level kicks, one useful source would be video footage of the Shinjo brothers of Uechi Ryu. I have seen video footage of Kiyohide Shinjo putting his shin through three baseball bats (see Alan Dollar's book on Uechi Ryu, page 291). I believe he uses the old fashioned methods of shin conditioning.
Harry Cook

[P.A.L]

Hi
if it's a karate full contact then watch lots of kyukushin
videos and learn their foot work ( close range mawashi
to the head and neck ), you didn't mention the rules, that makes
a big difference.

Good luck
Ali

[hectokan]

I believe the most important tip that Mr.Cook gave,was to first learn the exact rules of the contest and then train specificaly with those rules in mind.

There are so many different types of tournaments,all with their own different types of rules that even within the knockdown karate community you have different factions that allow different techniques.

Example,although slipping & ducking would be a great skill to acquire for fighting arts like boxing,american kickboxing and point tournaments.The truth of the matter is that one must be very careful not practice too much bobbing & weaving in your knockdown karate training and espescially in muaythai training.


The upright position is of utmost importance for those two combat sports in avoiding the famous knee attacks that cause great damage,therefore training with this in mind is very important.again the rules should dictate what kind of training and sparring one should be focusing on.


I have always thought that besides the actual contact that is involved
with contact fighting the big difference that sets it apart(aside from the contact)is the actual defensive position that one lands in after every attack.Since it is usually a "continuos" form of fighting defensive strategies & tactics especially after you initiate your own attack are very important because more likey than not,he will be firing back and not falling down after you land your first good shot.

[elara]

Originally posted by Cinnabar
Very interesting about you making the transition from a traditional karate style to Muay Thai. Was there one particular reason for doing this or if you don't mind describing the chain of events and influences that led to that decision? Also were you a beginner or Black Belt rank in karate when you switched?


Mr. Gaska,
This may be more than you were asking for, pardon me while I ramble: At the time of the switch, I held a black belt rank in Karate, and had been training in Shotokan as my primary style for about 12 years. Probably the biggest motivation for making any transition was the desire to engage a live opponent, in a relatively safe* setting. I have had some great training partners, but I feel there is a difference between someone who is trying to push you and someone who is really trying to hurt you. I want to see what works - for me - in the given context.

I probably could've considered a knockdown tournament as Geoff is seeking out - but plain old curiousity got me looking outside of the traditional karate spectrum. How I ended up training in Muay Thai was circumstance - I got put on to the school where I currently train by an acquaintance. I had visited once or twice and remembered really enjoying the experience - so I decided to give it a go.

We'll see how it goes.

Peace,
Enrique Lara


*safe - one-on-one, no weapons, someone to stop it if I'm getting royally pummelled

[elara]

Originally posted by hectokan
Example,although slipping & ducking would be a great skill to acquire for fighting arts like boxing,american kickboxing and point tournaments.The truth of the matter is that one must be very careful not practice too much bobbing & weaving in your knockdown karate training and espescially in muaythai training.


I know next to nothing about knockdown karate training - so I'll take your word for it.

WRT Muay Thai I have definitely been told that the knees are a concern - especially if you're really ducking under those punches.





I have always thought that besides the actual contact that is involved
with contact fighting the big difference that sets it apart(aside from the contact)is the actual defensive position that one lands in after every attack.Since it is usually a "continuos" form of fighting defensive strategies & tactics especially after you initiate your own attack are very important because more likey than not,he will be firing back and not falling down after you land your first good shot.

word.


Peace,
Enrique Lara

[shotofan]

I agree with everything posted so far. But one thing I learned, that helped me was heavy sparring with protction other than a mouth guard.
A good diet also will help your body heal faster. If you can afford it, buy supllments. Like muscles builders. They build muscle but also help repair they also. But learn to take a punch.

[Cinnabar]

Mr. Gaska,
At the time of the switch, I held a black belt rank in Karate, and had been training in Shotokan as my primary style for about 12 years. Probably the biggest motivation for making any transition was the desire to engage a live opponent, in a relatively safe* setting. I have had some great training partners, but I feel there is a difference between someone who is trying to push you and someone who is really trying to hurt you. I want to see what works - for me - in the given context.

Peace,
Enrique Lara



Mr. Lara,

Very interesting, very interesting indeed.
With the thinking that "It's All in the phantasmagoria bunkai of kata" most traditionalist wouldn't bother venturing one day where you are now. You made a bold move to further test yourself and to enhance your technical skills. Thanks for your response you did answer the question very well. Thank you.

[Chrono]

Mr. Cook,
Thanks for the elaboration. I should have known that's how it was done, since that's how some people demonstrate their ability to take a hit, especially with pieces of wood being thrown at them.


Geoff,
I, also, have wanted to compete in a full-contact tournament. A good way to test your skills, I think. Although, I think I should get up in my ranking a bit more before I do. If it's alright, after you compete I would like to know how it went.


Jon

[shotofan]

Yes, I would also like to know what you think of it. I love it. I think it is a good way to get the idea of how your skills are. Just remember it is still a sport in the senice their are still rules. But still good to learn from.

[gmanry]

Find someone who has a good low roundhouse kick (mawashi geri) and trade kicks with them to the outer thigh. Don't bother with the inner thigh, you can't condition it. This is much safer than just going for it in the ring. Start at 10-20% power and work up.

Make sure you are getting follow through penetration and not just slapping the thigh. Don't go all the way through though, as a bone bruise is not what you need.

Also, work on eliminating the wild flinch reaction, this is common for even experienced MAs who are new to full contact. Learn to move subtley to bleed off their power and then follow their technique back in (especially kicks) but use angles to lessen their chance of a counter. This is like "sticking" as read about in so many arts. It is nothing mystical or magical, but requires patience and courage (no flinching).

Learning to block a leg kick is useful, but it is even better to learn how to draw and avoid one. Leg kicks leave people very off balance when they miss or have to pull one back because it crosses the center line so much (if it is committed). An uncommitted kick usually signals a follow up combo technique.

Hector is right about learning the rules.

Also, what level of experience will you be fighting in? If you don't have an experienced coach/instructor, then six months is going to be a lot shorter than you think. However, if it is just for experience, no worries.

[tamashi]

This may be a useful read for you:
http://www.kyokushin.ca/kyokushin/training.html
Check it out, it is long and worth it.
I have no affiliation with the author, but he
makes it availabe to all on his website. good stuff.

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Just wondering, but will it be all Karateka or will it be mixed styles?

Cheers

[spanky11]

Originally posted by tamashi
This may be a useful read for you:
http://www.kyokushin.ca/kyokushin/training.html
Check it out, it is long and worth it.
I have no affiliation with the author, but he
makes it availabe to all on his website. good stuff.

that is a fanastic link for anyone considering entering a knockdown event.

just remember that your first 3 minutes of a full contact fight will probably be the longest in your life, so train 110% in the lead up.

osu

[shotofan]

When I used to train I would pracice 4 5 min rounds. With a 1 min rest and worked up to 30 sec rest. Train harder than is need and you should do fine.

[Cinnabar]

Originally posted by Geoff
I am toying with the idea of entering a full-contact knockdown tournament this year.
I am not exactly what you would call competitive in this area, but I'd like to make a decent showing (i.e. not embarass myself or my teacher) and have a good experience.

Thanks,

Geoff Wingard

There were plenty of good pointers here by other members on things to do.
Let us now mention things not to do in order to avoid embarassment. Stay away from trying to use ineffective techniques like nukite to the solar plexus, simultaneous double punches and rising forearm block.

[shotofan]

And most of all avoid flashy moves. Who cares if it is pretty.
Things like jump kicks, spin kicks and really deep stances. I know spin kicks can cause alot of damage, aka power. But unless he is dazed or is confused I would stick to basic kicks. Front snap kicks, round house kicks or even a axe kick if you do tkd. They are good solid kicks that wont leave you open to much.
But is just from my exp.

[RobertW]

I'll throw in my two cents. We are a full contact knockdown style. All ryukyus to be exact. Mr. Cook is dead on.
However, experience can not be replaced with training and drills. Geoff you are not used to it, and you must experience it. Find a Kyokushin, Enshin, Ashihara, Okinawan Dojo that fights ryukyu full contact, strap on a white belt and train with them for a month. It takes a long time to develop a fighting body.
Kudos on the return to some old school method. I think there is SOME value in ippon or sundome kumite, but it is very valuable to your karate to practice full contact.
I apologise in advance but even the die hards must agree that Mas Oyama WAS quite hardcore. However he produced some of the strongest Karate students ever.
It takes a certain mindset to actually hit as hard asa you can. IMHO the human psyche from birth is not geared this way. You might think you hit this hard, but I assure you you that through the right training you will be able to hit harder.
Just my 3 cents...

[tamashi]

Another thing to consider would be “Semi-Contact”
In this context that means Knockdown fighting, but
with Shin pads and Cloth hand gear. Same essential
rules, but some padding is allowed on hands and feet.
Oh, the other difference is that it is stratified by rank
instead of by weight. so in general there is a novice,
Intermediate, and Advanced division. To read more
on an example, you can go to the following link:
http://www.uskyokushin.com/tournament.htm

The training is pretty much the same regardless if
you are in the Semi or the full Knockdown divisions.

Just a thought

[cross]

To get the best training you should find a school that specialises in this type of training and start working there.

[Pirahna]

Cinnabar,


I was a nidan in goju when i switched to Muay Thai some seventeen years ago so perhaps I may help.


Firstly the time frame to this competiton - you must be realistic with what art you choose and what you can expect to pick up in this time frame. IMO a "contact" karate style is going to expect you to conform to their curriculum and thus may not be the best choice for six months of hard core ring training with one goal in mind - competition. A boxing gym or Thai gym where the sole focus for attending is fight training combined with the wealth of experience in differring rules, technique advantages (which has already been touched on) and variety of "real" sparring partners is all going to be an advantage. I presume that this is not a single bout format but multiple bouts? If so then you are going to have to read your competitors pretty quickly.

Secondly your physical attributes - without knowing you if you are a lighter person then work to your strengths - footwork, footwork and more footwork. Learn to leg check, learn to leg kick but also learn to blend em all - make them miss and leg kick the rear of the leg if their retraction is too slow, leg check them and then fire a kick straight back at them. learn to "build the wall" to blunt attacks that you fail to get out of the way of so that at the least if your opponent has poor technique then you damage the limb that is thrown at you.

Thirdly know the rules and train for the rules.


Hope this helps!