Introductions

[Scars Unseen]

From my postings in the general forum I've come to the decision that if I get posted in Japan I will probably want to study a Koryu. I've read that in many dojos the instructor will not admit a student without an introduction. So, still learning about Japanese culure, I find myself with many questions.

For one, who does one talk to about this sort of thing? Does it mean that I must persue training elsewhere before I would be accepted at a Japanese dojo? Should I get to know some of the students at the dojos? And what about the ethics about this sort of thing? I want to join x dojo so I talk to x person, which seems to me like I'm using the guy. but if I do join the dojo, I'd want to get to know him anyway, so maybe I'm not.

This is one of the more daunting aspects of going to Japan for me, because I'm bad enough at networking in the States, and while I was raised to be polite and do enjoy talking to people I've always had a tenedency to be a recluse. I would really appreciate any advice you people can give here.

[renfield_kuroda]

Like anything anywhere, there are generalizations, and a million exceptions/variations.

You want to study Mugairyu Iaihyodo, or Uchidaryu tanjo, or Shindomusoryu jo? Come on by and you can start right there.

Depends what you want to do, and where, and who's teaching it, and how much money you have, and how much experience you have/don't have, and who you know...

But in general the way you do it is the way you're doing it: you start asking around.
BTW, without Japanese, studying most koryu in Japan will be incredibly difficult.
And without a job or money, living in Japan will be no easier.

Regards,

r e n

[Scars Unseen]

Well, I'm planning on starting Japanese lessons a couple of months prior to leaving and continuing lessons after that. As far as job/money goes, got it covered. I'll be there as a crew chief(actually, I think I start as an apprentice) for the US Air Force.

[Scars Unseen]

Oh, and is Mugairyu Iaihyodo kenjutsu only or does in also incorporate unarmed attacks as well?

[glad2bhere]

Maybe I am off-base on this but I always got the impression the Koryo arts were pretty selective about accepting people. Seems like you would need to wait until you got to Japan and actually were able to establish connection with folks in a particular area. I never got the impression that such training was just a matter of locating a school and showing up with sufficient funds. Otherwise it begins to sound like someone coming to the US and saying that they couldn't make up their mind about where to go to school --- Harvard, Columbia or Yale. Anyone?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Scars Unseen]

Yes, thus the topic of this post.

[Joseph Svinth]

The old-fashioned way is to enroll at the local judo or kendo club. Get your basics down, keep your eyes and ears open, and pretty soon you should know have a good idea who is respected in the community and who is not. Then, you try to hook up.

[Adam Young]

Otherwise it begins to sound like someone coming to the US and saying that they couldn't make up their mind about where to go to school --- Harvard, Columbia or Yale. What is wrong with this?

[Joel Simmons]

Aloha,

Joseph hit the nail on the head. You should join a martial arts club where they will be more willing to accept you outright. Make some friends and practice the basics. Once you've been there for a while you might be invited to come watch a practice by someone, or maybe you'll be introduced via a friend of a friend type of thing.

Adam - Harvard, Columbia and Yale are pretty selective schools. You can't just decide to go there without going through their selection process. He's relating this to the way some koryu select their students.

[glad2bhere]

Dear Joe:

This isn't exactly what the original question was, but it raised a question in my mind.

Do Koryo martial arts still require "blood oaths" aka Keppan (sp)?
I am not asking so much from the standpoint of joining such an organization, but more from the view of assuming an on-going committment or responsibility to the Ryu. I understood this is very different than just "signing-up" and then moving on to something else later. We don't have this in the Korean arts, and I don't hear much about it when people discuss these traditional arts. Is this still done?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Walker]

Originally posted by glad2bhere
Do Koryo martial arts still require "blood oaths" aka Keppan (sp)?
I am not asking so much from the standpoint of joining such an organization, but more from the view of assuming an on-going committment or responsibility to the Ryu. I understood this is very different than just "signing-up" and then moving on to something else later. We don't have this in the Korean arts, and I don't hear much about it when people discuss these traditional arts. Is this still done?Yes.

See Ellis' book Old School for a discussion.

[glad2bhere]

Much thanks. You're also the third person I know to recommend that book. I usually take that as a sign that its worth adding to my library. Thanks again.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[renfield_kuroda]

Originally posted by Scars Unseen
Oh, and is Mugairyu Iaihyodo kenjutsu only or does in also incorporate unarmed attacks as well?

Mugairyu Iaihyodo entails iai and kenjutsu techniques with both long and short sword. There are no open-handed techniques.

However our organization NPO Hougyoku-kai (a Japanese Non-Profit Organization dedicated to traditional martial arts) oversees Mugairyu Iaihyodo as well as Shitoryu karate, Uchidaryu tanjo, Shindomusoryu jo, Houshouryu sai, and aikido. So many of us cross-train in several arts.

Also, we do not require keppan; anyone can join and start learning the basics (advancing to higher levels is another thing entirely.)

Regards,

r e n

[George Kohler]

Originally posted by glad2bhere
I usually take that as a sign that its worth adding to my library.

Yes, it is a great book to have for your library.

[hyaku]

In Japan there are lot's of thing we do by introduction. Who you know goes a long way.

I have a German student here on an exchange scheme who "announced" what he wished to do when he arrived. He of course gets "introduced" a lot. But he always complains that his biggest problem is not enough exercise.

Problem is he is one of these guys that does not stick anything long. He did basketball but complains he has to watch too long, despite best efforts to explain that Mitori-geiko and just participating is essential over here.

He got introduced to a karate club and complains his feet are "too cold". Now he is asking me too introduce him to sword arts.

This is perhaps an isolated case. But needless to say bearing this in mind there is always aprehension in introducing someone to a respected ryu. It certainly helps if you do some intensive groundwork first to get an idea of what you are letting yourself in for and know that in all honesty you will not be wasting your teachers time.

I would not even let anybody in the Kendojo door. We have a yearly tight schedule of turning out high level kendoka. Sadly there is no time for beginers. But there are plenty of private clubs around if you look.

Getting introduced based on previous experience goes a long way. "I think" does not always work. As the say, "You know what thought did"?

[Scars Unseen]

Thanks for all the informative responces, everyone.


Originally posted by renfield_kuroda
Mugairyu Iaihyodo entails iai and kenjutsu techniques with both long and short sword. There are no open-handed techniques.

However our organization NPO Hougyoku-kai (a Japanese Non-Profit Organization dedicated to traditional martial arts) oversees Mugairyu Iaihyodo as well as Shitoryu karate, Uchidaryu tanjo, Shindomusoryu jo, Houshouryu sai, and aikido. So many of us cross-train in several arts.

Sounds interesting. I'll be sure to check it out if I get to Japan.


Originally posted by hyaku
In Japan there are lot's of thing we do by introduction. Who you know goes a long way.

I have a German student here on an exchange scheme...

This is perhaps an isolated case. But needless to say bearing this in mind there is always aprehension in introducing someone to a respected ryu. It certainly helps if you do some intensive groundwork first to get an idea of what you are letting yourself in for and know that in all honesty you will not be wasting your teachers time.

Again, thanks. I was actually planning on spending upwards of 6 months getting used to life in Japan, checking out what's available, etc. before I actually tried to join a dojo. I'm definately not up for wasting my or anyone else's time by jumping into something I'm not certain of. Still, I'd like to get as much foreknowlege as possible, so I don't feel completely overwhelmed upon arrival.

[hyaku]

There's lot about if you look for it.

Log on and let us know how you fare

Very best of luck.

[glad2bhere]

"......Problem is he is one of these guys that does not stick anything long. He did basketball but complains he has to watch too long, despite best efforts to explain that Mitori-geiko and just participating is essential over here......"

I think this may be the bain of many traditional MA, whether Japanese or not. There is a certain romance with being able to say one has trained in a traditional art, but it is, in fact, a whole different take on things and I don't know that the typical Westerner is prepared for, or appreciates this. As I write this I am thinking of the vast number of posts and dialogues that argue about the efficacy of studying kata, performing the same innane and simplistic drills ad nauseum, and adhering to anachronistic pecking orders. To my way of thinking it is these very activities that produce the sorts of solid characters which are the back-bone of traditional arts. Yet, these are the very points which most Westerners seem to take issue with. In some ways it would be, I think, like saying one wishes to be a prestigious brain surgeon, but takes exception to having to study Anatomy. For myself, this hits home quite a bit as, up until about 6 months ago I had some 30 private students. Without going into detail, I must report that I came to the realization that I was indulging these folks who found not a few occasions to complain about having to learn various aspects of Hapkido. Where they ever got the idea that they could cherry-pick what they wanted to learn or how they wanted to learn it is beyond me. I know here in the States instructors often pander to their students in order to keep enrollment up. From all that I understand about traditional JMA such an approach simply doesn't enter into the picture.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[MarkF]

Where they ever got the idea that they could cherry-pick what they wanted to learn or how they wanted to learn it is beyond me. I know here in the States instructors often pander to their students in order to keep enrollment up. From all that I understand about traditional JMA such an approach simply doesn't enter into the picture.



Where? From you charging and they pay. Sometimes the amount charged is directly related to what, exactly these types demand, and demand they do. As an ESL teacher in a foreign country working in a private school, the students demanded that I teach at their level, speed, hold back everyone until they understood, and if not, they left or complained. You wont make everyone happy, not even the majority most times.

It isn't different in anything in which a teacher-student relationship exists. Unfortunately, money is the primary motivation, and they want it their way. OTOH, a fee IS necessary for people to recognize that a thing or service has value.

While your service certainly has value, it certainly took me quite a while to come to an agreement that generally satisfied students as to what they get from me and what I expect from them. I'm completely non-profit (my sponsors pay a stipend monthly, but it goes back into the program), but I still receive calls from potential students who start the conversation with "this is what I want." I generally recommend another dojo and I limit my student base.

It seems to work, but even Uyeshiba M. was asked the same questions, and he also found middle ground, but still, he could judge who would be around in six months and who wouldn't be.
******

I don't know that Joe wasn't answering the original question. From people who are accepted at the TSKSR Hombu dojo, they do recommend some time in a more mainstream budo such as judo or kendo, or even karate, plus a full-time job not MA related, and a decent knowledge of Japanese.

This doesn't seem out of line, either, though some do make some work harder than others to be considered for admission to the ryu. There are some similar things, and, as stated above, at least as many exceptions. A letter, or other form of introduction, depending on the ryu one wishes to study (which is no guarantee that you will, but patience and hard work usually pay dividends). Have a backup just in case. More than one is even better.


Mark

[glad2bhere]

Dear Mark:

I know EXACTLY what you mean. I very regularly have students who come to me and want to learn cane, or want to learn sword (both Dan-level curriculum) and have no interest in learning the fundamental material first. Almost every call I get starts with "What do your classes cost?" as though this is the sole measure of what I have to share. I had a call from a woman who reported having Hapkido experience and was apparently miffed that I offered nothing for children as she had a child who she wanted to get started. I no longer accept private students for this very reason choosing instead to mentor a Hapkido club at the local junior college and teaching a survey course there one night a week.

It is a very Western attitude to believe that the "person with the gold makes the rules". It is a very Eastern attitude that there is something greater than ourselves. I guess I am sitting at the intersect of these two beliefs and my challenge is to do my best to reconcile these beliefs as best I can. I am sure something has to give, but I work to make sure that the integrity of my art isn't it. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Joseph Svinth]

Bruce --

My limited exposure to koryu suggests that Meik Skoss is not being obtuse when he says, "It's case-by-case." Some do, most don't.

As for the introductions, it's mostly the teacher and/or seniors deciding if this is somebody who will fit their corporate model. The koryu dojo is no more a meritocracy than is, say, the political leadership of the United States.