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Omaronim
17th March 2004, 00:46
I thought about it and thought about it and i've concluded that I don't like the whole color ranking system. I'm not sure how many of you have read about the old school martial arts in Japan and the way they ranked students. I really like the whole certificate system. I'm suprised that they even had such a simple yet seemingly effective system. ARRRG

Mekugi
17th March 2004, 00:51
Well,

IMHO part of what makes the "modern martial arts" modern is the ranking system. In fact, you'll find that the old acumen of ranking is a little frustrating for modern use. It can take you several years before even having a rank- then several more years before getting your next. Today that seems a little much, perhaps.

Have you read Mister Draeger's transcripts on the subject? Very good.

It's all Budo!

Omaronim
17th March 2004, 01:30
At least we won't have any little kids running around being black belts (or junior black belts). Of course that is if the whole deal is don't legitimately. Damn phony-ness in martial arts... I'm tired of it.

anyways, could you link me to some info on Draeger's transcripts as I'm sure they are probably in some book?

Mekugi
17th March 2004, 01:41
Geez, I have a copy of a copy...they were originally published in Journal or something - they were originally taken from a tape of one of his lectures. Rats, all that stuff I left at home. Sorry I left you hanging here, I just don't have them at the moment.

-Russ


Originally posted by Omaronim
At least we won't have any little kids running around being black belts (or junior black belts). Of course that is if the whole deal is don't legitimately. Damn phony-ness in martial arts... I'm tired of it.

anyways, could you link me to some info on Draeger's transcripts as I'm sure they are probably in some book?

Walker
17th March 2004, 17:02
Donn F. Draeger Monograph Series No. 2: "Ranking Systems in Japanese Martial Arts: Modern vs Classical;" "Bujutsu and Budo"

"The DFD monographs are transcriptions of lectures presented by Donn Draeger in the late 1970's and early 80's at the University of Hawaii and at seminars in Malaysia. The dual topic monographs comprise between 20 and 40 pages."

http://www.hoplology.com/shop.htm

MikeWilliams
17th March 2004, 19:08
Originally posted by Mekugi
...ranking is a little frustrating for modern use. It can take you several years before even having a rank- then several more years before getting your next.

BJJ still pretty much operates like that: a couple of years at white, then a few more years at blue, then a few more at purple, etc...

Some clubs use a stripe system to show progression while in a grade, but I do like the idea that you can have a good few years in and still 'only' wear a blue belt...

Omaronim
17th March 2004, 20:38
Thanks for all the information.

I guess what I like about the menkyo system is the teacher-student connection. I use to be in TKD (USE to be...) and our I felt like the master hardly knew us students well... but then again he only came down to our dojang for test and such.

Mekugi
18th March 2004, 12:41
Thanks Doug!

Originally posted by Walker
Donn F. Draeger Monograph Series No. 2: "Ranking Systems in Japanese Martial Arts: Modern vs Classical;" "Bujutsu and Budo"

"The DFD monographs are transcriptions of lectures presented by Donn Draeger in the late 1970's and early 80's at the University of Hawaii and at seminars in Malaysia. The dual topic monographs comprise between 20 and 40 pages."

http://www.hoplology.com/shop.htm

sepai 85
18th March 2004, 13:05
In my very limited time in martial arts (very limited), I have seen more problems caused by rank then by anything else which I think is sortove sad, to tell you the truth IMHO we would be better off with out ranks of any kind that includes dan-i ranks (which would solve the problem of kids wearing black belts). There is people who say "well black belt used to me so much more" etc etc ok fine thats understandable....but just because you are a black belt does not mean you have to be able to fight (it is more than that) it is the person that counts not some freaken peice of cloth.... like this has been done over and over and over like why is it people have such a transfiction with rank ? Although I believe the KYU (i say again kyu) and NOT dan ranks are ok for children because it serves as a bench mark for there progress.

I thank you people for your time
simply my opinion with very limited knowledge
with much respect.....

MarkF
19th March 2004, 02:17
I thought about it and thought about it and i've concluded that I don't like the whole color ranking system. I'm not sure how many of you have read about the old school martial arts in Japan and the way they ranked students. I really like the whole certificate system. I'm suprised that they even had such a simple yet seemingly effective system. ARRRG


At seventeen, I can see how all that experience with the dan-i system has left you jaded. Want to do away with grade and just use a dogi and white belt? Don't test, don't get grade, don't do it, period. Going to another system of grading doesn't fix things. Even those of long ago charged for the work and materials that went into makimono/densho/menkyo. The Dan-I system wasn't all that much different from that in the beginning, it was westerners (almost surely the colored belts came from France in the 1950s) who changed that, though the Japanese were not far behind. There were no "belts" per se in the early years, just certificate or "menkyo." It meant the same thing. Later, when Kodokan judo began to get a following (and the keikogi was first used. Actually, uwagi would be more descriptive of the time as there was only the jacket originally made out of canvass). Later a black belt was used to separate the serious student from those who hadn't proved themselves yet, but then, there was no Kyu grade, just mudan/yudan.

Donn Draeger notwithstanding, the above is off the top of my head, but is pretty standard knowledge today thanks to a bunch of people, eg, EJ Harrison, RW Smith, DD, Smith and DD. A new book on Judo in the Pacific Northwest Nikkei communities from 1900-1950 has great information on how it was after leaving Japan, by Joseph R. Svinth.

Belt to indicate rank is far from a budo invention. Take English boxing. Whem do you suppose title belts became all important? Today, there is an over-abundance of them in boxing, sometimes leading to death in the quest for one. You likely won't have that problem, hopefully.


Mark

Mekugi
19th March 2004, 02:41
Originally posted by MarkF
(almost surely the colored belts came from France in the 1950s)

Ehh? Where didya get that? Interesting! Source?

Rogier
23rd March 2004, 13:40
Originally posted by MarkF
Want to do away with grade and just use a dogi and white belt? Don't test, don't get grade, don't do it, period.
Mark

how could anyone disagree with that...

In the end the whole beltcolour thing doesn't mean that much anyway. I've seen enough with their 'black' belt acting like they are god on earth while not being able to do anything. And I've seen people with green belts who made me jealous of the things they could do.

As Mark said just don't test if you've got problems with it. In the end it only matters what you think of yourself and your own level..

S Ford-Powell
23rd March 2004, 14:07
Well, for what it is worth, I think grades do matter! The people who usually don't like them are those who already have them (generally). However, for beginners (I.E. up to 2nd Dan), people use them quite helpfully as benchmarks/short term goals and I don't think that's so bad really. After a few years of dealing with your ego as a "black belt" you grow tired of it, start growing properly again and realize that grades, colours et al really, really don't mean a thing. For example, I can tell you the date, the time and the location when I got 1st dan, But I couldn't tell you the YEAR I got 5th (not even too sure about the decade!!). grades help the inexperienced and unconfident and to tell them grades don't matter can be a bit like telling a child that WWF wrestling is an act! It takes us a long time to realise that what we do is a life time study and that nobody will ever know or be able to do everything! Let's face it, most people give up long before that realisation anyway

MarkF
25th March 2004, 09:53
If your student base is largely young children, that is understandable, but I couldn't give the time or date of any of my steps up the ladder, and I find students who are graded often, tire of it more quickly than those who are not.

This thread began in the karate forum, in case any of you came in after it was moved here, and there are differing standards. Grades are almost uniformally a reward system, a way of saying "thanks" for staying with your training and working so hard. To charge for the opportunity to test, IMO, goes directly against the purpose of it in the first place. As did my teachers, I do not test students, and is probably why my youngest student is thirteen.

Truly, it is an honor system and should be treated as such, no matter the grade. Dispense with testing altogether, and it really can be something to treasure.


Mark

Joseph Svinth
26th March 2004, 05:00
About 1883, Kano Jigoro decided to divide his judo students into two separate groups, ungraded (mudansha) and graded (yudansha). The first students to achieve graded rank (shodan, or first step) were Tomita Tsunejiro and Saigo Shiro. Around 1886 or 1887, Kano’s ungraded judoka began wearing white belts while his graded judoka began wearing black belts. Although Kano apparently left no explanations for why he chose these two colors, perhaps it was color symbolism, as in Japanese metaphysics white represents base metals (e.g., raw materials) while black represents steel (e.g., a relatively finished product). Another possibility is that it was based on the way that Japanese teachers distinguished advanced and beginning athletes in their physical education classes. Or it might simply have been that white belts and colorfast black dye were cheap at the time. In any case, Kano’s ranking system was innovative, as previously Japanese martial art schools had awarded rank using scrolls (menkyo) rather than colored belts. Kano’s precise reasons for introducing belts that did more than keep a jacket shut are also unknown. Possible motivations, however, could have included German sport pedagogy, which urged educators to classify athletes by ability and achievement, and the Japanese honorific language, which does not allow people to easily talk to one another without previously knowing each other’s exact rank and social status. Also, regardless of motivations, the use of color belts in a Japanese setting encouraged wa, or mutual cooperation, as it allowed players to learn and experiment without risking much loss of face. (Explained historian Carlin Barton aptly, although in a different context, "The more anxiously competitive the situation, the more importance attached to victory, the more likelihood of collusion -- of those who risk a loss of status -- in the formation of elaborate status differentiations. The average athlete, for instance, is willing to put the extraordinary one ‘in a class by himself.’ The third-grader is willing and happy to be ‘outclassed’ by the sixth-grader against whom he or she would otherwise be compelled to compete. The more fierce the competition, the more numerous the statuses accepted voluntarily. Clear and distinct differences in class and category can be a relief, allowing one to remove oneself, without loss of face, from an unhappy comparison of skills.")

Judo was made part of school curriculums in 1911, and recent immigrants introduced brown belts into US judo in the mid-1920s. This innovation was one reason that the Seattle Dojo fragmented in 1928 -- adult purists thought it was an awful thing. The Budokwai was also using brown belts during the 1920s.

France's Kawaishi is, as Mark says, generally attributed with developing the rainbow of belt colors you see in the West today. This innovation may date to the 1930s, though, rather than the 1950s, as that was when Kawaishi first started teaching judo in France. For reference, note that there is a newsreel of Kawaishi doing a demo in Paris on 10/02/1938, with the Japanese ambassador as his partner. See http://www.britishpathe.com/ ; the keyword is "jujitsu Paris". Of course, the images are black-and-white, so who knows what color the belts of the students are. That said, the popularity of judo in France is definitely a post-WWII phenomenon.

Joseph Svinth
26th March 2004, 05:08
BTW, belts and such are all part of the commodification of sport.
Commodification of sport is pretty standard fare in classes on sport sociology, as even a quick Google search will show. Anyway, the commodification of sport started in earnest in the 19th century, and today it is so ingrained in the culture that many folks become offended if you don't require special clothes for an activity.

S Ford-Powell
26th March 2004, 10:15
Originally posted by MarkF
If your student base is largely young children, that is understandable, but I couldn't give the time or date of any of my steps up the ladder, and I find students who are graded often, tire of it more quickly than those who are not.

To charge for the opportunity to test, IMO, goes directly against the purpose of it in the first place. As did my teachers, I do not test students, and is probably why my youngest student is thirteen.


Mark

Mark, I don't disagree with much of this to be honest, but I wasn't talking about kids particularly - I don't teach them! And I never have, nor ever will, charge for a grading since I see no place for money in the process of reward for achievement. I maintain that, gradings are useful, not least because people have to cope with their nerves and the pressure they feel and as an indication of progression. Ultimately, they are of course meaningless, but not perhaps to those just starting out - I guess how the process of awarding grades is conducted is what matters most. I know some advanced Karateka who have paid hundreds of pounds to stand in line with dozens of others to be graded for about twenty minutes and found the whole process soul destroying and I have known yellow belt gradings go on for over an hour with only one candidate, who really felt they had achieved something and who's only cost was in effort!

MarkF
26th March 2004, 12:48
Joe-

I actually agree that the innovation began earlier than the 1950s, but the use of different color belts came to the US from France around that time. What I do wish had come with those belts, though, were instructions for tying the obi as Kawaishi tied his. Talking of things "cool" now that would have been something.

In the 1950s with the advent of the Amateur Judo Association (now the USJF) in the US, there still were three colors, two for mudansha, one for yudansha (assuming that most 6-dan or higher wore black as they did/do). The minimum age for those allowed to train in judo in the US under under the AJA in the early fifties was twenty-one, later twenty, then eighteen by the late 1950s or early sixties. So when other, multi-color belts did come to widespread use was probably when children became eligible to train and play. That seems logical to me, anyway.

Even in the early 1960s, I don't recall any adult using a belt other than white, brown, or black, but children were issued other colors for student grade, seemingly to mark them as juniors. It really doesn't make any sense, but as the colors in use today are so far away from the number of colors then, that's the only conclusion to which I can come. Even ikkyu wore a violet or purple colored belt under a certain age while an adult of that student grade wore a brown belt (the AJA became the JBBF by that time, as well).

At shiai, the common colors used by juniors were white, green, and purple in that order.
*******

Hi, Simon,

I have friends who say "I don't do kids" and just don't want to be baby-sitters. I never sought to refuse or limit the minimum age to thirteen, it just seems to have worked out that way. I do see the benefits, however. That, and I've found I can't handle more than a certain number of students at any given time.

As to testing, I have never seen a benefit. Yes, a student pays for the obi (unless he dyes it), but other than that the reason for regular testing becomes obvious and I just can't go there.

S Ford-Powell
26th March 2004, 13:28
well we'll have to agree to disagree on the benefits of testing Mark, that is a discussion best shared over a few beers I think. The concept of paying for recognition of standards, however is a concept that we both clearly dislike.

Cheers

DustyMars
26th March 2004, 14:32
Originally posted by MarkF
Joe-

I actually agree that the innovation began earlier than the 1950s, but the use of different color belts came to the US from France around that time. What I do wish had come with those belts, though, were instructions for tying the obi as Kawaishi tied his. Talking of things "cool" now that would have been something.

In the 1950s with the advent of the Amateur Judo Association (now the USJF) in the US, there still were three colors, two for mudansha, one for yudansha (assuming that most 6-dan or higher wore black as they did/do). The minimum age for those allowed to train in judo in the US under under the AJA in the early fifties was twenty-one, later twenty, then eighteen by the late 1950s or early sixties. So when other, multi-color belts did come to widespread use was probably when children became eligible to train and play. That seems logical to me, anyway.

Even in the early 1960s, I don't recall any adult using a belt other than white, brown, or black, but children were issued other colors for student grade, seemingly to mark them as juniors. It really doesn't make any sense, but as the colors in use today are so far away from the number of colors then, that's the only conclusion to which I can come. Even ikkyu wore a violet or purple colored belt under a certain age while an adult of that student grade wore a brown belt (the AJA became the JBBF by that time, as well).

At shiai, the common colors used by juniors were white, green, and purple in that order.
*******

Hi, Simon,

I have friends who say "I don't do kids" and just don't want to be baby-sitters. I never sought to refuse or limit the minimum age to thirteen, it just seems to have worked out that way. I do see the benefits, however. That, and I've found I can't handle more than a certain number of students at any given time.

As to testing, I have never seen a benefit. Yes, a student pays for the obi (unless he dyes it), but other than that the reason for regular testing becomes obvious and I just can't go there.

I think I was ikkyu when someone handed me down their brown belt and I wore it only a few months. Up until then we wore white belts then black at the time we won shodan. Back in the States they started wearing white, green and brown in the kyu ranks, but memory is foggy on the details of the colors.

MarkF
29th March 2004, 05:54
well we'll have to agree to disagree...

OK, this is fine with me. There have been so many ways to recognize the contribution to judo over the years that, in effect, everyone does test, they just go through it differently, based on the instructor's (and sanctioning body, if any) experience.


Since 1987, I have graded two to shodan, for two reasons: They deserved it, and two, I needed the help.;) Once either one was ready to instruct, it allowed me to hold a class even if I couldn't make it or had to be late, usually because of work.

Sorry, "The Sopranos" is one, so I can't write my usual rants and raves. I'm sure you are very sad about that.:rolleyes:


Mark

Blackwood
29th March 2004, 12:24
'If memory serves me correctly' one of the reasons the belt system was created was to meet the requirements for entrance into the Japanese system, that there had to be some method of grading. I'll have to see if I can find the source of that memory and verify it.

In teaching, I find that one of the reasons for colored belts is for the benefit of the instructors. Instead of having a few key students, instructors may face a sea of dozens of faces, few of them with names associated with them. It provides a quick visual method of dividing the class up into groups to work on particular skills. Even in the adult classes, a quick glance at the range of colors in attendance can totally change the lesson plan. In the last month on consecutive Saturdays I've had a class that I taught as the senior and a class where I was the junior ranked individual. Two very different concentrations.